Nucleus Launches First Genetically Optimized Embryo

[00:00] - Nucleus embryo is a genetic optimization software. So usually parents have a couple viable embryos and now they can actually take the raw DNA files of them, upload it to Nucleus, and we'll give you analysis on everything from cancers to IQ, to eye color, to hair color, to schizophrenia risk. And so what really we're doing is we're completely empowering the patient with the full genetic profile [00:21] of their embryos so they can genetically optimize their children. Sometimes people think DNA is everything and that's why they're scared of it. DNA is not destiny and DNA will never be destiny. It's one of many tools that parents use to give their child the best start in life. And I think nucleus embryo is going to really bring that technology to everyone. Keon, welcome to Sorcery. Thanks, Molly. Thanks for having me. I love that we're both matching in our I mean, wow. Cream knits. I mean, I have to say we coordinated this, didn't we? [00:51] Congratulations on the big launch of Nucleus Embryo. What is Nucleus Embryo and why is this moment so significant? Yeah, Nucleus Embryo is a genetic optimization software. So we help parents give their child the best start in life. So usually parents have a couple viable embryos and now they can actually take the raw DNA files of them, upload to Nucleus, and we'll give you analysis on everything from cancers to IQ to eye color to hair color to schizophrenia risk. In other

[01:21] your embryos. With that, we're excited to announce a couple of things. One is we've partnered with Genomic Prediction. So Genomic Prediction was one of the first startups that ever actually did genome-wide testing in embryos. We are basically enabling old Genomic Prediction customers to access our embryo software, our genetic optimization software, so they can basically make more thoughtful choices. And also we're excited to announce this is the first time a company has [01:51] basis of intelligence. So we have multiple massive announcements today. There was a, you know, Wall Street Journal exclusive article that came out and all around, I think the company is just feeling so, so excited. [02:01] Well, there's a lot to break down there and so much to get into, especially the [02:06] couple optimizing for IQ. First, I want to get into the genetic optimization software for embryos. What does this actually mean? [02:15] What this means is parents, for the first time ever, can give their children the best start in life. So often the first thing parents think about when they're having healthy children is, how do I not pass down a rare disease? Something like maybe someone's a carrier for cystic fibrosis or something like Huntington's, for example, and they might think, okay, how do I not pass this down to the child? Then they think about maybe other diseases like common diseases, like breast cancer, like heart disease. These are conditions that, generally speaking, are just simply not [02:45] in the clinic today. So let's say you're a couple doing IVF. The first thing that's very well accepted in the IVF context is making sure your child doesn't have any chromosomal abnormalities like Down syndrome, for example. Okay, so that's the first thing. Then they might test for rare hereditary diseases, as mentioned, like cystic fibrosis. But then that's it. They don't test for common diseases like cancers or heart disease or schizophrenia. They're not going to test for

[03:09] They don't run any more sophisticated modeling of genetic prediction on things like IQ or height, for example. And so what really we're doing is we're completely empowering the patient with the full genetic profile of their embryos so they can genetically optimize their children. [03:25] To put some numbers against that, what does that mean in terms of how many embryos you can... [03:31] optimize at once or how many actual conditions there are? Usually couples have, you know, three to five viable embryos. So they would take these viable embryos that go to their IVF clinic. Maybe they use genomic predictions and PGTP test, and they basically request the files from the [03:50] They get these three to five files, they upload it to Nucleus, and then Nucleus will analyze these files across literally everything, across diseases and traits, as mentioned. And then basically, parents have to choose. You actually, it's very easy to, we analyze the embryos, and then you can very easily sort them, you can compare them, you do all these things, and then you can pick the one you want to implant. I guess more seriously, like, why now and why you? Like, why do you think that it's capable now that you're able to do all this technological [04:20] let's say like five years ago. [04:22] One of the big things about nucleus is preventative medicine. If you think about it, this is the greatest manifestation of preventative medicine. It is, you know, the genome is the foundation of health. We always say that. It's the foundation of life. It's the inception. If you go back and think, what is the single greatest way to reduce disease incidence? What is the single greatest way for a baby to live a long and healthy life is to go back to the DNA. And so I really see

