What a $75 Million Airplane Actually Costs to Own

[00:00] Not flying blind. My name is Israel Slotowicz. I'm the founder and CEO of Craft. Open AI just announced that they're going to be public. We're seeing like not just insane wealth creation moment, probably the largest we've seen in the history of humankind, but we're also seeing shift in how people spend their wealth. The most sought after thing once you make some money is start flying private. It's like the one thing everybody looks to do. It's a truly unique rule that nothing else replaces. What does like a Jeff Bezos have? What does Elon Musk have? So when you [00:30] like the Jeff Bezos of the world and Larry Page and Sergey Brin, they're typically G700, global 8000 category. That's like the top of the line. If you buy a $10 million airplane, you can take a $10 million business deduction the year you bought the plane. This is why people are buying $75 million airplanes. That's exactly what people are buying. There's no other good reason. [00:58] Izzy, welcome to Sorcery. It's a beer, thank you. What are we doing right now? Where are we? [01:03] We're sitting on a Challenger 350. [01:06] This is a super mid-aircraft. [01:08] That's... [01:10] You can fly coast to coast. [01:11] New York to... [01:12] California, you can fly California to Hawaii or to Europe. [01:16] This is one of the aircraft that we operate in our charter company. I operate a [01:20] a part 135 charter company that I started [01:23] six years ago while I was still in college [01:25] We now operate a fleet of these. We have pilots and we fly them all year round. We do a lot of supplemental flights for net jets and flux jet and,

[01:32] wheels up and all the large providers [01:34] And I'm excited to talk to you about [01:37] what we're building and about the industry. I'm excited. I... [01:41] Came across you guys through LinkedIn and these posts. You were doing some collaborative posts with some of the interviews that we've done. I did this amazing series with Michelle Delbuono of A16Z Perennial, which is... [01:53] Mark and Ben's multifamily office. We did two episodes so far, and it's all centered on [01:59] the major wealth creation event that's happening right now, [02:02] We're about to have more millionaires and billionaires minted than ever before with the OpenAI... [02:09] SpaceX IPO, Anthropic IPO, the Cerebris one that just happened, and all the secondaries and tenders that are going on also behind the surface. But right now we're in this crazy period of time where... [02:21] A lot of people are going to be making a lot of money. And so... [02:24] With these conversations, I've been trying to get down to, okay, [02:29] What do you do once you have that wealth? How do you manage it? [02:34] And one of the topics in the conversation on wealth management [02:37] is private aviation. So I'm really excited for [02:41] to talk about this today. And I'm just really curious. So [02:45] Are we seeing more private jets? What's the state of the market? [02:49] Yeah, I mean, so it's, like you said, it's absolutely insane. [02:52] what's going on right now. We're sitting here on a Sunday, [02:55] SpaceX is supposed to IPO this Thursday. So some of our clients and a lot of our investors are going to be in New York for this

[03:02] iconic [03:03] IPO probably the [03:05] largest IPO by... [03:08] twice as much as the last one and [03:10] This is just the first of many, right? OpenAI just announced that they're going to be going public. [03:15] And we're seeing, like, not just insane... [03:19] wealth creation, [03:21] moment probably [03:23] the largest we've seen in the history of [03:26] humankind, but we're also seeing a shift in how [03:31] people spend their wealth and their priorities and also the type of wealth that they are generating. It's not the same wealth that was generated. [03:38] historically where people kind of built a business over many, many years and they slowly diversified. New money. It was just like completely new money. [03:45] So there's like this massive tsunami that's hitting and we're seeing it. [03:49] In our business, we're seeing it in the preferences of what people are choosing, how they're accessing private aviation. And of course, like. [03:56] Of course, the most... [03:58] sought after thing once you make some money is to start flying private. It's like the one thing everybody [04:03] looks to do. It's truly a unique tool that [04:07] Nothing else replaces. So how is that changing? Who's buying jets versus who's chartering them? What is the difference? [04:14] First of all, we're seeing people entering the market buying... [04:19] bigger airplanes [04:20] So this airplane, for example, this is a Challenger [04:23] $3.50. [04:24] It's considered a super mid. It's considered what I like to call a proper jet. It has a flat floor. Normally people would sort of enter the market by starting to charter or they would start with getting a light jet.

