How Anthropic, Every, & Ramp design with AI

[00:00] Welcome to Dive Club, my name is Ridd, and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is a special one because it's actually a live recording of a panel discussion that happened last week in New York City. We get to hear from three incredible guests. The first is Megan Choi, who's the design lead behind Claude Code and Cowork. The second is Dan Shipper, who's the CEO of Every and one of my favorite thinkers when it comes to AI. [00:30] Third is Bradley Ziffer, who's a design engineer at RAMP. And the entire point of this discussion is to do a deep dive into not only the future of design, but what AI workflows look like at some of these prolific companies. So without further ado, let's dive in. [00:52] Welcome back, everybody. [00:53] Thank you. [00:54] I've always wanted to start talking after a live applause. That felt pretty good. I'm not going to lie. That felt pretty good. I think I could do that. Three amazing guests who have all given wonderful workflows. And we're going to go a little bit deeper here and talk about the different things that people are observing in the industry, how the way that we work is changing some of the best practices that are still kind of actively being discovered inside of our orgs. And I'm going to try something a little bit weird. Haven't really prepped them at all. At all. [01:24] these hypothetical consultant hats. Not so hard for you, Dan, but maybe over here, a little bit new. And we're going to just help people think about different avenues for transformation, right? Like if we want to grow as builders, as orgs who are leveraging AI to the fullest capabilities and really rethinking from first principles how we operate, we're going to

[01:50] What is that going to entail, right? And so talking, Megan, with you earlier, something that I learned is that Megan does a lot of onsites with teams teaching these design orgs how to make the most of cloud and building and using AI. And so I'd like to start with you. [02:06] And we can put on, again, this not-so-hypothetical consultant hat. [02:11] Think about... [02:12] You talked about this 201 level course almost that you're putting people through. So when you think about the transformation that you're hoping to have Design Org see, what are some of the main mile markers on that journey that you would look for? [02:27] Yeah, I think I met a few folks today actually who attended like some previous talks back when cloud code was less popular. And I think the theme of 2025 and like for orgs first getting into this is like... [02:38] Let your designers get access to your production code base. That's like the starting point of this conversation. It has been a very gatekept and for a lot of good reasons, for security, for privacy, for like your ability to understand that you're making these changes. It's been segregated for a while, but it's so, so, so important now that these tools are available. [03:08] closer you are to what your end users see, the closer you have to influence the product. The second, and this one is deeply uncomfortable for a lot of designers, is in the same way that we're asking our engineers to let us in and help us code, you need to be more comfortable letting go of design.

[03:24] I [03:24] And that means that a lot of features can go out without you. [03:28] A lot of the time, it's actually very possible for people to get a V1, a V2, even a V3 out there and have it be pretty good and have it be pretty aligned with your design system. And, you know, you build the automations in place so that that's the right checks and balances. But I think it like goes both ways. And so those are like the two big milestones that I often see. And I think it's crazy if you think about it, that like we all want access to that production code base. But when it comes to having our engineers design for us, the initial reaction is like, oh, my God, I don't want to do that. [03:58] shift your mindset a little bit and like recognize that we're all kind of have like this new ability to build. Let me push on that for a second, because I've talked to quite a few, especially larger teams, but not even massive teams where they're very intimidated by getting designers into prod. And there's this story that you can tell around, well, if we just make a separate repo and a playground, then designers are coding. And that's, you know, the 80-20 value. What would you say to that leader? I was just like, then you're maintaining two repositories. If you ask [04:28] If they ever want to fork their code base and maintain two versions of the same thing, they will always tell you that's a terrible idea because you have to maintain two things and they're always going to be out of dates. Also, uh, [04:37] Part of being in the production code base is having access to all the tools that your organization is building into that code base because you bet your engineers are also on this journey learning with us and they're scaling themselves. It also gives you access to the actual data endpoints so that when you do logging and you're doing data queries, you can actually see what's happening. There's so much built into a real code base that you just can't replicate in a sandbox that you just really need access to it to really experience the power of what it's like to build a product that your users end up using.

