Cluely Raises $15 Million From a16z | Roy Lee, Founder & CEO

[00:00] Roy Lee, welcome to Sorcery. I just want to congratulate you on this big funding announcement. Right now, revenue timelines are so compressed. If you don't believe that you yourself can get to 100 mil ARR in the next year, you don't have to do it. Ever worried about like, oh, the next round. Think about your current company. You need more money right now. Like, bro, these rounds are closing in like hours. Virality, really important, but it means nothing if you can't do it consistently. There is no work-life balance. Your entire life is clueling and your entire work is clueling. [00:24] Roller coaster of an answer, but we love that. Founder mode. Me versus Elon versus Sam, and we're all going to be competing for the title of Conqueror of the Universe. [00:33] So Roy. Yep. [00:34] We're here for some big news. Yeah. [00:37] You just raise... [00:39] update. [00:40] Next round. [00:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. [00:43] Who did you raise from and how much was there? [00:46] We did Pick Through Mill, led by Angriest. [00:50] They bigger out. [00:51] How did you get to work with them? [00:53] of the process and [00:54] I moved to California and like within a week or two, the guys pulled up the office and wanted to pop. [00:59] Um. [01:00] which he abdance that they do not have money. [01:03] Farrell, I think it's a 1-8. [01:05] and just happen. I think of being like sort of the way that you had to [01:10] The only way you will get significant outfits in part time right now is by granite. [01:14] We're going to have a lot to talk about in this whole, let's start with this. [01:18] But I can't wait to understand... [01:21] The line in which your investors [01:24] feel comfortable investing in. [01:26] company like yours, like constantly going after your stunts. Yeah. [01:29] I think the actual bet is on our ability to do it, which I think everyone has no doubt in.

[01:35] But truly, I think everyone recognizes that I have the ability to get a lot of eyeballs onto Thule.com. [01:41] The only thing that people are worried about is... [01:45] Can he build enough sauce to like actually build a single company underneath? [01:49] But if the poor bad data that distribution is most important being then [01:52] Obviously, we're the best distributing in the world right now, at least in the early stage. And I think this is the actual bet that's being made. [02:00] Distribution is one that, at the end, is more important than anything. Technology could work backwards. You don't have distribution. You don't have a sustainable business. Have you gotten any pushback from the investors on some of your business yet? [02:12] I care, but um... [02:14] Generally, they only invested in me because they knew that I would do clean shit. That wanted to fit into it. [02:18] and they believed in the ability for that to convert. I think sorcery was the first one to break your viral launch. Um... [02:27] I saw this trickling throughout media, like days after. It's actually insane how slow legacy media is. It's insane. But right after, the day after, I posted in Sorcery, [02:41] Cluey's mega viral launch and it had about 7 million views at the time. Since then, I think you've double or maybe tripled that. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. [02:50] It's pretty insane. - Yeah, I mean, I was not expecting it to go that viral. I had my hopes for like two to three million impressions. [02:56] Like to be honest, like literally the hour before we launched, we were heavily debating, do we even launch, do we just push back because we weren't happy with the editing. [03:03] I think like everything is just a lesson of just like, like, like fucking swing, swing big. What are your general frameworks for fundraising? How do you think about it? Yeah, I think, um,

[03:13] On the founder front right now, I think if ever you're worried about like a down round or not being able to raise more in the future, like you're ever worried about, oh, I'm not going to raise as much this time so I can raise more next round. Like, I think you're making the wrong decision. [03:26] Right now, revenue timelines are so compressed. If you don't believe that you yourself can get to 100 mil ARR in the next year... [03:32] then you should just, just don't fucking build a company because you don't have the balls to do it. You need a swing big at every moment. Like you don't know where your company is going to be in three months. And if you are like meant to make it and your product is like good, then you will be somewhere crazy in three months. And if you're ever worried about like, oh, the next round, like, bro, like, like, like think about your current round, think about your current company. You need more money right now. Just a swing big. And I think on the investor front, there's nothing that pisses me off more than, um, [03:56] when like some investor wants to talk to me, they send me an email like, yo, like I'm trying to talk. And then they fucking loop in their assistant to schedule some time. Like bro, these rounds are closing in like hours. Like it's not, you don't have two weeks to like schedule some time. If you want to talk to the hottest guy or you want to talk to the hottest startup, then you need to like fucking book time ASAP. And it needs to be you. Like there's nothing that turns, like I can, if you've done this, [04:16] you're probably not getting any allocation because you've, like, ticked me off because you've just told me I do not find you important enough. I need my assistant from the fucking Philippines to, like, schedule a time with you because I don't have the... Like, you're not high enough on my priority list. Like, okay, bet. Like, you're not getting allocation. The round closed two hours ago, and... [04:33] Yeah, I think investors need to move faster. There's some people who have expressed [04:38] discontent that not being able to get into harder rounds is like bro you should have moved faster [04:42] - Thank you. [04:43] Okay.

[04:44] Wow. [04:45] That's my thoughts on fundraising. Rollercoaster of an answer. But we love that. Founder mode. [04:52] In terms of fundraising in general, you started the company at Columbia. Yeah. Okay, so how did you get the idea to come to Silicon Valley and actually pursue this full time? [05:02] It was sort of like I burned every other bridge except building a company. [05:06] Like, it all started with... [05:08] me going to Columbia deciding I'm gonna go build a company. Like the first day I came there during orientation week, I was asking every smart looking fucker I saw, like, hey, do you wanna build a company with me? Do you wanna build a company with me? And out of maybe like 50 people, there's really only one person that said yes. And that was Neil, who's my current co-founder. And we started hacking on a bunch of things and like just nothing was working. Like I was here at Founders Inc. like a couple months back and we were working on this [05:29] AI sales agent for liquor distributors. And it was like the most bullshit like YC, B2B, talk to your customers idea. It was so stupid, I had nothing to do with it. [05:37] Um, like, like, like, it had nothing to do with me as a founder, uh, just wasn't working. And the only thing that ever worked was this really shitty LinkedIn demo we made one day, uh, that had 600,000 views and it was for a tool called interview coder. And like the second it went viral, like it sort of captured my heart, but it was, it was like the most dangerous, like, this is like the cheating tool. We sort of saw the vision for the marketing. We said, we knew if we use this for a bunch of Amazon, like, like, [06:00] FAANG interviews and got the offer, then this will go super viral, but we didn't have the balls to do it. [06:04] Until everything stopped working and at a certain point, you know, I'm sitting there with like a 2.3 GPA, my counselor's on my ass and I'm like, okay, you know what? Like, [06:11] Like, let's go revisit the one thing that made me excited. That was the interview coder. So I doubled down. I did all the marketing shit that I planned on doing, and it went super viral. And after a certain point, I mean, I built this cheating tool. I get kicked out of school. I get blacklisted from Amazon. I'm like, what can I do but fucking raise a round and go to California?

