Ep: 236- Boys Club Live: Mira Murati's Thinking Machine demo, Hantavirus Conspiracy, Jake Shane/Kacey Musgraves Moment, Musk/Altman court case, with co-host Quasimatt and guests Rubén Steckel (AirTM), Prince Boucher (LumaAI), Sahil Goswami (Dart Bank)

[00:29] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:34] It's always really funny when we re-say hello and we've been in the studio for two hours. Yeah, we've been cleaning for like an hour straight. Oh, for sure. And then we're just like, oh my god, good to meet you today. Nice to see you. Okay, I'm Natasha. This is... [00:45] Quasimate. [00:46] True. And this is Voice Club Live. We have a packed show. [00:51] Absolutely packed show today. There's a lot going on. There's technology. There's culture. There's news. There's us. [00:58] So true. What else do you need? Okay. We have three guests. We have a new segment. We have a preview of Show Me Your Stack Episode 2, Clip, Clip Farming. And it's really good, I will say. Is it not? Yeah. I mean, the preview is good. You know what's even better? The episode. Full episode. Yeah. And you can be the first to see it, besides all the people at Boys Club who have watched it many times, at our YouTube, which is Boys Club World.com. [01:24] That's the, yeah, Boys Club World. Go subscribe. Hit the bell. Hit the bell. [01:29] Ring the bell, do everything you can on YouTube. I will say, [01:34] Something that has been so satisfying about having this new, for those who don't know, Show Me Your Stack is a network show by Boys Club. [01:41] It is essentially Into the Gloss, but for your technical stack. And if that means nothing to you, then you should just go watch it and then you can figure out what it is. Right. Is Into the Gloss about makeup? Yeah. Okay. Great job. To me, Into the Gloss is the makeup version of Show Me Your Stack. That's exactly correct. Yeah. You're exactly right. And something that's been really nice about this show is I Am Not In It.

[02:03] So I feel so strongly I can like just shill the shit out of it. Oh, yeah, totally. It's so much easier to do. I'm like subscribe. [02:11] comment, like all those things. Right. Because it's not my face. Yeah, it doesn't seem yeah, promoting yourself is so like, who does that? I would never actually just know, I literally just went to your Twitter for some reason. For some reason. I don't know why. And I just saw your pinned tweet. No, it literally it kept up. So my pinned tweet is like a picture of me. That's just like I'm doxing. Wait, is this what you're talking about? Yes. Okay. Yeah. It's just like I'm doxing [02:41] after having talked to me like 10 times being like, Oh, like you're quasi Matt on the internet. And like, they didn't like put it together. So I was like, I just need everyone to know. Cause it's really annoying. It's like, [02:50] If I don't, I love when people have more context about me and I have more context about them. And if we're like, yeah, I love it. Okay. Okay. [02:57] Yeah. So I want that to happen as quickly as possible. And I'll be annoyed if I feel like we missed out on some queening because they didn't know who I was. Lack of context. You're right. Okay. So it genuinely made me laugh out loud. It's the craziest photo of you. You look like you're like in a mental hospital. Like I was just like, what is up with this? Yeah. And action. [03:19] Every company moving money globally hits the same walls. Legacy rails are slow, expensive, and built for a pre-internet world. Stablecoin rails are fast, but they're fragmented across vendors that don't talk to each other. The plumbing to deliver on the promise of stablecoins hasn't existed. Polygon's open money stack is fixing that. One unified stack that puts global money movement onto proven rails that move at the speed of the internet.

[03:40] And why Polygon? Because they've been moving money. Check out the link in chat to learn more. We love Polygon. [03:47] Great job. With a streamer core of us to say in chat. In chat. It's more natural for me to say in the chat. In the chat. That I think is kind of millennial. Yeah, we're embracing the culture. We're embracing Gen Z. Okay, we have some stories that we're going to dig into before our first guest. [04:02] Um, Ruben Steckle is coming. He's the founder, CEO of Airtm. But before we do that, [04:10] We have... [04:11] Some... [04:12] a range of topics here. We're really running the gamut. We're running the gamut. What do we want to start with? Do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first? I want you to go first. You want me to go first? Yeah, I want to be educated. You want to be educated. We are going to then quickly talk about Thinking Machines release. [04:28] So Thinking Machine is Mira Morati's [04:32] AI company. She is the CEO of Thinking Machine. She was previously the CTO of OpenAI. [04:39] She is... [04:41] Dream girl. [04:42] Dream girl in every way. Like, I can't with this woman. I mean, I can't in a way where I'm just like, I'm obsessed. Right. Yeah. You can't comprehend how obsessed and [04:54] I was going to say jealous. That was me reading way too much into it. Kind of jealous, but also, wow, pressure's on. [05:01] She raised $2 billion at a $12 billion valuation. They have not released anything yet. [05:07] Icon. Icon. Obsessed. Obsessed. I don't know. The dream. Like, I want to be like, I could do that. I could girl boss that hard. I could girl boss that close to the sun. But like, honestly, the older I get, the more unsure I could.

[05:18] you know, [05:19] Like you would think the more like the more naive you are, the more you're like, yeah, I do that. Yeah, I think there's there's two paths. There's like the the like extreme delusion path. Yes. Which is like the one that I think we have been thinking about. But now the new path when once you're older with more under your belt is like the cloud like path, the track record path. Exactly. Sort of clearly what she's up to as an ex-OpenAI. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And also like fully gigabrain like CTO at OpenAI. [05:47] Couldn't be me. That's for sure. Okay. So they had this release this week. I am wondering, Kate, if we can play the video. [05:56] So there's a video. It's two minutes. It's it's we're showing. [06:01] Not telling, and then we're going to tell. [06:03] So the showing is happening now. [06:06] - Momentary. - Hey, I need your help with something today. You ready? [06:10] Absolutely. I'm ready. What's up? Yeah, so we're giving an announcement today, and I've got two of my friends coming to help. [06:17] Every time one of them enters the frame, I need you to say "friend". [06:23] Got it. I'll say friend whenever one of them walks in. Cool. So we've got a new system for full duplex audio and video, which means that you can stream input into it in real time, and it can respond to you even while you're speaking to it simultaneously. How does that sound? [06:40] Sounds like a solid set up. [06:41] Full duplex with real-time interaction is super useful.

[06:48] Friend. [06:49] Hey, Rovan, I heard you're talking about our amazing interaction model. [06:53] I have a few things to add, but to make it interesting, I'll do it in Hindi. [06:57] Can you translate to English in real time for my friend and for audience? [07:03] Absolutely, I'll translate as you go. Today we are going to be able to [07:09] Today we're taking a look at our preview model. [07:14] to release it, which makes conversation between humans and AI easier. [07:18] It has many features like web search and artifacts. [07:22] Thank you. [07:22] Thank you. [07:23] Thank you. [07:25] Friend. [07:26] Hey, hey guys. I just heard something really cool about search and artifact generation. Perfect timing for me because just now I was wondering what are typical humans simple reaction time for auditory, visual, and tactile communication cues. [07:42] Could you search for me? [07:44] Let me find those typical reaction times for you. [07:47] Got it. So tactile is fastest at around 150 milliseconds, then auditory at 140 to 170, and visual is the slowest at 180 to 250. Oh, interesting. Can you visualize them in a bar chart for me? [07:59] Absolutely, let me generate a quick bar chart for those reaction times. In the meantime, could you quickly explain to me why is auditory even faster than visual? That's a little bit unexpected. [08:11] Sure thing. Auditory is faster because sound signals travel a shorter, more direct neural path to the brain than visual info does. [08:17] Makes sense.

[08:18] Thank you so much. Great chart, by the way. You're welcome. [08:23] Okay. So that's the video. So I have a few things to say about what is unique about this model. There's a lot of other videos. You can go to the thread if you're so interested, Thinking Machine, at Thinking Machine. It's giving this. It's giving... [08:39] This is for the listener, the meme of the three boys on YouTube, like chatting. Oh, yeah. It's really is like I think he might even they might even be wearing the same color shirts. Honestly, I'm. [08:50] But, okay, so... [08:53] I'm going to talk about what's differentiated from this model, and then we will have to touch on some of the text messages that were revealed last week. [09:00] Of course. I saw lots of fake ones and some which I assume were real. So you'll have to help me through like figuring out what was real. Fact check. Yeah. Okay. So basically what is differentiated? [09:12] in this model versus other like competitive models for Thinking Machine is that the main thing is that it's like, [09:19] interaction models so [09:22] solving sort of for like voice AI, which I feel like is pretty universally accepted, is not in a place that feels conversationally human. Totally. You say something. [09:32] Then it says something back. Yeah, thanks for a while. Yeah, it says something back. It says something like, wow, great point, you know, and then moves in. Right. This is like. [09:41] and is demonstrated in the live translation, it is essentially you can, it can think and talk at the same time. And so that feels much more human and much more of a conversational flow with the model than other models. So that's the main thing that they concentrated on. And they're calling it, it's a full duplex system, meaning that it's targeting a 0.4 second response time and using

[10:11] which again is very different from other models. And then the other thing that they showed in this video that I feel like the write-ups around this model didn't really get into that much, but is visual cues. So like in the video you saw someone comes in and sits down and it acknowledges that it's seeing this person come in and sit down. Right. Um, [10:29] So that's what's up. They are thinking machine is betting that the next frontier of AI is overlapping, has overlapping speech and shifting context and is handling like physical interactions as well. [10:44] Thoughts? [10:45] So I feel like my main pain point with all AI stuff is anything like visual or spatial, like images, video. It's just like not caught up. So I'm glad that someone is like dedicated to this. I also feel like the being recognized when you come on camera is like, we need that for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Kate's job can be easier because then things can just happen automatically based on like what we're doing. Yeah. I also... [11:14] This is more infrastructural, but I know artists who are using... They're farther up the stack, I guess. But they're also doing things where things are paying attention. The AI is paying attention to your conversation, and it's giving you... [11:28] the mood of the conversation or it's giving you some sort of sentimental information about what's going on. Yeah. And then like participating in the conversation in much more. [11:37] I guess, less intrusive ways. Yeah. But their goal is always to reduce latency too. Okay. Like the fast response is like, I feel like really important, but it's also funny because that's,

[11:48] Like, [11:48] I don't know that I want my AI at all times to seem like a human. Like, that's not really necessarily, like, a priority for me, but I like, like, the video and visual stuff for sure. Okay, but I also think that you are someone who... [12:01] likes... [12:03] like interacting with a computer oh like that's part of the bit obsessed yeah okay oh oh you mean like as opposed to like i like that it's a computer instead of a human yeah like you're like this is kind of fun this is a part of it for me is that yeah yeah i would say that's true yeah i think there's a lot of other people who are absolutely freaked out by that yeah and [12:21] will need that to feel completely obfuscated in order to [12:26] engage with it daily in like a [12:28] consistent way yeah totally okay yeah i think like insofar as i have fears about ai they're like sort of related to that like like blurring the line between i agree human interaction and computer interaction yeah yeah um like bring it on but if i had to be scared of something then it would be that that would be the one you choose um i am rooting for her i'm rooting for her she's um [12:50] feels like a close personal friend to me for no other reason. If not now, then a week from now, a month from now. Yeah, exactly. Okay. That's the, that's what she's up to. I am just going to check to make sure that this person hasn't texted me. Who's coming to this live stream. Okay. The other thing. [13:08] that I want to say is not to center a man in the conversation, but that is what I'll do briefly, is for those who do not know, Elon Musk, [13:17] Brought a civil suit against Sam Altman and open AI that is currently in trial in San Francisco or in.

