Dive Radio: Bumpy Takeoff

[00:00] . [00:01] Thank you. [00:03] - [00:05] - [00:07] Thank you. [00:13] Thank you. [00:15] Thank you. [00:20] - [00:21] - - [00:28] Thank you. [00:30] . [00:34] . [00:40] Thank you. [00:43] Thank you. [00:45] Thank you. [00:46] Thank you. [00:53] Thank you. [00:55] Thank you. [00:57] Thank you. [01:27] Thank you.

[01:35] *Loud music* [01:37] you [01:41] - [01:54] *phone rings* [01:56] I'm going to go to the next one. [02:03] *Loud noise* [02:08] *knock* [02:09] Oh! [02:11] Thank you. [02:12] *knock* [02:12] Oh! [02:14] - - [02:20] What? [02:23] - - [02:35] Hmm. [02:36] Thank you.

[03:06] - - [03:15] and desire for people to just see the flows and the different experiments that people are running and the different learnings that others have. The tooling kind of increases our capacity in the day. We have all the things we can do now because the tooling makes those kind of rope things easier. [03:36] I'm able to go through the spectrum of explorations that are so much larger than I could do in a day [03:45] Agents are using tools. What does that look like and what does that mean? Show up, try things, be curious. I think the future is bright, but it has to be built. I always see things that I didn't plan on seeing. I'm making micro decisions that I didn't have a grid for a year ago, and it's only because of the ability that I can see. [04:15] that aren't fully automated. The ability to effectively multitask at a really high level is one of the core skills of operating in this, like, AI world. No preconceived notions about how things should be done. This is the moment in time right now to free the rewards of the public relations. What do you do with a question, what if? Hey, guys. Hi. What's up, design fam? This is Chloe Park. Jenny Wen. This is Soleil.

[04:45] And you're listening to the Dive Radio Show. [04:53] That worked. [04:54] We did it. We actually did it. [05:01] You don't even know what the last 90 minutes has been like. [05:04] The last 90 minutes, I'd say the last 24 hours. Yeah, let's call it maybe 36 hours. [05:10] So hold on let's let's talk about it. What have the what have the last 24 hours been like for you because you have a lot of stuff you're doing right now? [05:18] I mean, there's a lot of things going on. We're actively trying to release a new version of InFlight. So I have Fable just spinning on one window, and then we're working through all of the audio stuff for the first time. And really, at the end of the day, all of the stress-- I do blame you, because we had a basic set of logistics that I thought you were kind of taken care of, but you stayed up all night working on making AI videos. So what's actually funny is I did-- [05:46] I have never used an AI video tool before, and I use Kling on that. [05:50] intro we just saw last night. [05:52] And I didn't test the timer. And I completely covered the entire interesting part of that video with the countdown timer. So W for me. [06:02] Um, [06:03] On top of that, Fonz has been helping us with some of the refresh that we kind of want to show. [06:09] and get some opinions on. And that poor guy. [06:12] He started on Monday. [06:13] And we're like, hey, we need this by Thursday and...

[06:17] our feedback was pretty... [06:19] Thank you. [06:20] Pretty thorough. I took a screenshot of something that he's just like writing notes and all these Figma files and we'll show it because it's kind of fun. But it's just iconography inspired by deep sea creatures sticking to the side of a ship. [06:36] So if you think your client briefs are annoying, you have no idea what he has been through the last like 72 hours. [06:44] Yeah, yeah. Poor Fonz, who's also just an absolute pro. Yeah, I do want to call out if you're if you're joining us, this is obviously the first live stream. [06:54] of dive radio and uh [06:56] Very bumpy. And you're going to be along for the ride as we kind of evolve this thing over the... [07:01] course of time. [07:03] So thanks for bearing with us. [07:05] Throw tomatoes. We like them. It was tempting. It was tempting to push back a week and just get all of the ducks in a row. But then we kind of thought about what would be fun. [07:14] And so this is almost going to turn into a behind the scenes pilot where you can see like we have a bunch figured out. We're going to try some stuff, but also. [07:23] So much is like in progress and we're actually having a blast working on it and thinking about it. And so we're kind of just going to pull back the curtain and show a little bit about. [07:31] what's happening behind the stream as well and and before we do that i i'm curious to hear from you i i know why this live show is really interesting to me but [07:42] Why is this like an interesting thing to you? You've already got dive club, the podcast. [07:47] Thank you.

[07:48] You know, I don't actually need a lot of logic behind it. I really follow what brings me life. And it's easy for me to identify what that is. And I've only done a few live things. I've done stuff with Kyle Zantos, who I think is in here. I've done stuff with James McDonald before. Every single time I... [08:06] just, [08:07] jump on a live stream and hit record, I walk out super energized. And I used to do a lot of teaching, too. I would do Figma training stuff. And so I think maybe there's a part of me that just [08:17] likes this. [08:18] And you don't get it in the same way with the recording and having things be more polished and [08:24] Oh, brings me life. [08:25] What do you want it to be? [08:28] *laughs* [08:32] Maybe I just want to talk more. Maybe this is really the subconscious answer. I'm just like, ah, I can actually just have like 50/50 back and forth. [08:40] Man, there's so much to talk about at all times. And the... [08:45] it's not even like just new cycles, right? Like the rate of change in tech and definitely design is so [08:51] fast and accelerating rapidly that it [08:54] It's hard to actually keep up with that in a [08:58] productized [09:00] podcast. [09:01] And so to just be able to [09:03] look at cool things together process it riff like just have a sounding board i'm thinking about all types of ideas even as i'm doing the interviews which i'm sure that you are doing too and so creating a space to kind of almost [09:16] digest publicly,

[09:18] I think, I hope that that's going to be [09:21] really valuable not only for people listening but also for us too [09:24] I heard Anthony Bourdain, a clip of him a while back. Yo, Tommy, bump your audio. Bump your audio. Get that mic a little bit closer. We have a couple people saying this is – [09:33] you're a little bit soft. [09:36] Hello, hello. [09:38] Yeah, there's a clip of Anthony Bourdain and he talks about just how people who have the guts to be curious. And I was like, that line stuck with me. And I feel like we're in that phase right now. I love talking to everybody who's going through different things. [09:53] layers of everything that's changing, but I really want a place where I can kind of escape [10:00] and hang out with all the designers who have the guts to be curious. We're kind of exploring this crazy world and it was funny, we were talking about like, "Oh, we should show workflows and these things that we're using in the work we're doing." [10:12] And you said something I really liked, which was, yeah, but let's not call them workflows. [10:17] I think it's better to call them ideas. And I think that's... [10:21] Smart because like we don't we don't have prescriptions like here's just like I could walk you through the wild process that I went through to create that intro or that radio of dive dot radio. [10:34] And it feels pretty good. [10:36] There are things I'd do differently. I don't think I'm ready to prescribe a workflow to it, but there's definitely some ideas of ways that I would repeat that. [10:44] and things I'd do different. And I feel like there's a lot of that missing.

[10:48] in the noise. There's a lot of hype, there's a lot of people making big claims. [10:53] I kind of just want to see how people are messing around. [10:56] And that's hopefully what a little bit of this show is. [11:00] Yeah, even just creating space to show how we are messing around too. It's like if you put something in a, [11:06] like a YouTube, there's like a permanency. [11:09] to the podcast right but if you try to make content that is up to date it's like the opposite of evergreen it becomes out of date in like 90 days tops you know but i'm constantly tinkering and trying things and like looking at other tweets honestly like i come up with so many twits bookmark things like oh my gosh i have to try that you know try it okay how did it work cool like does this become a space to share that kind of stuff maybe we'll see you feel like this new twitter update that x algo where you can now see all the people you follow is that useful to you [11:39] Things going to stick around? You think that's going to create just like... Yeah. Yeah. [11:44] I saw so many people say that they were planning on leaving, but then decided to stay because of it. That's interesting. My only question is, what the hell were they waiting for? Like, what? You're telling me this was a switch? You could just flip the switch? Unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. I want to say hi to everyone who's jumping in here, guys. Josh, I see you. I see Josh Puckett on Contrad. What's up, guys? I see Janelle. Yes, dude. Jeremy. Jeremy. [12:07] Eric, good to see you Chris. [12:10] Chris doing some crazy magic at the Detach party, by the way. If you came to Detach this year, our party we threw at Config...

[12:19] That was a pretty good time. And what that taught me, and that was our third year throwing it, but what it really showed me is I want to do so many things. [12:28] more IRL things. [12:30] Small events, big events, parties, hikes, chats. I wanna do one of these shows. [12:37] in real life. I think that would be really cool. [12:41] I'm down, man. [12:42] Let's do it. [12:44] First, we have to figure out what the show is, but then, yes, we'll do it live. And it's my hope that this show every Thursday, about 90 minutes, becomes a staple. You know what? Dive Radio, I liked this name because I drive home from work way back in the day, and there was a couple select radio programs that would come on in the late afternoon time. [13:04] And they'd always have like segments and they were really cool. And I'd love to evolve that into this. One of the things that I really want to do. [13:11] Because we already do interviews with people. We don't want a show and we're still doing more interviews with industry folks. Yeah. [13:18] You can catch that elsewhere. I want to talk to the community here. We're going to do call-ins. Admittedly, with the delay we had today, it was trying to solve the call-in. We're very close. We don't have the call-in solved today. We will have call-ins solved by next week. So bear with us. But it doesn't mean we can't answer questions in chat. I'm looking at it here, guys. [13:39] remote work IRL party what's up Kyle good to see you man and Kyle Shepard too [13:43] Did we turn off the chat? We did not turn off the chat. [13:46] And I would say this too, we're streaming to both of our YouTube channels, both of our X channels. So we see everything that's coming through.

[13:55] but you might not see some of the community, I would probably recommend if you want to jam with each other too, go to the Dive Club YouTube stream. It's probably a pretty good... [14:06] Pretty good group. [14:08] Dude. [14:10] It's been about a week. [14:12] and change since I think we've been able to compare fable five and GPT 5.6. And there's already rumors of like, [14:21] opus five right around the corner and all these things and by the way we are going to talk a lot about ai how can you not [14:27] How can you not right now? There's so many things to talk about with it. [14:31] What's your daily driver, man? How are you feeling? [14:35] He was funny with all the Fable stuff came out and... [14:39] I blitzed through my credits twice. Yeah. So I think there's actually like a new skill to figure out how to be more token efficient. And I've built like, [14:47] delegate skills where I can like have Fable spawn sub agents and report back. That's working pretty well. [14:54] I have had multiple times where I've just been in a loop and I can't solve something, but I'm still using like I like called. I've been using 4.8 Opus as my daily driver. [15:03] I've started doing more GPT. So you're using 4.8 as a daily driver. [15:10] It's been my daily driver for so long, and now I'm like actively going like 50-50. [15:15] between that and GPT. Like it's very, it's very clear. I think that five, six is, [15:21] I probably should just make a shift to do that. [15:23] um [15:24] I pit them against each other right now. This is kind of what I've been doing a lot of. Did you see – What about you? Did you see – Well, I mean I –

[15:31] it's hard because I'll say this 5.6 seems to be I really like it it's obviously very efficient like I feel like I'm just not hitting my limits and I'm blowing through them on fable. [15:43] Yeah, same. [15:45] I feel like I get really... [15:47] I feel like I'm on like mushroom trips with fable. Like all of a sudden it'll give me some insight and I'm like, Whoa, whoa, [15:53] That's really... [15:55] interesting, whereas 5.6 feels like I'm working with an extremely competent engineer. [16:01] Yeah, I think that's secret. You know what I mean? Like one is like I go to the village noble and the other is like this is the engineer in the room. But I will say I've started having more open ended brainstorming because I'm having so much success thinking through more meaty challenges with Fable. [16:19] Like really open ended. Let's just do you orchestrate with fable and then and then get like do the grinding work with 5.6. That's a that's a workflow that I've seen a lot of people do that I've been doing lately. [16:31] Yeah, I have been doing that. I've actually also just been leaving it up to Fable, too, about what it wants to spawn. But yeah. [16:39] I don't know, I find myself chatting with Fable more like I'm having more [16:44] brainstorm me back and forth than I was before because I feel like the output from Fable is so good. [16:50] Like, it's so good. [16:52] I want to hear from the chat what you guys are rocking with as your daily driver. Where's your preference at? Have you had any of your – [17:00] code base is deleted. Have you seen this?

[17:03] I did. [17:04] You feel for those people, man. At first I thought it was a joke. They're like, oh, it deleted all my root files. And then they're like, no, it deleted my whole project. [17:12] Then I saw... [17:13] open AI say we're looking into this and I thought, [17:16] Well, that's kind of a... [17:18] That's kind of a weird thing to suddenly be popping up as a... [17:21] recurring issue. I don't know how recurring it is or if I saw one tweet and then I saw all the tweets around it. [17:27] But I thought that was kind of interesting that that was happening. You saw Grok getting a lot of... [17:32] Uh... [17:33] I guess they were uploading code bases. [17:36] And then they decided to turn it off. [17:39] in some weird way. So a lot of interesting stuff getting more and more compelling to try and get local models working. I installed a local model a week ago. [17:48] Oh, how's that going? [17:50] Thank you. [17:51] There's your answer. I've got a Mac Mini. Yeah, I'm not in love with it yet, but it's like I could see it because listen like [17:59] The frontier models are still just like they're just on a different level. [18:03] You know what I mean? And I want I want to believe in local and a lot of their estimates that local models are going to be at like the four point eight level within the next six months. Who knows? [18:13] Um, eventually though, it will be extremely compelling and, um, [18:17] I'm worried, so I do a bunch of video stuff, and so I've got, [18:22] like 20 terabytes of footage that I have to store. [18:25] And I... [18:28] I'm realizing whether it's buying a server for storage, they're buying like compute locally.