[06:27] Like there's, I burned every other bridge except this, and now this is like the one path that's left for me. [06:33] The dream. Bro, it's like the sickest path in the world. Yes, like who doesn't want to be out there building companies? Yeah, I think if you're like saving your... I don't know, like saving your time, hoping like, oh, maybe I'll get acquired. Like maybe I'll go work at Big Tech one day. Like, bro, just... [06:46] Just quit, bro. Just quit. Were you at all considering working in big tech? [06:50] Not for the past, I want to say maybe like a year and a half. Okay. And you're how old now? I'm 21. You're 21. Okay. Okay. [06:58] Like 21 and nine months. So I have like three months left before I'm the same age as the McCourt guys. So you're not 21. I am 21. Oh. 21 and nine months. And nine months. And nine months. Okay. Okay. I got it. [07:08] Do you feel pressure in this cohort of young founders that are... [07:13] unlocking AI growth, [07:16] Like, what is the scenario there? Because like even in your fundraising, [07:22] in your fundraising experience, you're talking like, you know, I've got so much demand, like, why aren't people responding faster? Like, [07:29] What is the actual experience on the ground as one of these really young AI companies? [07:34] I mean, of course, like, I look at the Cursor guys, like Michael, like, damn, this guy's killing it. I look at the Mercore guys, Brendan is killing it, and it... [07:43] I'm extremely competitive. It's the reason why I'm building companies and when I see them, [07:47] my age, just a little bit older than me, and they're doing bigger things than me, it just gets that dog in me riled up. I need to see myself at the top. My ultimate dream, and I think this is almost inevitably going to happen, is all companies will converge into one, two, maybe three super companies, and end of the line, in maybe 50 years, it'll be me versus Elon versus Sam, and we're all going to be competing for the title of conqueror of the universe. And if I get there, it starts with me beating all the other kids my age. So of course, of course I feel competitive.

[08:16] Right. [08:16] And going back into Cluelay, like I want to go deep. [08:20] I really want to understand the product and what you're building. So could you just share what Clueli is? [08:25] Yeah, Cluey is a desktop app that shows up as a translucent screen overlay. It sees your screen and it hears your audio. So it's given a lot more context than say, Chachubt.com. [08:36] It's built on the thesis that [08:39] The models will get multimodal one day. [08:41] And when you have super intelligence and you trap it inside a chatbot, it's fundamentally extremely limiting. How many times a day do you screenshot something, paste it in chatGPT and then ask about it? Like a lot. So much to the point where you shouldn't actually have to do that. Like the chatbot is obviously the wrong interface. [08:56] what is the correct interface? I think Apple is exploring, like every single smart glass company, Apple, like they're exploring the idea of AI integrated in your life. And what this looks like for them is like liquid glass, like a translucent overlay. I think everybody's approaching this, [09:09] and understand that this is the UX of the future. It's just a land grab to see who can capture it first. [09:15] But why is that the UX of the future? Yeah. You don't want a separate app because AI should not feel like a... [09:23] like a separate window. It's not a separate window. It should feel like a seamless integration into everything you're doing. It should feel like an overlay. It should work. [09:32] You shouldn't have to go to your workflow, go to another AI app, and then go back to your workflow. This is the exact problem that Cursor solved. And they ended up making like billions and billions of dollars. [09:42] What you want to do is you want to have AI integrated inside your workflow, not just one workflow, but every workflow. And it is inevitable that the models will get intelligent enough to do this. When they do, like what does it actually look like to have a seamless integrated AI? I think right now we're the closest UX out there.

[09:56] When you first launched, you launched as Cheat On Everything. Is the language still the same for that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the ultimate cheating tool. Like, this is a significant productivity unlock to the point where it feels like cheating. And still, we are the tool that lets you use AI without anybody else knowing. We're still invisible to screen share. We still have all our undetectability features and... [10:16] This is like a... [10:18] This is a societal change that we're promoting here. [10:22] Um, [10:23] everyone is going to feel like people using AI are cheating. Like already teachers are out there saying like, "Yo, you can't use AI on your essays. "You can't use AI on your assignments." They think it's cheating because it's a, [10:31] in reality, it leverages you to do so much more than what you previously could. And as a result, every assignment, exam, quiz... [10:37] uh, structure is pretty much outdated. And, uh, as a result, oh, let's just ban it cause it's cheating. Like, like, like, obviously this is in the future. Uh, we all need to get like, get with the time and embrace it. And, um, I think cheat on everything is like a, it's, it's sort of a marketing stunt, but it's sort of real. This is how the world is going to look at it. And, um, it's inevitable. They will see us as the cheating tool. [10:56] Until they don't, then we should just fucking embrace it and use it for the marketing benefits that it provides. What are the most popular use cases? [11:03] Yeah, I mean, obviously a lot of people are using this in interviews, but the actual ability- Are you using it right now? Me? Well, I'm here in person with you, so I don't have a computer. But if I did, yes, I'd be using it right now. The key thing that this lets you do, that pretty much no other tool in the market lets you do, is have AI running an interview or a meeting and command enter, and it'll just feed you information that it thinks you should know. The core technology is pretty akin to just

[11:29] give it the transcript of... [11:32] the meeting and ask, have AI ask and ask it like, [11:35] What is the information that this person needs at this time? And this is something that pretty much no other tool in the market lets you do. So if I'm doing a sales call with you, I'm trying to sell a product, you ask me something, and I'm a non-technical sales rep, so I have no idea what the fuck a rate limit is, just command enter and it'll just tell me every technical concept term that I need to know. [11:54] If you're ever asking me a question, let's say this was virtual and I did have my computer open. Every single question you ask me, I just command enter and it just... [12:01] Tell me what to say. [12:02] The design is actually quite good. Thank you. I complimented you on this earlier, and the liquid glass is actually pretty funny. But how did you get the inspiration for that design? Yeah. [12:13] Yeah, I mean everything like, clearly right now looks very similar to what Interview Coder looked like. And Interview Coder, I literally spent like two months like autistically trying to figure out what is the best overlay that I could do so that an interviewer is not going to know that I'm using AI. And it starts with dropping the opacity because [12:28] Well, what InterviewCoder does is that it gives you a code answer. And you want to have that code right on top of your code editor so that you can write code and see what the answer is side by side. So it needs to be translucent because if it's opaque, then you can't fucking see what you're writing. You can't see the work that you're doing. But I mean, this concept applies one to one with every other workflow. You don't want AI to completely cover up the thing that you're doing. You want it to integrate seamlessly, hence why it's translucent. How did you build out the product on the technical side? [12:55] Yeah, well, the... [12:57] We built InterviewCoder knowing that there were other tools like InterviewCoder. We just thought there were some UX things that they got wrong, and obviously the marketing they got extremely wrong. It's a desktop app that has a React front end.