[04:52] of our vision of a more preventative-based medical system, one where people are empowered to live longer, we really champion at Nucleus something called generational health. Generational health is this idea that you do a genetic test, not just for yourself and your own health, right, but for your parents, for your children and their children. And I think you're seeing the rise of this kind of reproductive genetic stack forming, right? Parents came to Nucleus to do preconception testing to see if they're a carrier for anything. And then if they were, and they weren't a genetic [05:22] Or even if they, you know, whether they're genetic match or not, they said, okay, maybe I want to do IVF now. And I want to now test my embryos, right? In other words, you can kind of see how adult testing, you know, genetic matching, which we launched a couple months ago, led naturally to then embryonic analysis. And so you see this testing from preconception to conception. And now, even after birth, we're going to be exploring as well. And this reproductive stack is all genetically based. It's all genetically informed. [05:52] the same as an adult DNA file. So we're taking the most cutting edge analysis and models that exist and applying it to embryos. [05:59] And so when you think about it, this made perfect sense, not just technologically speaking, but fitting the ethos of our business of building a dramatically new preventative based medical system. I think it's important to take a step back and actually understand how important this moment is in the grand scheme of fertility. [06:18] There are like significant shifts in the U.S. for fertility. It seems commonplace now that couples are freezing eggs, that they're using IVF. And even broader than that, there's declining birth rates worldwide. Could you put some data behind all this? What is the current state of fertility? Well, you make a great point. First off, birth rates are declining. IVF is becoming

[06:48] via IVF. That would be crazy to say a couple of decades ago. I mean, at some point, IVF babies were test tube babies, right? Now it's just how people have children. And you can imagine as it becomes easier and easier, maybe you take stem cells and make an egg or sperm, as it becomes easier and easier and less invasive to make an embryo, you can imagine that IVF is going to become more and more ubiquitous. And it's interesting because I always talk about the decreasing cost of whole genome sequencing. What used to be a billion dollars is now a couple hundred dollars. [07:18] Obviously, DNA being the generational health tool that it is doesn't just impact adults and longevity, but also impacts fertility. And so you're going to see the rapid decrease in cost of IVF combined with the rapid decrease in cost of sequencing a genome. These things are going to converge together to enable this massive, massive new generation of parents having genetically optimized children. [07:48] 30,000 companies, including one in three venture-backed startups in the U.S. Nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. Brex is literally built to help founders avoid that. Unlike traditional banks that let your money sit idle, chipping away at it with fees, Brex is designed to help you spend smarter and move faster. Brex is designed to help you spend smarter and move faster. [08:08] Their all-in-one solution combines checking, treasury, and FDIC protection into one powerful account. You can send and receive money globally at lightning speeds, get 20 times the standard FDIC coverage through their partner banks, and even high yield from day one.

[08:24] With same day and even same hour liquidity, access your funds anytime. [08:29] Companies like Scale AI, DoorDash, Service Titan, HIMSS, [08:33] Anthropic, Flexport, Robin Hood, and Plaid. Trust and use Brex. Start today at brex.com slash sorcery. [08:42] That's B-R-E-X-E. [08:44] dot com. [08:45] slash [08:46] sorcery. [08:47] Could you draw that out a little bit further? Yeah, so... [08:51] A couple of things are happening in the context of the broader kind of reproductive world. So one is people are having birth later. [09:00] as you know, I mean, intuitively kind of you already know this, women are having children much later on in life. And that means more and more women are opting for IVF. IVF is very expensive. I think the statistic is that's around $25,000 per cycle, which is pretty crazy. And with that, I think it's 2.8 million people, 2.8 million people in the United States have genetic disease. So think about that. All the pain, all the suffering that exists, [09:23] because of genetics. And we have the tools today. We have the tools today, combining preconception screening, and it can be with or without IVF, to actually basically help millions, literally millions of lives to prevent genetic disease. And so when I think about the kind of broader reproductive transformation, you're seeing basically the rise of IVF, you're seeing the [09:53] women especially who want to have children later on in life. And so this technology, and also on that point too, there was actually a really good study that was done asking couples about genetic optimization, which is, you know, what's their perspective on it? And in the study, it said over 50% of people said genetic optimization for something like IQ is fine. And then I think four of 10 people said if they could genetically optimize their children to get into a better college, they would do so. Wow. Yeah. It's not crazy. And I think it's interesting