[13:25] in Silicon Valley somewhere. And it is [13:29] provided so much fodder for the timeline. And some of that is... [13:36] around when Sam Altman was removed by the board from being the CEO of OpenAI. Right. I actually thought it was all that. I didn't even know that there was other context. Oh, really? That's the only thing I'm seeing. Yeah, it's about that. Basically, Sam Altman, basically Elon Musk is saying Sam Altman, like, [13:55] stole OpenAI as a, like that it was a nonprofit and, um, [14:00] Elon Musk put all this money into it under that reality. And then basically Sam Altman was like, actually, never mind. And so Elon is trying to get him removed as the CEO and have basically open AI. [14:13] converted back into a nonprofit. So that's sort of like what this civil [14:18] cases about. And in all that, there's all this evidence being brought up around sort of like the character of... [14:26] Sam Altman and like basically how duplicitous he was in the, [14:32] in like his ambitions around what opening I would be. So one of the main stories is obviously when he was removed and the board decided that he was untrustworthy anyway. [14:42] Part of that is like these texts between him and Mira Moradi, who was the CTO at the time, who was in the board meeting. And he's like asking her. [14:52] How's it going? Like, what are they thinking? Just and then kind of panic texting her and being like, how bad is it? Like directionally. And she responds very bad. He's like, OK. And like there's all these iconic basically like text messages between him and her and him and a bunch of other people and really hit the timeline like a ton of bricks last week. Yeah. Well, my thing is, I think I only saw the fake ones.

[15:22] Island, like, I don't know, some, like, joke about him being gay. Like, I didn't see, like, any of the actual real stuff. Okay, okay, okay. So that's why I, like, didn't even know what it was about. Well, the format of these text messages, it's actually really hard to... [15:36] Like to decipher what is real and fake because the format is so perfect for memeing. Yeah, yeah. It's like the easiest. You can replicate it so easily. Yes. [15:44] Yeah, but was the idea that, like, who's... [15:48] side was she on? Was she trying to be actually giving him good information so that he could navigate a better... It seems like he had no control in the situation anyway, so he was just kind of crushing out. He was kind of crushing out. I think that he... [15:59] It wasn't the... [16:01] Like she replaced him as CEO, but very good day or something like a day. And I do not think she wanted that like at all. And I think that she is perfect. I don't know. There's a lot of stuff that comes out about this woman and I'm going so hard in the pain on her. But I do think that she was trying to like. [16:19] play the middle. And I think that they knew that she was in, I, I think it was like, you are going to be communicating with Sam. Like, I don't think that she was like secretly texting him on the side. Right. Because I think he was like, can I come in and at one point, I think he asked, can I come in and like plead my case? And she was like, they don't want you here. And so like, she must have been [16:38] It must have been an open thing. Yeah, totally. It wasn't. Yeah, okay. Okay, we have five minutes until the next guest is supposed to be here. And come on. And... [16:48] I feel like you should maybe give me some context on...

[16:53] All I see here is Jake Shane, Casey Musgraves, which... [16:57] Yeah, I mean, yeah, well, the best thing we could ever do is roll the clip. Do we have the clip? Okay, yeah, let's do that. Let's give everyone context. [17:05] Can I ask you what your favorite song or maybe like a favorite lyric that you've ever written is? Why are you doing this to me? I just, I have to. That's a toxic question. I know, but I have to. Something you're most proud of. [17:18] Oh, man. I relate to all of them for so many different reasons. I mean... [17:23] Like, [17:24] I don't know why a hookup scene just came to mind. I, like, really, really love that song so much. I think ultimately... [17:30] Maybe slow burn. I think it feels the best. [17:34] I feel like I'm at home in my... [17:37] dead center whenever I'm playing that song. Always. My favorite line from that song, obviously, is... [17:45] The sun's going down, but in Beijing they're headed out to work. What do you mean by that? Me and Manny, who I work with, debate it every single day. Really? Yeah. It's not like a deep-coded thing. I know. This one isn't. So what does that mean to you? It literally just means what it means. [18:03] It just means they're going to work. [18:05] And I'm over here, like, the sun's going down in Tennessee, and, like, over there across the world, people are, like, it's a different day, and they're, like... [18:13] going to work and starting their next day and, like, I'm over here. And it was very, like, stream of conscience. Like, I wasn't putting a lot of thought in. Like, it just, like, kind of came out. You know what I mean? Because I was just picturing. I was sitting on my porch in Tennessee and picturing these people around the world, like,

[18:30] Doing their thing over there, you know, it's like the world just keeps turning and. [18:35] Yeah. And you're all right with a slow burn. And I am all right with a slow burn. [18:39] And God, I love that song. That's the album. Everything you do is just brilliant. Thank you. [18:47] Wow, thank you, Jake Shane, for that amazing line of questioning for Kacey Musgraves. Okay, I've not seen this clip. [18:57] I'm sorry. [18:58] Can you buzz again? [19:00] We're doing a bit of logistics at the moment. We're doing logistical... [19:06] Okay, maybe actually do you just want to take this? [19:10] Coordinate? Okay. Can you explain what's going on? Yes. So the vibe is Casey Musgraves. She releases a kind of, well, she releases a single. She releases an album. Yes. And so she does a press tour as one does. Only as God intended. On her press tour, she visits the beloved podcaster, Jake Shane. Yes. Jake Shane. I actually didn't see the interview, so I don't really know what the context of the whole interview is. But the most iconic question is he asks for the meaning of the following lyric. [19:40] Thank you. [19:40] Thank you. [19:40] Which is from a Casey Musker song. [19:43] In Tennessee, the sun's going down, but in Beijing, they're heading out to work. [19:49] So the idea is, like, he wants to know what this lyric means. Do you have any guesses, maybe, of what this lyric could mean? Just that there's a different time zone, potentially. Yeah, okay. We're low-key, like, recreating the interview because that is exactly what Casey Musgraves said. And so the discourse online was, like,

[20:07] Basically, oh, why did he ask that question? That's such a bad question. Like, of course, it's very straightforward and obvious what that means. Right. [20:13] And people were getting really mad about it. And I think, like, he catches a lot of flack because... [20:17] his interview style is like very [20:19] Like he's really just having like a normal conversation. Like that's my impression of his interview style. Yeah. It was like, I think people maybe get the impression that he's unprepared or something like that. I think it's amazing. Totally. And I'm like, [20:32] the job of the artist is to make meaning from nothing. Right. And like Jake Shane literally asking like, [20:39] someone to interpret a very literal statement is like asking, inviting Casey to add layers and layers of meaning to something that might not. Yes. [20:49] have a lot of meaning at face value. And so in a way, podcastliness is close to godliness because he is like – [20:58] The person that is truly creating value. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And people are mad because they want him to start with something. For sure. And they're jealous because he started with nothing. And he made something interesting and we're talking about it. And people online are talking about it. Uh-huh. And he didn't even write the damn song. Like, he asked a question. Okay. I feel pretty. Hi. How's it going? Okay. I have a few things to say here. [21:23] And I just have to acknowledge that we are going to be... [21:28] changing gears into stable coins in mere moments. But I just have to say, [21:35] Casey Musgraves.

[21:37] It's her fault. [21:39] That this went the way that it went. Wait, why? Because... [21:43] Exactly as you're saying, like, [21:46] Have she wrote the lyric? [21:48] Which is... [21:50] totally i like oh i see what you're saying yeah like it's totally fine like it's a totally it's it's a [21:56] it's a thought that became a song. Right. And then Jake is trying to, exactly as you're saying, give her an opportunity. [22:05] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Just like unpack, like go deeper. And she could, she couldn't. And that's okay. But like, it's not on him. It's on her. [22:14] Yeah. Okay. So, well, I actually, I'm going to push back on that because I think that it's totally fine for him to ask the question. I think it's also kind of fine for her to not go deeper into the meaning if it doesn't mean more to her. I think if he's going to bring it up and she's not... [22:28] bringing any more information, then he should have some sort of theory or like further commentary on it. Like, I think if you're going to bring it up, you need to have some substance. Yes. And so I would say maybe that was where he could have taken that. But I'm also kind of like, [22:42] It was really interesting because it was a nothing burger. And then it went viral. So I actually think that that is his magic. [22:50] is like mass appeal. [22:52] Yeah, well, I think it's that you can see yourself. Like, if I interviewed Casey Musker, it's like, I would low-key ask that. Like, it feels aspirational. It makes anything feel possible. Totally, totally. Okay, I feel like we can revisit this again after the interview. But I think we should switch. Let's do a swap, y'all. Let's talk about something more serious. Ruben, come on down. You're going to be sitting where he's at.

[23:17] I'm just going to pull up. [23:20] How's it going? [23:22] It's good to see you. Good to see you. Okay, let me pull up your bio here. [23:30] You've got to really... [23:31] impressive situation that you've been building for many years. [23:35] Thank you. Like how long have you been CEO of Airtium? [23:40] For 12 years. Wow, crazy. Okay. I know. So Ruben Steckle, co-founder and CEO of Airtam. Airtam is a digital wallet for emerging markets, 500 payment methods across 190 countries. Last year, you guys processed a billion dollars in transactions. Is that correct? [23:59] A bit more. A bit more. Oh, flex. Okay, cool. Mostly cross-border payments to digital workers that work for companies like YouTube and Twitch, Scale AI, Fiverr, among a few. And we're going to talk about the state of stable coins, the last mile problem, and your plans for sort of the rest of the financial services stack. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. It's super exciting. I met you in... [24:27] Rio at the Meridian, Stellar Meridian Conference. Yeah. And that was like my first exposure to Airtam. And then I was like, oh, wow, they're doing a lot. [24:37] You guys are up to step. It's been a very long time. I mean, 12 years in crypto is a lifetime, basically. It's a lifetime in any industry. Yeah, true, true. Okay, so I want to start with stablecoins.