[04:35] And people are now going straight for the super mids, straight for the heavys. [04:39] They're going straight towards buying or even chartering the... [04:44] latest and greatest so we're just seeing like this [04:47] big sort of skipping of steps. [04:49] that we are accustomed to [04:52] in our industry. The other thing that I'll say about our industry is [04:56] If there's almost 8 billion people in the world [04:58] If 0.0001% of them are flying private today, and that doubles, which I think it's going to more than double. [05:05] to .0002. [05:07] That has like a... [05:09] huge cataclysmic effect on our industry. - Why, what do you mean? - So our industry is just not really built for the manufacturers, the OEMs, the supply chain, [05:20] engines, parts, the speed at which these factories are able to build airplanes, the speed at which you can train pilots. Are we going to have a shortage? There's going to be a huge shortage. Yeah. I mean, these are obviously depreciating assets. These airplanes, you know, airplanes are equipment. Right. They don't go up in value normally, but we're seeing them go up in value for the first time almost ever, especially in the. [05:39] higher end of the market. [05:41] So that like small little change in wealth, which I think is actually huge, [05:45] is something this industry is not at all ready for. And I think there's going to be a lot of adjustment and [05:52] price. [05:53] fluctuation and uncertainty until, until like the, the new, the new wave sort of takes effect. I guess to give more of like the one-on-one behind all the sizes and pricings and that kind of thing, could you walk through, you mentioned it before, but like, can you walk through all the sizes and then up to like, okay, what is like,

[06:11] Jeff Bezos have? What does Elon Musk have? Drake has a very weird plane, but that's just him, and that was a deal. But I'm curious, could you like walk through all the different [06:22] planes and like when you should start at which one and then obviously we can talk about the different kinds of [06:28] financing options for those. But I guess first let's start with the sizes and the prices on them. - Yeah, so typically like the entry level [06:37] what was the entry level [06:39] would be something like a [06:41] Maybe a light shot. [06:42] So like a phenom... [06:45] 100 or a phenom 300 [06:48] It seats about [06:49] Six, you can fly about an hour, two-hour flight. [06:52] Step above that, you go into the midsize category. Citation XLS or Latitude are like the popular ones. [07:02] Step above that we go into the super mid category. This is like, as I call it, the proper jet, which is what we're in today. [07:08] Super mid category, you have the Challenger 350 that we're in today, and then there's the Praetor 600. [07:15] Also a phenomenal airplane. [07:17] Um, [07:19] Above that we go into the heavy jet category. [07:21] So think of like a Gulfstream G450, [07:25] People are flying these... [07:27] heavy jets quite frequently, even on short missions. [07:30] So we're seeing people who have large families, [07:33] that want to travel, that they're like, we don't even want the... [07:36] light or [07:38] super mad, like they're going straight for the heavy even on a two or three hour flight.

[07:41] And then of course, [07:43] If you want to go to Europe, [07:45] you would do something called an ultra long range. [07:48] something like a Global 8000 is like the... [07:50] Top of the line, [07:51] So when you think about like, [07:53] the Jeff Bezos of the world and the Larry and Sergey Brin or Larry Page and Sergey Brin, you're, you're, they're typically G700, you're, [08:03] Global 8,000 category. That's like the... [08:06] Top of the line. And you fly too. [08:09] I'm a pilot as well. I'm a certified pilot. I only mostly fly for fun now. I have a full company to manage and keeps me quite busy. [08:16] I am certified in this airplane actually. - You're flying today. - I'm not gonna be flying today. Yeah, yeah, we have two great pilots on board, but I'll be flying from back here. - So walking through all of those different options, when does it make sense to buy a plane versus charter? - So the... [08:34] Traditional logic is... [08:37] somewhere between 150 hours a year [08:39] to 250 hours a year is when you want to start thinking about owning a plane. [08:43] But I think it's important to really understand why [08:46] And it's important to understand what are the reasons you really want to own a plate. [08:50] The first reason is... [08:53] The flexibility. So when you charter or when you even own a fraction of an airplane, there's usually like long call out, usually at least a 24 hour notice call out. [09:04] and they're not very flexible on changing your time when you wanna leave. So I have an example of a customer of ours that [09:11] Flew to he had a bunch of warehouses in the Reno area. He lived in San Francisco and