[10:23] tool. [10:24] Right. Sometimes people think DNA is everything and that's why they're scared of it. DNA is not destiny and DNA will never be destiny. It's one of many tools that parents use to give their child the best start in life. It should be thought of as another medical intervention. Right. A vaccine. Right. Sending your kid to the best school. Right. It's just another tool in the toolkit. And I think nucleus embryo is going to really bring that technology to to everyone. [10:46] It's still like a very early category. Like this was something seen as sci-fi and many of your announcements always seem like sci-fi, but it is reality now and something that people haven't actually considered. And so maybe the education on it might be limited. But I'm just curious. [11:03] How does Nucleus fit into this broader fertility crisis and how are you educating people that these tools do exist? One of the core pillars we have is customer obsession. So I think what makes us different than a lot of other IVF genetic testing companies is there's a lot of technical improvements. But even beyond that. [11:23] We're for you. We built software for you. [11:26] doctors and physicians, unfortunately, they have the key today on people's embryos. If you go and talk to fertility clinics, if you go talk to doctors, right now the doctor is the one that basically gatekeeps and controls what information couples can access about their own children. And so going back and kind of paralyzing this to the adult testing world, which today Nucleus is known for, in the same way often doctors will gatekeep genetic tests for adults,

[11:56] context of embryos because other people will make value judgments for couples on what information they should and shouldn't get. We completely reject that. We believe that every piece of information from cancer to IQ to schizophrenia belongs very thoughtfully in the hands of the patient and the patient is the one, not the doctor, that the patient is the one that should pick their embryo. [12:18] Why do you think that parents still feel like [12:22] Having children is... [12:23] hitting a lottery ticket. [12:26] Well, look, I think people are having children much later on, right? And IVF is a hard process. [12:31] I mean, I think IVF takes a big toll on the woman's body and it's expensive and [12:38] It can be demoralizing if you have a miscarriage or the like. And so it's totally understandable that by the time you have a couple viable embryos, you would want to get any amount of information you can possibly get to basically pick your baby. I think that IVF is something that it's going to eventually get less invasive, but today it is still pretty invasive and it's still pretty expensive. And so I really think a technology like nucleus embryo will help [13:05] couples have even more confidence when they're making that choice that, you know, they're giving their child the best possible start in life. [13:12] A part of your announcement was on your partnership with Genomic Prediction. So what does this mean for the industry and how did you guys start working together? I think this is a defining moment for the genetics industry. And the reason for that is because of what you said.

[13:27] We're going full stack, baby. Everything from adults all the way to conception, all the way to birth. The genetic stack is forming. The reproductive stack is forming. One of my visions I had five years ago is I realized that, you know, [13:44] you know, sometimes people think of the genetics industry, it's like, oh, there's 23andMe and Ancestry, which are kind of like gimmicks, they do genealogy. Then there's like clinical testing companies like Natera or Myriad Genetics that are like very serious and will test your risk for, you know, cancers. And then there's pharmacogenomics companies, which will tell you how your DNA affects your metabolites and different drugs. And then there's also IVF genetic testing companies. And these things today are viewed as all separate. Here's the thing, and we will show this to be true, [14:14] genome test. You can actually combine every single one of these applications. You can combine, you know, kind of Ancestry, Natera, Myriad, IVF genetic testing companies, PGX companies, all into one roof, into one house. Because again, principally, we're an adult DNA testing company today, but it's the same models that you use to analyze adult DNA than embryo DNA, because obviously embryos grow up to be adults, right? It's the same DNA. DNA is the, you know, language of life. [14:40] And so I think what the genomic prediction partnership is showing is this full stack. And with that also, I think, you know, [14:48] what it means to be a genetics company is being redefined. [14:51] which I find I take great joy in. There's nothing more satisfying to me as an entrepreneur than the bearishness today on the DTC market because they go, oh, 23andMe failed. Oh, 23andMe failed. What do you think about it? What do you think about it? I think you're asking me, why did the horse carriage company fail?