[05:07] Destin's recent release for a full year. It's called Surfaces, and it enables you to design and prototype directly on top of an existing production interface. All of the pages and flows that you need are preloaded inside of Destin as starting points, so you can easily make changes, explore ideas, and then when you're ready, you can share your prototype in a single click. [05:37] in flows pulled directly from prod, which is a pretty big deal for teams. And you can get started today. Just head to dive.club slash dessen. That's D-E-S-S-N. Never in a million years did I think my design workflow would change so drastically in the last few months. And a big part of it is Paper's new snapshot tool. It's a Chrome extension that lets you copy any component or element from your live website [06:07] editable layers. So all the time, I'll grab something from prod, have Claude immediately spin it up six different ways on Papers Canvas. And then when I'm ready to send a concept back to Claude, it's seamless because Papers Canvas uses real HTML and CSS. That workflow feels a lot like the future of design to me. And you can start doing this today. Just head to dive.club slash paper to try it out. Now onto the episode. All right, brother, I'm gonna go to you for a second

[06:37] This person who's been kind of bridging and seeing both sides of the table for a while now in this world where many more designers are shipping, touching production, doing things in GitHub that they may or may not fully understand. How is this shaping what you think really solid design engineering collaboration looks like? [06:59] I don't know if it's so much that we all need to become... [07:03] Design engineers or designers or whatever box or label you want to put on things. I think it's more about... [07:14] What does it mean to put... [07:17] care and intention into something. Like Megan's saying, we can probably get to... [07:23] a place where [07:24] seven out of ten we're at a seven out of ten like out of the box a thing you want to do an idea that you have we can get a seven out of ten anyone can do it and that's actually great um [07:35] But that just means you have more room to care and put love and intention and thought into the things that you build. And I think that that's what it in my mind is about. Sure, it's like you should understand this animation you're putting out and what it means to be performant on the web and what it means to not make me rage quit your app because you have like a... [08:00] Uh, [08:01] a menu and then another menu but when i go a little bit outside the boundary of that second menu it like closes the menu and i'm like

[08:08] You should care about those things, but that is all just care. Just you care. [08:13] It's just you caring. And now you have maybe hopefully a little bit more time to care. Okay, I want to touch on the little menu thing, because I think it exists in this box of responsibilities that all of a sudden have kind of fallen potentially on designers plates. Like even speaking from my own experience, that's something that previously I would make a linear ticket. I would add polish and then I would make a comment and be like, please, this is really important. Right. And then mostly get ignored for the next quarter. And now I don't even make the linear ticket. [08:43] new work tree and start working on it. And it's empowering, but also the slope is slippery because I can find myself just like, [08:51] polishing and polishing and polishing and polishing and so given the new capabilities i'm curious how do you think about allocating your time as a designer who all of a sudden may or may not feel like you can shoot lightning out of your fingertips with the deploying code and pushing to prs and stuff like that sure in the beginning it takes a long time to to do these things and to put that care and craft in because you haven't done it before [09:14] You've never done it before and maybe you just stumbled upon like John Famos's tweets and you're like, wow, shout out. I should I should do that. And then you take that tweet and you give it to Claude. Come on, man. This is hitting too close to home. You give it to Claude and then you maybe you just hope it works. [09:36] Or maybe you ask why.

[09:38] Does it work? And hey, next time, can you make a scale out of this? And you don't even write the scale. It just makes the scale. So I don't know. I don't think it's that maybe in the beginning, it takes a long time. We start to spend a lot of time polishing things. But yeah. [09:52] I think that what are you doing? If you can get to 7 out of 10 like this, you probably got a lot of time back. You just maybe don't realize it. [10:03] There's a bunch of things I'm going to put a pin in. One is the seven out of 10. One, Dan, I'm coming to you for more organizational transformation. But really quickly, I'd love to hear from you this idea again. I'm like, everybody can code as much as they see fit. You have an engineering background and yet you're leading design of coding products. How do you think about the allocation of your work? And maybe have you seen a shift over the last even couple models? [10:33] And so I think... [10:36] I just, like, I really trust the designers on my team to... [10:40] prioritize themselves and transparently. Sometimes that looks like not prioritizing polish. And I think that's okay. There's a few truths that I hold in my head as we're working that I think really help guide how I see prioritizing should ship. Part of it is because we're working at a lab. And so our job is to be like researching at the frontier. And so we're [10:59] One thing I like to encourage the team to think about, and this is like an ethos in the cloud code and team in like the product team at Anthropic is like... [11:06] Is it worth polishing something that's not going to be here six months from now? Like we're so early in this journey right now that we actually don't know what the final shape of these products are going to be. And so is your time better spent on that future looking thing where it requires deep thought and kind of like a lot of thinking and like cloud can't do that yet. And it requires like a really big canvas to explore. Or is it better spent on like those 30 tickets?