[09:16] And he owns a plane. He flew his plane to... [09:20] to Reno to go visit his factories. And initially his scheduled return was supposed to be for 6 p.m., but by 1 p.m. he was done his [09:27] Tor [09:28] So he decided, hey, text my pilots and... [09:31] see if they're ready to go. And by the time you got to the airport, the plane was all buttoned up and they were out four hours early. When you're chartering [09:38] Or when you look at like a fraction of ownership, it's a lot more difficult to do that. [09:41] So there's like some flexibility, I think, in owning a plane. And even if you're flying less than 150 hours, [09:47] you might want to consider [09:49] owning [09:50] Just because if you need that, like, [09:51] for our less sort of call out. [09:54] On the other side of the spectrum, [09:57] Owning a plane is extremely complex. [10:00] it's basically running a little mini airline. You're dealing with pilots, you're dealing with maintenance, [10:03] Do you have to put that in an LLC? Like, how do you... [10:07] actually make that like tax advantage. Yeah, I mean, typically all aircraft are in a single purpose LLC, like an SPV, and they'll usually be like under the business. So an LLC, it's owned by the business, and then the LLC will have a lease agreement in place. [10:21] with the business for tax efficiency. [10:23] But... [10:24] Yeah, so I think like on the other side of the spectrum, owning an airplane is complicated. There's a lot that goes into it. We'll talk more about that. [10:30] So we're seeing people that are even flying 300 hours a year. They're like, I don't want to deal with owning a plane. [10:36] And I think actually that's one of the big differences in this new generation of wealth. [10:40] These people don't want complexity. Most of them [10:43] are able to book well in advance they're not last-minute people they're they are willing to book

[10:48] seven days in advance, two weeks in advance. They don't need that four hour call out most of the time. [10:52] If they do, they can... [10:53] find other options. And [10:56] Those people would rather simplicity, ease of use. They don't want to deal with the complexity of owning a plane. So in some cases, even above 300 hours, it doesn't always make sense to own. But typically, [11:07] you know, in that sort of range. The second reason you own a plane is for cost efficiency. So once you start [11:11] hitting the 250 hour range, the cost of [11:15] owning and spreading the pilot costs and all the fixed costs around [11:19] around one aircraft flying $300 a year starts to make much more sense. [11:24] Okay, let's go through a scenario. [11:26] You just bought a global 8000. [11:28] Walk through the financing of that and the maintenance. So this is an extreme example. I'm aware. It's an extreme example. But like, let's shock the people. Yeah, well, I think like, first of all, Global 8000 is like a $75 million airplane, right? Just to put things into perspective. [11:41] So that's like extremely expensive airplane to buy. It's really like you're going for the top of the line. [11:48] Most people don't actually buy [11:51] Brand new. [11:52] Even if they can, they don't. [11:54] So the maintenance for a brand new airplane looks very different than a maintenance on a used airplane. Most people tend to buy equipment. [12:01] used aircraft, aircraft that are pre-owned, [12:04] That's what it's called. Whereas a new aircraft, you'll have like warranties and all sorts of – the manufacturer will give you all sorts of stuff like that, make the maintenance costs – [12:12] a little bit less expensive. [12:14] But, [12:15] Say you bought a global 8,000. [12:18] $75 million.