[18:34] We're going to need to build some stuff there. Like the Mac minis are already out of like, they're already either out of stock or they're extremely higher price than they were. [18:42] I want to just build a rig and just be ready to install the local models when they're actually worth using. [18:48] I've had a Mac Mini sitting unopened on my desk for like four months. [18:53] Because my co-founder, Kyle, just sent it to me in the middle of all the open call-out buzz. And... [18:59] I don't know, man. I just didn't want to die. I just didn't want to dig in. It just felt like a lot, but I just set it up. This last weekend, I'm like, I have the base foundation. I'm like, okay, now what? I think a lot of it is kind of preparing for local, though. You're going to learn the UX challenge. There's like a weird challenge here that now when you're connected, there's this, you're connected to multiple devices. You're on your primary device, and then you're [19:22] screen sharing into your Mac mini and you're using the apps in there too. And it creates this like, and apparently like there are people who have multiple Mac mini, so they're having to do this. And I'm like, [19:33] What a weird... [19:35] It's weird. Challenge. It's a weird, it creates this weird UX thing that like we need to solve somehow. I don't know. Yeah. I was even like, I use clean shot all the time. And so I can, I can seamlessly move my mouse between my laptop and then my monitor, which is now doing the Mac mini. But like the screenshotting is a different. [19:53] UX on both of them, it's so trippy, man. It took me a second to even just orient myself. [20:00] I think I mostly hated it, but I believe in the importance of it in the long run. So I'm just like forcing myself to go through it.

[20:08] all of the logistics of getting it set up. So I'm curious if there's anything that's caught your eye in the last week or so. For me, I've been messing around. And I know, like, you use Super Whisper? What voice UI do you use? Yeah. Super Whisper? [20:23] I use Super Whistler. I do too. I use it for everything productivity related. And GPT Live came out, and so I've been messing around with that. [20:33] And I like it. Like it's really, it's fast. It moves. It's only at 5.5. So I'm not using it for work-related things, [20:40] But I am like I had it help me in the kitchen and I was cooking stuff. And it was funny. I had this moment where I'm just like yapping with with it. And it's joking with me. We're going back and forth. I'm like, oh, this feels like. [20:51] This feels like the movie Her. [20:53] Because it's like, we're jamming. And I make this like wonderful sandwich, breakfast sandwich that we put together. [21:00] And so I have Alexa set up over here. [21:05] And while I'm talking to it, I turn to Alexa and go, hey, Alexa, set a timer for five minutes. And then the thing's like, no, no, no, you need to set it for 10 minutes. But at five minutes, I'm like, oh, I'm like, Alexa, actually change that to 10 minutes. And Alexa just bricked like that task was just not feasible. And I was like, oh, darn it. I forgot. You're dumb. You're a dumb robot. And so I had to like, you know, reverse the steps. But what it made me realize is the UI, the voice UI, I really, really like I'm still going to use Canvas. [21:35] there's still gonna be a need for screens [21:37] I think there's a world not far from now where voice UI is actually my primary interface for most technology.

[21:44] I think we're so close to it. And now OpenAI is talking about their first hardware release, that speaker... [21:52] Voice puck. [21:54] And [21:55] Do you know when they said that they're thinking about releasing that? I didn't see a date. I'm not sure if there was one. I'm going to look this up real quick. It's so, just like a quick sidebar too, like if anybody here has not [22:07] just played with the new voice mode in GPT, it's so worth 10 minutes of the time. Like it really is trippy. It's super cool. [22:14] last night, so we're having all these back and forths on just the million things that we're trying to figure out to make this happen. [22:20] And I got to pick my mother-in-law up from TJ Maxx, 9.30 p.m. And, you know, high on top of the totem pole of things to do. And I'm sitting in the parking lot waiting for her. And I got GPT going and I'm just talking to it. And it's crazy. [22:34] It's shockingly good. You know, it's right away. You're like, okay, this is a little bit trippy, but I'm, I'm generating images to mood board. The thing that we talked about where like, maybe the final segment is the phone on the bottom of the ocean floor and people can call in. And so I'm, I'm. [22:50] playing with that and I'm playing with like [22:52] black photography stuff as well. And I'm just talking with GPT and then you can swipe down [22:59] and review the images so it like really felt like a creative director right like i'm having a conversation the images [23:06] me [23:07] in voice mode and I did it intuitively. Like it just felt like, yeah, I should be able to pull this down. I pulled it down and it actually closes that window and you're back in your chat. So you can scroll up through your chat history while you're talking. Yeah. It's awesome. But my chat history is all images.

[23:22] So I'm like reviewing imagery and having a verbal critique session about this [23:29] concept that I'm making in voice mode on my phone in a TJ Maxx parking lot like, damn, this is the future. [23:35] It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been using it for other like super unproductive things. I play a lot of Dota 2, which is like a 4D. [23:44] chess computer game. And so like I, I wanted coaching. And so I have it live and I'm talking to it while I'm talking to my teammates, playing this like super complex game with all these different variables you have to manage. And it's given me all these tips and it's coaching me through this whole thing. And I recorded that session and then I recorded and it was funny. It made a, I've been playing this game for a decade plus. Yeah. [24:05] And it made a recommendation. And I was like, no, no, no, no, like that's wrong. And it was a very like nuanced recommendation. [24:12] And it was like, just trust me, do this. You're going to need it for this thing. [24:16] And then five minutes later, I did it. I did it for the thing it mentioned. My teammates go, that was one of the big-- that you probably just won us the game because of that Lotus move. And I was like, that's crazy. That's pretty cool. It was just like a cool little moment to show that this is happening. [24:31] Um... [24:33] You see these you see these talk socks. [24:36] Have you seen these? [24:37] This made me think of you. [24:42] And I want to show, it made me think of you because [24:46] - - [24:47] I know that you're walking around the house [24:50] doing this. Oh yeah. [24:52] Oh, yeah.

[24:53] You've seen these? This is ridiculous, by the way. [24:58] Thank you. [24:59] This isn't like there's a real prototype of it somewhere. [25:02] Like this is a thing that people are actually using. [25:06] You wouldn't use this? [25:08] No, it... [25:10] It's... [25:10] No, it makes me physically uncomfortable to look at that thumbnail. [25:14] Wait, how much is this? [25:16] $2.99. [25:17] What a steal 292 299 by the way my sound not working on this one. I thought we solved this did we not? [25:25] Thank you. [25:25] That sounds about right. [25:27] Sounds about par for the course here. Yeah. [25:30] It's okay. We'll get there. Yeah, these noise-canceling masks. This is ridiculous, dude. [25:35] Thank you. [25:35] Do you feel rude to [25:39] when you are [25:41] talking to your AI, do you try to like sneak away out of earshot? [25:47] Yeah, I didn't realize this until I was working in person out of South Park Commons. I was in their SF offices. [25:54] And I didn't realize how much I was talking to AI until [25:57] that [25:59] Weak. [25:59] And then I was like, I feel so uncomfortable. [26:02] I didn't have one of the little like, you know, whisper mics kind of thing. Um, [26:07] But... [26:09] I don't know. I found myself just like sneaking into closets in order to like talk with AI. I don't know. I do feel I do. I don't feel rude, but I feel self-conscious. I'm also the kind of person that would like never answer a phone call in an airplane. You know, that just gets me inside. I just thinking about that idea.

[26:28] Are there moments you prefer to type verse talk I get I get like I'll sometimes not do a task because I'll be doing three other tasks and it's like oh I have to type that one out like I'll I'm not gonna do that right now then because for some reason I can't like if I'm not at my phone and I'm at my computer I don't even like to have to like. [26:44] I got to open Super Whisper. I just I'm always on my phone yapping. You know this. [26:48] We were debugging this even before. Like in the 30 minutes, we were working through all these different audio issues, and it's just-- [26:55] Us talking with AI, both trying to solve our own issues, [26:59] It's a weird little glimpse into the future. Thankfully we don't have TalkSox though because that [27:04] feels like a Black Mirror episode that I don't like. Can I just, yeah, that does. And actually I want to call out Brad just said, I don't want people to see how dumb my prompts are. Yeah, exactly. [27:14] How are your how dumb are your prompts? [27:17] I contradict myself in the middle of the problems all the time. I'm like, da-da-da-da-da, do this, do this, do this. Actually, wait. [27:23] "No, don't do that. Let's do this instead." I just hit send on that all the time. [27:28] I love working with AI because I have the freedom to not find the right words and to be super verbose and to just sound like a complete moron. And then I'm like, oh, we're going to go live and show people how we do our things. I'm like, oh, no, that's terrifying. Like I misspell almost every word. [27:47] It's a mess. [27:48] I feel you, Brad. I feel you. [27:51] Um... [27:52] Are you a car guy by chance? [27:55] Thank you. [27:56] Is this your lane?

[27:59] Depends on what you mean by car guy, because when I hear car guy, I think like appreciation of the decades and an understanding of how anything in an engine works. [28:08] which I am not. [28:10] Am I interested in some of the more futuristic concepts that remove me from a driver's seat? Yes. [28:17] So I think that makes me not a car guy, probably. [28:19] Are you rocking the... [28:23] I saw this. [28:25] I... [28:26] I love this. [28:29] What do you love about this? [28:30] It looks... [28:34] Pull. [28:35] on something that is carrying around. It's like moving me around my vacation resort. [28:41] This is what I mean by being a car guy. It's like, [28:43] I think this is kind of fun. [28:45] But I wouldn't drive a charger or anything that made noise. [28:49] Is this... [28:51] Is this like a road legal? This is a road legal car, I'm assuming, right? Yeah, yeah. I was assuming so. It looks like a golf... [28:59] Cart, hybrid meets. Yeah. Yeah. [29:02] There was another one of the golf carts that went super viral like 10 days ago too. [29:06] It's like, it feels like, I don't know, but the fact that we have all of these new, I don't know what this one cost. The other one was like 20 grand, dude, for a golf cart. [29:16] But the fact that [29:17] Like people obviously believe in this, like they believe in this as being an important [29:21] method of transportation in the future. [29:25] which I think is odd. It's not something I saw coming. [29:27] Yeah. [29:28] Kind of interesting. I saw...

[29:31] This was interesting, the Tinder rebrand. [29:34] What do you think it is? I sent it to my co-founder, Kyle, who is one of the first designers at Tinder. Are you allowed to share his thoughts? Ah, man, I should have pulled it up. I think he just laughed at it, basically. [29:50] I, you know, like I can see the mood. [29:54] They're going for it here. [29:55] Big mood board fan, by the way. [29:58] But on an island, I don't... [30:01] You know, it's yeah, it's not bad. It just doesn't do anything for me. It's fine. [30:08] This is like the thing that we were talking with Fonz about. [30:12] Fonz is an absolute pro. We've both worked with him on other projects. Like he's one of the top three people I recommend every single time someone asks me for his skill set. And he gave us a bunch of like quick mood variations in like six hours. [30:25] and they're beautiful. [30:27] Right. And I think some of the feedback was like, [30:31] These could fit in a lot of different contexts, different startups. [30:35] And I think your feedback was, [30:37] I want something that if it was put on any other startup's website, it would look absolutely absurd. [30:43] Like what is I use the word foolish. I said I wanted to be foolish. If any sass like ingested our design MD file and used it, it should feel foolish. [30:52] They should get angry letters from their investors. [30:55] You got some angry letters recently. [30:59] When I look at the Tinder rebrand, I feel like, yeah, I could probably interplay this.

[31:05] across a lot of different contexts. That's the next hot HR startup. [31:10] Yeah, the next like data docs. [31:14] Yeah. Let's go. [31:15] Speaking of hot... [31:17] startups. I don't even know. Can we call Cursor a startup anymore? [31:21] Dude. [31:22] Yeah, how do you define startup? It certainly can't be by valuation or size anymore. [31:29] - You know Mamuso here? [31:31] - Manuel? - Of him. I don't know. I haven't met him, no. - I met him when I went and filmed with Vercel. - Oh yeah, you did on site. - Beautiful human being. Just a wonderful person. [31:42] I was kind of shattered. I was like, there's no way. He left Vercel at some point in the recent past. [31:49] And just found out he's at Cursor. [31:51] And then we found out in like almost the same 24 hour period that Jenny Wen left Anthropic. [31:58] Like six hour period, dude. Went to Cursor. She went to Cursor as a head of design, by the way. And it sounded like I immediately bopped over to Riolu's... [32:07] Twitter and I was like, what's going on here? And it sounds like he's like, now I get to just build. [32:13] And so it sounds like he really wanted to lean into... [32:16] Sounds perfect. [32:18] Do I get it? Imagine, head of design and you're scaling that quickly, that's a set of design challenges that are operational and organizational. They sound horrible, to be honest. They sound horrible. To wake up every day and have that on my plate sounds tough. I'm happy for them. It sounds perfect for both. [32:34] Rio and Jenny. Like what a huge, huge deal to get

[32:38] brought in like that as Jenny. It's amazing. [32:41] They're a talent magnet, man. And can we just talk about the fact that [32:46] I can't, timelines are insane. We're all aging in dog years, but like, it felt maybe, I don't know, six to eight months ago, that Cursor was just like, eh, just life support from enterprise contracts. And now it is as cool as it gets, dude. Everybody I'm talking to is switching back to Cursor. If they're not already on it, they're attracting the most elite talent in the industry. [33:06] Crazy, crazy comeback arc. [33:08] Now, you're not a cursor user, right? [33:10] I'm not. I'm still a team conductor. [33:13] - Cursor's a big tool in our household. My teens love cursor. It's really like, it's a really accessible product for them. - Yeah. [33:23] And I think there were claims, and I'm not validating this, but [33:27] That like at least at one point you were getting... [33:30] more tokens out of like your Fable 5 usage at one point. I don't know if that's true or not. [33:36] I didn't know that. [33:37] But they certainly were my my teens just like grinding on it. [33:40] I like Cursor. I like Cursor a lot as a product. It's clear they're attracting a lot of talent. I think the SpaceX acquisition is really compelling. [33:48] I'm curious to see kind of where this is. It sounds like they're taking incredibly big swings too, like coming at GitHub. They said that that's going to be like a fall thing. [33:57] If [33:58] I don't know, it feels like every major player right now is building the same thing, but the same thing is just everything, end to end, full stack, every possible thing that you would need. And so in a world where Cursor...