[15:06] It feels like it's run by horses. I have a Bugatti on the road. And eventually the world is going to see that. And I think with this announcement, people are going to start seeing that because generally people don't associate a company like 23andMe with an IVF genetic testing company. I mean, what do these things have to do? But now the technology is powerful enough that these things are one and the same. And we couldn't be more excited to partner with Genomic Prediction. We couldn't be more excited to send and recommend our patients to do IVF with GP. They're the oldest player in the space. [15:36] the best technology in terms of testing embryos. And so we're just so excited to continue to grow that stack and provide what we really see as generational health. And what does that mean for users and their onboarding experience? Yeah. So it means a couple of things. So there's a couple of paths here. Often what happens is someone will come and do nucleus family. So nucleus family is our preconception test. We can see if you're a genetic match with your partner. Once you do that, and let's say you're not a match, you can actually then do IVF to actually [16:06] pass down that rare condition to your future child. So I get the question a lot, which is, oh, well, Kian, what do I do if I'm a carrier for cystic fibrosis and so is my partner? Then am I screwed? What can I do? That's why maybe you don't even want to do the test. That's actually the beginning of solving that problem. You love your partner, turns out you're both a carrier for cystic fibrosis, no problem. Now we can refer you to our partner at Genomic Prediction, and then you can use the analysis technology to actually then pick the embryo without that condition. Then you can take those embryo files and actually run them

[16:36] back on nucleus and then pick the one that is optimized to your preferences. So you can see, Molly, how this stack is forming where people come to nucleus and then we actually send them to genomic prediction. Similarly, someone will go to genomic prediction and the first step of any IVF process is preconception testing. Preconception just means before, you know, conceiving before there's an embryo where you just get mom and dad. It's basically nucleus family, right? So genomic prediction will actually send those patients to us. And so now you can see again this stack forming [17:06] history of genetics, I really believe this, it's going to be one of the most defining partnerships that existed because eventually you're not just going to be sequencing and analyzing DNA. You'll probably be editing it as well. It's funny because in the Wall Street Journal article, I'm not sure how many people saw that, but [17:24] I was doing gene editing eight years ago, right, in a do-it-yourself gene editing laboratory. And there's a lot of parallels with that as well. When I was doing that gene editing work, a lot of people said, oh, it's controversial. Oh, you know, you shouldn't have access to technology. But what I learned is when I use that technology, when I use CRISPR, it taught me more about the technology than any reading I could have possibly done. And in using that technology, the laboratory set up the ethical frameworks that then I could operate within. So with Nucleus, I intend to do [17:54] best way to educate parents about genetics and what genetics means and what genetic analysis means is by putting it in their hands. And that is exactly what we're going to do and doing it in a very thoughtful, careful, and deliberate way. DNA is not destiny. It's one piece of the puzzle. And that's exactly what we tell the patient. What are the specific categories of traits and conditions that you're analyzing? How accurate are these predictions?

[18:15] Yeah, so the... [18:17] Different categories ranges from cancers, [18:19] to heart conditions to mental health conditions to something like physical characteristics like height or eye color or hair color. And regarding the predictability of the models, [18:33] There's a large range depending on how genetic something is. For example, people might intuitively guess that something like height, right? Height, you would probably guess, you probably guess that's pretty genetic, right? You look at mom and dad, you're like, okay, this thing is like pretty genetic, which it is. [18:47] And so that model tends to be a very good, strong model. Let's say something like depression. Depression is dramatically more environmentally driven than height. And with that, you would expect that model to be dramatically worse. And so DNA isn't deterministic. And that's actually not a bug. That's a feature. Obviously, DNA, if it could predict everything, then there would be no free will. But it can't. [19:10] And so one of the things that we're really careful in doing is we actually tell patients when they're using our services, which models are better, which models are worse. And the way we present results to patients always takes this into account in that if a model has lower genetic predictability, you would basically see results. [19:28] the deviation or the prediction of the model to be mostly driven by non-genetic pieces of information. That might be a little bit too technical, but what I'm basically principally saying here is that genetic models are highly useful today, and there's a range of them, and different phenotypes or different traits or different diseases are driven to a different degree by genetics, and we communicate that to the patient, we express the limitations of the results of the patient, and the patient can take the results and make the choice that they find