[12:21] Typically, the first thing you have to think about is [12:24] depreciation costs. [12:25] So the aircraft do generally go down in value. [12:29] They generally do not go up in value. So if you factor in [12:34] a 10% a year reduction in value, [12:37] the [12:39] when you go to sell the play and you're not gonna be able to get as much money back. [12:41] So a lot of people kind of ignore that, but you really want to bake that into the [12:46] cost of running the plane. [12:48] Then you need to hire pilots. [12:50] So you'll have to go out and find pilots. Typically... [12:54] You'll want at least three pilots. [12:56] especially if you're gonna fly longer missions. [12:58] Pilots get sick. Pilots need to go to training twice a year. So you'll need a higher... [13:03] three to four pilots. [13:05] That might run you... [13:06] one to 2 million a year. There's insurance costs, there's hanger costs, [13:09] And then there's maintenance costs, of course, right? And maintenance costs is kind of where everybody gets... [13:13] They buy the plane. They think it's like, it's great investment. And then they're like, [13:17] Now the plane's down for six months because... [13:19] the windshield breaks or they can't get a part for the engine. So maintenance is like another area. And this is kind of where people maybe try it out and then swear off after doing it for some time. [13:30] Go through the different prices of citation... [13:33] G, $450. We obviously just went through global $8,000, but maybe just talk through the starter kind of prices. [13:42] First of all, there's a journalist called Doug Golan who has a – [13:47] website called private jet card comparisons. He does a great job. If you are very serious about flying private and you do want to get like the latest information,

[13:54] pricing on jet cards and different aircraft categories [13:58] Highly recommend looking into Doug Golan. But I think the pricing is somewhere around... [14:05] $7,500 for entry level light jet per hour to fly, about $9,500 an hour for a midsize. So most people are actually, you know, buying, it's not that they can't buy new, [14:16] the [14:17] Don't buy new. [14:18] Because buying new is like very, very expensive. [14:20] But if you're buying sort of pre-owned airplane, [14:24] A light jet will run you [14:26] around [14:27] three to five million bucks. [14:30] A mid-size something like this. [14:32] will be [14:33] anywhere from [14:34] 10 to 20. [14:35] and a heavy jet maybe 20 to 30. [14:38] million dollars. Just the sticker price, just to get into the airplane. Buying the plane is just the beginning of the journey, right? That's the cheapest part of owning a plane. Then you have [14:48] the pilots, the fixed cost, the mains cost, the fuel cost, you're probably looking at anywhere from [14:52] two to four million bucks a year to run the plane. Just... [14:55] Just to keep it running for you. So as you can see, it's very expensive. And unless you really have a need for it or a real business need for it, it's something that a lot of people will do and then they'll swear off of it. Since we just went through what full ownership looks like, let's get more to what most people actually do. And so there's a couple different options. [15:18] where you can charter, you can get a jet card, and then you can also do fractional ownership. What can you just define for people who don't know? Define what each one of those are and then how the pricing changes. Yeah, so...

[15:31] typically the way people [15:33] First experience, private aviation is [15:36] maybe they've heard of like an empty leg, right? They've jumped on an empty leg. What an empty leg is, is where [15:41] The plane maybe... [15:43] has one trip landing in LA, [15:45] Another trip the next day is departing out of San Francisco. [15:48] So the plane will need to move reposition between LA and San Francisco. And sometimes companies will sell that as an empty leg. [15:56] and for a significantly reduced price, because they have to go anyways. [16:00] So sometimes people get experience with private aviation through these empty legs, but I think it's [16:05] probably worth glossing over because it's not really the utility and the reason people would fly private, right? Like an empty leg is more of a luxurious, more of an experiential type of transaction. Um, [16:16] People buy airplanes or people fly private. They typically do it as a utility, as a way to... [16:21] conduct business or, [16:22] for ease of comfort with her family. [16:25] And they want to be able to go on their schedule. They don't want to be flying on someone else's schedule. [16:30] So typically the way somebody will enter the market is through charter. [16:35] Usually the first taste they'll have in private aviation. We operate a charter company. We charter our airplanes out. [16:41] Chartering a plane can be great because you don't have all the commitments, but you really have to be careful of like... [16:49] Safety. [16:50] it's very hard to know what you're going to get, and the prices can fluctuate quite a bit. [16:55] drastically. [16:56] So, [16:57] One day it might cost you life. [16:59] $12,000, the next day it's costing you $24,000 for the exact same flight.