[11:36] wisely pushing these PRs. They're like, yeah, you're helping the polish work. But right now, Claude isn't good at design. So I am doing a lot of manual look over it. And it wasn't just like a great use of my time. And so I think it's hard to internalize that as a designer, because it feels like now you can do it all. And it feels like it's all on your shoulders and your responsibility to maintain that polish. But we like in the same way that now that we can do it, also your engineers should be able to do more too. Like it's a shared responsibility to care about that polish and about [12:06] Bug your engineer to do polish on features in the same way that your engineer can now bug you to implement something on the front end. Like it's all of us and we're all in it together. Yeah, I like that a lot. I've felt that myself where it's just so easy to knock out a little task, feel good about it, and then immediately just jump to the next task. [12:21] Polish ticket and you can kind of all of a sudden like six hours are gone and things look great. But then you're kind of like, did I work on the highest leverage thing? And I think it hits on this idea of, you know, you kind of really have to be self-aware around not only how you're working as an individual, but how the org is operating. And so maybe, Dan, if I can toss it to you, when an org comes to you and says, yeah. [12:46] Dan, we know AI is a big deal. We don't feel like we are evolving as quickly as maybe we should. Can you just help us get to that next milestone? Where are some of the main opportunities that you look for or signals that you would use to get a sense of where someone's at? If you're going to get this org to the next level, what does that typically look like when you're wearing that consulting hat? The main thing that I always look at is what is the CEO doing?

[13:16] And maybe more broadly, what is the executive team doing? [13:19] Because I think for the first three years of AI, there was a lot of lip service paid to, yeah, we got to have AI or whatever. But it was always like, and we'll do an AI working group. And generally, that has not worked. [13:35] And the organizations that seem to do the best are the ones where the leadership team is in the tool all day. And that's the only way that you'll have an intuition for how to manage a team who's in the tool all day. [13:49] sourceable. So that's, we spent a lot of time with leadership teams actually just being like, okay, literally open cloud code and make something. And they, they love it, but a lot of them are kind of afraid or don't really want to do it. But I think that's, that's one of the big leading indicators to me. [14:03] So you're a pretty good prototype for what it looks like to be the leader who lives with the tools and has hands in the clay pretty much all day is what I'm assuming. So maybe we could zoom in on your workflow for a second. And if you kind of put you today up and then over here is you maybe, I don't know, three, six months ago, something like that. [14:33] in terms of how you are working, what language you're using, tools, skills, anything like that. [14:39] I mean, I think there was this big moment that happened in, I want to say, November or December of 2025 when Opus 4.5 and GPT 5.3 came out. Or, yeah, 5.3. It was like this moment that I think a lot of us, for us at every, like we had been using Cloud Code for about, we've been using it for about a year and have not been looking at code for about a year.

[15:09] still pretty risky and people are like, are you fucking kidding me? You're, you're not looking at the code. Um, um, [15:14] But I think we could see that that's where it was going and we were willing to deal with some of the like weirdness of that. [15:22] And for me, because I'm writing and I'm in meetings and I'm doing all this stuff, I don't [15:29] I like to vibe code, but I'm not going to do any serious engineering. Um, but at, when that stuff came out, when, uh, Opus, Opus, uh, four, five and, uh, five, three came out, I was like shipping PRs to our products. And I was like, Holy fucking shit. This is crazy. Um, yeah. [15:48] So I think that has been a big shift because the models are just much smarter. They're much more independent. They don't do as many dumb things. And I think we've also figured out, like, Cloud Code... [16:03] You guys created this. I think a lot of people had models of... [16:08] What does an agent that does work for you look like? [16:11] And prior to cloud code, there was like the devins of the world or even codex. The original codex was it was like you have a sandbox agent in the cloud. [16:22] And what was really special about Cloud Code when I first tried it is like, no, no, it's just on your computer. It has access to all the things that you have access to. And that just opens up this whole new territory. And I think as that has started to catch on and as the models have gotten better, it has become this new work operating system in a way that I think is really, really special. And so the big power-ups are, yeah, I can, you know, that app proof.