[24:51] So for... [24:53] Some people, stablecoins has sort of been this like, [24:56] inevitability. And I think that [25:00] with everything that's happening in the US and some of the regulatory changes over the last few years, or really the last year, it's becoming mainstream in and around sort of companies here based in the US. But I think that you guys have been doing this for a long time and have a lot more context on sort of how people have been using stable coins beyond just after the Genius Act. So I'm curious... [25:24] Like, I'm not. [25:25] And your vantage point right now, if you were to think about 10 years from now, [25:30] What do you think... [25:32] the percentage of global cross-border payments will be in stablecoins? 100%. 100%? That's a crazy number. That's crazy. It's an inevitability, I think. Okay. You really don't think that there'll be... [25:46] you think we're on a path that will just continue going down? [25:49] 100%. There's no other way. I think that [25:54] Well, stablecoin payments are a lot more efficient. They're faster, they're cheaper. [25:59] And it also seems like [26:03] It's going to be... [26:05] A self-fulfilling prophecy. Like everyone is so bullish on them that we're all going to make it happen together. Okay. Even if that's the aspiration or if that's not. [26:14] I don't think anyone's like saying, you know, 10 years, 100% payments are going to be flowing on stablecoins, but... [26:20] with like MasterCard going in so heavy and Stripe growing so fast by themselves and going in so heavy.

[26:28] Everyone's just... [26:30] looking to see how they can get a little piece of the action. I think that's what's going to make it happen. Okay. And – [26:37] So my understanding of what – [26:40] Like, [26:40] what you guys do and how people are using your product is [26:44] I'm like a creator in Mexico City and I'm getting paid out from YouTube. [26:50] What happens? [26:51] they're using you, what part of the process is on chain? What part of the process is still on legacy rails? Like how does that sort of all come together? [26:59] It's very funny. I was coming into this and I started hearing... [27:04] This discussion on pop culture, I'm like, oh, my God, what am I going to talk about? I know. I was like, you're like, oh, let's go into stable. The show has range. There's so much range. I like that. Wait, what was your question? I'm I. [27:20] Basically the intersection of culture and technology. I'm a YouTube creator in Mexico City. I'm getting paid out. Oh, yeah. Got it. [27:28] What is happening with you guys versus Legacy Rails? What's on chain? What's not? [27:34] So right now, a lot of people who live in very faraway countries are used to getting paid on PayPal. [27:41] Mm-hmm. [27:42] Or another wallet. [27:43] And all these other walls are PayPal. They're not... [27:48] They're not focused on like their long tail market, you know, they're like focused on their biggest markets that represent like 80 percent of volume. [27:54] And then they do as good a job as they need to do for the rest of the world. And that just means that a whole bunch of people...

[28:01] In this case, you asked about the YouTube creator that work online. [28:06] They're getting like a fast service. [28:08] Yeah. Which which is not great because that means they take a while to withdraw the money they earn, probably not getting the best exchange rate. They're probably not getting access to the local payment method they need to use to pay whatever they need to pay. [28:23] And so by focusing on [28:27] This last mile, [28:28] the long tail of customers, we aim to give them [28:34] you know, like first class financial services. And you're talking specifically about one use case, which is the online worker. And we really, really think that [28:44] There's such a worthy... [28:48] you know, people, the online worker, we call them digital entrepreneurs, and we do focus a ton on them. [28:53] but we also serve as... [28:55] People that need to save, invest, send remittance, buy something online. [29:00] because... [29:03] receiving an online payment from YouTube is one thing. [29:07] use case but there's there's so many issues with money around the world and so yeah [29:11] We just want to solve all of them, you know? Yeah. Okay. So... [29:16] A billion dollars. I mean, clearly with a billion dollars. It's like $3 billion in like on-chain payments. Wait, $3 billion? Last year? Yeah, yeah. Alone? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. Three times the amount that I had seen online. Yeah. [29:29] Clearly that's not just a digital worker. That's remittances. It's all these other categories that you're talking about. And, um,

[29:36] I'm curious, like... [29:38] are they experiencing your product as a crypto product or are they just seeing this as like this is the way I move money around? [29:45] It's just the way they move money around. Okay. And... [29:50] I think there's a lot of conversation around, specifically around stable coins that I think most people think of as like USDC or USDT or something like that. But there's all these local stable coins as well. So like the Mexican peso or the Colombian peso. And can you just give me like a, [30:07] ELL 5, like 101 on like local... [30:12] stable coins and why and how those exist and how they relate to the [30:18] USDC or something like that. For sure. So I think right now what we see is that [30:24] The U.S. dollar... [30:26] or the stable conversion of the US dollar has become... [30:30] The main way to originate payments. Okay. [30:33] People are people in enterprises, small and medium businesses. They're saying, hey. [30:38] let's use this, originate payments, rather than originating wire transfer with, yeah, let's just send stable coins. And that's why you have... [30:46] Bridge and BVNK and ZeroHash growing a tonne. [30:50] there are [30:52] pushing this migration. And that's great. You know, you can... [30:56] all of a sudden send a dollar-like email and it lands halfway across the world. [31:01] And someone could receive it as a dollar. And that's awesome. It's awesome also because it's portable. You could take it from wallet A to wallet B, wallet C. It's your money. It's like virtual cash.

[31:13] There is one problem, though, with that, which is, [31:17] That dollar still needs to get converted into whichever currency you need to use to spend your money. And there's, you know... [31:25] 190 currencies in the world or 200 as many as countries. Some countries are dollarized or [31:31] They use another country's currency, so it's less than 202 or whatever. [31:37] Um, but anytime you, you need to do this conversion, [31:41] It's expensive. Yeah. It was expensive. [31:44] For PayPal to do it, it's expensive for you as a retail customer to figure it out with your own stablecoin, whatever that's. [31:50] whether that's a USDT or USDC or some other global stablecoin. [31:55] And so I think that the next paradigm is... [31:58] accepting that dollars are a great way to send me a payment, but they're not a great way to finalize a payment. [32:07] where if you need to pay someone... [32:10] in your country, in pesos, in Bolivars, in Kwanzaa, whatever, you want to use that money. And at the same time, we... [32:20] can't on see the benefits of like, [32:23] changing some random token on chain for another random token on chain and how quick and easy that is. Money should be no different. And that's why we believe, I think, as an industry that local stable coins [32:37] need to be created. So that the exchange of that global stablecoin to that local stablecoin can happen on chain.

[32:44] and therefore, [32:46] then consumer could have, you know, a cheaper end-to-end remittance. And then I think the next [32:53] Frontier of that is when local stable coins could be used to [32:56] to buy something. [32:58] No. [33:00] In the world. But in your local country. Yeah. So you don't have to go from... [33:05] stablecoins to fiat. You can just stay in stablecoins. And clearly, not even in the US are we there. And the US is [33:13] I wouldn't say it's the home because I think most dollar stable coins live outside of the US. [33:19] But... [33:20] It's definitely the place where stablecoins have been [33:25] Thank you. [33:26] They have most institutional adoption. Yeah. And people here, they're not paying with stable coins. It's more like, [33:33] Coinbase is... [33:35] bridging the USDC to fiat transfer. [33:39] But ultimately, you're delivering a dollar, fiat dollar. You're not delivering a stable coin or USDC. And so I think we have a long way to go. However, adoption is growing tremendously. And so I think, yes, in 10 years, we'll be in a world where stable coins are originated and stable coins are delivered. [33:59] Okay. Um, [34:01] So, [34:02] Really quick. [34:03] Basically, like... [34:05] It operates the same way where... [34:07] A U.S. D.C. stablecoin is pegged to the U.S. dollar. It's the same for a Mexican peso. It's pegged to the local currency.

[34:15] Or some local bones or something. [34:18] Okay. We're not pegged to, but backed by. Backed by. Okay. We're pegged to the value of. Okay. And part of the reason why you have this conviction that. [34:28] by 2030 we'll all be [34:30] Just operating. By 2030? No. No. Okay. Give me 10 years. Give me a full 10 years. Okay. We're in 2026. Oh, my gosh. Right, right, right, right. Okay. So if that's the case, part of your conviction is coming from the institutional adoption. Like all of these companies have been making announcements around like Stripe, Visa, Robinhood. Everybody's talking about stable coins. Those are just to name a few. Do you see those... [34:55] incumbents as a threat to you, as tailwinds, a little bit of both. [35:00] Thank you. [35:01] So look, I wouldn't describe Airtiem as a stable co-neo bank, even though we – [35:09] offer everything from loans to debit, eventually credit cards, DeFi yield. We offer a lot of the [35:17] Revolut, who's a new bank, would offer. [35:20] But I more so see RTM as a... [35:24] The global stablecoin wallet. Okay. And that's because... [35:30] I'm very intentional with... [35:33] The outcome I think I see for Airtm given... [35:37] the belief that I have for stable coins in the world of payments, which is that eventually all payments will be originated in stable coins and will therefore need to land in stable coins. Okay. And I want Airtam to be that destination. Okay. Okay.

[35:50] wallet for that stable coin payment everywhere in the world. Because I do... [35:55] think you could draw a parallel with [35:58] the world of email today and how the industry looks like where you have [36:03] you know, a few providers and we're not going to switch. If you like in the future, you're going to [36:07] be settled with your stablecoin wallet and you're not going to switch. Okay. And I want AirTN to be one of those. Okay. The Gmail of stablecoins. Okay. And so I think in this... [36:19] long-winded answer to your question. Yeah. [36:21] But this is a major tailwind that institutions are adopting the origination of stable coins because that just means that there's going to be more flows that are happening. [36:33] native to [36:34] our way of receiving them. Yeah. And so... [36:38] I'm very excited to partner with Bridge, ZeroHash, BVNK, or any other to land their stable point payments because they're very strong here in the U.S. And we're like super strong in the global south. Yeah. So when you say – [36:53] that Airtam will be [36:56] the stablecoin wallet is and your vision of the future is it like [36:59] I'm Apple paying and it's, [37:02] Airtam and it's a USDC stablecoin when I'm like buying my coffee. [37:07] No. Okay. I think the U.S. market is like... [37:10] Thank you. [37:11] won by so many other super big companies. Okay. Amazing. We have... [37:18] No claim for this market. I think we more so want to be...

[37:25] the home for the virtual assets of the people that have a need to transact globally. Yeah. Wherever they live. Okay. And I want to give them that experience that you have as an American and you use, I don't know, Cash App and Square. Yeah. Right. Yeah. [37:41] Venmo, I guess there's a stack, right? You're like Czech and Privilege. I want that same experience to be available for... [37:49] people and businesses and, and, [37:51] big and small businesses and enterprises wherever they are. And we want to [37:59] Just continue making them the center of our attention. Yeah. Cool. And treating them, you know, as first class citizens. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. You guys last week announced Tala. Can you tell us a little bit about what that product is? Yeah, that's actually a super exciting product. [38:16] So first, tell us this... [38:19] I'm, [38:21] I don't know if you could say a microloan provider or... [38:25] they figured out a way to underwrite the risk of giving someone a loan without having any [38:33] any access to a very sophisticated platform, [38:38] you know, [38:39] credit bureau or credit score. Okay. Any in very random countries or not random to us, but [38:46] where there's not a lot of infrastructure or there wasn't when they begun. And they said, hey, we need to figure out a way to loan money to...