[17:04] Right. So a lot of times people will charter and then [17:07] Why are the prices fluctuating so much? [17:11] they'll upgrade to what's called Jacquard. [17:14] I'll explain to you what a jet card is. [17:15] A jacquard is essentially [17:18] Prepaid charter. [17:19] So you're giving a deposit to somebody, [17:22] and [17:24] They are essentially sourcing charter for you at a fixed price. [17:28] So rather than one day paying [17:30] $12,000 the next day paying [17:31] $24,000, they'll charge you $18,999. [17:35] and you'll pay for both flights $18,900. So actually you're actually paying a little bit more than you would have paid. [17:41] during charter. [17:42] But you at least know... [17:44] When you want to fly, it's going to cost you $18,999. So you're really getting... [17:49] essentially more expensive charter. So it's, and also, Jackard is typically like where you'll first... [17:56] Maybe get a taste of a net jets or a flex jet. [17:59] type of experience, because they offered JetCard services as well. [18:03] So that's typically where you'll maybe first enter into the [18:06] the bigger leagues of flying private. [18:08] Then where does fractional come in? So fractional comes in really at the next... [18:11] the next. [18:12] step right so fractional so you maybe maybe you flew some charters and [18:17] Didn't like that you kept getting different airplanes and different prices. You got a jack hard. [18:21] And you just... [18:23] gave him a massive deposit, and you realize it wasn't that much better than charter. So you decide, okay, now I want to maybe... [18:29] move to the ownership side of the aisle. [18:31] And fractional is really on the ownership side of the aisle. So the main difference between the two is that on the fractional side,

[18:37] you know, you're, you are carrying the residual risks of the plane. [18:41] So if the airplane depreciates, [18:43] um, [18:44] the, that the cost of depreciation, the cost of capital is essentially on your dime, not on the charter company's dime. So, [18:52] You're getting a more consistent experience. [18:54] You're getting an ownership type of experience. So you're getting a premium sort of product. [19:00] But... [19:01] You're also paying a premium for it because you hold essentially the residual risk of the aircraft. So fractional and the two largest providers is NetJets and then second largest is [19:11] Flex chat. [19:12] do a phenomenal job and you can essentially [19:15] fire [19:16] 1/8th or 1/16th of a plane, they'll manage all the operations, the pilots, you'll never have to worry about maintenance. [19:22] plane will be there at [19:24] hours or 24 hours notice [19:26] and [19:27] you're sort of getting a taste of [19:30] You run a charter business. How is it different? [19:33] Basically, there's two sides to craft. There's like our operating business, which is like somewhere in between the fractional and the Jacquard, where mostly like a B2B. [19:41] company we sell to all these other larger companies which are brokers on these platforms [19:44] But what makes it interesting is that we actually... [19:47] Because it's an operating business and we generate [19:49] cash, we are able to run this exchange fund, which is a completely separate financial [19:55] Product. [19:56] that's designed for people that have low basis stock. [19:59] Exchange funds, are you familiar with exchange funds at all? Yeah, so exchange funds, you know, a simple way to explain it is like, you know, [20:06] 10 people come together with 10 different stocks.

[20:08] and they all [20:09] contribute the stock into a fund and they all get [20:12] the benefit of owning. What people don't realize is that [20:15] Unless you have an operating business to run it through, like you have a business, right? You have income, you have cashflow, right? So you have a business you're running, you're running everything through. Unless you have an operating business to run it through. [20:26] You're [20:27] there aren't really any tax benefits. If you're like a SpaceX employee and you have a lot of stock, [20:31] You don't have a business to run this airplane through. So not only are you paying sticker price, [20:37] for the flights [20:39] But you're actually paying almost double that because you have to sell stock [20:42] to fund it. [20:44] Right? [20:46] This is, I think, one of the problems with this sort of new... [20:50] massive [20:51] wealth [20:53] creation. And just the onslaught of Silicon Valley becoming so big and all these people with huge equity values. Yeah. It's insane. And the legacy models of putting your [21:06] buying an airplane, running it through your business and taking tax it right off. Like it doesn't quite work for these people. They're, um, [21:12] net worth is in capital gains, not in ordinary income. So we actually built an exchange fund [21:18] Which is a [21:19] very old [21:20] financial product or financial structure where people can diversify people, a bunch of people can contribute their stock [21:27] into a fun pool together. [21:29] Kind of like a potluck. [21:31] Right. Where [21:33] Everybody comes with a dish and they walk away with a meal. [21:36] and, um, and [21:38] One of the requirements, one of the rules for these funds to exist is that there needs to be an operating business in the fund as well.