[34:09] is an actual alternative [34:12] to GitHub, it's agent orchestration, it's everything that you would need in an IDE. They're probably bringing in more review functionality. They've all these tools have started showing the PR natively inside of the tool like, [34:23] You could just do every single step of the process in cursor and in that world, [34:29] Man, they're going to have a lot. I mean, it's going to be a magnet. It's going to be hard to leave. [34:34] Yeah, I'm very interested. I think the days of focused products are... [34:41] I don't want to say they're over, but it is interesting and noteworthy to see [34:45] companies like Mid Journey is now also a health company. Okay. And like Cursor is going to be, you know, psychiatry. I don't know. Like what else is Cursor going to do? Because I think I [35:01] with cursor there was an initial reaction in the earlier days when they what was their name it was any sphere or something yeah and people were like [35:09] What are you trying to replace VS Code for? Like, there's no way you're going to do that. VS Code is the tried and true thing. [35:15] And now it's like, [35:17] Who in here is using... I was a VS Code user. [35:21] Is there anyone here using VS Code? You can install AI plugins in Cloud, and they've got a great ecosystem. [35:27] Ridd, I know you're not using VS Code. I think the design community is going to shame anybody who says that they're using VS Code right now in the chat. I'm just going to throw that out there. [35:37] You know, and it's kind of, it's interesting to see...

[35:41] It's interesting to see the big swings becoming the defaults. [35:47] But it's also it's got to be hard, man. I do not envy you. [35:51] I don't envy anybody building software tools right now. I get a lot of FOMO. [35:58] talking to the people who are doing it. And then like, I talked to people offline and they're like, it is hard, harder than ever. Yeah. [36:06] Dude, it's freaking hard, man. It's freaking hard. Because it just feels like everybody's, like I said, like everybody's building... [36:11] Everything everything's so copyable right like tech is always bundled and unbundled and [36:16] It's since the dawn of time, it's been the cycle that we've been. And this is just the greatest bundling in history because [36:23] the marginal cost of every new feature is like nothing. It's nothing. [36:28] - Yeah. - You know? I've prototyped [36:30] So many versions of all of these features [36:34] that all of these tools are building, it's easy, man. Anybody in this list can one-shot all of the visual inspect or agentation-style tools that are now table stakes in all of these tools. [36:46] So it's like, of course, all the best features and all the best UX approaches get copied in like hours, not weeks. [36:52] Yeah, Liz, good to see you. Yeah, yeah, that's my understanding early on to a fork of VS code. And and so like open source, you know, how do you what has been your take on open source? Have you ever dabbled in open source? Do you have any like [37:08] inclination to go in that direction with where software is going?

[37:12] I was thinking about it a little bit more recently. [37:16] Because have you ever heard of reflect notes? Maybe some people here use that. [37:20] That's what I've used for notes for a while, but then... [37:23] there was this shift where I wanted everything to be local. [37:27] And I wanted to be able to change things, and so I actually built my own note-taking environment, because I didn't like Obsidian, so I was just reskinning it my way. [37:36] I left reflect even though I liked the product because it wasn't open source. [37:42] And then sure enough, like six months later, I think actually two days ago, they just released [37:47] the reflect, [37:48] open. [37:50] that I've been already starting on. [37:51] And I don't know, I feel like it's... [37:55] There are certain types of tools, but that is a requirement, actually. [37:59] It has to be extensible. [38:03] What do you think makes it like, okay, so for example, [38:06] Grok build just open sourced. [38:09] the harness for their coating. Did you see this? That was yesterday. I didn't know. [38:13] And I thought that was so much news. It's like it's like, how do we get through it? And that's why we're going to talk a little bit about it before we get into the build fund stuff. [38:20] And so, okay. [38:22] So Elon, so SpaceX, they're just like, okay, Grok, we're going to open source the coding harness around Grok. [38:28] so that anyone here can just build on top of it. [38:31] What do you think, what's the decision around that? What pushes a product to say, [38:36] it is beneficial for us. [38:39] to open source. [38:40] What would make the math make sense?

[38:43] where you go, actually, in-flight should be open source. [38:48] Man, I don't know. [38:52] I'm going to ask all the hard questions. [38:57] Just throw it in the bucket of insane strategic decisions. [39:02] that I didn't anticipate having to [39:04] be faced with. [39:07] I don't know. I really don't know. [39:09] Well, not problems I have to solve because I'm in the middle of trying to make money making media, which is also its own thing. Very, very hard. Can't open source media. [39:20] I don't know. Could you? [39:21] Did you open source media? Open source my voice, create an 11 labs. I was about to say, you could totally just license your voice, man. It's [39:30] Could I, though? Like licensing a voice sounds so... [39:34] It's starting to feel antiquated. Like, do you need to license a voice? I'll just go to 11 labs. [39:40] There's better voices than mine, man. I was listening. I follow a lot of like voice over artists and voice actors. And there's like, there's just such differences to people who are really pros like they act it out and they make faces and they're just very good at delivery. [39:54] Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, I do want to talk a little bit about something that's cooled off a bit since last week. [40:03] And I gave a take on this. I think we talked briefly about it. [40:07] But... [40:08] you know, I haven't had a chance to like vent about this and I do want to. And so I

[40:15] I want to hear your take and I want to do a little bit of moaning [40:20] about Gal Shear, who, by the way, the most latest and greatest from Gal Shear, he's painting. [40:27] Gal is painting. It looks good, too. It looks good. Yeah. [40:30] I love this. I'm wondering how he films this, by the way. He always has these overhead... [40:34] Looks like he's just holding the phone, maybe. [40:37] I think you're showing the cursor tab. [40:39] Oh, I sure am. Yeah. [40:41] There we go. [40:42] That's not the right one. [40:44] Mm-hmm. [40:45] There we go. [40:46] I love this. [40:47] So this is what Gal's up to. [40:50] The other shoe dropped, and it turns out [40:54] He was announcing. [40:56] that he is making art. [40:57] And I love that because everyone was so cynical about this take. I want to say something about this. We're going to get into this. We're going to touch on it briefly. We'll move on. But I do want to say something because it really ticked me off. [41:11] This is why Gal [41:13] Earned. [41:14] hundreds of thousands of followers on X. It wasn't to engagement farm people. [41:18] I haven't followed him through his whole journey, but I'm fairly certain he saw some explosive growth. [41:25] After he shared that visual of headroom. [41:29] Right? [41:30] Let's find that real quick. One of the best brand release videos I've ever seen. [41:35] Like genuinely this was in so in film, we call this a match cut where you keep a central object in the focus. [41:43] and the composition around it is changing. And he goes even further and extends that concept

[41:49] And he's great at it. [41:50] Um, it's like, so he comes out and he's announcing, Hey, I'm retiring. Uh, I had a client that, [41:58] who basically used AI [42:00] And AI beat me. [42:02] Where is that post? Is it sticky? It must be. [42:05] you know? [42:07] And I just want to call something out. I do understand that there were people who read this and immediately felt like this was an affront to all the things that they've invested into and believe in. But Gal never said design is dead. [42:22] He might have insinuated parts of that, but didn't say that. And he certainly never said, you, designer, should quit because AI is going to beat you. [42:31] Those things were never said. He said, I'm retiring because this experience with AI. [42:37] And he got dogpiled by the design community for this take. I mean, and even adjacent, you had VCs, you had the all-in crew talking about this. You had Dylan Field comments about this. [42:51] It made the rounds. I know everyone in this room has already seen this talked about. [42:56] And I just thought that that was really interesting that [42:59] This is such a hot topic that AI can do some work. [43:03] that people are going to come at someone like Gal, who I think is – [43:07] His logo marks are good, but it's his packaging and the motion graphics that I think he's extremely spiky in. And if anyone... [43:14] challenges that I think that that's a I don't agree with that. What are your thoughts on that? I

[43:20] I think there's, you kind of got to look at it from the output. [43:23] that was produced by whatever the situation was, and then also the inputs that were given to the model. [43:30] Because... [43:32] I [43:34] I don't know if you saw, there was this article that went viral. It was career advice in the age of AI. [43:40] If you didn't read it, I'll just spoil it in two lines, because I actually thought it was really great. And he talked about the fact that the models are getting... [43:48] really good at executing against well-defined problems. [43:52] And for sure that's in code. And honestly, in design, [43:56] It's kind of the case, too. I haven't told anybody this. Hopefully, the people from my team are not here, but I had Fable [44:05] ideate and generate some mockups about this feature set that I'm working on and [44:12] like visual editing of a PR kind of thing. And they're pretty good. You know, like, I made like, maybe a couple tweaks, they're pretty good. And I was showing the concept on zoom screen sharing, this was on Monday. And [44:24] my co-founder was just like, [44:25] Damn, you crushed it on that. That looks crisp. That's some of your better work. And I'm gutted because, dude, it was mostly fable. It's mostly fable. That feels uncomfortable. And I think that that is probably a lot of what Gallant was talking about where it's like, [44:40] Given the thing that you want to accomplish, what is the output? [44:43] like AI is getting good at it, right? It's getting good at it. - Yeah. - Now, [44:47] The article, what I liked was basically the TLDR was don't be a problem solver.

[44:53] which is what we've defined ourselves as, as designers for so long. [44:56] You know, execute against this problem, solve the problem, you know, be a problem finder instead. That's where the alpha is. If you can find problems and set AI up for success to help you nail it down and create something worth sharing. [45:14] That's where the opportunity is, which is why I then go back to the gal thing. I'm like, what was like, is there a chance that maybe the founder themselves was [45:24] actually had pretty good ideas, you know, had some kind of novel insight. And like, given that, yeah, I mean, [45:32] when the output that you're paying for is [45:35] pixels and motion and colors. [45:38] All of that can be trained. [45:40] That's tough, you know? [45:42] So I had this thought and the thinking was that, [45:47] Um, one of two things. It was either Gal was in fact farming for engagement was going to release a tool. He's released tools before has a color tool in the past. [45:57] Um, [45:58] Not really his style. So I was like, that'd be interesting. And I don't know that it would be very effective because he was in the comments like, [46:05] assuring people that wasn't going to be the case. [46:08] And then the other thought was like maybe a client did go and farm all of his match cut motion graphics – [46:16] fed it to Fable 5, [46:19] And, you know, maybe maybe still had someone create a logo mark and like showed him like, look what you can do. I can do your I can do your your spiky thing.

[46:28] Without you. [46:29] And maybe he was like, okay, I'm flipping the table, I'm done. So I tried. So I went, and I'm not releasing this, but I went and pulled his work. And I was like, Fable, go look at this. And would you be able to create a Galshier skill [46:44] that would take my UX tools logo mark, [46:47] and build it into this brand presentation. And I'm gonna show you [46:51] what that looks like. I have to pull it up. Give me just a second here. [46:56] I'm so glad that you did this. I want to ask you. [47:01] How do you think it did? [47:06] Ah, man. [47:08] Let me share this. We're using like, like, re-motion. Is that... [47:12] What you're using? Remotion. So Claude Fable 5 on Max and Remotion were the two things. [47:20] that I made use of there. [47:24] I think it's going to be cool. I think it's going to look good. [47:26] I don't think it's going to be that close to your bar for actually putting your name behind something that you would share out in the world. I think it'll mostly just be like – [47:35] Interesting as a hobby is my I don't think it will be bad, though. [47:39] So we're not going to look at... There is some sound to these. We were having some sound issues outside of... [47:45] So you're not gonna see that. But I basically said, hey, [47:49] We've got some motion graphics. I got a brand here. A bunch of posts of gals from his videos. I want you to analyze these videos. And then I attached it. My SVG of the UX tools brand mark. Again, the golden here is not to release any sort of skill. I'm not going to do that here. But I do want to see if it is able to do this. And so it went in and.

[48:12] That's not the one that I want to see. Let's pull up. [48:15] Thank you. [48:17] Oh, that's interesting that the... [48:19] Sheet. [48:22] Okay. [48:23] There we go. [48:24] Yeah, I want you to actually see here... [48:28] "How it parsed the parts of Gal's projects?" [48:34] Um... [48:38] So this is showing. [48:40] a lot of [48:41] Mine. [48:43] Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. So first it built the skill, did the markdown. And then I said, OK, we also need to feed you some brand guidelines so you know how to incorporate these into the ideas that you come up with. I did not give it any sort of composition direction. This was this was not a one shot, but pretty close to that idea. [49:02] I really want you to see [49:05] Not my examples. I want you to see how it broke down his videos, but we may have to forego that part of it if I can't figure that out. [49:12] Um, [49:14] Artifacts? [49:15] No. [49:16] Okay. Well, let's look at this, all right? [49:19] Here was version one. [49:21] All right, let's see how this did. [49:23] Thank you. [49:24] Thank you. [49:25] Thank you. [49:29] Thank you. [49:31] Thank you. [49:32] Bye. [49:33] Thank you. [49:34] Thank you. [49:37] All right. You know, so, uh, uh, so that was interesting. That last part was interesting, actually. Mostly ass, right? Mostly ass.