[13:11] The backend is just Cloudflare workers. It's just like serverless workers that are deployed on edge. And... [13:17] Right now, our API, like we're using, [13:19] Chachpt, but eventually with all the information that we have, we're probably going to fine-tune our own models, and for some of our enterprise clients, we're probably going to just... [13:27] host open source models for them to use. That's completely private. They own all the data and everything. [13:32] the technology is like [13:35] For transcription, we use Deepgram, which as far as I understand is like state-of-the-art transcription. It's super fast for speech to text. [13:44] for seeing your screen. [13:46] We've played around with a few things, and we think the most accurate thing is just taking a screenshot every time you prompt AI to do something. This captures the 80-20 of use cases. [13:55] Um, [13:55] Ultimately, the models will get to a point where you can just pass in, say, like a 30-minute screen recording or even like a two-hour long screen recording, and it can just reason over everything and just give you exactly what information you need at the last second of the screen recording. But in reality, the models aren't there yet, so this is sort of the workaround. This is like the biggest technical challenge we solve is the context stitching. How can you get screen recording plus audio plus system prompt and stitch them all together to get like a fast and accurate response? Yeah. [14:19] That's our biggest technical challenge, but that's how we're getting around it right now. - How do you think about security? - Security? I mean, of course, the big question everybody's sitting on their ass looking for is like, "Hey, Ken Roy, [14:33] with his crazy reputation, like get some people to start trusting him. If I can, then all of a sudden, my marketing is like the most amazing thing in the world. And if I can't, then like, ah, fuck another viral stunt that just was like a relic of the past.

[14:44] So to that end, we take security pretty seriously. We're in observation for SOC 2 ISO and we're hiring a bunch of people to do like strict audits, keep our data super secure. And I think as soon as the narrative changes once, then... [14:58] Like, we win. [14:59] Who exactly are your current customers? Who's using this? Yeah, there's a lot of people who are using it for sales and call centers. I think this is the most interesting use case. And I think most obvious use case is call centers. There really is no tool that will just [15:14] be able to understand the decision tree of all the objections that like a customer service rep might be asked and then just feed them the answer. And as it stands, like AI agents that are standalone, they can't do the entire work of a customer support rep. So you still need a human in the flow, human in the loop, but you also want the human to have answers fed to it. And right now there's just nothing that feeds an answer to a human without anybody else knowing, except us. And I think this is like the actual stickiest use case. [15:44] A lot of people using it for curiosity in meetings. [15:47] It doesn't work super well until you personalize it, meaning you give the context about who you are, what you do. There's things that we're doing to try and get around this, but... [15:56] Customer support, sales calls seems to be the stickiest use case. And in terms of the band of types of customers, I've heard you have some enterprise customers now. Is it mostly consumer? What's the typical... [16:08] uh demographic yeah right now we make more money off enterprise than consumer which is pretty crazy

[16:15] But I think it's because we're still warming up the marketing for consumer. And they're larger customers than consumers are. [16:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The contracts are like seven figures. [16:25] Yeah, and I'm sure what is the pricing on the consumer side? Consumer side, we did $20 a month subscription and $100 annual. And for enterprise, $10. [16:34] You just got to talk to sales to figure it out. Okay. We'll talk to sales. Yeah. Given that, like, could you just break down the business model a little bit more? Like, what is it today and what do you think it's going to evolve to? [16:46] I think subscription based model is like pretty obviously just where we're going to be. Maybe we'll have like a lifetime subscription. Maybe we'll A-B test price to see what's stickiest. But generally this feels like the status quo for a useful nifty tool like this is $20 a month, $100 a year. So we're probably just going to stick with this for a while. [17:07] Yeah, I can't imagine that the pricing is going to change at all. Maybe it turns out we discover some new thing that's like 10 times as computationally inefficient. [17:16] But even then, I don't actually think we'll change the model at all. We'll just raise more money and just... [17:20] like be less profitable than you are now. [17:22] You guys are profitable. Yeah, very much so. [17:25] You post this a lot. Yeah. You're very much so profitable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so what does that mean? How did you get to profitability so fast? Yeah. [17:33] i mean we have like traditional sass margins like when i started interview coder it was like just me and neil and we didn't have any employees and we didn't pay ourselves like the first dollar we made was a dollar profit [17:43] traditional SaaS market, like, we have, like, like, fucking, like, what, 1% of costs. Go to, like, the APIs that we use, and that's it. Like, maybe some hosting, but it's an Electron app that runs locally, so it's not even like we pay for

[17:54] significant hosting fees there too. All we have to pay for is like the free backend cloud provider for our API and the actual APIs that we use. So it's like fucking like three cents per user. So since day one, we've been profitable and the growth has just been so fast. Like InterviewCoder, before we hired anyone, hit like three mil ARR and then... [18:16] And then we started hiring people. So, like, of course, like, we have, like, fucking, like, $3 million. Like, we can hire 10 engineers and it'll still be profitable. So, like, as it stands, we are unable to hire faster than we are making money. And we're paying a lot, too. How do you manage the burn and the scale? I feel like burn doesn't fucking matter. Like, if you just make more money. Like, the revenue timelines are so fucking crazy. If you're a founder and you spend 10 hours thinking about burn and, like, cutting costs, that's 10 hours you didn't spend about making product and, like, making product decisions and making your product better and, like, growing your company. [18:46] Thank you. [18:46] Like right now, we will literally spend like $50,000 a month on door dashing random food, just so we like spend more time, like spend less time cooking because everyone is more efficient and we can like grow the product faster that way. [18:55] Like, I do not care about the money. [18:57] Well, [18:59] Yeah. [19:00] - Sorcery is sponsored by Brex and someone that you're super fan of, I know Cluley's a big fan. - Of course. - But you know, they're all about spending smarter and moving faster. Is that your playbook? [19:10] I don't think you have to spend smart. I think you like spend big, spend big, move big, make big moves. Like at every point, just be risky. [19:19] Are you saying that you are maximizing their rewards? Of course, bro. I use Brex for everything. I use as much of their rewards as possible. Brex has been a lifesaver. There's no other company that would let us spend $50,000 a month on food.