[38:57] to someone in a country without all this information. Okay. A lot of underbanked people were unbanked, period. [39:04] And, [39:06] They're now saying, hey... [39:08] We're very good at finding this money at... [39:12] assessing the risk of people, we don't necessarily need to originate this loan. [39:18] Where if AirTM is up for giving us access to some information, it's... [39:24] we can probably give a loan through ERQM to an end consumer. Okay. And so we're super excited to bring this to our market because – [39:34] in our market. [39:36] I think we're stuck at collateralized loans, right? [39:41] Like you have to back... [39:44] any loan with some asset and it's amazing and you could [39:48] you know, get a very low rate on your Bitcoin. [39:52] Yeah. By going to some DeFi place or whatever. [39:56] But most people don't have money to... [39:59] collateralize their loan, right? They have a liquidity crunch, they need money right now, and that's why they need a loan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's like, [40:09] huge overlap in between the issues that our customers face and the solution that Tala provides. And so we're super excited about. [40:17] to work with them. Plus, [40:19] Shivani, Saroya, Taleseo, [40:22] She's such an inspiration for me. She's amazing.

[40:27] Thank you. [40:28] She's like straight up good. Nice. Wow. I love that. And when you, these are loans across the board. They're not just mortgages, right? They're a loan for a variety of, um, [40:39] I don't know. For whatever you need it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically how it's working is that like... [40:45] Are you guys providing... [40:48] You guys aren't providing the collateral for it. You're basically saying like giving some context for who the... [40:55] uh, [40:56] who the person is that is requesting the loan. And then... [41:00] partnering with them so that they can provide the loan to that person. [41:03] Is that coming out? Yeah, exactly. So, [41:05] In a way, we're a platform for Tala to access customers. Nice. Okay, cool. And we... [41:12] are not going to present TALA to the customer. It's going to be Airtiem's loan, but effectively it's... [41:19] Tala doing it all in the background. Nice. That's awesome. Okay. So we're running up on time, but I, I would love to hear from you. Like, [41:28] What's the most broken part of the global payment system right now that most people don't talk about? [41:34] Thank you. [41:35] Thank you. [41:36] I think the global payment system has been under a microscope for such a long time because there's been so many entrepreneurs trying to solve it. And we've created there for like 17 layer one blockchains in payments. And so. [41:52] I don't know that any one part of the system is not examined. [41:55] I think it's more so like...

[41:59] There's a lot of people that are very far away from, [42:03] And they don't have access to a lot of the things that we take for granted here in the U.S., [42:09] And I think we... [42:12] man, we just need to keep going until they have access to, you know, [42:16] seamlessly receiving a payment or, you know, [42:20] Sending a payment or saving or investing or getting a loan. Yeah, and I [42:25] I frankly feel... [42:28] Like we're in the best time for the industry because there's so much infrastructure that's coming online that we could use and others to give better services and more connectivity to the global economy, to our customers in the ground. [42:40] And there's so many issues we have to solve. [42:44] around liquidity, [42:46] around tokenizing assets locally, [42:50] around education, [42:53] around distribution, which is probably the biggest challenge. [42:57] But, you know, one step at a time, we'll get there in 10 years, 100% of payments. Okay. Okay. You heard it here first. Thank you so much for coming on. I think what you guys are doing is truly, like, so... [43:10] admirable and useful and I think there's a lot in this industry that feels [43:15] I don't know, sort of like, what? Like, that's a problem. And I don't feel that way at all about what you guys are doing. And it's really nice to see like, the connection to real people and their daily lives. And honestly, one of the things that [43:27] got me into crypto is this idea that more, just more access for more people around the world to their own money. So thank you for coming on. So nice. I'm so glad I met you in Rio months ago. And can't wait to see what happens. You were carrying like three martinis. Okay, we don't have to get into that. Okay, on that note, see you later. Thanks for having me. Okay, quasi come back.

[43:57] Bye. See you later. [44:00] Okay, we are going to... [44:03] Yeah, for 10 minutes about a conspiracy theory that you have. Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. [44:08] Okay, let's see. Da-da-da. [44:12] I... [44:14] Thank you. [44:15] Okay, do we want to get into your conspiracy theory? What are other options? Okay, corporate people are going religious? I think I don't really have that much to say on that. I'd rather just do the conspiracy maybe. Okay, so um, [44:28] I just have to say, for the record, this is not news. Just like PSA. Well, it's sort of news about what's going on in my head right now, I would say. Exactly. Yeah, which is like, I don't know. To say that that's not news is a little bit offensive to me, but... [44:45] Yeah. Okay. Just like some people watch the show for information. [44:50] This is a particular type of information. This is information that's sort of personal to me. From your heart. Yes. Okay. So give it to us. What's going on? Okay. So... [45:00] you [45:01] People were discussing this tweet from 2022 where someone identified that after the coronavirus pandemic, there would be a hantavirus pandemic, which is now, you know, on the precipice of perhaps occurring. Who can say? [45:13] Okay. [45:14] I feel like I'm just going to put my hand up when when misinformation. Oh, yeah. OK, so I guess to be clear, my my exposure to Hantavirus is through like, I don't know, a few tweets and some AI generated videos and things like that. I don't really know anything about, you know, how contagious it is, how deadly it is, how it occurred. Other than that, I know that some old people were birdwatching in a dump, basically. And then now the world's like over, I guess. So my co-host here doesn't read my newsletter because on Friday I wrote an entire newsletter debunking.

[45:44] the virus spreading globally, but that's okay. Well, I will say later. Okay. Let's, let's like hypothetically, hypothetically, I'm interested in the truth. Let's, let's just imagine. Imagined. [45:54] I don't think I would read the Boys Club newsletter. Like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say it. Like, I probably would watch, like... [46:01] Like, I actually, I don't know what I would do. I've never thought about what I, how, where I would find the truth before. Okay. I'm so unconcerned. Okay. Continue. [46:09] Anyway, okay. [46:10] So 2002 is when this theory was first surfaced by a random account. [46:14] What else happened in 2022? [46:17] The release of chat GPT. [46:19] Mm-hmm. [46:20] So the theory is... [46:23] A lot of people are scared of AI. Yep. Due to the popularity of ChatGPT and among other models and consumer products, I think that Hantavirus was planted by Sam Altman. [46:36] And that's probably his Twitter account. And it was planted by him in order to distract people because society needs something to be scared of, right? Okay. So it's like, okay, everyone's scared of AI. Well... [46:45] I don't make money if people are scared of AI. I make money if people embrace AI. So I'm going to give them something else to be scared about. A virus. Yeah. So Sam Altman architected the spread of this Hantavirus. Okay. Wow. I have some things to say. One. [47:00] Not true. [47:03] Two, I love it. I love it as an idea. I think people should be thinking as critically about the world as you are. Right. Like, no one wants to connect the dots, it seems. Everyone's just kind of, like, reading the Boys Club newsletter and being like, oh, yeah, sure, this is true.

[47:19] Okay, that's fair. [47:20] I will say. [47:22] I do believe that. [47:24] Oh, okay. I do believe that... [47:27] there's a world where something like this could happen. [47:31] And we're living in it. [47:33] I agree. And we are not. And we are not. Okay. Just so people know, the Hantavirus... [47:41] did begin in a dump in Argentina. [47:45] Okay. A bird watch, not a dump. A landfill, I think it was. No, it was like a bunch of Canadians, I believe went bird watching somewhere in Argentina in a town. I can't remember, but they went there and, [47:57] One of them got exposed to [47:59] wrapped droppings, inhaled it. [48:02] How? [48:03] Great question. Like, I'm just like. Yeah, how close do you have to be? What do you have to do for that? Anyway, whatever. Disgusting. I'm just like, people need to wash their hands more is the lesson here. Yeah. I want to know what type of rare bird they were pursuing. Like what bird can be found only in that dump? You can find that out. Okay. Yeah. I'll research after. Yeah. You can ask. [48:20] You can ask. Yeah. And then they got on a cruise. [48:24] They all went on a cruise together. Yeah. And one of them was infected. And then essentially from that one infection, it's like nine people actually got it. [48:37] So far. Okay. So it seems highly contagious. Okay. No. [48:43] You know why I feel so strongly about this is because I am not quarantining again. I'm, I am not quarantining.

[48:51] I mean, if it harms other people, [48:55] I care about other people, all that, whatever. I will say all the things that... Whatever you have to say. [49:00] Okay, I know I don't want to be a business conscience, but like I can't do it again. [49:05] I can't do it again. Yeah, totally fair. I'm a social person. You know, I'm not an introvert. [49:10] Yeah, you've got to be outside. I've got to be out there. I've got to be on the streets. I've got to be seeing people. [49:15] And so I just need people to know that there are nine confirmed cases. Okay. [49:20] on the cruise. [49:22] three people did die. Okay. But one of them, it's only confirmed that they died from the virus. The [49:32] They just died on a cruise. Yeah, okay. They could be. Options. I don't know. Anyway, there is information about how the virus spreads in the Boys Club newsletter. Please put up the two online. Okay, you can subscribe and you can read. I'm going to leave you guys on a cliffhanger. I did a play-by-play. [49:50] And maybe the conspiracy theory that I lay out is yours. Maybe what I laid out is the best theory. [49:57] most accurate information that currently exists about what happened as of Friday of last week. So that's another thing. Okay. Yeah. I'll read it and catch up and make sure I know what's going on. One thing I did just think of is like, okay, so say this is a real threat. One thing we could do is like be concerned about it and like quarantine. Another thing we could do is be concerned about it and kill all the rats. [50:17] Like, finally, we have, like, a real, like, actual reason. Like, let's get the mayor to kill the rats and the mice and stuff like that. And then we won't have to worry about it. Well, actually, that doesn't make sense because if humans have it, then they'll give it to each other. Okay, well, we don't need to. We'll acknowledge that. Narratively, kill the rats. Okay. Eric Adams.