[49:49] It's mostly ass, but it also makes me realize that sound design is everything. If it had a baller soundtrack, you probably would have been like, yeah, that's pretty cool. And what you can't hear was there's actually quite a bit of little boop-bop-boop-bop sounds happening inside of this. So I was like, okay, maybe we got some stuff wrong. Maybe I can pull a couple levers. And so that's what I did. I said, hey, let's get a little bit closer to a few things. There's some stuff here that I'm not really vibing with. [50:14] Um, and I think, [50:15] I think this might be V2. [50:18] Thank you. [50:19] Thank you. [50:20] very similar. Hmm. [50:24] Mm-hmm. [50:26] And I was like, okay, I get it. Like we're going down this, let's change paths. Let's go a different direction. [50:33] 'Cause I'm not feeling that. I appreciate that it's pulling in some of the brand guidelines. [50:37] Yeah, the sounds came through okay. Oh, interesting. [50:41] Oh, it must be my microphone. I think they're coming through your mic. That's right. So we went a different direction, right? Still same brand guidelines, but let's-- [50:49] Let's think about [50:51] Thank you. [50:51] Thank you. [50:53] Oh. [50:54] Thank you. [50:56] Thank you. [50:58] you know like the it's making me feel better um and oh yeah what's that alignment yeah yeah yeah [51:12] Thank you. [51:13] And it's really interesting because I had someone that we'll look at in a bit here talk about.

[51:21] how [51:22] You know, we're not going to be farmers just yet with a lot of this stuff. But, you know, like the one thing that this did point out to me, and I think this might be like one last iteration we'll take a quick peek at here. So there's like some particling happening and... [51:37] It really likes this wavelength thing. Yeah. Like... [51:42] It's just been getting progressively corny through each iteration. It's like really trying to push the envelope, but it's just not good. And this is the thing that I find a lot of use with – [51:53] AI right now. I mean, there's a number of use cases, but one of my favorite ways, I love the way that you were communicating with Fonz. You created a grid, and we'll show this stuff in a bit here. [52:04] And you're like, first and foremost, here's what I don't want. [52:08] And I love starting with what you don't want. And sometimes like you're not entirely sure what you don't want. And if you need some help figuring that out, ask AI to put something together for you. [52:20] And I think that'll really help you in the kind of [52:23] in the same vein of mood boarding, right? Mood boarding is a great way for me, and I'll show how I mood board a bit later, [52:30] to identify, Hey, here's the vibe and the things that I want, but I really like AI because it, it, [52:36] it enlightens me on the things that I certainly don't want. [52:39] um so i don't think this was it was interesting the amount of this [52:42] like the percentage of things that I didn't want, that I was sharing, that were generated by AI. It's interesting too. [52:49] Like this was the first time that I had went through a branding process where

[52:54] I'm super comfortable just using like GPT image and like on Cosmos and like feeding AI like, OK, let's make it like this more like this. Having AI create mood boards for me. [53:04] It was my first time going through this process, and I do... [53:07] just because we were designers, like, [53:09] these tools allowed for a slightly more participatory branding process. Maybe that drove Fonz crazy. I don't know. But it was interesting to see like the impact of you mood boarding, for instance. [53:23] We'll have to ask – yeah, because I felt like the mood – I actually felt – [53:29] I really enjoyed my mood boards. I felt like I worried that it was maybe derailing. [53:34] a trajectory he was trying to go on. [53:36] And so we'll have to interview Fonz one day. Hey, what's it like to take feedback from us? And he's like, oh, it was awful. But I did get some, you know, I did ask some of the industry what their thoughts were on some of this stuff. And we'll see if the sound's working on this. It may not be. [53:52] But we'll give it a quick go. [53:54] Is this coming through? [53:55] I woke up, saw Gal's tweet, and much like everybody else, was really sort of waiting for the punchline that never came. And I think one of the reasons why this tweet went as viral as it did was because, you know, if you do buy into the doom and gloom vision of AI and how it affects the industry, which many people do, you know, you'd really expect Gal to be one of the last people to hold the line and wave the white flag. And so to me, you know, that whole thing seemed confusing, off, really out of pocket, and very premature, if nothing else.

[54:25] You know, this is pure speculation, but part of me thinks that it may be less about AI sort of ending a career and more about it sort of accelerating a decision that has already been in the works for quite some time with Gal leaving sort of the design industry as we know it. [54:39] I don't know Gal personally, but we have had interactions recently where we did agree to build a viral branding agency together. And we put that out there and we got about as good of a reaction as you could possibly get from folks and companies wanting to work with us. And so it's hard for me to believe those opportunities just went poof overnight. [55:00] Okay. [55:01] I think that hit it. Like for me, Gal is in that upper echelon of creativity and talent. [55:07] And so I think that's why it went viral, is because it came from somebody who were like, yeah, if anybody is invincible, [55:14] against these models, it's Gal. [55:16] Did I just hear Brett say that him and Gal were going to start an agency together? It's news to me, yeah. [55:22] That would have been wild. [55:26] I had no idea that that was a thing that almost manifested itself. Okay. Very cool. [55:32] Um... [55:33] Yeah, so interesting stuff. [55:35] Gal looks... [55:37] happy doing this. And I think it's important because there's something that's hit me recently. [55:42] And I'll say this. [55:44] Thank you. [55:44] I've read multiple takes from people. Did you see this? [55:50] Kits, right? Are you familiar with kits? [55:54] Maybe?

[55:56] Here, I'll show you kids here. [55:59] Let's do this. [56:00] Right? [56:01] Oh, yeah, yeah. Man, this is the power of a Twitter avatar. I'm like, I have no idea who this is. I see the image and I'm like, oh yeah, him. I can name his feed. [56:09] I had I had people doing that at detached. They're like, hey, I'm so and so. I'm like, oh, nice to meet you. And they're like, no, I'm so. And they'd show me and I'm like, oh, yeah, dude, you know. Yeah. And I thought that was I thought that was funny. He tweets so much like this felt like it was just last week. And already I've got to like dig where this was. So what I'll say about kits, whether or not I can find the post he made was he made a video at one point. I want to say it was the beginning of last week. [56:39] and it was like 4:00 AM. And it was funny because I had just been up all night working on the dive radio little website, right? And he's like, I can't stop cooking. I've been working and working and it's like, I just constantly knew prompt and this, and we've heard this, like people are just feeling like they have to work. Hunter, he told me like, there's this weird thing now with token limits. [57:04] that you feel like you're in your window, and now it's a new type of FOMO, if you're not utilizing your limits, then you feel like you're gonna miss out, you need to be building with it, and it's creating this anxiety. And so I see kids talk about, I can't stop cooking. [57:21] And then the next day I see a post from someone else who says, I just ended up in the hospital because of this like anxiety. Oh, yeah, I did see that.

[57:30] Kitts posted the same day he retweets it. [57:33] He's in the hospital. He goes, "Me too." [57:36] And I'll tell you guys this, this past weekend, [57:40] I had a panic attack. [57:41] And I have not had a panic attack in a long time. A lot of things started piling up. And it was like I just felt like I had so much to do. [57:49] And I'm wondering, the more people I talk to, [57:54] Like where? [57:55] is this coming from my discord? I kind of went on this this rant over the weekend where I was like, listen, [58:01] You know, the mental health part of this is definitely being surfaced, but mental health is not an AI issue. [58:09] It might be being instigated a bit by it, but like I still try to compartmentalize those because I think it's important to do that. [58:16] But it is interesting that even just in the last week, I saw this bam, bam, bam trend, and then all of a sudden it hit me. [58:24] And it's been years since I had a panic attack. So that was really interesting, man. I don't know. How are you? [58:29] How are you feeling? [58:30] You know Pablo Stanley from Vercel? [58:33] I was hanging out with him yesterday. Was that yesterday? Yeah, we're doing an interview together. And... [58:39] We talked a lot of it on the podcast, but we got real before and after, too. Just talking about what it's like and... [58:47] It's. [58:48] The promise of it was like, well, AI is going to eliminate the busy work. [58:53] And it's like, yeah, I mean, it did for sure. But all I'm doing is just doing way more every single day.

[59:01] And the style of work, I think that's the part that really gets me where it's like when I was [59:08] just in a Figma canvas and life was simpler and peaceful and wonderful. And I'm obsessing over one problem at a time. And I'm going really deep on this thing for hours, maybe so focused. [59:21] purely creative, doing everything, feeling it, you know? [59:25] Now it's the opposite end of the spectrum where I'm never doing one thing at a time because I'm allergic to loading states. You talked about having like not having the your limits. You're not hitting your limits. You feel like you have the FOMO. For me, it's like if I'm looking at a loading state, I'm like, I'm not doing enough. I have to add another task. Like I'm only working efficiently if I have enough tasks where I never look at a loading state because I can always jump to something else. And so the level of context switching is. [59:50] is exhausting. [59:51] It's exhausting. And at the end of the day, I'm like, wow, I accomplished so much more than I could have possibly imagined two years ago. [1:00:00] And I'm tired. [1:00:02] Like, [1:00:02] Not being tired, like [1:00:04] in my bones, tired, emotionally tired, spiritually tired. You know, it's like, [1:00:11] I think I'm on almost like a tighter, almost mini burnout cycles. I'm like, it makes me manic in some ways. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think we talked about it nearly enough because I'm sure a lot of people are also feeling that. It's something I'm releasing. I've taken a break from YouTube videos for about a month. We have back to back conferences and then I just had a bunch of stuff with the team come up and I'm going to talk about it in this video and I'm going to touch on this anxiety. I'm going to touch on a lot of things that

[1:00:41] you know, a year of [1:00:43] I mean, I've been using AI and trying to do, it's one thing to just like try to will a business into existence. That by itself is enough to drive anybody off a cliff there. And then you add AI and all the things that come with that. It was funny. I saw, I can't remember who it was, was talking about the new Grok model is so fast that, [1:01:03] that their feedback, their criticism of it, is they don't get that [1:01:07] ability to multitask between threads because they ask a question they have an answer. [1:01:12] And they're like, no, no, no. I want to move to another session and bounce back and have a thing waiting for me. And they're like, it's too responsive. And I was like, oh, that's. [1:01:22] That's interesting. [1:01:23] Yeah. You know. [1:01:25] So, [1:01:26] Rid, your video seems a little blurred. Is that on purpose? [1:01:31] That's just how I look, man. [1:01:34] It's underwater. It's a branding exercise. We're figuring out the brand on the fly. [1:01:40] So, you know, I wanted to pizza boy Dan [1:01:45] I think I'm a fan of... I saw something he did, because it resonated, and this will be like the last thing we talk about, this sort of gal and... [1:01:53] and AI tooling, because I want to get into some of the stuff we've been working on. [1:01:56] Yeah. [1:01:57] But I thought this was a compelling thing that, [1:02:00] Dan kind of put together here and I asked him if he'd just show us [1:02:04] A quick thing. [1:02:05] Hey Tommy, in front of us right here we have two projects. The one on the right is still ongoing, the one on the left is just wrapped case studies on the website.

[1:02:14] Both of these projects [1:02:16] or both of these concepts in front of you were done by Fable 5. And both of them had the exact same context and information that I had when I started the Real Projects. [1:02:26] And I'm sorry, but... [1:02:28] they're not thinking outside the box. They're not coming up with these incredible ideas. They're being very bland, on the nose, and the quality is [1:02:37] Subpa. [1:02:38] Could you use it to riff on? [1:02:40] Absolutely. Of course you could. [1:02:42] could you use these to end up then creating something great of course you could but the main thing for me is both these projects in the real world [1:02:51] They finished so far away from where we started. [1:02:55] purely due to the fact that as the project went on, [1:02:59] we started to learn more about each other, more about the project, and it ultimately ended up evolving into something totally different. [1:03:07] to now especially the Brumby one [1:03:09] is so far away from any of these potential concepts. But now it's so defendable and ownable by the client [1:03:17] None of these would have sufficed, honestly. [1:03:21] That's where I am. [1:03:23] Hmm. [1:03:24] Ownable is a good word. That stands out to me. It's like if you're just pulling from an existing data set, you'll never really arrive at somewhere that is truly ownable, at least not without a good deal of... [1:03:35] you know, us, hopefully. [1:03:40] Did I lose your audio? [1:03:44] That's especially bad on the left, by the way.