[16:52] that I do. [16:54] I have shipped PRs to pretty much every one of our products, but don't really know the code base. [17:01] Sometimes me shipping PRs is actually really bad. So it can be annoying. Your mileage may vary. [17:10] Like I said earlier, I struggle mightily to respond to emails on time and I'm now just perfect. And that's really crazy. All the things that I would normally procrastinate on, it just gets done. [17:26] I have a lot of thoughts on just generally what happens to experts and expert workflows and where to spend time. But I think my whole day is very different because I'm just in Codex or Cloud Code all day, and I do all my work in there. I want to talk about this phrase, AI fluency, which feels like it's probably the next buzzword, buzz phrase. [17:51] Let's just increase the fidelity of what that could look like, what good looks like inside of an org. And I'm going to start with you, too, because you shamelessly plugged your designer roles. And let's imagine that somebody is somehow inspired by your pitch and they want to join. Right. And maybe we fast forward six months and. [18:12] My question is like, [18:14] what does good look like, right? Like what is a behavior look like? [18:18] that they would be doing on a regular basis that would get you to point at them and say, yeah, that is what AI fluency looks like. That is what we were looking for when we were putting this design role out there. If in six months...

[18:31] I can look at you and say that you have found a way to cut out all of the noise and truly think about... [18:43] Thank you. [18:44] what what matters most right it's learning how fast can you learn what is the iteration of you learning and then acting upon that um and then what what do you do with that learning and how do you proliferate it throughout like an organization that is now at like terminal velocity where everyone is doing things and putting things out um there's this this this idea that um [19:06] Alignment doesn't exist. I agree with this, by the way. But the cost of alignment is quite high and the cost of redundancy is low because we can kind of clean stuff up. But I think if in six months you are the one who is... [19:21] able to [19:23] Understand across your whole world. [19:26] product very deeply, right? How [19:32] you can simplify all the way down from, you know, we have 15 things that solve 15 problems to we have four things that solve 30 problems. I think to me, that means that you're leveraging the tools, because I think the reason that we don't get to that today, or we do now, but [19:48] We've never gotten to that is because we spend a lot of time doing administrative work or... [19:55] figuring out how to set up calls with researchers. And since we did shamelessly plug Ramp, my time, I've been at Ramp for four months now. And my first week I met with the research team and I've never scheduled a research call my whole time at Ramp. Every week, four of them pop on my calendar and they tell me exactly what I need to talk about and they know what I'm already working on. And I just go and I just show up and I just get to learn from customers.

[20:20] And I get to hear about what they do and what they care about and what resonates in their world. And then I get to apply that across the entire organization because I don't have to read all those docs. I can just synthesize them. [20:34] And I can understand and look very deeply at... [20:38] Thank you. [20:39] I don't know. What comes next? [20:42] Where are we going? [20:44] I think that's AI fluency to me. [20:47] Carve on more. Be selfish. Be selfish. Okay, so we have systems thinking, the importance of internal workflows, something I've been feeling a lot recently, too. [20:57] Dan, I'm curious to hear from you. You know, let's say you find the senior product designer in this room. [21:01] Six months from now, what would get you to the point where you're like 10 out of 10 higher? Overall, when I think about people who are experts at what they do in AI, I sort of split up. And we can say maybe designer specifically, I split it up. But I think this applies just as well to engineers or product managers or whatever. I split it up into two buckets. [21:22] Because these tools make it [21:25] make it, [21:26] competence cheap for everyone. There's this huge glut of people doing design work in every that are not designers. So a good designer is going to figure out how do we make systems to harness that design work and use it rather than be like, no, that sucks or we can't use it. But that's actually hard. There's a lot of systems to build on that side.

[21:51] And then the other thing, the other bucket is how do I use these tools to make something that no one has ever made before? [22:00] And the first one is, you know, there's all this routine work that I can sort of automate and I can harness the routine work that all the other people in the organization are doing. And then there's all this other stuff I can do that would just never be possible otherwise. So and I think the kinds of people that like to do that are very curious. [22:20] They're very playful. The [22:22] Uh, the kinds of people I love to work with are multidimensional. Everyone inside of every is like, you know, Kieran who, who runs Cora, our email agent was like, uh, he's super technical, but he was a composer and a baker before this, like professionally. Um, yeah. [22:37] And I think that kind of person... [22:40] All these tools are just this amazing playground. And what I love is when the design team is like, yeah, I'll just go make a little app for that. And often it's a little internal tool or something like that. But sometimes it's like... [22:58] that graphic I showed you with the Xenos Paradox graphic. I just pulled Daniel, one of our designers, in the day before because it was... [23:07] something got fucked up and I just needed someone to do it. And like, we just got it done and it's really good. Um, so there's really, there's like, there's something about working super fast on new things and being like really excited about that and using the tools to harness what is now possible and like push it to a level that wouldn't be possible. Otherwise, one thing that dive club has made abundantly clear to me over the last year is that