[21:43] and historically exchanged funds have used [21:45] real estate and public storage units in Albuquerque, right? And like self-storage, like things that people don't care about. And what we did was we took an already existing business, [21:53] thriving operating cash flow business. [21:56] and we basically layered an exchange fund on top of that. [22:00] And what that allows us to do is it allows us to offer the members in the fund [22:05] access premium access to these planes they wouldn't be able to get otherwise [22:09] Wow. You have VCs on your website. Did you raise venture capital? Like, how did this start? Well, it actually just started by understanding that [22:21] My problem was their problem. [22:23] My problem was that I realized that when I had a single airplane, [22:27] I had a very... [22:29] volatile... [22:30] Uh, [22:31] p l profit and loss statement right so like one month we had like very profitable the next month it was like very unprofitable because there was some sort of maintenance issue or a pilot left and [22:41] And what I realized is like as I started adding more airplanes to my fleet, [22:45] I realized that the volatility started to calm down. And then while one airplane was down, four airplanes were flying. And when one airplane was down, six airplanes were flying. [22:54] And I realized that the customers that I was flying had the exact same issue. They didn't really have a private aviation issue. [23:01] There are many options when it comes to private aviation, all very good ones. But what they did have was a stock problem. [23:07] right, big part of their net worth. [23:09] was [23:10] concentrated in a single company. [23:13] They were one article, one news report away from losing 13, 14% of their net worth in a day.

[23:20] Right. [23:21] IBM lost 13% of its value in a single day. [23:24] I think Broadcom just now, just this past week, lost like 10% in one day on... [23:29] a single earnings call or a single article that Anthropic is building some sort of software, right? [23:36] People who have now built this sort of generational... [23:39] wealth for the first time. [23:41] also had a volatility issue. And I realized that [23:45] I had the same problem my customers had. [23:47] And that's when I started to learn about exchange funds and understand how they work and their mechanics and do deep dive and ultimately like. [23:54] came to my customers and said, "Hey, this is what I'm building." And they were immediately very interested. And that's kind of how we pivoted into this exchange fund model. [24:03] Sorcery is brought to you by Brex, the financial stack trusted by more than 30,000 companies, including one in three venture-backed startups in the U.S. Nearly 40% of startups bail because they run out of cash. Brex is literally built to help founders avoid that. Unlike traditional banks that let your money sit idle, chipping away at it with fees, Brex is designed to help you spend smarter and move faster. [24:33] powerful account. You can send and receive money globally at lightning speeds, get 20 times the standard FDIC coverage through their partner banks, and even high yield from day one. But same day and even same hour liquidity, access your funds anytime. Companies like Scale AI, DoorDash, Service Titan, HIMSS, Anthropic, Flexport, Robinhood, and Plaid trust and use Brex.

[25:03] Turing is training the next generation of AI with tasks that require real expertise and real world judgment. That's why companies like NVIDIA, Anthropic, Salesforce, and Gemini partner with Turing. Turing builds realistic reinforcement learning environments and data systems based on real operational traces, the kind of infrastructure frontier labs need to train superintelligence. Visit Turing.com slash S-O-U-R-C-E-R-Y. [25:33] - Okay, Izzy, we are now flying. We're in air. It's actually not that loud. [25:39] I was really worried about that. [25:40] It's pretty quiet. There's pilots in the cockpit. [25:43] You just walk through. [25:45] the different types of financing [25:48] and we used to [25:50] fly private. [25:51] But what is the most... [25:52] economical way to fly private. [25:55] On a friend's airplane. Okay. It's free. [26:00] How do you find these friends? That's the key question. I think the truth is flying private is not economical. There is no... [26:09] real economical way to do it. It's a very expensive... [26:12] thing and [26:13] It's really a matter of priorities, if it's something that is important to you, if you see the... [26:17] utility of it as important to you in life. [26:19] Um, but flying private isn't cheap. There is no, there is no cheap way to do it. [26:23] Yeah, last year in 2025, I think it was... [26:27] Publicly reported that Alex Karp... [26:29] spent around $17 million on flying and it,