[1:03:49] I feel like I've seen some better – I've seen Fable do better than that. But that's – I'm a little confused by it actually because I'm like is it intentionally trying to be – [1:03:59] Bad. [1:04:00] Is it a horse? [1:04:03] I get drastically different results if you just have Fable do something on its own versus... [1:04:12] using like Quiver API too. I look at that and I'm like, it's like, I'm, [1:04:18] There's no way. There's just no way that it was that bad. There's no way. Well, and so let's dive into this because we've been working on some fun stuff. And actually, we want the opinion of you guys. We're going to show you [1:04:31] So Dive Club, [1:04:32] Right. Rid, how long have you had... [1:04:35] How long is dieting? - Three years, man. [1:04:37] The brand's even older because it started off as a school, which people don't even remember. The brands, Fonz made the original brand. [1:04:43] And he... [1:04:44] We wrap that up [1:04:46] That might have been four years ago, actually. [1:04:49] Yeah. [1:04:50] Yeah, that's pretty cool, actually. Do you – you don't know the anniversary of Dive? [1:04:55] I do. It's somewhere in May. I have a reminder on my phone. I don't know what the date is, but then I'll get a reminder on that day. [1:05:00] And then I just like. Oh man, now I feel like I need to. [1:05:04] I'm bummed I didn't like... [1:05:06] I guess I could look it up. That's cool though. And it's really interesting and it's actually very cool. [1:05:11] To be clear for everyone, I'm hanging out with Rid. We're doing dive radio. That's kind of the extent of our collaboration on this, which is a lot of fun. But it's been really cool because you've invited me into giving feedback on this branding process, which is I love it. And I'm obviously staying up all night making fun things for it. But it's cool to see how you think and how you design and even creative direct.

[1:05:36] Obviously love working with Fonz on this. [1:05:38] Um... [1:05:39] But it is it's like when you when you think about a rebrand for something and then even about [1:05:45] you're extending it into now a live show and you know, what else could it be? [1:05:50] Um, [1:05:51] How do you decide... [1:05:54] we should refresh a logo mark or the composition of branding elements, or we should just outright like, [1:06:00] rethink it. [1:06:02] What leads that decision for you? [1:06:04] Thank you. [1:06:08] I think I just try to imagine different announcements. Like I translate things into tweets, really. [1:06:14] and think about [1:06:15] "How would I visually portray this thing "that I wanna communicate?" So for me, it was like, okay, we have the podcast, which is Dive Club. We have this Dive Radio, Love Radio, as a name, as a concept. [1:06:27] I'm also doing... [1:06:29] like Dive Talent, which I don't even have a real website up for. But I know I need something for that, too. [1:06:35] even just the way that I use the word Mark, it's, I, I, I, I can't get it to look good, to like combine, to like throw radio or throw talent there. And, um, [1:06:47] as soon as I feel like I'm fighting against the brand a little bit, that's when I'm like, okay, I probably need, [1:06:52] an outside perspective here, Fonz has quickly become the go-to for me. [1:06:57] Because it's like you have your core... [1:06:59] four spaces and [1:07:01] a more painful designer than working within a brand system that you feel like you're just fighting. Or you feel like you don't have a bunch of new strands to pull on where it's like, I remember Mike Smith talked about this concept to me one time where he's like, man, a good brand feels like it just unravels in every direction, you know?

[1:07:19] And [1:07:21] I wasn't feeling that four years later as all of these new use cases emerged, which to me is like the flag. We're like, okay, we need a little bit of a rethink here. I love... [1:07:33] The mark is [1:07:35] I love the actual icon. [1:07:38] But the word mark was feeling a little bit [1:07:41] tough to work with. [1:07:44] I love the D ribbon and we're gonna show that. But I will say this, where I have a lot of fun, [1:07:51] in this project is like, [1:07:54] completely [1:07:57] I'm just goofing off, right? And the thing I've been doing a lot lately, [1:08:02] We talk a lot about prompting and we're going to get, by the way, very cool to see everybody. [1:08:07] talking in chat here. [1:08:09] Probably in the next 15, 20 minutes, we're going to do some Q&As with chat. [1:08:15] because I'd really like to talk to you guys. And I'm sorry we don't have the call in today, but we will next week. [1:08:20] But I, for me... [1:08:22] How often do you use images... [1:08:25] to communicate ideas [1:08:27] to [1:08:28] AI. [1:08:30] Oh, it's the majority of my problems. [1:08:32] Yeah. [1:08:33] Yeah. [1:08:34] How often do you mood board around that? Because it's one thing to say, you know, I'm going to do some element selecting or take a screenshot. [1:08:40] of like the work you've done it's kind of this uh you know we're kind of converging and diverging and let's look at the actual work we're creating together [1:08:48] but like up front and front load with mood boarding,

[1:08:51] No, so I think this is why I was really enjoying the process. And honestly, like, I'll just give you kudos. I think [1:08:57] Moodboarding is a skill and I think you're exceptional at it. Like I was really impressed by what you were [1:09:03] coming up with and combining, I just thought it was so [1:09:07] impressive in a way that made me want to get better at it. And I think this process, I, [1:09:14] It was the first time that I've started exploring different ways of mood boarding. I wasn't even a Cosmos user until last... [1:09:20] two days. [1:09:21] Cosmos is amazing. What have I been doing? How have I been using that? It's unbelievable. Cosmos is so good. I send them an email once a month asking them to flip [1:09:31] the profile and collections tab. [1:09:35] regularly because if you load it up here, you land on your profile and I said, guys, I never look at this. Why is this the first thing I see? I just want to see my collection. And they're like, yeah, we'll take it into consideration. [1:09:52] So it's part Cosmos for me and part... [1:09:56] I hadn't been using GPT to generate full mood board images. [1:10:02] until this process. That was really helpful for me. Really, really. It's like, show me [1:10:08] 12 to 15 different images based off of this prompt. And it has a ton of context around what I'm trying to accomplish in terms of like a world-building thing. And you can really quickly see [1:10:17] "Oh, what is that world?" Sometimes I don't even have the language to understand what to iterate based off of it, so then I'll have it almost reverse engineer the world it created with some keywords, and I'm like, "Ah, no, no, no, that's the one that's wrong. "Let's tweak that one." And I feel like I was flexing that muscle in a real way over the last, I mean, literally two days for the first time,

[1:10:38] Really, really enjoy. So so so some game. And by the way, Cosmos, Arena, Pinterest, love Arena, love Arena for a number of reasons. I love how Arena started. I love the story of Arena. Pinterest is great. Pinterest is Pinterest is, I think, one of the best search engines for finding really wonky, weird things, but they don't have a dark mode. [1:11:00] And [1:11:01] they're becoming an enemy of mine because of it. [1:11:03] Because I'm late at night, late at night getting flash banged by Pinterest UI. [1:11:09] And I'm just like, guys, can we please like it's 2026. Give me an option. Um, [1:11:15] But Cosmos is the place I like to store this. And so, you know, I put together the dive radio, [1:11:20] It was like, okay, what is this dive radio thing? And I don't think necessarily we had landed on a place where we were going to do this yet. It was getting close. I think it was pretty warm. I can't recall exactly. [1:11:32] Or maybe we, I don't remember. But in one day I was like, you know what? I just want to make something fun. [1:11:37] I was kind of agonizing over a few things. This was days leading up to the panic attack. And I decided that I was just gonna build a weird thing. Image two from GPT. [1:11:48] Hands down the best ideating partner, better than mid journey, better than a lot of the image gen tools out there. For me, I love brainstorm, brainstorming visually with image, too. [1:12:00] And the way that I'll do this, and I've mentioned this before, I'll take breaks from AI. [1:12:05] once a week. [1:12:06] I'm pretty good about it. I missed the last week. But what I do with why I like mood boarding is like when you really think about that, that yucky word that we never like to say out loud, taste, taste.

[1:12:18] The thing that mood boarding really does is like you open up something. [1:12:22] And you're going out and you're selecting these things that – [1:12:26] Um... [1:12:28] means something to a vision that you have that you can't yet articulate. [1:12:32] And some people might look at this mood board and they might say, you know, like you called it underwater glow, but like some of these things don't necessarily belong in here. This might not be a great example because most of these do, except for the Blackwater photography. [1:12:44] And but to me, they do. But to me, they're connected. And I think like your ability to see the connection between things that maybe isn't obvious to others. That's a really good thing to exercise a lot. And so what I like to do, and I'll even use AI to help me think about weird and off the wall combinations. And other times I'll just go find them myself. [1:13:08] But it's like I want to for the dive radio was like, what's what's interesting, you know, like like signals and old retro stuff retro. This is becoming kind of a tired aesthetic, but I still I still haven't. [1:13:20] I've got some retro left in me. And so I was like, okay, what does it look like on this radio concept? What are some of the stuff I love? This is very Lee Black, very Dieter Ramm, stuff like that. [1:13:30] But what could I combine this stuff with? And we'll get into the actual Dive brand. I think this one I called Submechanical Sticker Bomb. It was funny. I said to you, I said, what if Dive Club... [1:13:42] was a mix of thalassophobia and sub-mechanophobia. And you said, you made those words up. Yeah, I didn't believe you. And I was like, how do we connect, combine this idea of sticker bombs on coolers with this idea of rusty ship holes? Is there something in that? It sounds ridiculous even just hearing you say it out loud. It does. It does. And actually, I don't really love this idea.

[1:14:12] And one of the things that I'll say to you is, certainly there are going to be mood boards that you fall in love with when you go out and find these things. You're like, I love that. I just want to continue to add things to that. [1:14:24] But I would actually push you to try to create other mood boards that you might not really believe in. But with the whole purpose of that mood board is to be distinctly different with a very different direction because it does. It exercises a pretty strong muscle in thinking outside of the box. [1:14:44] And you might accidentally stumble upon some stuff. Like, you know, I was like, what does wet sticker paper look like? You know, I don't know. [1:14:50] And so we found some other things in here. And I don't know that this is a very good mood board, [1:14:55] But it was a good exercise to kind of put a lot of that together. And then I'll feed this into... [1:15:01] ChatGPT image two and I'll say, hey, I've got some ideas using our signal desk mood board here. And then I'll kind of like let it just run amok. [1:15:11] and come up with these very clearly AI smelling things [1:15:16] versions of the next installment of Moods. [1:15:20] But also I was like, you know, but there are things in here that one, I can be like, yep, that's what I don't want. [1:15:27] or two, [1:15:28] Actually, there's like a thing in that that I can borrow inspiration from. I think I think we both saw this and we're like, oh, that's compelling. [1:15:36] Like the light rays from water above, and I think we've adopted that into some of the language here.

[1:15:42] about the color scheming and some of this. But a lot of this was like, yeah, that's stuff we don't want. [1:15:47] But then as it started to go, I started to see like, wait a second, what is like radio? [1:15:52] What do these old radios look like? That's interesting. I think this was the first one it made. [1:15:58] And this smells like AI. [1:16:00] Right. Like this, just AI has this tendency to add all kinds of over polish and over texturing and knobs and things like it just over explains every detail. [1:16:11] But in doing so, it gave me some ideas. I'm like, wait a second. This idea of like this meter and the little ticker for the meter and some. Show the other tab. Show the other tab. [1:16:22] Oh, I'm certainly not doing that, am I? Darn it. No. [1:16:26] Sorry, you got to catch me because I'm over here talking about these. [1:16:29] I'm talking about this stuff. [1:16:31] These moves that I was generating. [1:16:34] With, yeah. That makes way more sense. Day one. We'll get it. We'll figure it out. And so, you know, I'm creating all these variations here. And sorry. So this was what I was referring to. Ridden, I saw this. [1:16:48] And I think I shared this with you and I thought we thought that was compelling. And this has made it into the brand language that we're working with. [1:16:54] And then outside of that, I saw this image. [1:16:58] Right. This this and this is what I meant when I was saying that AI likes to over polish and really get into. [1:17:04] over-explaining every detail, but there were some things that we could borrow and take away from here. [1:17:10] And so I said, okay, cool. [1:17:12] Those things that I want to borrow and take away, let's now try to describe those on a more minimal canvas. Like I want some of the really cool ideas there.

[1:17:22] But I want to see what that looks like a bit more. Let's tone it down a bit, right? So we were playing with these different like – [1:17:28] compositions and frames. And then, then it was like, wait a second, like now light it up. And so one of my favorite things about image too is you can have it recreate. I think it does one of the best jobs of taking an image and, [1:17:42] And you would say, hey, [1:17:44] Take this radio. [1:17:45] and now make the meter glow. [1:17:48] And it... [1:17:49] Everything is damn near pixel by pixel, but it glows. And I'm like, that's kind of interesting because I can now [1:17:56] do a mouse hover effect if I wanted to, or I could do some interesting stuff here, I could cut this out. And so suddenly, what's really helpful to me [1:18:05] is considering different states of images that can get generated, and then considering things that I can cut out. [1:18:12] because I came up in the one div days, where people were making CSS divs, pokeballs and Chinese food takeout boxes in one div container using pseudo classes. And so when I see images that are stripped down to their bare shapes and geometry, [1:18:31] my brain goes, I bet I could create that in CSS. [1:18:34] Now some of this you don't need to anymore because you can get to some performing SVGs and different images today. [1:18:39] But it is an interesting exercise because what happens is we get over to, as we saw with our radio here. [1:18:48] And suddenly, not only is this interactive, and I have a whole lot of time adding. And one we intend to win. Can you hear the audio on this? Yeah, I can. I love it so much.