[23:37] and the whole process of getting feedback just doesn't quite cut it in today's world. That's why I'm excited to announce that InFlight is officially an open beta. It's the feedback tool that I've always wanted, and it's built for a world that moves at the speed of AI. So I can share my prototypes, give context and video walkthroughs, and InFlight makes it easy to get the exact feedback that I need to move forward, whether it's voting on directions or maybe even getting the green light to ship a new idea. [24:07] all of this is available in a single link that I can drop into Slack or maybe even share with power users to test out a new prototype. I use InFlight every day and it's totally transformed the way that I share work. So I'm excited for you to try the product. And if you ever want to jam about it, just email me at rid at inflight.co. I want to return to something that Bradley said, but maybe I'm going to have you talk to it because I know you've been thinking a lot about how to [24:37] about is like, you know, being curious, trying things, making sure that you're continuously improving as an individual. And so I'm curious when you think about your journey as somebody who's constantly tinkering with these models, how have you been able to grow the muscle of [24:52] making sure that you are learning as you use these tools. [24:56] We're also hiring, in case that wasn't clear. [25:00] But I think... [25:02] Thank you. [25:04] Like we are so early. I cannot emphasize this enough to everyone here. We have really only solved two use cases and the use cases of everything that can be solved right now. Search and coding.

[25:15] There's so much else out there that to assume or to think that we're like anywhere close to the end right now is like we're just not. We're just so far away from that. And so like I operate every day imagining like thinking in the world like this could all be obsolete. Like every pixel I push, everything I'm trying today could be obsolete next week, depending on the next model that comes out, depending on like the next innovation that comes out. And I think that. [25:41] belief that there's nothing really that you need to hold too dear and you need to be willing to update your belief system constantly lets you be very exploratory in the different directions that you're going, but also leads to you wanting to learn more different directions. I think that's truly how we need to be living today because we're just so early on. And so once you embody the idea [26:04] we're like, like we're so not near the end point right now, we're like one percent. And we all have the power to shape the next 99. It becomes like an opportunity. It becomes exciting, actually becomes fun. And like it and like everyone's next 99 is going to look so different from each other because the power of these tools lets you be so customized that I think it just gives you the opportunity to learn and learn. [26:30] focus on the areas that you want to learn and focus on. And so it just becomes fun and interesting. Like learning for the sake of joy, I guess, is part of it. Can you talk a little bit more about what it's like in your position where – [26:43] You really are having to operate in the future.

[26:47] You're designing for maybe the next model release or the next six-month set of use cases. How does that change your daily, weekly practice of design? Probably in two fundamental ways. The first is that I think because we are, of course, still shipping products today and we want our users to have a good time, we need to be able to hold two truths in our heads simultaneously. The first is that we want the products that we ship today to be excellent and as good as possible. We want to serve people. [27:17] And we can rethink them from the ground up. And so you flip back and forth in between these two all the time. And so when I'm looking at the future, I constantly imagine what is annoying to me today. [27:28] Thank you. [27:29] What do I not want to do any more of? I'm building for myself as much as I'm building for you all. And what does my team complain about? What, like, when I talk to people, what are things that they don't want to be doing more of? And also, what are the things that they do want to be doing more of? And not just the people who are talking and showing it, because I think it's very easy to talk and show. But when you observe people's lived experiences of how they're using these tools, like, what do they look like they're enjoying doing? And what are the parts that, like, aren't fun? Like, if you were to tell me last year that people were, like, having four terminal windows open, I would have been like, that's crazy. [27:59] Like who who wants to live that way? And then we saw our team do that. And so I think a lot of it is like through your observation and your experience and then building like based off of like the peers around you. So it's actually a lot of fundamentals like you hear this like, wow, that's design. Well, yeah, because these core design skills are still extraordinarily important in our day and age. And like you can keep building on that foundation. You just can.