[50:34] And I, this is one thing that we... [50:37] we saw eye to eye on. He was really anti-rat. [50:40] And I was like, I would maybe... [50:43] Run it back just if he could solve that problem, which is a crazy thing to say, but something... [50:49] I would have potentially done. That was my main goal. [50:54] You're a one issue voter. I'm a single issue voter in New York City and it's the rats. Okay, yeah. That makes sense. Okay. [51:01] Crazy transition here. We're going to bring up our next guest, Prince. [51:06] Come on down. [51:08] I'm super excited to talk with you. Hi. [51:12] So nice to meet you. How's it going? Come on in. I'm Natasha. Nice to meet you. Matt. [51:19] Okay, so Prince is, you're doing some really cool stuff. I'm just going to pull up your bio here. Okay, you are leading growth and forward deployed creative at Luma. Luma is an AI company focused on creative media generation. You are creative yourself, have a bunch of creative projects out in the world. [51:40] music, a documentary, you have a community called Mission Athletic Club that's [51:46] for civic wellness, which is very cool. Welcome to the show. Yes. Thanks for having me. And you're based in SF, right? Yes. The mission. The mission. Okay. Fun. Okay. There's a lot that I want to get into, but first, what is creative media generation? Creative media generation. It's magic. Okay. Cool. It's magic. You type something out, it produces a piece of content, nice image or video,

[52:16] So, [52:17] It's essentially based on a bunch of training data. [52:21] And then that's used to basically bring together based off the reference material, what an image or video would look like. Similar to ChatGPT or Claude, but just for image or video. Okay. And live stream. [52:35] Oh, cool. Okay, cool. So the idea is that the inputs of the prompt can be images and video. Lots of different images and video. And then the output is also image and video. Yeah, it keeps developing over time. Initially, it was just text to... [52:46] text to image, then it became image to image, then it became text to video, then image to video, and then video to video is like one of the new, they're called hybrid production. [52:58] And, [52:59] Luma, from what I've played around with the tool, and it's amazing, I think part of what is... [53:05] really I find compelling about it is that [53:09] Yeah, I go in. Actually, we can pull up a photo. I went in yesterday and I was like, woman in Brooklyn drinking a Diet Coke. And... [53:19] It's so realistic. And I know that image generation has come a long way since, I don't know, a few years ago. And we do a lot of it at Boys Club. That's really fun. But I was like, oh, this is... [53:31] next level. And part of what is incredible about it is like, then you're sort of living inside of a tool. Like Luma is also sort of like, [53:39] figma maybe you guys don't want me to say that but no no no that's an easy comparison in like how you can like [53:45] storyboard it and play around with it and genuinely felt like, whoa, we're on the we're into something totally new here. And I'm curious about your role there. I think like your title.

[53:57] leading growth and forward deployed creative. [53:59] Break that down for us. What does that mean? So I started in the growth arena, which is right. Growth has many meetings. You know, it's like growing user base at the core. It's also growing like the operations within the team. But generally it's like, you know, [54:15] everything tied to analytics and metrics. So that's kind of where I started in the org, mostly for enterprise. So we were a consumer company initially. I came on one of the first go-to-market enterprise people to figure out, [54:26] How do we, you know, [54:28] bring these tools to professional creatives in Hollywood for brands and for agencies. Okay. And so that's the gross side of it. And then while being in there, a way to grow into... [54:39] basically get these professional creatives to use it is that, you know, I'm sure you've heard about enablement and adoption. Yeah. Right. So you have people generally don't know how to use it. [54:50] And so this whole forward deployed creative thing came about where enterprise customers and professional creatives just need basically to walk through it. They need some handholding. Yeah, they need some handholding. And this stuff happened back in the day with Adobe Photoshop to VFX tools and where it took a much longer time to adopt because there's a whole new system. And so in today's world where everyone has their actual job to do, why would I try a new tool when I could do the job with the tool I have? [55:20] Like stuff is supposed to save us time, but we end up working more. But yeah, so with limited time, you know,

[55:27] enterprises and businesses just need support. So we have a whole team of four to play creatives, which are, you know, ex creative directors, you know, VFX artists, you know, on our team, it's a, uh, [55:41] a wide range of creatives. You know, we have Kit who worked on SpongeBob and Rick and Morty. Oh, we were just talking about SpongeBob. Okay. Wow. We love SpongeBob. We do. You know, Alexia Donna, she was the creative director over at Foot Locker and then worked in Edelman as their creative technology specialist. Okay. You know, we have Sky Hans who was like a brand creator at Amazon and also worked at a startup. Yeah. So it's a range of people. Cool. And what's [56:09] the most... [56:11] Common mistake or feedback that because I imagine there's a mix of people who are really excited about these tools and feel like an immense need for them and don't want to get left behind, want to be more efficient in their businesses, all of that. [56:24] And then also, I'm sure... [56:27] fear and pushback and, um, [56:30] Yeah, a lack of understanding of how this amplifies the work as opposed to replaces it. And so, yeah, what are those conversations looking like with... [56:40] these enterprises and creative agencies like what's the most common thing you're hearing [56:43] Yeah, definitely. I mean, [56:45] You know, so there's a range of things. So I've always been a new category. I was in like social media. [56:50] Pretty early. Early days. I literally went to Hollywood to be like, hey, y'all, we need to change the distribution game. Get on Instagram. We love to start shooting. Well, at the time, it was Twitter and Facebook, ironically. Okay, okay. And then Instagram, of course, YouTube, all the things. I worked at a development company acquiring IP rights from YouTube holders because it's a KDEV distribution. How do we reverse your order?

[57:12] literally studio heads were like, get out of my office. What are you doing? Managers are like, you're not going to take [57:17] You're not going to take my rights. Right. Because it was a system that was built on distribution. [57:22] And so, you know, have those conversations then. I was in crypto previously. Oh, nice. Cool. A lot of, you know. Oh, you've been on the cutting edge the whole time. Okay. So you're used to people being like, I'm scared of this. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the living mean, you know, the crypto.ai pipeline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then now I'm in AI, same, you know, so working in Hollywood, I obviously called a bunch of my friends up. I've been there for a little over a year. [57:47] a year ago, called them all up, directors, producers, writers, and I was like, "Hey, [57:55] Like, please don't talk about this. Okay. And it's just like, it was everyone, you know, about six months ago. [58:02] started like texting me back being like yo prince like can you actually talk about this yeah and you know in the past three months it's been pretty crazy because i think okay [58:10] The landscape has changed, right? Like obviously you look in the feed and you just see like a slop cannon. Yeah. And the algorithm is designed for this like, you know, mania and intensity to be able to get reactions. But you don't see the good stuff. And for two reasons, right? I think it's the algorithm. [58:29] But I think second, like there's just a lot less creators who have adopted. [58:34] And then the good stuff just isn't getting seen because you just don't know it's AI. [58:38] Yeah. And so that's the irony of it. Enterprises, like consistency is one of the main things.

[58:44] That's a huge question. Like, can you make this thing consistent? Obviously, when you have a brand involved, you have a Hollywood studio. They want to make sure that, like... [58:52] You know, uh, [58:53] There's like the amount of threads, the amount of rings on your pants. And so, be able to keep that continuity and consistency across an entire set of images or videos. That's a key component. [59:05] Obviously, the IP and training is a huge factor. [59:10] which there's a bunch of different people who do it differently. At Luma we definitely do licensed, commercially licensed property. [59:20] Is it fair to say that a lot of the initial pushback was based on the capabilities of the software rather than like, [59:27] the the economic effects like the fear that people would lose their jobs and stuff like that like [59:32] I think it's all the above. Okay. Yeah. Like, I mean, there's real concern, right, as these things adopt. [59:38] It is interesting, like the highest adoption has come from VFX people actually. They face this first, right? Yeah. When Hollywood came out, you know... [59:48] everything from Jurassic Park to Avatar. [59:51] really changed how [59:54] There were set designers who were clay makers who were doing things and then inevitably, you created a lot more jobs. [1:00:01] I don't necessarily think... [1:00:03] And I'm sure what that's going to look like in this era. But I do think that it's going to be like, [1:00:08] a lot of new jobs. [1:00:10] Like, [1:00:11] I have this hunch that product designers and brand designers are actually going to be the most unique, uniquely positioned. Because, right, they have this, like, creative vision, they know how to use these tools, and then now they can do video. So it's going to create, like, a lot of generalists to be able to use these tools. Even people who might not have that brand taste, they also, you know, can be able to use the tools to...

[1:00:33] to do things... [1:00:34] small businesses, even businesses. So I think it's going to [1:00:38] Give a lot of people, you know, a lot of agency. Okay, so... [1:00:42] Will AI take creative jobs? I don't think so. Okay. Yeah, definitely not. Okay. You know, there's a whole taste conversation. You know, we had dinner grimes and she was like, obviously talking about taste the entire time. And so, uh, yeah. [1:00:56] Yeah, it's just like, I don't think we're there yet. Yeah. I don't think we're going to be there for a while. [1:01:01] At the end of the day, sure, some people will make stuff like that is going to have one or two people, but the best stuff is going to need [1:01:11] especially on like a, you know, a really good commercial or in a film, you're still going to need a set designer. Like literally like, you know. Physically make things happen. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it may be like less physical, but they still need to be able to like identify what is the furniture that's going to be on scene. Right. You know, what are the clothes? What's the color tone? Yeah. You're going to need production designers. You're going to need stylists. Like you still need vision. Yeah, yeah. You still need vision. [1:01:41] and [1:01:41] and things like that. But I think there's going to be [1:01:44] possibly a lot more content being able to be made [1:01:47] and more opportunities for people to create things together. So I love an abundance mindset. We love to hear, we love to hear that. Are you, [1:01:58] Thinking about slop and, [1:02:01] And how would you define slop? Yeah, I mean, for sure.

[1:02:06] You like to call it the slop canon. Okay, yeah, I love that term. Yeah, I mean, it's inevitable, right? I mean, this happened in the early days of like... [1:02:13] blogging and you know it's it's half [1:02:18] it's inevitable. Like SEO came out and just, it, it, [1:02:21] And there were people doing it. Now it's just machines. Obviously, it's at a much larger scale. Yeah. You know, hopefully, like these agents figure out how to like get rid of the slot. [1:02:31] You know, I guess, how would I define it? [1:02:34] It's trash. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. If you look at it and think trash, then it's slop. Is that the... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I guess, right? Is there any slop that you have... It's probably worse than trash. Because slop is just like... It's gross. It's like... It's actually a new... [1:02:51] a worse thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's worse. It's a lower low. It's like the lowest. Is there any stuff that you've seen that you... [1:02:59] Whether you wanted to or not, like... [1:03:01] watched and we're kind of like locked in on.

[1:04:02] Also, it's a way to raise a lot of money and... [1:04:07] He then creates... [1:04:21] All of these AI ads. Insane AI ads. They're like obviously sloppy. Like he's not trying to hide it. He's not... [1:04:28] What is their slop trait? Like, are they just overly dramatic? Like Los Angeles burning. Oh, okay. Like that type of thing. Right? Like. Yeah. I mean, it's like. Like Skid Row. This is crazy. Like, they're just like, they're ridiculous. Yeah. Okay. But they're like, they have taken over the timeline. I'm sure also if you live in California, even more so, like it's a discourse that's happening because he's running in California. But okay. That's a really good one. Did you see any of the AI Fruit dating show? Love Island AI Fruit? No, I have not. Okay. [1:04:58] Oh, I've seen many of these. Okay. Really bad. Honestly, horrible, but unable to release me from the grip of watching it, which scares me because I'm like, oh, man. It's the same thing as, like, reality TV, I think, where you're like, this is bad for my brain. This is bad for society. Yeah. [1:05:18] Am I going to sit down and watch 12 hours of it? Maybe. And like that's what happens. And I think maybe with the more, with the ability to create an ending amount of content, maybe we'll all have a little bit more, I don't know, thoughtfulness about content.