[1:18:59] And it is for these reasons. Yeah. People are like, why did you make rid the volume? Lee, this was a huge inspiration from Lee Black, who likes to make a lot of digital interfaces among the most. And so, you know, I saw this and I said, at first, we just built the rectangle for this. And I was like, no, there's got to be more. This needs to be more interactive. I wanted to make this clickable. I didn't have time. [1:19:21] But then it was like, let's let's add all kinds of things and then I can make different states. It's like, let's break the glass. And so there's a little [1:19:27] crack here and then we click it again, a crack gets deeper and then oh man, now we're really messing it up and now it's done for. And now we can add some things that make sense in the digital sphere. [1:19:38] That's a lot of fun to me, you know? And so when people say- How'd you do the sound? How'd you do the sound for all this? I think that's like my favorite part. Like there's so many different little sound effects. Are you just, is Claude just running with it? Like, [1:19:51] Talk to me about that part. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and turn the sound off so we can talk about it. [1:19:58] So, um... [1:20:00] I said I want something that resembles like big moments in radio or in audio. And it's tricky because I didn't want to use anything that was copyright. There's a number of things I'd love to pull in that I didn't. So it was like, okay, what is public domain? Well, a mother of all demos is one that's always stuck out. It's one that we actually use on the UX Tools website. I love these callbacks to old moments inside of interface design. But it was like, and then like jobs talking.

[1:20:30] thought of. And then it was like, but how about also these? It would pull moments from history. It was pulling, you know, there's like, you know, just Morse code, world to world. Like that's, I love that. But then you've got all these other, like Grace Hopper. It suggested this. That's interesting. That's a pretty funny speech. And I think they recently declassified it. Um, [1:20:52] So yeah, part of that me, part of that AI, [1:20:56] The quote that I like to use lately, people are like, you used AI to make this. And I said, AI... [1:21:01] made this with me, you know, like we really put the work in together to do this. [1:21:05] What about the sound like breaking the glass though? Like the way that it kind of, I can't remember what the word for that is, where you're like turning the knob to mess with the-. Haptic sort of, kind of, it feels haptic, so it feels very tactile in a way. Yeah. [1:21:20] Some of those sound effects were definitely recommended by Fable. [1:21:25] The glass, I would have gone in that direction and did it without me even asking it. I said, here are five images. [1:21:31] That was, and I'll say this, if you tell Fable, [1:21:36] And I don't know if this is true with 5.6 yet, but you tell Fable, [1:21:39] Like, hey, we're going to do some audio stuff. [1:21:41] It puts on its little like sound designer hat and it'll start going. That's crazy. And it's like, OK, that's kind of fun. [1:21:47] I feel like the pendulum's about to swing way too far with audio, where everybody's going to realize how easy it is to add audio to digital products, and where everything's going to be talking and yelling and playing music to us, and then the pendulum will swing back to an interesting middle ground. It feels like we're in the very first inning of...

[1:22:03] sound design with AI in digital experiences. [1:22:06] Yeah. [1:22:07] And then you always love to throw some stuff. I'm a big, big cypher and ARG fan, and one day it's my dream. [1:22:16] to hold a proper ARG sort of cipher puzzle for this community. We'll, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. But yeah, [1:22:23] Yeah, man. Some good stuff. Some fun times. [1:22:26] You know, we'll all have to walk the group through how I made the intro video, which will continue to grow and get better and [1:22:33] That's the first time I've ever used AI video tools. [1:22:36] And it is. It's so good. I'm just gonna give a more context for people that are watching because [1:22:42] Tommy just goes rogue, man. He just goes rogue. You know, like he'll be like, you'll get a text and it'll just say, [1:22:49] Give me two hours. [1:22:52] What the hell is he about to go do? And then he comes back and it's like this whole video. I'll tell you the story from last night. [1:22:59] All of this is happening in the last 24 hours. [1:23:02] And [1:23:03] I'm reading a book [1:23:05] to my to my two and a half year old before bed and for the first time in like six months we reached for the book that is like underwater it's it's it's ocean she wanted to read it i hate this book i think it's a terrible book i never read it first time in six months we read it last night in the middle of mood boarding [1:23:20] all of this ocean stuff. And, [1:23:23] I'm looking at it and it just, it dawns on me. I'm like, Oh, [1:23:27] you know, the real version of this stream, once we really lean in and figure all the things out, we'll be like, [1:23:31] What if it starts above water and then we progressively go deeper and deeper and deeper and then have community call-ins and it's like the phone on the ocean floor and we're working from the surface to the floor throughout the, I love that idea, you know, the concept. So I just, I just voice texted it really quick to Tommy.

[1:23:47] And I just go do my thing. And I'm sitting in the TJ Maxx parking lot, like we were talking about earlier. And then I get a video. [1:23:53] two hours later and he just made it. He just freaking made it like that intro video. [1:24:00] Tommy made last night after I sent him a text reading my kid a book. [1:24:06] It's cool, man. It's pretty cool. It's impressive stuff that you're able to just make it happen. You're just really doing this. And it's fun. It's fun. It's just really fun these days. Like, I think there was a time in the past where if you were collaborating with people, you wanted like an engineer, a designer, you wanted these kind of separate but complementary skill sets. [1:24:24] I'm having a blast. [1:24:26] the most lately working with other designers. [1:24:29] Like people who we can just have, 'cause you sent me that picture of the book. [1:24:34] And and I think I actually the first thing I said to you, I said, what if we go and host community ocean cleanups and. I didn't even see that next. I can tell you, well, I that's funny that you say you didn't see it because you didn't respond to it. And I said, OK, that must have been like way off. I was doing story time. I was doing story time. I was literally just like take this idea and run with it. And then I didn't look at any of your responses. [1:25:04] who see things and collect things that they see and... [1:25:09] It's the most fun of this whole thing. I want you to share with some of the time left, and then we'll do some Q&A this Fonz work.

[1:25:18] Okay, this is going to be-- [1:25:19] It's going to be hectic. [1:25:21] So much goes down waiting in the TJ Maxx parking lot. [1:25:27] If you only knew how much time I've spent in the TJ Maxx parking lot in the last year, [1:25:33] Oh my god. Okay, so first off we just have to get the scale of this. We're talking days, right? Like this is literally in like three days and [1:25:40] And this is one since Monday, since Monday, since we had a kickoff call with Fonz on Monday. [1:25:46] - Yeah, Monday afternoon. [1:25:47] And we said, [1:25:49] And we said, Fonz, we need to have some things live by Thursday. [1:25:54] I mean, so I just wanted to start there. So I'll actually, Tommy alluded to this earlier, like we had the brief, this was your idea. He's trying to give me credit because he's too nice, but he's like, you know, you should break it up. [1:26:06] and [1:26:07] And so this is actually what I fed – [1:26:08] Fonz originally and I sent him a Loom video just walking through and doing like dislikes. And you know, what, like this is exactly like I'm generating this with GPT. [1:26:19] And this was one of the outputs. I'm like, whoa, you know, Miami Vice. Okay, cool. I now know that I do not want this light color because it feels too Miami Vice, you know, and we're just going through. [1:26:31] It's radio. [1:26:32] And I was like, oh, this is, [1:26:35] This, I think this is, yeah, I found this from your thing. Like, oh, that's so interesting. You know, like the light that is emitted from these old school radios and then the impact that it could have like on caustic effects of water and whatever. We're just we're just throwing insane stuff with funds.

[1:26:49] And so Fonz kicks it off. [1:26:52] He shows up on Monday with this, you know, already. I was like, dang, I can't believe. Hours. Just a handful of hours. Yeah, literal hours. And he's playing with it right away. I'm like, I love this. I love this. You know, walking us through different directions and whatever. And so then he starts creating. And this is so after the first day. [1:27:12] I think we're like down here. It's really hard to navigate. But, you know, he's making just – [1:27:17] wide spectrum of all kinds of different like patterns and effects and different ways to lay things out. And we're working through some of the course greens and color palettes and [1:27:30] I think this was the moment where we're like, okay – [1:27:33] Everything that he is making... Where are those... [1:27:37] I wanted to find... [1:27:38] Oh, there's just so many. I don't even know where to pick. There's so many different ones. But like everything he's making is so good. It's so good. You know, but we kind of had this moment of like, [1:27:50] What would it look like to turn the weird dial up to 10 and then work backward? It's like that idea from Steve from Tailwind. [1:27:59] And he had the idea of like, if you want to add more white space, don't just incrementally add white space, add white space. [1:28:05] too much white space, get to the point where you know that it's too much and then reduce from there. And you'll end up in a more interesting spot than if you incrementally add. I think about that a lot. I was kind of thinking about it when talking with Fonz. I'm like, what would it look like to basically do the equivalent of that for like going all in on how weird this can be? And, and man, I got to tip my cap to the guy. He started getting

[1:28:26] Started getting real weird, man. [1:28:30] We... [1:28:31] New set in the works. [1:28:33] Oh my gosh, man. This is the thing I was tweeting about earlier. Just a hilarious brand prompt. I mean, just... [1:28:43] What is this, you know? [1:28:45] I don't know. [1:28:47] It makes me happy. And so he's you just he's just exploring like crazy. And again, props to Fonz every it felt like every like eight hours he's looping us in. And we're we're just, you know, weighing in like his his feedback loops were so tight in a way that I really appreciate it. And eventually we got to this place. Now, I'm going to go navigate this well. Oh, man, look at all these patterns, too. [1:29:10] I don't even know if we know how to use these yet. [1:29:12] But that's, it's like, it's beautiful, right? So it's so beautiful. Yeah. [1:29:17] So, [1:29:19] We then, I don't know what this checkpoint is, at some point there's a checkpoint where you realize like, all right, things kind of look a little bit rusty and weird, so how can we bring in more color and, [1:29:29] just the amount even just framing the videos you know like right now we don't have frames this is very much mbp of this of this stream like what is the right way to [1:29:37] It's like package. I haven't seen I haven't seen all of this actually because I was quite busy with the. Yeah. And so I haven't actually had a chance to like look through all this. This is sick. [1:29:48] It's amazing, man. I was just going... [1:29:51] through it like it's so good [1:29:54] There's so much in here. [1:29:56] So then he kind of-- - I love that we brought down the chunk, sorry, yeah. I'll refrain from feedback.

[1:30:01] No, I mean, here, let's let's let's. So he basically at one point, we actually have some things from the audience we want to get some feedback on, too, right? [1:30:09] - Yeah, we do, I do. I actually want to show that. I'll give a little bit of context real quick. Like this is another, this was a bigger checkpoint from Fonz where it's like, we threw the craziest wrench ever at him. And we're just like, hey, how weird can you make this? And then he's like, okay, [1:30:22] Let's put down the three directions kind of thing. [1:30:25] And we got into the Sonar world. [1:30:29] And then I think like closer to where we are now, except kind of, [1:30:33] A little dirtier, maybe. And then this... [1:30:37] I don't know what this world is, but I do like it a lot. Uh, [1:30:40] So, [1:30:41] He's riffing, he's going crazy. [1:30:43] I did want to-- I don't know. Do you know how to do the polls in here? We'll just have people just reply. So I have some side-by-sides. [1:30:50] Yeah, I have some side-by-sides here. [1:30:53] These are a few of the design decisions that are still kind of open right now. [1:30:57] And the first one is we want to lean into this idea of really branded segments. [1:31:03] and having the pace of the show be carried by very different feeling segments. And thinking about, okay, what is the right way to build a system that is extensible and allows us to [1:31:18] Thank you. [1:31:20] Allows us to go in a lot of different directions. [1:31:23] It'll be back with us in a moment. But I do want to show you something that I found. Oh, there we go. [1:31:29] It just says tab crashed.

[1:31:31] That's how you know the Thema file is insane, is when Restream is just like, nah. [1:31:36] We're done. We're done doing that. [1:31:39] So, [1:31:41] This is the first thing that we're thinking about. It's like, how do we-- [1:31:45] Brand these segments. [1:31:47] One of them might be a rant, one of them might be news desk, one of them might be like community showcases. [1:31:53] Curious. [1:31:55] Left or right, we have stickers on the left. [1:31:58] And then on the right is more of this paper cutout. [1:32:02] idea. [1:32:03] Can you zoom in? Can you zoom in on each one? Like, let's get some closer fidelity for sure. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. [1:32:09] Sure. That's me, man. I'm the folk with Benio. What the heck? It sucks. [1:32:14] So this is our sticker concept. I love this little Claude guy here. [1:32:19] It's good stuff, right? It's energetic. [1:32:23] 72 hours, Fonz, by the way. Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. I can't. This is a big Fonz promo. He's incredible. And then this guy over here. [1:32:34] Yeah, this is my favorite. [1:32:38] We got one right. [1:32:41] Oh, we got a left. [1:32:43] That's not helpful. It's not helpful. It's supposed to be our free UX research session. Help us consider... [1:32:49] you know, feel free to left right this or a B it however you want to do it and feel free to put in justification because. [1:32:56] I am currently... [1:32:57] My argument is I like the... [1:33:01] I like that the dive club is getting a little bit grittier.

[1:33:06] more realism to it, I think. [1:33:09] I think that's how I might describe it. And I think the right side plays well into that while still looking cool. [1:33:15] You know? [1:33:17] There's an energy about the left that I like for sure. [1:33:21] I do kind of lean the right. [1:33:23] And what's interesting is we saw the left first, and I loved the left. I was like, this is really cool. [1:33:27] Really cool. But then I saw the right in that. [1:33:31] Yeah, yeah. And I think that the two metaphors that you brought up that I thought were interesting connections, one was like, one's like sticky notes, you know, can this be our own spin on more retro sticky notes? And then the second one was... [1:33:46] in a news desk you know you're just like tearing a piece of paper real quickly and writing a note [1:33:50] from a logistics standpoint, it kind of felt like that. [1:33:54] And I think they'll just play really well on the textures and the patterns, like even if we don't go ship whole, which... [1:33:59] I don't think that's the direction we're necessarily going, but like, I just feel like it could, it could do a lot of interesting stuff there. I think those are cool, but I'm. [1:34:06] Paper underwater. Yeah, that's my thought. Yeah, that's cool. I meant to call it out while you were talking. I didn't want to interrupt you. Someone said the pod in a fishbowl and it made me go, oh, I need to. There's a lot I want to do with that idea. [1:34:20] There are you for that. It goes back to what I was talking about with Mike Smith earlier. It feels like right now the brand is unraveling. [1:34:28] where you could go in so many different directions, and there's so much down every single path. Some of those paths are probably way too weird. [1:34:34] But... [1:34:35] Man, it's fun.