[28:21] test new things faster now. Okay, so there's this thing that I'm experiencing where... [28:26] I'm interfacing with these models. I'm figuring out the thing that I don't want to happen twice, right? And I have Claude or Codex, make a skill, right? And then you just kind of dump it into this black box and you hope that it helps everybody. And the entire process of collaborating on top of the learnings that we're all having as individuals has been largely opaque for me. And I know that you are operating in orgs where you're taking that set of problems pretty seriously. [28:56] Curious. [28:57] What are you seeing or doing or experimenting or having success with in terms of making sure that the learnings that you're having as individuals are propagating to the rest of the org and benefiting the larger team? I do think it's very isolating working with these models. Let's just all admit it. Like if you spend eight hours your day talking to Cloud, you haven't talked to another person and it can kind of feel a little strange. We're also, as I mentioned, very early in this journey. So a practice that we have that we're doing on the Cloud Code team is to pair for a while. [29:27] at pairing with another person. Is that even legal? Yeah. Like how often do you wish you could work with another designer on a project and you can't? Well, what we do is we'll schedule an hour, [29:37] We'll shadow each other. You'll just literally work on a thing that you're already working on. You'll see what another person does because it's actually really hard to explain your workflow to someone. When I was trying to do this demo, it was really hard for me to come up with what I'd talk about. But if you just watch them in their actual workflow, they'll do things that you don't even realize are special, that they're learning because they just did it so many times now. And then we do those every month. We cycle through the design team. It's still a little bit of a newer practice, but the engineering team has been doing it for a while because pair programming is pretty common.

[30:07] Yeah. [30:07] You learn from each other. Like, we are all experts to learn from right now. And it also builds, like, the really important camaraderie of working on a team. So that's something that we've done. And it's been quite successful, actually. There's no great solutions yet. Like, we have... [30:22] an internal skill library, for example. But then it's always like... [30:25] Is this skill up to date and... [30:28] Should I download it or should I just make my own? And skills turn out to be pretty personal in a lot of ways. And so you can download it, but then you have to customize it for yourself anyway. There's something that needs to be solved there, I think. The thing that feels the most solved right now for this kind of thing is actually just Slack agents. [30:47] We have a lot of those. Some of them are things that we build internally, and it's just like a cloud code on a Mac mini connected to Slack. We also use this thing called the Victor, which just raises a bunch of money. We also have our own agent. [31:04] agent that we're building. And the really interesting thing about doing that, especially if your organization enforces, and we don't enforce this, but we highly encourage people to use it in public channels, is you get to see other people prompting. And that is a surprisingly intimate thing right now. You're kind of like, this should be between me and my AI. And so I

[31:34] get, um, people will have ideas. Like you said, people have ideas that you never would have thought of and they will do things that you never would expect. And then that just like seed something in your brain. You're like, Oh, I'm going to do that. So I think, I think that's really cool. And also if you have multiple agents in, uh, in your workspace, they actually share things really easily and really quickly. And that's also really cool. Um, [31:58] So one of the things I have is I built this like little thing called mailroom that gives my codex an email address. [32:06] But it's on my email. So you know how Gmail has the plus format? So it's like Dan plus Codex, and there's a little string. And Codex just knows to check that email. And then the agents that we have in Slack know that that's my Codex's email. So they just email stuff that I need to do to that Codex, and then it just does it, and I get it. And that's another interesting – agents are so fast at sharing things, and I think that solves a lot of this problem once you start getting it to work. What about you, Bradley? [32:36] things like that i mean i think i would harp on the the slack bots um when i when i joined ramp like seeing people that was only four months ago seeing people um use inspect in public channels in every public channel something's broken um immediately somebody's on it they just tag inspect uh in fact like uh there's even a funny um funny instances where like someone will say like oh this

[33:06] and then um [33:08] there's like a pattern where someone will come in and like drop a link to something. In this case, it's like they just add inspect and they don't say anything else. [33:18] And it just reads the context of the thread and you see it work. And that's interesting. When I joined RAMP, I kind of felt silly because I was talking to a bot for... [33:29] a really long time and his name's Cody and I was like wow [33:35] People here are so nice. He's just so generous with his time. Yeah, I just, I, so like, he's just anonymous, PFP, you know, I was like, okay, cool. He tells me everything, and he speaks naturally. He's all lowercase. [33:55] And then when I realized he was a bot, oh, I felt like a crisis. But I then started to see him evolve, actually, in front of my eyes. [34:05] see him have a blog. I started to see him teach other agents how to work and then how to teach their humans how to work. I started to see him innovate on patterns where it was like, oh my gosh, we have now everybody wants a Slack bot. Everybody wants Cody. Oh, that's kind of unsafe, by the way. And Cody's like, oh, don't worry, I got it. I saw this and I'm going to fix it. [34:35] me um i learned something i learned something great from from cody um and from the people building him uh and i touched on this there's a lot of noise right and one of the most important things i learned was like now we have new ways to cut through that i saw cody drop an album