[26:33] if you kind of like do some of the math on... [26:37] the price and the per hour [26:39] It came out to around three months in the air. Yeah, yeah. I think I saw that report, and it's probably like, I think they have like two airplanes. I think maybe the way they leased it back to the company, they did some... [26:53] They probably structured it as like a dry lease or something. But yeah, it sounds like they're in there a lot. I mean, you see like SpaceX, Elon Musk, like he's flying. I mean, I'm sure you've seen that clip of like... [27:03] you know, one year of his flights like you just there's just things. [27:06] you can't do without private aviation. You just can't do it. [27:10] Like what we're doing today, just being able to go to San Francisco, [27:12] for the night [27:14] have a few meetings tomorrow and then come back when we're done. You just can't do that. [27:18] LA is the best commuter place for people in San Francisco. [27:22] You don't live in LA, you don't get it, but it's very beautiful. Okay, I have a really fun question. Who do you think flies more? Elon Musk... [27:31] Alex Karp, Jeff Bezos, Taylor Swift, [27:35] Or Jensen Wong? I think the answer is easy, Elon Musk. [27:39] Elon. Absolutely. Even though it's mostly domestic. [27:42] Yeah, but I mean, I think, first of all, he flies international as well. But like, I mean, he's running, what, how many companies? [27:47] Going between each company and he like goes in office and [27:51] and is there in person [27:52] I remember when I was just starting to fly out of Hawthorne Airport, I'd see his plane come in and land and see him get off and on. It was just very inspiring. Yeah. [28:01] - So Preston makes a lot of content around the financing of private aviation.

[28:06] What does he mostly cover? What should people be reading? [28:10] Preston Holland, he has a podcast. He talks about aviation finance in general. He's a broker. So if you're looking to buy a plane, you're looking for a loan, [28:19] He'll help you find a bank. [28:21] Financing a plane is kind of like [28:24] financing the car. [28:25] A bank will want to securitize the aircraft, the file lien on the airplane. [28:30] And then they'll also want to look at your personal [28:33] financials and make sure you have the ability to repay [28:36] Alone. [28:38] Financing fractional is a little bit more difficult. [28:40] So if you go to like NetJets, for an example, they have their own... [28:43] in-house financing departments so you can get a loan there but most other fractionals there's only a select few banks that will [28:49] that will do finance. Actually, a fun fact is that only 30% of aircraft have [28:55] Loans on them. [28:56] Really? Yeah. 70% of people are closing cash. [28:59] And a lot of it has to do, it's just very difficult. [29:02] to go through the process, get a load. A lot of people don't want to like [29:05] Personally guaranteed. [29:07] these loans and how are they just closing cash don't want to deal with the hassle. I'm working on a company right now called Radar which is focused on [29:14] providing financing [29:16] for people who want to do asset back, like, [29:20] no PG, non-recourse type loans for aircraft, because they are really good assets to finance against. [29:25] So what are the biggest mistakes people make when they're buying a plane? [29:31] It's a great question. [29:33] A lot of times people think that they'll find a better price on the market for a plane, so...