[19:31] I also saw that one of your employees just bought a $10,000 suit. [19:36] A lot of those specific numbers are fake, but yeah, we spend a lot of money on the racks. Well, I wanted to gift you with something, and so we got you... [19:45] A gold card. Oh, my God. That's amazing. Yeah. Is this for me? Mm-hmm. Now you can spend all your money on that. Are you serious? Yeah. Well, they were mentioning that we're going to be on the gold card soon, but I still have the little black plastic. Yeah. [19:57] I'll show this is... [20:00] This is the car that I still have that I spend [20:03] Probably close to $500,000 a month. Yeah, that's about like a Siri. That's a seed card. Seed card. That's what I'm saying. They haven't realized. We didn't get the upgrade yet. We will soon. [20:12] Sorcery is brought to you by Brex, the financial stack trusted by more than 30,000 companies, including one in three venture-backed startups in the U.S. Nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. Brex is literally built to help founders avoid that. Unlike traditional banks that let your money sit idle, chipping away at it with fees, Brex is designed to help you spend smarter and move faster. [20:42] You can send and receive money globally at lightning speeds, get 20 times the standard FDIC coverage through their partner banks, and even high yield from day one. With same day and even same hour liquidity, access your funds anytime. Companies like Scale AI, DoorDash, Service Titan, HIMS, Anthropic, Flexport, Robinhood, and Plaid trust and use Brex.

[21:12] dot com slash sorcery. [21:16] To switch to the hot topic that I'm sure lots of people really want to hear about, Roy. Yep. [21:23] *sniff* [21:24] Please. [21:26] Explain to me [21:27] this stunt marketing scheme. [21:30] How did you get this idea and what is the strategy? [21:34] Which stunt marketing? Just in general, all the things that I've been doing? [21:38] It started off with the viral launch video. Yeah. That went really well. [21:42] Really good language. [21:44] More recently, you had a stripper. [21:47] How did you find this stripper? How did you [21:50] get this video or this [21:53] Photo together. I'll tell you some things. Why did you... [21:58] Why did you go all the way? [22:00] to getting a stripper. [22:02] I think the first step of the pyramid is... [22:06] Twitter or people on Twitter are about two years behind when it comes to humor compared to people on Instagram, TikTok. [22:13] And I think [22:14] anything that I do on Twitter would not have gone viral on Instagram, TikTok, because they're not crazy enough. But for people on Twitter who are like behind, or sorry, X, [22:25] Everything I do feels crazy. And I think there is a gigantic, like gigantic, gigantic delta in this where people on Instagram have realized you need to be extremely crazy. And as a result, what you see on the Instagram for you page is literally insane. But um, [22:40] What you see on Twitter is not, on X, is not crazy at all. There's a gigantic delta in this. And I think the first person that proved it is Avi Schiffman with his launch of friend.com. He showed us literally over a year ago, if you make a controversial cinematic demo video, you will get tens of millions of views. And for some reason, nobody fucking picked up on it. And until me.

[22:59] to loop back fully to your point and your question. [23:02] Virality is [23:04] really important. [23:06] But it means nothing if you can't do it consistently. [23:08] But if you can do it consistently, [23:11] then it's the most powerful thing in the world and it will make you untouchable. [23:15] The trick here is to do it consistently. [23:17] And the only way to be viral consistently is to be doing interesting things consistently. [23:21] And I promise you, whether it's hiring 50 interns or doing crazy shit, I will continue to do interesting things. [23:27] And I will be unique in this because I'm not just doing interesting things. [23:31] I'm also building a tech company. And the intersection of people who are willing to do interesting things to go viral and are also building tech companies is pretty much one. [23:41] There's a lot to unpack here. [23:45] I would say [23:46] One, the type of virality that YouTubers and social media people go after. [23:52] is less [23:54] less of an accountable risk [23:57] because [23:58] they're kind of on their own, right? [24:00] For you, [24:01] You're the CEO of company, you're venture backed by some really reputable names. [24:06] there's a difference there. [24:08] So do you not see any sort of risk with your [24:12] investors and your professional reputation with doing these kinds of stunts. [24:18] I think we've seen for about the last 30 to 40 years, there's been a sharp drop-off in professionalism in the workplace. You have engineers that walk around in hoodies and sweatpants, and this is normal now. 20 years ago, maybe 30 years ago, this would not have been normal, and it would have been extremely frowned upon. If you're a professional, you wear a suit and tie. There's a growing decrease in professionalism, and that's because the rise of short-form technology

[24:38] Shortform content has kind of desensitized everyone to the craziest things. [24:43] I don't know. [24:44] because you don't just watch TVs and commercials with like these polished [24:47] Sorry, you don't watch TV anymore with polished commercials and super professional, like no real controversial commercial. Now you scroll on your timeline and the timeline algorithm rewards the things that are most controversial. As a result, everyone has seen things that are extremely controversial and has become desensitized to it. This is why you see sports like fucking sperm racing come out. [25:06] And sperm racing would never have been allowed to air on TV back in like 20 years ago. But now, of course, it's can't. Of course, everyone is aware that there's controversial things happening. It's OK. And I think we're going to see the same thing with professionalism. And let's just just imagine a world where I do make it here. [25:21] Like, what do you think will happen to the culture of startup professionalism and like, oh, like brand risk and like all this shit? [25:27] like, [25:28] I strongly think that it's just going to, people are going to realize like, oh, this shit doesn't matter. Everyone's cool with this now. [25:33] and [25:35] If I make it, then it will be like the death of professionalism. [25:38] So there are two sides. [25:40] to your [25:41] argument. There's one that would say you're a marketing genius. And there are people that are posting about it online, like you did it, you are very polarizing. You have camps that are like super supportive. And some that are like, wow, this is really not. [25:56] This is very distasteful. I don't want anything to do with it. This is a shame on the venture capital industry and everybody in technology. Because there are these two camps to this.