[19:58] Picking out treats, though, like can you make an Elon Musk baby or a Kylie Jenner baby? No, you can't. So one of the most important things to understand is that when you... [20:11] are doing embryo selection, right? The possible embryos you have is based off your partner. Okay. So the most important decision actually is who's your partner, right? Like if you want like a really smart baby, you should probably marry someone that's really smart, right? If you want a really tall baby, you should probably marry someone that's really tall because the embryo selection will always be a relative optimization, right? IQ can explain a couple IQ points, right? Height, you can, you know, explain a couple inches, but principally if you, the most important kind of [20:41] the most important decision. Embryo selection is always a relative optimization, but even though it's a relative optimization, it can still be a highly useful relative optimization, right? You can still dramatically reduce the baby's risk, for example, for something like Alzheimer's, which is then strongly associated with longevity or breast cancer or coronary artery disease, which are the top killers in the United States today. And so all this to be said is that, you know, you can't make Elon, which I don't even know if you want to make Elon. You can't make Elon, but you can give your baby the best start in life. It's an important tool and it's going to become [21:11] does nucleus embryo differ from what fertility clinics are already offering? Yeah, there's a lot of things. So fertility clinics, generally speaking, they're focused on really, really severe genetic diseases. So like Down syndrome, for example, or like a rare hereditary disease like cystic fibrosis or Tay-Sachs or Huntington's, right? They don't venture into the world of

[21:32] what kills most people, which is chronic conditions, things like cancers, things like Alzheimer's, things like Parkinson's, things like heart disease, right? They also do not veer into the land of traits. From our perspective as a company, there's really no difference between diseases and traits. It's a false line in the sand that was drawn. What do I mean by that? Think about height, right? The extreme enough version of height is... [21:54] you know, Marfan syndrome, it's a disease. On the other end of the fight is dwarfism, also a disease. In other words, you know, trying to kind of say, oh, this is disease and this is trait and this is allowed, this isn't, it's completely arbitrary. The most important thing for us is that we do everything above board. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. We operate by transparency. Everyone has access to all the information, all the limitations are there, all the probabilities are there. And then patients can basically go from very kind of rigid and I [22:24] set of really, really bad-trade diseases to everything, to diseases, to traits, and maybe there's a family who has a family history of schizophrenia. Today, they can't weed that out or attempt to contribute to weed that out of their... [22:39] future child, tomorrow with nucleus embryo, they can't. And so I really think that this is just a natural evolution for the industry in moving away from kind of arbitrary lines and saying what people should have access to and shouldn't have access to. And that's one of the reasons why we're so patient centric, because we don't believe the doctor should hold the keys to your embryos. [22:59] I mean, it still is very quiet. I mean, not to pull like too far of a comparison, but most people know about genetically modified agriculture or like dog breeding and that sort of kind of selection. But how do you think about this in terms of, quote unquote, like designer babies and the controversy that surrounds it?

[23:18] I think that, you know, [23:20] embryonic selection today [23:22] If you look at what's actually going on is you have a couple of viable embryos and basically parents will pick the embryos completely randomly. [23:31] Um, and I find that, um... [23:34] like kind of crazy like it's the most arguably one of the most important decisions of your entire life what a baby you're going to implant your future child and you pick randomly and and so i think um what we're really doing is giving people more information to then be able to say okay i actually prefer this embryo over this one maybe because it has dramatically less alzheimer's risk that's what this is really about it's about just people having healthy children and you know picking the best baby in their mind whatever that means to them of the options they had i do think that you know [24:02] over time, this is really powerful technology. I think genetic testing technology and analysis technology, genome technology, if you will, is going to be as powerful as artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is ultimately a tool, and it's a tool that's going to [24:16] I think, be most consequential in the field of human genomics, right? Because [24:20] DNA is life. It explains everything. It's how we all began. I think part of our job is to be really responsible stewards of this power of technology. And the best way in our mind of doing that is by actually not hiding in the ivory tower, by putting it in everyday people's hands. [24:35] Thank you. [24:36] So what would you say to the critics? Like, there's definitely going to be some misconceptions around this. It is newer science that's out in the public. And I'm sure there's going to be some heat. I know that there's definitely some heat with IQ testing before, but what do you think? I think that.