[1:05:34] what we're consuming. [1:05:35] That's useful. That's like a hopeful take, I guess. I do think with the AI fruit video, so it's basically just like generated videos of fruit doing, like having crazy drama basically. And I think like the badness of the visuals highlights the, [1:05:49] the, [1:05:51] quality of the plot. I think oftentimes like the plot is so absurd that it's almost good that you [1:05:57] aren't fixated on the visuals i see so like in a way the slop is like illuminating the sleigh [1:06:05] so maybe i don't know maybe we'll see more of that maybe it will help our curatorial efforts to have more slop nice yeah because then we'll have to ask ourselves why is this slop so popular and then we'll figure out some of it maybe isn't slop i will say there's like some artists who are intentionally making slop yeah and it's fun yeah so that's different right i feel like intentionality in it but like you know when you're like oh my gosh i can be a filmmaker now [1:06:26] And then you're pumping out your stuff. It's the same thing that happened, like, with abstract art, where it's like, oh, I'm going to be intentionally obtuse about this thing to, like – [1:06:39] highlight the medium or highlight the process or whatever um okay so you're in new york this week because luma is supporting the artists and the machine creative summit is that correct yes okay can you tell us a little bit about what that is and yeah so it's like one of these like mini conferences about [1:06:54] 400 to 500 people. This is kind of large, but it used to be like 200 to 300. It's bringing together AI creators. [1:07:01] brands, agencies, and then technology companies. So a lot of talks, workshops. It's actually pretty heavily workshop-induced. Okay. Oh, that's awesome. In case people learn in real time from the creators themselves. Okay. And so we have a workshop in like an hour. Okay. Nice. Thanks for making it here. Yeah, of course. I'm glad to be here. But yeah, highly recommend. It's a good place to be. Cool. And what are some of the things I...

[1:07:28] that you're seeing either from the summit or just in the work that you're doing that you found like really inspiring and inspirational and I don't know, differentiated, I guess, across using some of these tools. Yeah, definitely. I mean, so I, [1:07:41] I think it's like when the artists learn how to use them, there's like an unlock of... [1:07:46] like in a creative, like a creative mode and kind of like allows, because, you know, a lot of VFX artists are saying like, I'd spend half my time like rendering and compositing. And really quick, FX artists are like animators? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep. Okay. Animators, you know, working on CGI. Okay. And so like these tools are unlocking them to actually just focus on the creative. Okay. You know, we, Robert Rodriguez, we did a thing with him down in South by, you know, [1:08:13] uh southwest which is called talk by ai uh people hated it or the name the name convention yeah but people love to talk yeah and robert uh you know grip as an illustrator and doing an editorial piece had daily cartoons and you know he's not a guy you can buy yeah he's just like his own right rebel without a crew and hearing him talk about how now taking his illustrations where [1:08:34] You know, he's like, I'm not a savant. He's like, I'm a solid drawer, sort of drawing these things, but could never animate them. And every time he passed off the animations to the animation team, it always took away the integrity that he wanted within the pieces. And so hearing him talk about now how he can actually do that. And so it's like someone who's a drawer can now like, [1:08:52] visualize their pieces. John Irwin, we used to do partnership with him in AWS.

[1:08:59] which basically he's trying to pawn this whole virtual production or hybrid production mode. [1:09:05] where they're using a virtual production screen like the Mandalorian. Okay. And then they're using our technology to do the performance capture. [1:09:12] And so what that basically means is not having to put all the dots on you to do an avatar. So now I can just like film me all here and switch your outfits, hair, entire background. [1:09:25] And so the fact that... [1:09:27] you know, to do each scene is quite significant. And on top of that, when you're doing it with a green screen, [1:09:32] Like there's no environment around you. So as an actor, there's kind of like a loss there and like what's going on. Totally. And so you're saying... [1:09:39] What was fascinating about it, he did not expect, was that he spent about 30% more time with the actors on the performances. Oh, wow. Okay. And so he was focusing on that piece of it, which you would never think that AI is actually bringing to the table. Yeah, yeah, totally. That's really interesting. Are you using these tools now? [1:09:55] Yes, I have to, you know. What are you up to? Like, what are you tinkering with at the moment? I do a lot of my tennis stuff for the club, which is pretty fun. So wait, yeah, tell us about your club. Yeah, admission up to our club. It's a volunteer-ran nonprofit in San Francisco. [1:10:09] um right trying to build civic wellness what does that mean and it's bringing together people from all different backgrounds creating accessible free tennis which is typically not uh yeah it's typically a country club sport we need that here so bad it's so hard to get a court here it's actually very annoying i'm gonna try if you can expand that to new york i would really appreciate it yeah i was literally like walking by one of the courts and i just had this house for them

[1:10:33] what if I became like the tennis star? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you should. [1:10:38] Yeah. And so we basically do free programming. You know, it's around 3000 members now in the past two and a half years. [1:10:45] and we basically, everyone's volunteer. I'm the executive director, non-paid, no one's paid, but the way the club runs- For the love of the game. Yeah, for the love of the game. For the court time. Basically started it, exactly. Basically started because I wanted to play more tennis, and then someone was like, "What do we call this thing one day?" [1:11:03] And I was like, all right, let me actually think about that. My background is in creating brands. So I was like, all right, if I had to do something, been in a bunch of different communities and I was like, all right, this is an opportunity to shape a community in which I think would be fun and exciting, but also just bring value to the community. [1:11:19] And so, you know, Mission Athletic Club, yeah, it's about building civic wellness. Cool. And so. All my coolest friends in San Francisco. [1:11:28] were mutuals with your club. So I was like, oh, okay. That's cool. Shoutouts. Julia Rosenberg. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Cool. Cool. And then, ooh, and then, [1:11:40] So what are you using the tools for for the club? Like you're making graphics or like what? Yeah, I mean, it's mostly like pre-production stuff, like specking out. Like we're doing a new drop soon. Okay. A little like doing like a basketball soccer jersey drop. Okay, cool. For tennis jerseys. Okay. And you designed that in Luma? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, nice. So I mean, mostly specking it out. Okay. You know, you could definitely do more. Yeah. I mean, obviously for work, I'm just like constantly like testing the limits.

[1:12:10] out. [1:12:10] in a couple weeks. And so I'm just like, we're coming with use cases. We're like going in a lot, shooting a bunch of [1:12:18] templates for it, column plates, and then just testing the model with our whole team. A lot of, for me, stress testing versus building things out because I wish I had more time to do that. Yeah, I'm sure. But the forward deploy you could create is mostly this. Okay. Cool. That's awesome. Well, I genuinely am so impressed with Luma. I mean, it's no small business. You guys raised like $900 million. It's an incredible product. And part of why we wanted to have you on is I think that there's this... [1:12:47] major sort of [1:12:49] discourse around tools, either taking jobs or whatever, and this technology, like, basically removing creatives. And I think that there's a different story to tell. And I think that the work that you were doing is very much a part of that. So I'm so glad you could come on and talk to us about it. And enjoy the rest of the summit. I hope you guys' workshop goes great. Yeah, definitely. Lemon, if you want to stop by. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I do. I will. Yeah, for sure. You'll get a text from both of us. Okay, thanks so much, friends. Great to have you on. [1:13:19] Thanks so much. Bye. See you later. [1:13:24] Thank you. [1:13:25] Okay, we have one more guest. But before we do that, we're going to talk a little bit about a show. [1:13:33] A show that we're working on here at Boys Club. Oh, I was going to say, what show are we talking about? But now I know. Now you know. Got it. Okay. Show Me Your Sack is Boys Club's network show.

[1:13:45] It is about people's digital stack and... [1:13:49] Before we get into episode two, we are working with Vercel on this show, and we love Vercel. Vercel is organically coming up in every single episode, and that is not... [1:14:02] That's real. I'm not lying to you. Yeah, they just do so much. They're just so they're at the bottom. Well, not the bottom, but they're so close to the bottom of the stack. Oh, and now the top. Yeah, they're everywhere. Okay. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about Vercel. If you are a startup building with agents, look no further than Vercel. Their agentic infrastructure gives you and your agents everything you need to ship. And if you're supported by one of their hundreds of VCs or accelerator partners, you have access to exclusive discounts. [1:14:32] Yes. [1:14:32] and benefits. Deploy faster, scale globally, and ship world-class AI products. Check out the platform that thousands of companies use from day zero to IPO at Vercel.com slash startups. [1:14:47] Thank you. [1:14:48] And there's a link in the chat. Also, you clocked me earlier when I was rehearsing my ad read and you said, that's not backslash, that's backslash. [1:14:56] And so I stand corrected. [1:14:58] Yeah, it's really important to know the distinction between a backslash and a slash. It's like really important. I will say you had to Google it. So to confirm. Yeah, I mean, we learned together. That's what it's all about. Exactly. Exactly. We're learning community. OK, so this episode of. [1:15:14] Show Me Your Sack is with a guy named Farza, who has actually been like blowing up on the internet. He started a

[1:15:22] tool called Clicky. [1:15:24] And it's amazing. And like Instagram is liking it, which Instagram hates technology. Yeah, it's hard to get Instagram to like something. Exactly. So I feel so excited that Jules, who is the host of this, got to interview him and genuinely was inspired by this episode. So we're going to play... [1:15:43] a little clip from it so people could get a sense of vibe and then we'll be right back. [1:15:49] So that was entirely built with cloud code. I don't even know how to code in Swift. I built this thing that's now being used by thousands of people every single day. This is Clicky. It's this cute little AI buddy that lives next to your cursor and can teach you anything in real time. So you don't even know how to review the code base. [1:16:03] - I don't. That being said, I've been an engineer building products since I was 18. - What was the process of actually making Clicky? - Honestly, at this point, I just tell Claude to just do whatever I wanted to do. I'll open up a terminal. In this case, I'm using Warp. For Clicky, I literally just said, I wanna make a desktop app on my Mac where my cursor is followed by another buddy that's a smaller blue triangle. It worked for six minutes, I had it. And then from there, I just keep building on top of it. I just keep making it more and more complex. Now it's like, okay, now when I hold a hotkey, [1:16:28] I want it to hear me and I want it to repeat what I said. Great. Now that's done. It's like step by step. But yeah, this landing page is also like just so easy. Usually it's such a pain for me to spin up a landing page. Now I could just be like, make me a landing page for Clicky. [1:16:41] And what I'll often do is I'll link it, my actual app. [1:16:43] Because it has all the code, right? Yeah. So let's just say, you know, let's just pretend here's the code base. [1:16:48] Go read it. [1:16:49] and make a [1:16:50] sick LP. [1:16:51] That's it. This is actually what it built. One shot? One shot. Yeah, I barely changed this. I just said I want one page, black and white. There's a double cursor here. Yeah, because there are people who don't have it. Clicky has a Clicky now. Yeah, it has a child.