[26:08] Where do you think the risk lies? [26:10] Thank you. [26:13] Is there anyone that you're concerned about... [26:16] offending [26:19] Or do you think that the more virality, the more stunts you do, the more desensitized everyone becomes? [26:27] I have two responses to this. [26:29] I think probably the most controversial person in the world might be Elon Musk. [26:33] And Elon Musk is a founder that everybody looks up to. He has undeniably made it. And [26:38] Perhaps he's like big to the, and this ties into my second point, when you become big enough, you become untouchable and the risk of controversy becomes zero. [26:48] like or as about as close to zero as it gets. [26:51] And now Elon can pretty much say whatever the fuck he wants, do whatever the fuck he wants. He's also the richest man on earth. Exactly, exactly. And has many multi-billion dollar companies that shield him from that. [27:02] Once you make it, [27:04] then you are shielded. [27:05] But he didn't make it by being controversial. He made it by working really hard. [27:11] I would push back that he didn't make it by being controversial. [27:14] the person that he is right now is very likely similar to the person that he was when he was 20. And I guarantee you the bets he's making now that are controversial and people think are crazy are the exact same bets they would have made [27:24] 20 years ago, he just didn't market it so publicly. [27:27] The difference is that I'm being extremely public about the marketing of it. [27:31] Perhaps it'll burn me. Perhaps it'll make me win. But I know that I would not be here right now if I wasn't public about being controversial. [27:37] And I think this is a

[27:39] The revenue numbers, the fundraising, everything that's happened so far is a place where 99% of founders don't ever see in their lives. [27:46] One of the biggest pushbacks in addition to those is they don't think that this is sustainable, that [27:54] You're going to crash and burn. There's actually a Calci market out on it that will the CEO of Cluey leave the company this year. Insinuating either, you know, you crash and burn, you get fired, you get pushed out, or maybe you go to jail. I don't know. Okay. I don't know what the lines are with your stunts. [28:13] So, [28:14] What do you think? I mean, I think every single great person in the world has had a point in their lives where they faced extreme controversy. [28:22] The richest people in the world with the most successful companies, you post a picture of them on Instagram and they just get dogged on by a million people saying, oh, this is an evil billionaire. This person is literally morally bankrupt. They say all these things. And when you fail, you become Sam Bankman freed. And when you win, you become... [28:39] Elon Musk, Sam Altman. And... [28:41] Like there's people who say Sam Altman is building like the fucking devil and accelerating the end of humanity as we know it. There's people who think he's like a saint. And it's like at the end of the line... [28:49] the person with the most attention has 50% of people rooting against him and 50% of people rooting for him. And it's just, like, you will be hated by people. And I'm just unfazed. [29:00] The only thing that [29:03] everyone needs to worry about is can you hit escape velocity fast enough to become untouchable before you piss enough people off? [29:09] And I think right now I'm accelerating my trajectory towards both escape velocity and towards pissing a bunch of people off. But...

[29:16] Who knows if I will get there? - What are your odds on leaving the company this year? - My odds on leaving the company? I mean zero, like we're literally profitable. And we spent, like we spent as much money as we can. There's almost zero expense that goes unapproved by us. Cause we understand that, [29:29] You need to spend big and swing big to win big and all of our marketing sense. Like if it means like we buy 10 fursuits and they're all $10,000 and we dress up everybody in the office as like a furry for a video, like fuck it, we'll do it, bro. [29:40] and yet we're still profitable because we make a bunch of money. So again, like we're accelerating both towards escape velocity and we're accelerating towards... [29:48] towards burning. You guys are profitable? Still, still profitable. That's crazy. I know, right? Still profitable. More seriously, though, you have enterprise customers now. Yes. [29:58] How does this lead into customer service with those enterprise customers? Have you been getting any pushback from them? [30:06] Almost none. The only reason I have the contracts that I do right now [30:10] is because the decision makers at these enterprise companies have seen my Twitter and think I'm funny and are rooting for me. And they're part of the 50% of people that are rooting for me. [30:18] And I would never have had these contracts if I was just some lame posting about this random HUD translucent liquid glass screen overlay. Like if that's all clearly was just like, oh, AI sales calls, like I would have not had any of these contracts. But I have these contracts because I'm willing to take the risk, be polarizing, and some people support me. [30:34] Your company account tweeted yesterday. You tweeted... [30:39] 20 million UGC views in two weeks. X and LinkedIn is not our target audience. And if you're fuming at our messaging, you will soon find yourself on the wrong side of history. Victory is inevitable when you understand how to capture attention consistently.

[30:54] That's deep. [30:55] Yeah, you guys are good with words. [30:59] But beyond x, where are you also capturing this tension? [31:03] What's the strategy? X and LinkedIn are extremely small and [31:08] especially tech Twitter, it's super small. What I've learned is if you have a post, if you're in tech Twitter and you have a post that does over, say, 40,000 impressions, you've hit pretty much every relevant decision maker in tech. [31:21] It's an extremely, extremely small world. [31:23] Um, [31:24] And realistically, if I go outside San Francisco, I walk around for 10 hours with a giant shirt that says Cluley guy, nobody's going to recognize me. Maybe like a handful of people will recognize me. Because this world, it's super niche. And what feels like, man, Cluley's been on my timeline for the past two months. Like, it's all I can hear about. In reality, you walk outside, nobody's fucking heard of this. [31:42] because regular people are not on Twitter, LinkedIn, or ex-LinkedIn. Regular people are on Instagram, TikTok. [31:48] Well, [31:50] more more many many more regular many many more people are on instagram tick tock than on excellent [31:55] And, uh, [31:57] Every single big company is known by regular people. [32:00] I think, [32:01] the two ways that you achieve like, [32:04] full consumer mindshare, [32:05] is you can either get the mindshare first or you can have your product um [32:10] funnel you into Mindshare. I think [32:12] we don't have the time. [32:14] to let our product grow that fast, that big, that big, that fast. [32:17] But we do have the time to [32:20] go hyperviral on IG TikTok. [32:22] I'm not sure that I'm framing this right, but I guess to put it in like,

[32:27] an analogous way to building companies, the TAM of IG TikTok is way bigger. And even if I've captured the TAM of X, it's not big enough for the company to hit escape velocity. [32:38] We don't just need to be the biggest thing on tech Twitter. We need to be the biggest thing on IG TikTok. [32:46] That takes a lot. [32:48] in the tweet. [32:49] Katie, Sue, from your team... [32:53] She broke down how you guys achieve a million views per day. Yeah. And this bleeds down into hiring in 10 creators in-house. Yeah. [33:00] Yep. [33:01] How did you get that idea? [33:03] I mean, this is the playbook that every consumer app uses. [33:09] Do you think marketing teams are going to have to all shift to this now is – [33:13] growth now in the hands of the creator? Of course. I mean, marketing teams can try, but I think the reason why CalAI founder is like fucking 18, Quitter founder is like 19, the reason why all these big consumer app guys are so young is because you need to be tapped in with young culture to understand what's funny. And you can have like a 35-year-old marketer who's... [33:34] like, [33:34] scrolls as much as they want. For some reason, they just won't have the viral sense to come up with hooks that are capable of generating 10 million views. And if you don't have a guy who's capable of generating these crazy hooks or capable of identifying who has Algalpool right now, then I'm [33:47] Like you can't do this. [33:49] This process is... [33:50] The one thing that you need for this process, which in reality is quite easy, is ViralSense. And ViralSense is something that is extremely scarce.