[24:55] Ultimately, this technology... [24:57] belongs in the hands of people and people are going to decide whether they want to use it or not. [25:01] I think [25:02] really that sunlight is the best disinfectant. I think really saying, hey, here's what this technology can do. Here's what the technology cannot do. And making it accessible, making it cheap, making it beautiful, putting it in everyone's hands, educating people, empowering people, making customers a stakeholder, right? Doing that, if someone then decides they don't want to use the [25:22] That's absolutely the right. But the person who's not using technology, in my belief, should not determine whether someone else should use the technology, right? Because it's ultimately up to the individuality and the liberty of the couple. And so I think a lot of questions on... [25:38] you know, a lot of critics, you know, what they're going to say, I think it fundamentally comes down to kind of [25:43] It's my choice. [25:44] It's my choice. If I want to use this technology and the technology is being used in a thoughtful, ethical way and it has scientific integrity, which it does, then all that, if that's all there, then I think people absolutely have the right to use it. And I think you're going to see a broader movement away from people maybe publicly might criticize me or the business or Nucleus. But then I'm almost positive privately people are going to email us and say, hey, how can I use this software? Because I've seen it. [26:08] I've seen it. People are scared to speak up and say, hey, I actually think this is okay. And I'm going to say that [26:14] it is perfectly okay to say, I don't want my baby to have a rare disease. I don't want a baby to have a greater incidence for breast cancer. I don't want my baby, you know, [26:22] to have schizophrenia. These are all things that are okay to say. And moreover, if you want to optimize for a couple IQ points, if you want to optimize for your baby to be slightly taller or have brown eyes,

[26:32] What is it to me? In fact, if you actually look at the way people have picked egg donors and sperm donors, you find that they pick based off. [26:39] People all don't go the same direction. They have different value frameworks. They have different models of the world, and they pick dramatically different egg donors. And so the same thing is going to be true today. People are going to pick based off of their different values. And I think that's beautiful. I mean, the technology belongs in the hands of the people. It belongs in the hands of people making their own choices, couples making their own choices. And I think the worst thing to do is try to take that away from a couple. All we're doing is empowering these patients and making them stakeholders. [27:09] Fourth Wall. Everyone from creators like Marques Brownlee to podcasts like Acquired to orgs like the Smithsonian Institute are using Fourth Wall. They let you create and sell premium products without having to stress the details. They handle everything from production, shipping, customer support, taxes, even giveaways. When it's time to level up and make gear that people are actually proud to wear, that's when it's time to use Fourth Wall. [27:32] And that's why we've trusted Fourth Wall for all of our brandware at Sorcery since day one. Use my link in the description to get free credits for your first order. [27:41] And for any VCs, DM me on X, and I can get all your portfolio companies set up with a free samples credit deal. [27:48] A second order consequence of that would be, do you think that this might deepen the social divide for people that can't afford optimization and who can't? Yeah, that's a great question. I think the ethos of a Silicon Valley startup is making technology ubiquitous and available for everyone. At some point, the iPhone was too expensive. Only investment bankers had it. Now everyone has it. At some point, Teslas were too expensive. Now there's a $30,000 car. In other words, Internet 2 started off as a government project. The whole genome 2, it was a billion dollars, and now it's mass accessible.

[28:18] of nucleus is the success of ubiquitization. The success of nucleus is a world where anyone [28:26] anywhere, no matter the background, can access this technology. It's funny, when you talk to the dystopian people, they will always say, oh, but some people have access to technology, some people won't. [28:36] Well, we're working on solving that problem. You know, while they're complaining and saying, oh, some people have access, some people don't. [28:41] We're making sure that every single person, no matter your background, no matter where you're from, no matter how much money you have, can access the analysis, can access the tech, and... [28:50] Our success as a business, startup success as a business hinges on that. And so I think we're going to continue to scale and show people that, you know, anyone can have access to this. As we wrap up, I like to draw out two separate segments. So one, drawing off of this, [29:07] What are your outlooks for the year? Like what, what comes next for nucleus? You guys are dropping news like every month. It seems like we're, we're, we're, I'm very proud of the team. We're, we're shipping a lot. The team is fantastic. We're on a tear, honestly. Um, [29:21] We have a lot of exciting stuff coming up. I mean... [29:24] I do want to say that when you think about Nucleus, I think people are starting to see us for what we are. [29:30] which is well beyond a genetics company. [29:32] Um... [29:34] So generational health, this concept of building tools, not just for adults, but also children, and then the kind of yet like literal, you know, inextricability of that, it doesn't exist. There is no precedent. There is no one that has really tackled this generational health component.