[1:34:37] enjoyable moment in time as a designer to be inheriting a world that feels like you can just run in any direction with. [1:34:46] - Yeah, and I want to, [1:34:49] Can I hijack? Are you showing some stuff? [1:34:51] I was going to show a few more voting, but if it's topical. Go more. Go more. Okay, so here's another one that we're thinking about. [1:34:58] It's like, [1:35:00] Like the idea of our iconography and even showing different like company logos as part of the world. Oh, dude. And you're using the scene textures. [1:35:10] Right? So it's like, is it... [1:35:12] Does it feel like the old, you know, [1:35:15] piece of metal and it's been sitting on the bottom of the ocean floor for a long time? Or does it feel more like the coral? [1:35:23] Yeah. [1:35:25] I don't think these are... We'll find out what that legality is pretty soon, I'm sure. [1:35:31] Yeah. [1:35:31] You haven't even seen this kind of stuff, I don't think. This is super new. He just put this in a few hours. I thought you guys were talking about it, but I was in the middle of the video stuff, and this is – [1:35:41] because that was the thing. It's freaking cool, right? It's so good. The mood boards we put together were like these, the black water photography and the neon kind of, you know, how flora fauna kind of does like the botanical neon in black. And I think sometimes we'll have like a jellyfish or so, but, but I love that. But what's more interesting that I haven't seen people do a lot of is like, there are so many patterns and textures inside of a starfish or these different things. Yeah. But I, but I, I don't know how to connect that to a digital,

[1:36:10] in a digital way. And this is freaking brilliant. [1:36:14] It's so good, man. So the story, I won't even try to find it because I won't be able to find it in the mess of the exploration tab. But [1:36:21] Fonz just shared... [1:36:23] the Claude logo, but it looked too much. It looked too real. It looked like a piece of coral. So I was like, ah, it just looks like an aquarium. [1:36:30] But now, once I saw it a few different ways, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so incredibly genius. [1:36:36] to use choral as iconography. [1:36:40] I love it. I'm completely obsessed with the one on the right, personally. I think it brings the energy. [1:36:47] I also looked at a picture of a starfish for like 12 minutes last night though. Because I think if you zoom in, like, [1:36:54] Dude. [1:36:55] That's amazing, right? [1:36:57] That's amazing. It's so pretty. [1:37:00] So pretty. [1:37:01] Nature's amazing. So, okay, that's one. Here's another one. This is more of like a generic, like cover photo, more composition style. Um, which composition speaks to people? [1:37:12] You have like the more subdued, this, a big question of mine is like, do we bring in [1:37:19] physical objects, [1:37:22] in the water. I like that juxtaposition of something like a radio underwater. Is it too on the nose? [1:37:29] I don't know, man. [1:37:30] I don't know. We haven't even talked about this for context for everybody. This is all so new that I haven't even digested this with [1:37:37] Tommy yet, so you are really being brought into a lot of this I opened the file because we needed a thumbnail for the YouTube As this was going live and we did that in two minutes. I opened the file. I grabbed the radio in with the radio because I felt like I

[1:37:51] that was ready. [1:37:53] And I just uploaded that. So that is now the thumbnail for today's episode, unless you change. [1:38:01] It's good. That's the first I've seen of this. [1:38:04] Yeah, I mean, I just saw this a few hours ago. [1:38:07] I, I, [1:38:09] I love the water theme, dude. And so, you know, like the metaphor, going back to the metaphor, so that something, the early conversation we had, [1:38:18] you know, and I love metaphors. It's why I think mood boards are the best for a lot of this type of thing was, you know, dive, you've, you've gone into, you know, [1:38:27] the depth of a topic, you know, like deep dive, we're learning, we're going deeper and deeper. It's water. It's the emoji of the scuba diver. And at first, I think I said, [1:38:37] you know, maybe that's maybe we've maybe you've kind of done that. And maybe it's time. And even I think Fawn says, you know, maybe don't be too on the nose on this. And then I said, but there's other ways to explore that metaphor metaphor, like spelunking or space going deep. Like there's all these different ways that could say the same thing. And maybe you just bring this catalog out. [1:38:57] And then as I started mood boarding around this, I was like, oh, no, dude, I think. [1:39:02] I think like you go deep into this and I think you came to the same conclusion at the same time. [1:39:07] And went back to Fonz and were like, hey, Fonz, I know we said we didn't want to be on the nose. [1:39:11] But actually we want to like smack the bottom of the ocean.

[1:39:17] It literally doesn't get more on the nose. [1:39:20] It feels good. It's so fun though. [1:39:23] But the metaphor that I like though is like, think about the time now we were talking about anxiety and we're talking about like not sure where to go. And I go back to that quote. [1:39:32] the guts to be curious. [1:39:34] It is a scary time to be curious. We're wide open showing [1:39:39] with no shame. [1:39:41] full AI creations in some of the work, but there's a lot of human stuff in this and we don't care. But there are people who would look at what we're talking about and we would get absolutely scrutinized. [1:39:53] for this. - Yeah. - And I think what we want is to inspire people [1:39:59] to ignore that and to have the guts to keep going deeper. Even if deeper is scary and it's full of, [1:40:09] you don't know, it's full of Blackwater photography creatures. But then suddenly, [1:40:14] Those creatures are really damn beautiful. [1:40:17] And so I love the beautiful coral in the sand down here. I love that kind of... [1:40:22] area, but I like [1:40:25] nodding to the eerie. [1:40:28] to the [1:40:29] It just goes deep and dark and deep and dark, and then... [1:40:32] there's just one beautiful creature suddenly, you know, like things like that. And that's why I like your intro music for what it's worth. [1:40:39] Like, I think you kind of that was not an obvious move. [1:40:42] to go kind of eerie with it. But it is like there's something there, right? Like it goes back to what we're talking about earlier. I mean, gosh, you mentioned a panic attack.

[1:40:49] 40 minutes ago, you know, it's like there is an eeriness that I think embraces the fact that we all feel a little bit uncomfortable right now. And [1:41:00] It's not all, it's not just like this, [1:41:02] Finding Nemo Oasis. [1:41:06] Yeah. [1:41:08] I think I have one more. Do I have one more? [1:41:10] Let's see it. [1:41:12] Oh, no, it's basically that. I should have just been showing this while we were talking about it. I think it's just like, it's such a small detail, but I think it's almost everything. What is the ocean floor? What are we submerging down into? [1:41:22] too. [1:41:23] You know, I think. [1:41:26] We've spent a long time [1:41:28] going back and forth on what this is. [1:41:32] And [1:41:34] I don't know. [1:41:35] I don't know. [1:41:36] I like, yeah. [1:41:38] Yeah, there's a lot here. One of the first versions, I don't think you showed this. Am I live here? [1:41:43] - Yeah, you are. - I don't think you showed this one which was [1:41:46] Uh... [1:41:48] We had kind of this grimy deep sea. We had old devices that had the algae and they just they look like shipwreck like they'd been living down there for years. [1:41:58] And you had said it's like if you rub your thumb on it, you want to wash your hands. [1:42:03] Yeah, it wasn't quite this. This was a little bit more extreme. But yeah, it felt... [1:42:08] It felt like I didn't want my feet to touch the bottom. I felt myself curling my toes. [1:42:13] It's a little bit this. There was even more-- I think there was more extreme versions of this. [1:42:18] Like, you know, this is like,

[1:42:21] If you get your toes on it, you'd be like, oh, god. It touched me. I didn't like that. What was that? What was that? But it's hard-- you brought up the point, too. It's really hard to go full-- [1:42:35] Retro. [1:42:37] without leaning into the fact that this is [1:42:39] old [1:42:41] And... [1:42:43] Then it's like if it's old, therefore it kind of has to look like this. It has to look like it's been at the bottom of the ocean. I don't know. So I agree. I think this is way too grimy. [1:42:51] Hey, Tommy, here's a question for you in the chat. [1:42:56] What is the purpose... [1:42:57] that these images surf again. [1:43:00] Which images specifically? [1:43:03] like the one we're looking at who i don't know man i don't know i think i let me just let me just answer the question actually i'm gonna answer the question you [1:43:12] by tossing back to an interview that I just released with Jason Nguyen, who was talking about HiveMind. [1:43:17] Dude made thousands of images about what the feel, what the world, what is the world that I'm building. And he built that entire thing before having a single use case or a mark or anything. [1:43:30] I kind of feel like we're doing that a little bit. It's like we kind of have to understand like what, [1:43:35] What is the world that we want to theoretically live on [1:43:38] We're living weekly indefinitely. [1:43:41] Who knows? I don't think this is. And here's my take. And it's a it's it's on the back of that. Hmm. [1:43:48] Mixed media is the coolest thing.

[1:43:51] Like hands down the people like I grew up following people following, but like really loving when I would see somebody mix different types of media, digital, like they were doing flash or they were bringing in paper. It's why like Burnaby on our team, he does like paper stop motion. And we try to bring that in. I think mixed media is the coolest. It is not cheap to make. It is hard. It requires skill sets. And today, [1:44:19] It is it is never been easier to combine all of these different. I I made the dive radio website in eight hours, six hours while playing friend slop games with my kids. [1:44:32] I was here over here talking super whisperer. [1:44:35] I'm not kidding. I made the intro, which it regrettably, the timer kind of hid some of the details. I'll post it on Twitter after this. I made it last night. [1:44:47] One day. [1:44:48] These are things that I never would have been able to do in the past, but I have the vision for it. I have so many stories that I want to bring to life. Why can't interfaces have some hints of a story, a LaCroix of Lime? Why can't we bring that into this? [1:45:03] That's why, because we have all the dashboards and the we have the the floor of good UI patterns and visual branding. And we have the Tinders that could be the dock that could be that could fit any other app. [1:45:19] If we can, why can't we bring some sort of joy and personality into

[1:45:25] and intrigue to the work we have now. Because we can, one person can do this. So it's like, let's at least explore it. And the last thing I'll say too, is I learned this from Soren Iverson when I went and hung out with him. I love this idea that he uses with absurdity. [1:45:42] Start by creating something you know is going to be just absolutely absurd. [1:45:47] I brought Cthulhu's eyeball into the intro for the video this morning. What are we doing? [1:45:53] Like I told it, I said, I want people to look at this and go, what the heck did I just watch? Yeah, you did. You did. Is that going to be the intro that sticks around? We're certainly going to change things and, you know, we'll see how it goes. [1:46:06] But sometimes when you create something super absurd, and then you invert it, you find the idea worth digging into. [1:46:14] And that's something that I'm having a lot of fun with. [1:46:19] I still haven't even seen all these. I haven't even gotten to this part of the inspiration before. This is kind of cool where it feels like you're peeping out. [1:46:27] I haven't even seen this yet. [1:46:29] Even the way he puts some of this together challenges me. Like there's, there's certain masking and four layered objects that, [1:46:37] that I really want to try and tackle. It's not easy. Yeah. [1:46:41] for a number of reasons in the videos that we're doing, but this is incredible. [1:46:45] Dude, I think this is sick, man. I'm so happy with it. This is cool. I've never seen anything like this before. I love that. [1:46:51] Are you kidding me? [1:46:52] This is the first time I'm seeing this. I feel like I've been...

[1:46:56] wandering around this file and I'm still finding stuff. [1:46:59] I say we rock with... [1:47:01] Yeah, this is so good. Like, I have so many ideas. And it is the goal to show you all how we're working. But we also want to show you how you're working. [1:47:14] We wanna be the place where it's like we can talk, we could talk a little drama, but we can also in priority, [1:47:21] Just show how people are doing interesting stuff today. I want more of that. I love seeing how everybody works. It's really cool. [1:47:28] Um... [1:47:29] We've gone well over time that we intended [1:47:33] But I did want to take some questions. You got some time, Red? [1:47:36] Yeah, let's do it. [1:47:38] If you guys got some questions for us, let's pop it in chat. Moving forward, we will have a call-in line. I've already got the phone number, in fact. What is it? We were like 80% there. It's cool. We tested it out. You call it, and it's like... [1:47:51] It's like, [1:47:52] Thanks for calling Dive Radio Show. It's cool. It's cool. It's going to be fun. [1:47:57] So we'll get there, but I want to see. And if it's specifically for RID or specifically for myself, feel free to call that out or for both. [1:48:04] The boards we were looking at is the work in progress brand [1:48:09] extension, refresh of the Dive brand and the things we're working on. [1:48:13] Thank you. [1:48:14] we can spotlight these comments too. [1:48:16] So let's see this. [1:48:20] There was one in here about... [1:48:24] design system stuff and using like

[1:48:28] when to own that in Figma or paper versus owning that in code. [1:48:36] And, [1:48:36] I want to talk about that for a second because every once in a while I download the Reddit [1:48:42] design the Reddit app and I go on to UX design and I just kind of like you every once in a while you download it like do you? Yeah, I just download it for like three days and uninstall it because I spend time on it. I'm always downloading and I'm installing So I don't have any social apps installed on my phone. I don't even have Twitter installed on my phone I force myself to use the mobile site. I force myself to use the mobile site. I [1:49:00] That's why we're having panic attacks and you're chilling reading C book. Chilling is a strong word. [1:49:08] But I will say, I think the thing that I'm really leaning into and discovering is you can just build any type of design system. [1:49:17] overview experience that you want for yourself. Any type of, like it used to be like, are you using storybook or no? And then you have storybooks UI and storybooks, prescriptive way of inspecting stuff. You can literally build anything. [1:49:27] any way that you want to group slice view components colors shadows you can build it and view it a hundred different ways [1:49:36] with Claude really, really quickly, build your own editing tools so you can tweak stuff. [1:49:42] The idea that-- because I think it's almost turning into a rant. I saw somebody in a comment on the UX design subreddit. And they're like, but it's so much easier to manage the design system in Figma. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? [1:49:55] It's so unbelievably easy to do it in code. You can do it in any way that works for you. Whatever is the best possible way for you to do it in code, you can do it. Sorry, that was not a rant. And who's looking at the design system in Figma, by the way?