[33:58] How big is your team to date? [34:01] without the interns. [34:02] 11 full-time. [34:04] 11 full time? [34:05] And you guys all live in a house together? [34:08] Most of us live in the house, but some of us live in an apartment that's a block away. How do you think of the whole house idea? I know hacker houses have been a mainstay in San Francisco for a while, but you got a very nice one. Yeah. You got a very big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [34:22] I think [34:24] you need to work where you live if you're serious about building the company. Like work-life balance should not be a thing that you think about. Your work should be your life and vice versa. And if that's the case, then the best way to... [34:36] to realize this is by literally living where you work. You wake up, you go straight to work, you go to bed, on the couch, essentially. [34:43] And that's sort of the culture that we're trying to promote here. There is no work-life balance. Your entire life is clearly and your entire work is clearly. [34:50] Okay. What's the team composition? [34:52] ah [34:54] four ang, seven growth. [34:56] And we only hire one of two types of people. You're either an engineer... [35:02] or like a world-class engineer or you're an influencer. And also like a world-class influencer with like [35:08] high alcohol. [35:09] There's nobody who's not a great engineer who has less than 100,000 followers. [35:14] Wow. Yeah. How do you find everyone? What's your recruiting process? [35:18] How do you filter them out? [35:19] That's a very dense team. [35:23] I think I have viral sense. I scroll quite a bit and I understand what's trending in culture right now. As a result, like when I suddenly got this injection of money, like I knew immediately, here's like the top 10 people I want to hire and now fucking like seven of them are living with me in the house.

[35:40] When you scroll enough, [35:44] You just know, like the same people tend to pop up recently. You see the same series. You know exactly which series are hot right now, and you know which creators are hot. [35:52] And it's not celebrities anymore. It's not people with 10 million followers anymore. It's literally like the college kid with 100,000 followers. [35:59] or maybe even like 10,000 followers sometimes. [36:01] And those are the people that we've recruited. [36:03] Talking about the culture within the house, are you at all concerned with all these stunts, the stunt marketing, that it's going to leave the wrong impression on your employees or something might go too far and you won't be able to... [36:16] manage it or you're going to bring in a lot of really bad talent who just thinks that you're crazy and you're not serious. How do you manage that? [36:25] A lot of people think [36:27] because of my ex that I'm the guy that comes up with all the crazy stunts. [36:31] But in reality, almost every single day, we have a brainstorming session about what is the craziest thing we can do in the near future. [36:38] that will capture attention again. [36:40] And if you think what we've done today is crazy, then you're going to shit your pants when you see what happens for like the next month or two months. [36:46] We have a [36:48] a storyboard of content that is like genuinely insane and has never ever been attempted before in the realm of Twitter. And I think it's... [36:56] I don't have to worry about the employees because the employees are the ones coming up with these ideas. Everyone is on board with the craziness, and we understand that this is the lifeline of the company. [37:03] We are either crazy enough to make it or crazy enough to die. [37:06] Or too crazy and we die. [37:08] What would you want someone to know if they were coming to work at Cluelly?

[37:12] Thank you. [37:16] Hmm, what would I want a future employee to know? [37:21] I think [37:22] Perhaps the one pinnacle of the company is that there are only two roles here. [37:28] You're either building the product or you're making the product go viral. [37:31] And if you're not excellent at one of two things, then you're probably not going to get hired. [37:37] And if you are excellent at one or two of the things, then you are likely crazy enough to... [37:42] be fully on board with what we're doing. And if you're not, then you wouldn't have applied in the first place. So there's no reason for you to be here. [37:47] A world-class engineer only applies for a company like Cluey. [37:50] because they're attracted by the culture. And if you're attracted by the culture, then why would you ever try and stop the culture from promulgating? [37:56] And if you are an influencer, then just by nature of influencers, like you will understand what it takes to be viral. Yeah. [38:01] you will understand that [38:03] it's cool what we're doing and you will contribute. Or you'll quit because you don't think the culture is right. [38:08] What do you think is like your grand vision for Clue Lee? [38:12] I think it's inevitable that in about two or three years, we will have [38:15] Uh... [38:17] models that are multimodal large context windows are capable of reasoning over say three hours of a screen recording. [38:24] in that world, [38:26] all of a sudden, the second that release comes out, the second that API comes out, all of a sudden there's like... [38:31] Every technologist in the world has the capability to build technology. [38:33] essentially Jarvis. [38:35] But in that world, who wins? [38:38] who is actually the one that becomes the main distributor of Jarvis. [38:41] In my opinion, it's

[38:43] whoever has the same thing that Google had when they put out Gmail and killed Yahoo Mail, same thing that Google had when they put out search and they beat Bing. It's not a fundamentally better product, [38:52] It's capturing of mindshare. [38:54] And I think mindshare is something that [38:57] It's probably like the most important lever of consumer or just [39:00] of technology distribution in general, and what people [39:04] often [39:05] mistake this for virality. They think, oh, virality is not sustainable. But what is sustainable is mindshare. And the difference is this. [39:12] You can have a product that gets a billion monthly views for, say, UGC content every single month, and nobody will ever sit down at a lunch table and start talking about your product. Because they might see it brain rotting, or they might have heard about it, but they don't actually care. [39:24] And to make people care, you need to do something polarizing, something crazy like our launch video. [39:28] And I think the only way to capture Mindshare is to know that [39:32] in this world [39:33] There's millions of people who go to lunch every day and talk about you. [39:36] And truly, the only way to do this is to be controversial and viral and do it consistently. [39:41] And if you can do this, then you will get the same-- [39:43] There's a reason why people... [39:45] use Discord all the time. They don't use any other social app they use as a [39:48] Like, like, it's cool. [39:50] And you don't become cool by just getting views. You become cool by being the talking point of every lunch table. [39:56] Um, [39:57] And, um, [39:58] You get there by doing pretty much exactly what I'm doing. It's how Mr. B's got there. It's how the Paul brothers got there. It's how Charlie D'Amelio got there. Everybody gets there by doing some crazy shit and getting talked about over and over and over again. [40:09] Are there actually 50 interns there? [40:12] 50 interns never meant 50 interns. Well, not 50 actual in-person interns the same way that you think about them today, but it means like five interns and like, say, 45 UGC creators. We're actually planning on scaling this to way more, but...