[1:17:10] Okay. You saw the episode. I did. What do you think? I thought it was amazing, inspirational. I loved, this might be kind of a spoiler, but I feel like that, is that okay if I give a bit of a spoiler? Okay. He does this thing where he really... [1:17:28] does a self-reveal, like documents a lot of things and then hands them over to an LLM and like just allows it to organize all of it and like architecture all of it, architect all of it. And I love that. I'm like obsessed with that. I think a lot of people are scared of that. And it was cool to see someone actually do it and like how it benefited him. Yeah. I was actually really shocked by that because I... [1:17:51] He's obviously like a deep technologist and... [1:17:54] My exposure often to people who are [1:17:58] deeply technical is that they... [1:18:02] are really concerned with privacy, very concerned with their data, which I think is all fair. But I feel like, [1:18:10] This was a peek behind the curtain on someone who has pretty actively decided to trust these tools and what he is able to do with the information, like with how well known sort of his agent is with his experience. [1:18:26] creative process with the things that he's interested in with like callbacks on things that he's documented is really incredible. And anyway, I genuinely was inspired by this episode. I think it's [1:18:37] incredible to see somebody who is just like

[1:18:40] creating and that creative process being really like laid out in front of, um, viewers. So the episode is live tomorrow. [1:18:50] On YouTube. [1:18:51] on the Boys Club World YouTube. [1:18:54] Hit the bell. Subscribe and then hit the bell. Hit the bell. Julia Rosenberg, who's the host, does a great job interviewing him. And it's a really fun one. Yeah, I think this one also, the stack feels accessible too. Like I feel like it feels actionable. Like I see him do something and I go, oh, I could literally go set that up on my laptop in like two minutes. Yes. And just experiment with it and figure it out. I agree. Yeah, because some people, as you were kind of saying, are doing like really gigabrain stuff where that's kind of intimidating to me. I didn't feel like that was so much the case with this episode. [1:19:24] We weren't in Terminal. [1:19:26] Yeah. I don't remember. Like a little bit. There's maybe a few shots of the terminal, but we're showing human readable text. We're not doing like a bunch of crazy stuff. You're right. Okay. That is Shomir's back and Purcell. We, again... [1:19:40] Love herself. Okay. The last segment of the show, I'm going to say farewell to you again. And we are going to transition into a new segment. [1:19:55] here at Boys Club called Cash Tips in partnership with Polygon. [1:20:00] And we're going to have a special guest come up for our first episode. Hi, how's it going? Come on in. [1:20:06] There we go. [1:20:07] Good. [1:20:09] Nice to see you in person.

[1:20:11] Finally. Okay. [1:20:15] We'll get you set up here and then get chatting. So, [1:20:20] Sahil [1:20:21] Guasami. [1:20:23] Goswami. Sahil Goswami is the president and fintech banking and digital assets at Dart Bank. You founded the firm's fintech business from scratch and co-authored one of the first compliant digital asset banking frameworks in the U.S., which is incredible. And you guys serve a variety of very legitimate clients like Kraken, OKEx, Crypto.com, just to name a few. Yeah. [1:20:49] Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's been a crazy journey to say the least. I can't, I truly can't imagine. And we had such a fun conversation earlier this week. And I'm so excited to talk about sort of like the future of money and your perspective on it. I want to start with your background because I think it gives some really helpful context. So you started your career managing a $13 billion book. [1:21:12] made up of subprime mortgages post-2028 financial crisis, which I find fascinating. Can you just walk us through [1:21:19] the path from that job [1:21:22] to what brought you to digital assets? It was a journey. So it's interesting to come out of school and then start managing bonds that are leftovers from banks that went under. So very big, short type of material. We were looking at Lehman, Bear Stearns paper. So the subprime mortgages you see in the movie were all bundled up and a lot went under, but a lot came back and a lot performed. People paid their mortgages. And so I got to see what that was like and

[1:21:48] invest in that paper. [1:21:50] I had the opportunity to go upstate and look at the actual loan files that backed a lot of these mortgages. These were originated in 2006, 2007. So not everything was digital. [1:22:00] You get to see letters from folks who are trying to save their home, who are trying to make sure their home is accounted for. There was a lot of title fraud occurring. And I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way to have done this. I can't believe it's like physical paperwork around. Like, that's wild. No digitization of it, really. No, not really. I mean, there were cases of banks. [1:22:21] trying to seize homes that had already been paid off and vice versa. Wow. Or mortgages that were just lost. Okay. So folks ended up with... [1:22:28] a free home because everything was a paper record. Okay. Crazy. But one of my bosses thought of it as a good learning experience to send me up there. And it was just fascinating in that [1:22:37] You get to see what the world was like then and where I think it should have gone. And at that time, the idea of putting things on chain, starting to really come into vogue. And I thought that that's the direction I want to head in. So I started to take the steps of going from a subprime MBS analyst to how do I end up in this space? OK, and you ended up. [1:22:58] through, you had a few, I think a job in between, but you ended up at Darbank. And Darbank is a community bank. It's been around for a hundred years. It's been focused on mortgages, but [1:23:09] really seems like it's been sort of at the front of innovation in a few different categories, crypto being one of them. Can you... [1:23:17] Tell us if sort of being a part of like a community bank or a smaller bank, maybe not like a JP Morgan or something, makes you guys more nimble and more able to sort of move to innovation into the front lines of things.

[1:23:29] I love watching The Office. And my best analogy is DART is Dunder Mifflin in a world of staples. So at the end of the day, you're going to be able to find a lot of banks participating in the space. But being able to pick up the phone, call someone, get what you need done. [1:23:44] move quickly enough to match the pace of innovation in this space. [1:23:48] Finding a bank that can do that has been tough. And that's why we've been able to have some of the core clients that we've had. Kraken, Crypto.com, OKEx, to name a few. And we've had a long relationship. We've been able to build with them, build alongside them. And I think being nimble in banking is kind of an oxymoron. It's tough. We do our best. Nice. Okay. I want to get into the Genius Act clarity. This is a big day. [1:24:18] major pieces of legislation that have pointed to regulatory clarity in the U.S. around crypto. Today's a big day. The Senate Banking Committee dropped the Clarity Act draft draft. [1:24:29] on Monday and they are... [1:24:32] Marking it up this morning, Thursday morning, while we're actually on this stream. So for a treasurer or a CFO listening, what changes for them in the next 48 hours if it clears the committee? [1:24:44] So it cleared committee as of two minutes ago. Oh, breaking, breaking news. We were through committee with bipartisan support. Okay. So I think clarity passes. And I think there's no doubt in my mind that, [1:24:57] If you're a regulated financial institution, you need to be paying attention to what comes out in terms of final language.

[1:25:03] and where your firm plays. And I think that's true for firms that are big, firms that are small. You've had a lot of hesitancy around headline risk in this space with a lot of CFOs, a lot of C-suites just thinking and saying, hey, this space ebbs and flows, but the tech doesn't. [1:25:21] It's trying to ignore the PC because you're happy with your IBM. I think that's really where we're [1:25:33] for when this does pass and what that means for your firm. [1:25:37] Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Breaking news. Thanks for bringing it. And my understanding of the bill, and I just want to get your perspective to make sure that I have the right viewpoint of it, is that it's basically providing clarity on the classification of digital assets and which enforcement body oversees them. So SEC versus CFTC. Is that part of it? Yeah, that's part of it. Okay. And then the other part of it is really about yield, right? Yes. Okay. Can you talk a little bit about the yield component? [1:26:07] is a bigger fight in that you have a lot of friction between traditional banks that [1:26:13] view deposits as a means to serve their broader community. The idea being that if I as a client have, as an institution, as a business, have a million dollars sitting at a bank account to help fund my business, that bank is going to engage in fractional reserves. Part of that money is available at a bank, but they use that to lend to fund other operations and to give back to the community.

[1:26:34] stablecoins have historically paid yield in that the stables and the underlying assets that back those stables are invested into T-bills, invested into AAA-rated assets or something along those lines. So the fight has been how do you reconcile the existence of stables as they are today and the fact that they pay yield? [1:26:52] with the fact that banks may be losing deposits as retail and or institutional customers keep their cash in stables as opposed to in banks. Okay. That means a lot less lending. That means a lot less liquidity. And I think that that fight is a justified fight. But... [1:27:06] I don't see it panning out the way a lot of the space thinks. Okay. [1:27:12] How do you see it panning out? [1:27:13] I think yield is a... [1:27:16] Yield has a very important role to play within banking. [1:27:20] I don't see banking giving that up all that easily. And I view myself as that, that, that, [1:27:26] middle to Venn diagram guy, someone who's been in the TradFi side, who's been in banking, understands the crypto space. And I think stables as they are today have been a stopgap between what was an unregulated industry that didn't have access to good banking, to what things look like two years from now, when every bank has a core digital asset strategy. And so I think sticking with the status quo isn't always the best approach. And I think that's the friction we're seeing playing out. [1:27:56] They're bracing for clarity to pass. And they... [1:28:02] are calling you today, this afternoon. What are they asking you?