[30:04] much cheaper. And so you can see all these technologies form together into something that I really believe is a trillion dollar business. But really, for me, it's about two things. It's about the sincerity of my love for this. I love it. I love this discipline. I love the bits and atoms in that world, but also about the customer. I always think about my cousin. She went to sleep one day and she died. [30:30] And I think, well, a swap could have saved their life. [30:34] And when I think about that, I think, oh my god, this needs to be in everyone's hands. And so... [30:38] I'm doing this for her and hopefully there's someone somewhere that uses technology and maybe their embryo 20 years now doesn't get breast cancer. And you won't get credit for that, but that's beautiful. [30:50] The fact that the molecular kind of [30:54] incontrollable factors that will impact someone's disease risk if that can slowly be kind of uh mitigated [31:01] That's amazing. I think that's the most beautiful thing. Instead of someone getting Alzheimer's 80 years, now think about that. You can make a selection today that instead of getting Alzheimer's at age 60, you just don't. [31:12] I mean, that to me is phenomenal, right? The fact that you can do that in the nucleus embryo application and just at a click of a button. [31:20] Wow. That is beautiful. That's a lot of meaning and purpose and drive behind the mission. And also you're going to help hopefully millions of people. God willing. [31:29] I know you have lots of opinions on things. So while you're here, not to make too hard of a pivot, but I want to get your opinion on a couple of these CalShea sheets. Let's do it. Okay. So on CalShea, I want to know from your side, technologist, frontier tech. Sure. Okay. What do you think the best AI will be this month? So I'm biased here because I principally use ChatGPT, so I'm going to say ChatGPT, but I'm sure CalShea has a disagreement with me, probably.

[31:59] No, I think you're in the running. Okay. Right now it's out about, oh, no, no, you're not. I'm not? ChatGPT is about like 17%. Goddamn, what is Gemini dropping? [32:10] I don't know. Gemini is pretty hot right now. Jesus. Okay. Do you think DeepSeek will be banned in the US? I mean, it should be probably. Why? I mean, I always think about these things in the context of sequencing, which is like, you know, everything we do in the United States on US machines, because I can't fully trust ever using something international. Just because you just don't know. [32:32] I think the strategy of like making AI open source and then like kind of, you know, some and then like just basically releasing across the world could be a very intelligent strategy to try to gain like soft influence and soft power. [32:44] That'd be my take. Even if it's downloaded locally? Yeah. I'm skeptical. Okay. How many times do you think Trump will visit Mar-a-Lago this month? Well, it's the month of June, right? Yeah. Is he going to be vibing this month? I don't know. How is he stressed? Um... [32:59] At least once, presumably. [33:02] What is that? What does the betting market say? I mean, zero is at 74 percent. Really? Yeah. One is at 27 percent. OK, that sounds like there's some alpha there. I mean, how does he generally go to Mar-a-Lago? I thought he goes a bunch. No, I don't know. We got to look into this. I look into this. This is important stuff. Lastly. OK, WWDC is coming up. What do you think Tim Cook is going to say at the Apple event? [33:23] Is he going to mention Siri, MacBook Pro, Vision OS 3? I would hope that he would launch some AI native hardware device, but he's not going to do that. I wouldn't bet on that. That's what I would hope. I mean, I just think if you're Tim Cook right now, you're kind of like, okay, there's clearly something that's going to come that's going to disrupt my entire business.

[33:40] The hardest thing is when you're making a trillion dollars to cut the golden goose. But he knows it's a problem. You see what Open the Eye is doing with Johnny Eyes. It's just like a direct assault on you. I feel like if you're Tim Cook, you got to release the beast. There's no way Tim Cook is not a killer. Have you seen that, man? He's a killer. It's always the people that are a little bit more down to earth that are like, yeah, I'm very nice, folksy person. That's like, well, you know. [34:02] get you. And so I'm a little bit like [34:05] If he... [34:08] I don't know. I feel like he should maybe just let it rip and be like, we're building the AI heart like native device and like it's going to launch like, you know, instead of whatever, I think opening is that next year, I would try to like launch ahead of time or something. I don't know. [34:19] We'll see. I don't know. I will say that, you know, obviously Apple's 50,000 times our size. But one thing I learned being CEO of a smaller, of a much smaller company is that you never know what the CEO has to deal with. And actually sometimes it's just like a lot of distractions because like the most important things, like sometimes go unnoticed. The hardest thing is to like do the most important thing like every single day, right? Like if you're Tim Cook, like think about how much money there is that like distracts you from like what you actually

[34:49] this podcast but maybe i'll give unsolicited business advice because what the hell do i know he's a huge fan he's a huge fan of the sponsor coming soon coming soon all right well kian it was a pleasure to have you on big congratulations again i can't wait to see more announcements coming up this year thanks molly hey it's molly if you enjoy our interviews check out our newsletter sorcery.vc where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper [35:19] today. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.