[40:25] Like this is what a modern day internship looks like. And this is probably what like labor in general looks like in a future of AI. I mean, UGC creator, [40:33] You sit down on a phone and you make TikToks about a product. This is like a concept that wouldn't, it's a job that did not exist even 20 years ago. So it feels sort of absurd to call it an internship. In reality, it is an internship. Like you're here doing part-time work at a job that may convert to full-time in the future, and you're providing value to the company. Like this is by all means a growth internship. [40:50] So we have a bunch of interns and right now, like, yeah, we're like closing in on 50. If you count all the UGC creators. [40:56] How do you manage that internally? Are you guys going to create your own platform for managing? Views, analytics, what metrics do you measure? How do you think about that? [41:06] against the virality, against the growth hacking? I mean, this is like a critical component to the business. So how do you how do you manage it? [41:13] Yeah, I mean, we have, like... [41:15] what is shaping up to be our own internal CRM for managing all this stuff. And probably this will be like the first of its kind, like a CRM exclusively for managing creators. [41:23] But it's in house right now. [41:26] There's not too much overhead because in reality you don't have to manage the people, you have to manage the content that they produce. [41:33] and you get paid for the content that you make. So if you're lazy, then you just don't get paid and that's it. [41:39] Um... [41:40] there's not significant operational overhead. And we have the systems in place for this to scale to like 2000 creators. [41:45] So I'm pretty confident about this. [41:49] Not sure. I think I might have. Yeah, but how do you, how do you, okay, so how do you manage...

[41:55] that system, like how do you manage the views of all that? Like how do you determine they're real, they're fake? Are they bought it? Are they not? Like if you scale to 2000 creators, like I'm in discord channels, I'm in WAP, like I'm doing content rewards. Like you can, like, [42:09] Scaling for quality is really hard. And something that, I don't know, like not every view is worth it. [42:17] So I'm just really trying to deeply understand, how do you scale up quality views? [42:23] Yeah, I think there's two main types of content that we put out. One is converting content. You have a hook where you actually, you visually show the product and you explain one of the use cases of the product and you just expect it to convert and be profitable. And you have ones that are intended to convert. [42:41] Capture Hivemind. [42:43] And again, we don't care about the profitability of this at all. We just want people to consistently see Clulee. [42:49] and hear about Cluey, man, another fucking Cluey video on my timeline. I cannot get this off my feet. This is crazy. Even if they're never going to go to cluey.com, just implants it deep in their mind. [43:01] And I think tracking conversions on views and all that shit, it's like the most, [43:05] stupid thing you can do. Because in reality, what does like there is no dollar amount of one view. [43:11] you can't really calculate what the dollar amount of my launch video was, because this was like a culturally significant moment in tech. This is something that [43:16] everyone was talking about. And as a result, like there's people going around in the biggest rooms talking about like, like the Cluelly launch video. How do you calculate? Like, how do you put a monetary value on that? Is it like the conversion? Like, I don't give a fuck about the conversion. Like we made a cultural moment.

[43:29] um and i think tracking that stuff is is like pretty meaningless eventually [43:34] Suppose you could scale up to, say, 100 billion views a month. That's pretty extreme. But if you could do that, then, like, bro, like, fuck, I will pay any fucking... How much money do you think Google would... [43:44] would pay to get $100 billion in views a month consistently. Like probably a lot of fucking money. - How much money have you spent on views? [43:52] Less than maybe like $20,000. $20,000? How much did you spend on the viral video? Which viral video? The Clue Lee launch video. Clue Lee launch video was $140,000. [44:01] Okay. Yeah. [44:02] It was before the raise too, so at the time it was like our entire life savings. Do you have a budget for all of this? Like how do you manage- [44:08] The budget is essentially all of our investor money. [44:12] Okay. [44:12] Probably like 80% of it. [44:15] And it's just, you just can't track these things. I don't think you should be tracking these things. And it's pretty obvious if you have like a very visual product demo. [44:24] it will convert. And all you have to worry about is if you watch the video, do you think this is highly converting? Does it actually show a demonstrable use case, visual of the product, and is it actually something that would make someone with a need buy your product? If yes, then fuck off the conversions. Don't track the analytics because... [44:42] Like the analytics means nothing. Love premium merch just as much as we do. That's why Sorcery uses Fourth Wall. Everyone from creators like Marques Brownlee to podcasts like Acquired to orgs, like the Smithsonian Institute are using Fourth Wall. [44:56] They let you create and sell premium products without having to stress the details. They handle everything from production, shipping, customer support, taxes, even giveaways.

[45:05] When it's time to level up and make gear that people are actually proud to wear, that's when it's time to use fourth wall. [45:10] And that's why we've trusted 4th Wall for all of our brandware at Sorcery since day one. Use my link in the description. [45:17] to get free credits for your first order. [45:19] And for any VCs, DM me on X, and I can get all your portfolio companies set up with a free samples credit deal. [45:26] Are you going to use any of these AI generated videos? Like Veo just came out, Calci just [45:32] made an amazing viral video on this. And I'm not just saying that because I work... [45:36] with CalShe and their sponsors. But CalShe just made like an incredibly, very tasteful... [45:43] AI generated video with another creator and it went so well. Are you thinking about using any of those? [45:50] It's possible. There's like literally a million viral formats out there. [45:54] right now we're sticking with what we know works and what we as influencers know and like a lot of these are just like talking head videos from real people i think the most important thing with the video going viral is like [46:05] Do people think that it's real? [46:07] And [46:08] If there's even a slight hesitation, like, oh, this might not be real, this feels AI, [46:13] there's formats that that kills. Like there's formats that that kills in, but there's also formats that are just like impossible if the average viewer looks at it and thinks, ah, it doesn't look real to me. [46:20] And those are generally the formats that we try to use. So I don't think we've completely crossed the uncanny valley with VO3. [46:27] Um, so, okay. Yeah. Well, I want to get into some more personal stuff, Roy. Let's do it. [46:32] I can't imagine that this whole process has been up and to the right for you. I'm sure that there have been challenges and there will be challenges and you're probably facing many when you pull these things. But like, how do you manage that? And what kinds of challenges have you faced so far as founder and CEO of the company?