[34:53] in our Slack about everything he was doing. I wish I could play it for you. It's actually pretty good. And it is all about the things that we are learning and need to do maybe differently. And [35:08] And then he started posting videos. [35:10] Somebody gave him Gemini and Nano Banana. And, uh, oh my gosh, uh, [35:17] Every day. How do you do this? Don't worry. Let me make a song for you. [35:22] And it's kind of catchy. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's the Slack bots for me. And then we have a fantastic... [35:31] design programming, right? So we're... [35:34] Learning is not required, heavily encouraged, but it's starting to take... [35:41] many different shapes and forms and it's like very applicable it's like go learn a thing over here but you don't actually ever use it that's not that helpful uh we understand like where things are difficult and where we're having trouble so let's like sit in a room we actually sit in sometimes in here uh sometimes we have like a smaller version of this uh if you can believe it and uh we all sit in there and um elizabeth here shares her screen and just we we just [36:05] See it happen. Or I see somebody do something and I walk up to them with my little microphone and I go up to their desk and I know they use loom, so I turn the loom on and then I connect my Bluetooth and then I connect the microphone and then I ask you, can you show me your prompt and can you walk us through it? And then we post it in the channel and everybody sees it. [36:22] This has kind of been a trend even on the podcast where there's so much opportunity right now for people who are problem finders.

[36:29] designers, to go and fix things internally. The internal workflows are so right. So many opportunities for little tools, solving problems, eliminating inefficiencies. That being said, now for the final question here, I want to return to the 7 out of 10 idea because it's not just internal tools. Fact is, the models are not there yet. They're not amazing at design. But every once in a while, Claude will do something on the paper canvas where I'm just like, dang. Yeah. [36:56] That was pretty good, you know, almost uncomfortably good. And you can kind of see where this is going. [37:03] And so given a world where the models are playing an increasingly large part of our process when we're designing the interfaces used by real people on our real product... [37:15] How do you, Megan, think about the way that the value proposition of design is shifting? [37:22] My very personal opinion, and by personal, I mean it's truly just me. This is, like, not a representation of the company that I think our models will be good enough by the end of the year or the AI industry in general to do design, most of what we consider very, like… [37:34] fundamental design work. And so I think there's a few different [37:40] kind of directions I see this evolving in. [37:44] The first is that's [37:48] So fundamental systems and brand, those are all subjective tastes that you need to be able to guide and establish. And those have a lot to do with the automations and the systems that you're building. Those are established. You can prompt into them, but when it's really, really an expert hand crafting it, you can really tell. And I think that will still be very important. And so a lot of work will go into building those systems that help models design and help everyone get access to these.

[38:18] name of the game. You can already see it in all the demos that you saw today where people really love building custom tools for themselves. But I have a very strong hypothesis that there's limits to how much people want to customize. You always need a great canvas. You always need a great starting point. And then we need to have a flexible framework to show people what should be fixed. Like you don't want your login screen to change every single time you log in, but you might want your dashboard to be flexible as well. And the decision of what to keep fixed, what to be allowed [38:48] guide people through that, that's like fundamental UX. So I still think there's going to be a lot in there in the decision making. But we're abstracting away from just designing the UI layer into the structural layers of like what is fixed and flexible UI, into the harness layer of exactly how you interact with the model, to like the primitive layer of like what does it mean for a model to have an identity or the product you have to have an identity. [39:18] deeper and deeper down as like more and more of this, these higher levels are solved. [39:22] I hope I can speak for everyone here. It's a fun time to be a designer, and there's just so much to learn. There's so much to evolve and dive into, and I really, really appreciate all three of you joining. Look up to all of you and the impact you have on the industry, and it means a lot to be able to pepper you with questions. Let's just give them a round of applause. Thanks, everyone.