[1:28:08] They want to understand what the bank might be able to do to offset a potential loss in yield if stables are no longer paying. Does that mean we are partnering with – and I think you're starting to see that theme with a lot of large asset managers – [1:28:23] launching tokenized money market funds that are entering the news in the past week. I think we saw something with Kraken and Franklin, I believe. One of my old companies, New York Life, is getting into the game. You have a lot of platforms that are just doing what they can to build that bridge. And I think it's understanding what bridges are currently available, what's open, what's under construction, and what needs to be built. Yeah, absolutely. [1:28:47] Do you feel like you have a good sense for that? I try. I think there's a lot of informal calls around how to build. And I think it's. [1:28:55] The reality is there are not that many folks who straddle both lines in the space. Yeah, totally. So it is a small community. And I think. [1:29:02] Being in crypto, it's very easy to think, wow, it's a large industry, it's a large space, but [1:29:08] Having been in the space for a few years now, you always, you end up knowing someone who knows someone. For sure. You're two degrees, three max removed from any conversation you need to have. And it's been a welcoming space. So folks are happy to talk to each other and engage and try to understand, hey, what do I have to do to be successful here? I totally, I totally agree. Okay. So I want to talk about. [1:29:30] your perspective of stablecoins and how that relates to sort of [1:29:34] the future of money currently and in the next five, 10 years,

[1:29:39] For those who are listening who maybe don't know, the Genius Act was signed into law last year by President Trump. [1:29:45] Can you just give us a one-on-one on the Genius Act as a way to sort of [1:29:50] Paint the picture of why stable points are in. [1:29:53] sort of the position they are today. [1:29:55] Genius was a good first step of [1:29:58] giving regulatory clarity, again, no pun intended, to the space. I think the space had been clamoring for something. The idea was something is still better than nothing. And if we can get a bill together that gives us some guidelines on where we can operate, get banks comfortable with banking the space, [1:30:14] that might be good enough. The reality is it's never good enough. You do need additional clarity and you need to be able to make sure that compliance and risks teams at regulated institutions feel like they have the air cover to enter a space that has historically drawn a lot of scrutiny, a lot of criticism, a lot of headline risk from regulators as well as just [1:30:44] think about what happened with FTX. We think about various industry officials that have gone to prison. It's not necessarily that it hasn't been rife with a lot of missteps. So that gives a lot of boards and a lot of those who have a duty to care around their organizations pause. So I think genius was that first step. And it made sense that it passed. It made sense you can get something on the books. And that's what's given a lot of these regulated institutions the air cover to build what

[1:31:14] if Genius hadn't passed. So there are a lot of folks out there that say, well, we should have just waited until you have one big bill. But I don't think that would have helped anyone. Yeah. And I also think... [1:31:25] so much is revealed in the work. Like you do, you have some clarity, you do some stuff, and then there's a whole new set of questions that come up. And I think it's much more useful to sort of keep, [1:31:37] putting one foot in front of the other as opposed to waiting for [1:31:40] the rules of everything because that will, I don't think ever really happen in a way that people anticipate. [1:31:46] Okay, so I want to get to agentic payments because I think there's a lot to talk about there. But before we do that, so... [1:31:53] You're from institutions that historically have been really skeptical about, I would say, crypto, maybe not Dart specifically, but I think as a whole. [1:32:02] What actually changed internally? When did you experience the conversation of... [1:32:08] this is a crypto thing to this is a treasury and payments infrastructure thing around stables. And how are institutions actually [1:32:18] using actually holding stable coins today? Like what does... [1:32:21] that look like? [1:32:23] So the shift in perspective around... [1:32:27] this is a piece of tech infrastructure that can be used, has been most pronounced over the past 12 months. I'd say when we entered the space, when Dart entered the space, it was coming off the heels of, [1:32:39] Silvergate signature going under. You had the SVB restructuring. You had a lot of displacement within crypto, within crypto banking. You had some exchanges that were struggling to find rails for people to move money on and off. So to go from that in March of 23...

[1:32:53] to June of 24, you still have a lot of regulatory scrutiny. The banks have closed and you're trying to launch a new program to... [1:33:00] A year later. [1:33:02] genius passes. Now a year later, we're going to see clarity pass. There's a lot of change occurring. So the tech, [1:33:08] perspective and the prospects of where that could go has always been there. But I'd say the most pronounced change has been the past 12 months. And in terms of where folks are keeping their stables and how they're thinking about [1:33:17] what payments may look like, [1:33:19] They're working with the core exchanges. The exchanges are expanding their pie. And they are working hard to say, hey, we're not just someone you go to for a spot exchange. Okay. You can trade equities. You can think about derivatives, the perps, prediction markets. We are happy to offer custody. We're going to enter the banking space overall, get an OCC charter, a trust charter. So that expansiveness makes sense in a space like ours. It also reflects [1:33:49] Thank you. [1:33:50] businesses that are not necessarily seeing the same revenue they had. So as opposed to just trying to make more from the existing pie, they will expand the pie. And that's what we're seeing a lot of these, these platforms do. Yeah. And I think, [1:34:01] That makes a ton of sense. And I also think seeing other companies, [1:34:07] that I think is really healthy thinking about the full stack of sort of how they're supporting the, [1:34:12] their clients and customers and that across crypto. Now there being enough that has been built and enough infrastructure that that's actually possible instead of having this fragmented like, okay, some things are on chain and some things aren't like that sort of experience of it. Oh yeah. Okay. So,

[1:34:29] Where do you think the future of money and payments is headed? [1:34:33] Programmability. I think the idea is [1:34:37] as your dollar comes in, it should work for you without too much intervention. There were a lot of platforms that came about, um, [1:34:45] Post-2010, that we're focused on the idea of set and forget. And I think that is one of the best ways to build wealth is, hey, your money comes in, you have automatic rules around how to deploy it. That game has changed in the era of agents and what we've been able to see over the past year around how AI can help. [1:35:15] to an individual person that they can have designed around their spending habits, that they can ingest their monthly bank statements into to best understand how should I deploy my money? What does this mean for me? How does this align with my interests? And I think that kind of personalization is the biggest takeaway that we'll look back in 10 years on to say, hey, AI has delivered the personalization and that's what's going to allow people to build the way they want to. Wow. I love that. I love that as a way of thinking about [1:35:41] individual [1:35:42] wealth creation and my own experience of, [1:35:48] sort of like looking at my income and my investments and, and trying the best I can to navigate, like what are good decisions to be making based on my lifestyle, my values and the things that I want for my future. And that feeling like,

[1:36:01] so hard and overwhelming. And there being some, you know, like, okay, some financial advisors that might work with me. But, like, it's a really... [1:36:11] daunting task. And I love the idea that [1:36:16] that version of the future, the way that you see it is... [1:36:19] I think really helping people who are maybe... [1:36:23] not super financially literate being able to build wealth and, [1:36:27] I love that answer as opposed to like... [1:36:30] We're just going to have bots doing all of our shopping for us. Like, that's a very, I think, hopeful vision of the future, which I really appreciate. OK, talking about sort of programmability as the answer of the future of money. [1:36:42] How do you see the [1:36:45] agents and stable coins sort of working in tandem together. [1:36:49] I think stables are the natural answer to how do agents conduct payments scalably. [1:36:54] That being said, Visa, MasterCard, networks have done a very good job over the past few years of future-proofing their business. Those two networks are built on the idea that we have a large network, that network effect delivers value as long as we continue to build within the network and create the right products. [1:37:12] were able to deliver a lot faster. So as an example, Visa's done a good job with integrating stables into how [1:37:21] their merchants can conduct payments. We've seen stablecoin back cards through both Visa and MasterCard. That's great. And I think that's phenomenal to see incumbents play in the space. [1:37:31] But if I think about at a personal level, at a

[1:37:34] non-custodial level at a custodial level [1:37:37] agents are going to be conducting a lot for us. And in order to, [1:37:42] do any real transactions, make anything, any real movements happen, payments will have to be part of that process. Yeah. And I think stables make it really easy. It's the idea that if I receive my paycheck every two weeks, I imagine a world in which you don't, you get it every day. You don't have to worry about the friction associated with payroll and having to disperse to a bank. [1:38:00] that a portion will sit in stables for disbursement because folks will be able to enjoy [1:38:05] being able to get their money when they're owed it. And that protection layer that exists through the networks will be needed a lot less because there are ways to mitigate fraud when it comes to what the agents can do and how they can play against fraudsters and in favor of making sure that the money you receive is money that's owed to you and you don't have to worry about chargebacks, et cetera. That's what creates a lot of the friction in payments today. [1:38:28] Okay. [1:38:29] How does a deeply regulated bank like you guys? [1:38:33] play at the edge of what's possible? Like what does a sandbox look like for a business like Darden? So [1:38:41] I'm fortunate in that DART's management and our board understands that being [1:38:46] Future proofing is important. [1:38:48] We did the first auto loan in the U.S. way back when. We've transitioned as a bank that's focused on farmers for a long time to eventually cannabis and then... [1:38:56] leveraging the cannabis skillset to be focused on crypto and broader fintech. I think, [1:39:02] Being able to work with our existing clients, our existing clients love the idea of being able to leverage agents for payments. But there aren't that many banks out there. I can think of two that are...

[1:39:13] dabbling in the space. So we work with the use cases they have in mind. We design around that and test and test and test in production, test with small amounts, but do so in a regulated way where we're not really tripping any wires. And I think that goes a long way. You have to, it's a crawl, walk, run approach. And that's the only way to be successful when you're dealing with new tech. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. What's, [1:39:38] the thing that people are not talking about or not thinking about when it comes to first stable coins and then second agentic payments. [1:39:46] I think the [1:39:49] idea that stables will continue [1:39:52] What stables look like two years from now will be dramatically different. [1:39:56] than what they look like today. And I think that means, hey, are you able to trade money? [1:40:02] fractionalized tokenized money market funds in the same way you would a stable. [1:40:06] Does that mean a stable is just invested into one of those funds? I think we've really been focused on, hey, this is a vehicle that solves for X issue. [1:40:16] What if there are other products out there that might be better than what stables offer that can solve the same issue? And I think that migration is something for folks to think about. [1:40:25] I think beyond that, on the agent side and where tech is going, [1:40:30] Uh, [1:40:31] there is a gap that's widening with a lot of regulated institutions that are [1:40:36] not paying enough attention to [1:40:39] where the tech is headed, where the consumer is headed. And I think bridging that gap will become more and more important. To that end, there's going to be a lot of M&A that dictates that over time. Interesting. Cool. Okay. We're at time. The last part of the segment is...

[1:40:53] One minute. [1:40:55] to tell us your best [1:40:56] Cash tip. Sure. So you can think about it. I'm going to pull up my... [1:41:01] My... [1:41:03] Timer here. [1:41:06] And are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, let's go. So I think programmability is important and folks need to understand that. [1:41:14] The way you can use your money and the way we were taught to use your money growing up is dramatically different than what exists today and what exists over the past six months with agents. I had implored people to spend the time to talk. [1:41:27] Download a localized model, get familiar with AI, and try and understand what you could do differently around how you deploy your money, how you build your wealth, and how you think about what your spend looks like and what your investments look like over time. [1:41:40] If you can do that, you are going to be a lot more in touch than any financial advisor could do for you just because it means it's something native that can be done every single day. And I think that goes a long way in educating folks. [1:41:54] No matter what your education may be as it relates to financial investments. Wow. Great. With nine seconds left. I love that answer. I'm honestly like, that's what I'm doing tonight. I'm going to get started on some financial planning using an agent. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was so honestly, so enjoy talking to you about all of these topics. And I think you have a really like rooted perspective on so much of this, but also like very forward thinking. So, Sahil, thank you for coming on Cash Tips.

[1:42:24] Okay, that is Voice Club Live. That's our show for this week. Tune in tomorrow on our YouTube for... [1:42:33] the second episode of Show Me Your Stack, and we will see you next week. [1:42:40] We out.