[46:51] I think obviously the PR crises are the biggest thing we have to manage. [46:56] Thank you. [46:57] But, [46:58] There's a very clear North Star here, and it's a, I want to be conqueror of the fucking universe. [47:04] And I think anybody who wants this does not have the time [47:08] to sit in their room, shit in their pants, worrying about the people that they might have pissed off. [47:12] The only thing I can do is what I do best right now. And clearly, this is... [47:17] capturing people's attention and building this specific product. [47:21] I think these are like I spike in one thing very obviously and clearly. If my goal is to make as big a swing as possible, then I'm, [47:29] "I need to capitalize on the things that I'm great at." And if it turns out, and I think like so far, I've been rewarded immensely for capitalizing on this one particular skill that I have. And in the future, perhaps I will be burned by it [47:42] but perhaps I will be rewarded a million times more immensely. [47:45] And [47:46] I think obviously like the PR crises, like when you swing this big, it is inevitable that sometimes you will miss. And when you do miss, like it's pretty bad because you swing really big and you missed. [47:57] When you make these huge bets on virality and you try and go super viral every time, [48:03] It is inevitable that sometimes you'll win, but sometimes you'll lose. [48:06] And the times where you lose, I think, [48:08] I'm faced with a situation that almost nobody faces in their lives ever. [48:12] And it's hard. There's no one I can turn to for advice. [48:15] Who's the person I asked for, "Hey, I just got kicked out of Columbia for building a cheating tool and going viral?" [48:20] I'm blacklisted from every big tech company now, what should I do? Who can I ask for advice on that?

[48:24] There's almost no one. And it's times like this where I have to [48:28] sit in a room and just like reflect with solely myself. [48:33] And I think just being alone and thinking about like, man, maybe I really fucked it up this time. [48:39] Those are definitely the hardest times. And I think this is like a challenge that even like among tech founders, almost nobody experiences this. [48:48] The things that help me are, there might not be people that I can go to directly for advice, [48:52] But there's people that I know will always be on my side. [48:55] and like my parents or my best friends, my co-founders. [48:58] So, [49:00] And I think it's very important to draw a distinction between [49:03] my real life and who I am online. [49:06] the way I'm online is like the craziest person ever. I'm optimizing for one thing, and that's eyeballs on Cluey. [49:10] But... [49:11] the life that I live in the real world, [49:14] the people that I'm around that love me unconditionally, and I love them unconditionally back. [49:19] I know this will never change and it's [49:22] I anchor myself to them. [49:28] So what are you looking to improve upon as a CEO? [49:33] I think I've been thrust into a position of leadership and management. [49:37] over a lot of people and [49:40] It's pretty crazy. [49:42] Like this is such a stark difference from me just like [49:45] hacking in a dorm room with Neil. [49:47] I don't really get to make the same engineering mistakes and just be like, oh, fuck it. Sorry, I'll send a sorry email to our 20 users and just...

[49:55] redo the entire DB. I don't really get that anymore. [49:58] Now I sort of have to be stricter with people. And that's sort of like the framework that we always operated in. And I'm sort of the one that has to step up now and be like, [50:06] Um, [50:07] we gotta be more serious. And it's hard for people to take that seriously when it's coming from me. [50:12] I think that-- [50:13] THIS IS PROBABLY THE THING. [50:15] even at work, I'm like, I try to inspire people to think creatively about swinging big, taking huge risks. But I'm also the guy that has to step in when things get bad. I'm like, hey, this is a shitty migration. We can't do this again. And I think it's been hard to distinguish that with the employees. And sometimes being serious CEO Roy mode, and most of the time being like, let's all think about crazy shit we can do. [50:37] Is there anyone you particularly admire or look up to? Yeah, Elon Musk. I think this is like the one guy who he gets it so right. He was the most controversial, hated, might have been at one point the most hated person on the internet. And he just fought through it. And this guy is like literally the richest man in the world. [50:52] There is nobody that's ever been like Elon or done what he's done. [50:56] And I think if there ever was a role model for my controversial polarizing this, [51:01] hitting escape velocity and just being able to go to the [51:04] I do whatever the fuck I want zone. It's Elon. [51:06] Go to Mars. Go to Mars. Exactly, bro. Exactly. [51:09] Okay, well, as we wrap up, I like to close out on a really fun predictions segment. Okay. [51:16] So we're gonna use CalSHE and we're gonna go through a couple. I know we already went through one, whether or not you're gonna leave the company. [51:23] The market's out for that.

[51:25] But-- [51:27] On the topic of Elon-- [51:30] Do you think Elon will create a new political party this year? I hope so. [51:33] I am very anti-politics. I try to be as apolitical as possible. I have almost no political takes. But the one thing that I love about politics is that it's very... [51:43] Very raucous. [51:44] There's always some shit going on that riles people up. And I think it's entertaining to watch. And I would love to see Elon start a new political party. As he tweeted, the most entertaining outcome is the most obvious. And I think if there's ever a person in the world who has the ability and willingness to do some crazy shit like this, it'd be Elon. I'm all for it. I'm like, I would full port that. [52:03] What do you think that political party would be? Probably like the fucking technology party, AA party, I don't know, American party. [52:09] The American Party probably is what people are saying, right? [52:13] Okay. Yeah, the party that represents the 80% of people in the middle. If... [52:18] - Clearly, [52:19] disrupts the labor force as much as you think it might. [52:23] Jobs might be lost. Okay. What do you think the unemployment rate will be in 2030? Probably like fucking 4%. Like things will revert back to the mean- Like humans will always find new jobs except for the 4% of people that just don't want to work. [52:35] Okay. Well, you're [52:38] We don't know. We don't know if you're right or you're wrong. [52:40] I know. The market right now says 8.7. That's the forecast. The market is wrong. [52:46] clearly told me this, the market is wrong, we could expect four. [52:49] All right. [52:50] Lastly, [52:51] You seem like you know a lot of stuff. You're online all the time. All the time, yeah. All the time.

[52:57] Do you think a major meteor will hit the earth by 2030? Bro absolutely not bro like I feel like [53:04] this is such a stupid thing to bet on. Cause if you're right, what the fuck do you win? And if you're wrong, like, like you have nothing left to gain, but, but, but to win, I think it is stupid to think about like the worst case scenario. I'm like an extreme optimist. [53:18] I genuinely think super intelligence will do almost no harm. Whatever harm it will do, it will, like, self-restore. I think all the people worried about, like, AGI safety, all that bullshit. This is like, bro, like, I'm an extreme optimist. I think AI will cause us all to live to 500 years plus, will cure cancer and Alzheimer's. And literally, in probably, like, 50 years, I'm going to be on Earth 3 in universe, like, B47, thanks to AI. And Elon Musk. And Elon Musk. Exactly, bro. I'm an extreme techno-optimist. [53:48] negative thing to think about. If I could bet on, like, I will full-port know. [53:52] Okay. All right. Well, there's a 65% chance. [53:56] Yes? Yeah. Are you serious? I think that's ridiculous. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. [54:01] Okay, Roy, well, this was certainly an interesting conversation. I don't think I've been called bro more than my life. [54:10] But thank you so much for coming on and sharing more about Cluely and your crazy... [54:16] your crazy stunts and all the things you're doing. [54:18] You're welcome, bro.