[1:50:09] Yeah. [1:50:10] Like the drift that I have so many thoughts about that, too. But, um... [1:50:16] Samaraj, what's up, dude? [1:50:17] There's one on Vector. [1:50:20] generation models. [1:50:21] Andy, I guess I can spot, how does this work? [1:50:25] Does that show it up? Nice. There you go. Yeah. Look at me. I'm learning, man. I'm learning how to do this. Hey. [1:50:31] I wonder if you have an opinion here, Tommy. I've been talking a lot. Opinion on vector illustration in the AI era. [1:50:38] "How do image generation models affect [1:50:41] the need for vector at all? Do you have any workflows for going from generated art [1:50:46] It's a vector. [1:50:47] turn this into a vector image. [1:50:51] And then I see, and honestly, I've tried to do this quite a bit. Recently, I was trying to turn, I think for Detach, we had some, I wanted to try to vectorize a few. [1:51:01] print things that we had done. [1:51:05] and I was not having a whole lot of luck. It's a good question actually, because I would like to know an answer around this too. [1:51:10] It's an area I find myself starting to mess with a little bit more. [1:51:13] Yeah. [1:51:15] Vectorizing, I have not, I've had success in simple, [1:51:19] like simple compositions or images, then it's pretty good. It's pretty good. [1:51:23] trying quiver AI, someone says. [1:51:26] Yeah, Quiver is... [1:51:29] I mean, gosh, it's like one of those tools that I go out of my way to recommend all the time. It's [1:51:34] If you're not, [1:51:35] using Quiver at least to experiment a little bit, I think you are kind of missing out because it's pretty powerful to be able to just-- I've never touched Quiver.

[1:51:43] Dude, it's crazy, man. Like, all the time, I'll be, like... [1:51:47] I need an icon for this. [1:51:51] Yeah. [1:51:52] And I've like all the iconography, like match. I want to match the vibe of what I've got. Give me eight different... [1:51:57] ideas for how to represent this concept. And then I go do my other thing and I don't look at the loading spinner and then I come back and I have a nice little grid in paper has eight different icons with like a little blurb about why for each one. I'm like, okay, that one's interesting. You know, let's make it a little bit more like let's do four more, but make it more rounded. I don't know. It's, it's really good for one ideating on vector. It's also really good for taking an icon that you like [1:52:22] And then just saying, hey, [1:52:24] Make this match the rest of my icon vibe. [1:52:27] Like, [1:52:27] I don't like, all the time for me I'll get an icon, I use phosphor I like a lot. But the phosphor icon, I just don't like that much. And so I will, [1:52:40] Maybe I regret saying this, but like, [1:52:42] Something that I've done is like, [1:52:45] I've. [1:52:45] taken [1:52:46] SVGs from actual products that we know and love, put them on the canvas, [1:52:53] then put my phosphor icon on the canvas, or maybe one of the concepts that Quiver generated that I like. And then I'm like, okay, now... [1:53:01] refine this icon based off of the combination of the way that these two products do it. I want the middle ground between these two SVGs created for me and then match the way that my icons work in code. Dude, it crushes, it crushes. I've been so impressed by the quality of output with that type of workflow.

[1:53:20] Interesting. [1:53:22] Yeah, there's so many ways to create that I can't wait to explore with you on this show. [1:53:29] We have some fun segments coming up, guys. Ridd and I definitely are going to bump heads on a few hot topics, a whole kind of debate thing. We didn't even get to our one-up, man. No, we didn't. Actually, there is a one-up I do want you to show, and I'll show you one, and then we'll probably wrap. [1:53:46] OK, cool. Let's do it. [1:53:47] Um, [1:53:48] So [1:53:49] one of the [1:53:51] And then we'll answer your question, Angelique, as well. That's a good question. [1:53:55] one of the outputs of [1:53:59] of Tommy's radio was Russian on Twitter made, uh, [1:54:04] an interactive TV [1:54:07] Let me make sure that I'm-- hold on, hold on. I'm going to make sure that I'm doing the audio. Yeah, it's going to get it. [1:54:11] Okay, cool. [1:54:12] So, [1:54:14] Look at this, you have like a full little remote here. You can turn on the television. [1:54:20] And [1:54:21] It has all of the sound effects. It's like the same type of concept. You can use... I started off using a spinner, which is super fun. And she has all the sound effects. Very similar. Volume knobs. But then all of these work too. It's like she built the last button. [1:54:39] Remember, like, I used to use the last button with two channels lined up, you know? You can mute, you can flip through. And I think this is so cool, man. I think it's so cool. Even, like, the click effect. And this is the kind of thing...

[1:54:54] That felt really good to do just now. [1:54:57] This is the kind of... [1:55:00] What? [1:55:01] Bye. [1:55:01] who you are at this moment in time, right? Like you talked about the guts to be curious at the beginning. I think this is that. Who wakes up and is like, you know what? I'm going to try to build a television today. [1:55:13] If you are that person, that's a desirable trait. [1:55:16] And I'm not just saying that on a limb, because I literally [1:55:18] do this hiring network where I see all of the inputs from hiring managers and what they're looking for and what the green flags are. And you might look at this and you're like, well, that's not a case study. That's that doesn't show anything about. [1:55:28] the ability to product think or everything. [1:55:31] People don't care. [1:55:33] This is dope. [1:55:34] And it's starting to be celebrated. And I think part of what we want to do on this show is create a space to continually celebrate when the community goes out and does something awesome like this. So shout out, Resham. [1:55:47] And so and to that point, if you are creating something, whether it's for fun, whether it's, you know, just as like a funny inside joke for us or it's something real that you think is awesome. Let us know. We today's our pilot. We're kind of getting through segments and being a little rusty. But the intent here. [1:56:05] is we want to do a one-up weekly where each week, Red and I bring a couple things to the table that neither of us know about, [1:56:11] And we try to one up each other to see who found the most compelling thing. And I thought this was a really cool kind of community tribute here. So super cool. But I got something that I'll show for you. And then I want to answer a question and we'll probably wrap. All right, let's do it. Mixed media. I'm loving it.

[1:56:26] you know, video, motion graphics. How can I bring something like my team member Burnaby's stop motion into a web interface? Lee, I think I talked to you about this earlier this year, sometime last year. [1:56:41] We wanted to do a survey and how do we bring stop motion in? [1:56:45] but in a way that's interactive. And I just wasn't sure how to do it. I thought we could probably create something custom [1:56:51] But what I thought was interesting was what I just found interesting. [1:56:55] recently. [1:56:56] and we'll look at it right here. [1:57:00] Mm-hmm. [1:57:02] which is called aval. I have not tested this yet. [1:57:05] But to be very clear, what we're seeing is – [1:57:09] frames of a video [1:57:11] that parts of it or elements of it only play [1:57:17] when certain interactions are met. Now, this is supposed to be really performant, and I haven't done this pipeline before. I imagine there's a lot of nuances, which I think avow, [1:57:27] is trying to solve for it but this is compelling right now we're over here having all these playground fun and you could certainly probably have some playground fun implementing this [1:57:38] but you could take this a step further and really get interesting. And so I even think about the intro sequence we have. That's just all video and it's here on our live stream. [1:57:47] But you know, like that could get really interesting in some other context. So [1:57:52] I'm going to try this out. [1:57:54] "Look at this, this is cool." - We should for sure try this and report back. 'Cause this is kind of perfect for what we're doing. Like if there was ever gonna be a brand that would

[1:58:01] work for it this is it alex has been just dropping some really interesting things lately yeah you know i i really dig like even this like sticker creation you know it's like the utility on some of this you're like i don't know maybe i could see i could see some ways but i saw this and i saw some some serious utility so very cool good work [1:58:22] We want to see more like it. [1:58:24] I'll answer one more question here. [1:58:26] which was Angelique [1:58:28] asking [1:58:30] How are you guys managing your time? Any scratch pads or apps? [1:58:33] you are using to capture your thoughts. [1:58:37] I've got an answer. [1:58:39] Please. [1:58:41] Well, am I managing my time? So it sounds like you're saying, like, how am I organizing what's going on in my life? [1:58:48] versus like how am I managing my time? [1:58:51] Um... [1:58:52] Well, I don't manage my time extremely well. I just go with the thing that's calling me and then I deal with the consequences afterwards and I don't recommend it. [1:59:01] But I'm just, I'm a psychopath and I just work, when I have a thing that I'm interested in, I just go hard on it. But there is like a managing of knowledge and a managing of things. And so I'm at least keenly aware. [1:59:14] of the things that aren't getting my attention. [1:59:16] And the reason I am is because my surface area is slack and it's my open claw agent. [1:59:22] And I have a whole dashboard. [1:59:23] Where I just feed. My open clot agent is not. It's almost passively aware of everything going on. [1:59:30] And it builds everything. It's like, hey...

[1:59:32] I know you just shipped that dive radio. [1:59:35] But you need to get this ad out over here. And I've had it yell at me before. [1:59:39] Um, so that's kind of how I manage my time as I keep one surface area where everything is input either manually or passively. Um, [1:59:48] and then I have a board that essentially tells me. And I do use Notion, I do use Obsidian for things. [1:59:53] But I've moved away from task management. [1:59:56] from those tools. [1:59:59] Thank you. [1:59:59] Sounds like the system I need, to be honest. Because my answer stops at I just follow whatever is energizing. [2:00:05] It sounds like something a board person builds. Let's be clear. I don't know if it's a system. Maybe. Yeah, maybe, maybe. [2:00:13] I think this is kind of the trap of working for yourself too, where it's like you can be much more fluid. [2:00:20] in ways that I do think are a superpower. Like I'm very much so like you, where it's, if I have a strand that I'm excited to pull on, dude, I'll pull on that strand. And I have no issues staying up till three in the morning randomly because like my wife would be like, when are you going to sleep? [2:00:34] And I wouldn't be. Disclaimer, this is not... [2:00:37] too frequent, you know, [2:00:39] The family man. [2:00:40] But. [2:00:42] If I got something, [2:00:44] And she's like, when are you going to sleep? It's like, I'm going to sleep when I'm too tired. [2:00:48] And I might, you know, this is not... [2:00:50] And if you're excited about something, dude, I'll just go all the time. Eight to three in the morning, I just blitz on the concept. I just make a prototype for seven straight hours because it's so fun. I can't stop all the time. [2:01:02] And...

[2:01:03] Is that the most efficient? I don't know. Pros and cons. [2:01:06] yeah [2:01:07] You just have to weather the occasional panic attack. No biggie. [2:01:11] Is there is there an emotional instability that comes with the way that we work? Maybe should any of this be taken as advice? No, probably not I Joking joking aside. I genuinely I like I said, I have a video coming out where I'm gonna address this very seriously and [2:01:24] I do not recommend. I make fun of morbid things because that's how I cope. But, you know, you have to find your time. You have to manage your things. And occasionally I have a good month of like, man, I really was a big boy. And then like another month, I'm like, oh, I went and built a whole bunch of stuff that, you know. [2:01:40] It was questionable. [2:01:41] um, [2:01:42] So. [2:01:44] Guys, thank you for joining us on our rough start. I promise pretty much most of the same next week with one or 2% better. [2:01:53] That's how we do. [2:01:55] And we really appreciate you coming and hanging out with us. And we hope you'll do it again next week. We started an hour late this week. We'll start an hour earlier next week, God willing. [2:02:04] For real this time. [2:02:06] For real this time. [2:02:07] I'm glad we did it today. We weren't [2:02:10] It was debatable. It was debatable. It was getting tempting to say, oh, we could kick the can one more week. It was getting tempting. Make it more polished. Yeah. [2:02:19] Yeah. [2:02:20] This was good, man. I'm glad. It was like this was the behind the scenes. [2:02:24] like we're we're down to the hour working on this and we we wanted to invite you in so i hope it was enjoyable will it be slightly more polished and [2:02:31] hopefully slightly more productized in the future yeah for sure we'll figure it out but

[2:02:35] Yeah. [2:02:36] It'll be fun. I'm going to go share this video on Twitter. If you guys want to see this weird thing I made with Kling AI. [2:02:41] Definitely still has some... [2:02:43] some elbow grease that could go into it. But I'll say this too. I am on the lookout for Easter eggs. I'm going to be updating this thing every week. [2:02:51] And if we get some funny things from you guys, [2:02:54] Maybe there's no reason [2:02:57] something doesn't end up in that intro. [2:02:59] so [2:03:00] Beautiful. [2:03:01] All right. [2:03:02] Well, we'll catch you next week, guys. Thanks for joining us.