[29:38] Sometimes people won't sign an exclusive with a broker. [29:41] like a reputable broker, though they won't sign an exclusive, they won't sign an exclusive, [29:44] And they'll say, you know what, whoever brings me the best. [29:46] best price, I'll buy their plane. And what ends up happening is you have all these sort of like back-to-back shady transactions that happen sometimes where somebody will bring you an airplane and they buy it for much cheaper and they flip it to you and you don't really know what's going on. [30:00] When you have a reputable broker that you have an exclusive you sign with, [30:05] They will... [30:06] they will tell you if you're overpaying for the plane, right? Because their interest is making sure you get the best airplane for the best price. So a lot of times people think that they're going to save some money and they're going to find some good airplane. They find some off-market airplane they think is a really good deal. They buy it and they realize there was like, [30:20] four transactions before. So I think that's like a pretty big mistake people make. What questions should they be asking in any of these processes from chartering, [30:28] to buying, whether it's the year of the plane, what kind of inspections they should be looking for, insurance, that kind of stuff. [30:34] I think corrosion is like really the big thing. [30:37] thing that gets you when it comes to buying airplanes. There's nothing that would be more expensive than corrosion because- That sounds terrifying. It is very terrifying, financially terrifying. [30:46] Because if you discover corrosion in an airplane, [30:50] Sometimes they will have to re-engineer an entire component. [30:54] for an actual part of the plane that could take months and cost like hundreds of thousands of dollars. There's probably nothing [31:00] That will cost... [31:01] you more money on an airplane [31:03] than a problem with regard to corrosion, especially with regard to the engines. [31:07] What about insurance? Like what are you or inspections and that kind of stuff? Like, what are you?

[31:11] Yeah, I mean, aircraft have engine insurance. It's called engine programs, is what they're called, where the manufacturers insure the engine. [31:19] I've heard stories of people not [31:21] enrolling in these programs. I think David Sachs said that he wasn't [31:24] enrolling his aircraft in engine programs. I guess if you have the balance sheet and you're willing to withstand, you can afford a pretty... [31:31] big event if something happens and you're willing to afford a few months of downtime, [31:37] You could do that, but really, you know, these engine manufacturers, they really have a monopoly on... [31:43] the supply chain [31:44] of the engines. [31:46] so [31:47] If you're not on a program... [31:49] and something happens, you go to the bottom of the list for the parts. It is a big issue. [31:54] and [31:55] The companies like us and other companies that can get together and they have some negotiating power can go to these companies. [32:00] these manufacturers and get some leverage. But if you're a single person buying an airplane on your own, a single airplane, you don't have a lot of leverage. [32:08] And things can get very expensive. [32:10] We're in a cockpit. Okay. You were talking about... Or as we call it nowadays, a flight deck. You were talking about... Wait, really? Yeah, they changed it. They changed it? Well, I guess. Why'd they change it? I don't know. Maybe it's like a little bit more... [32:23] Politically correct. [32:24] I don't understand. Why? Why? [32:26] Well, that's not politically correct. I don't know. It's they also changed. [32:31] It used to be called... [32:33] airmen [32:34] A pilot was considered an airman. [32:37] And now it's maybe air person. I don't know. Yeah. So, yeah, pilots have to go every...

[32:43] every six months into simulator training. [32:46] It's about a week long. [32:48] and you sit into something that looks just like this, so everything's about the same. [32:51] It's full motion, so you feel turns and everything, and you go over all sorts of emergencies and different sort of stuff. [32:59] I think something interesting that I found going from being a pilot to being a founder, [33:04] that's really helped me as a pilot. You know, when you're flying the plane, maybe over Las Vegas, [33:08] and you're [33:09] you know, an hour out from L.A. [33:12] you're already starting to think ahead about the landing in LA. You're thinking about what the weather's like there, what runway you're going to be using, what the sort of arrival is going to look like. So even though you're still over Las Vegas, you're kind of really thinking, thinking, [33:26] an hour ahead of time um and i think that running a business is very similar right like you're you're even though there's [33:31] stuff you're dealing with today, you're dealing with [33:34] things that are happening on the day to day, you're also [33:37] thinking ahead and making sure that you're planning for the arrival. So I think that's something that just [33:44] the training of being a pilot helps in some ways with being a founder. [33:48] What's been your favorite part? [33:50] of being a pilot. [33:52] Getting to meet very incredible people. Really? Yeah, absolutely. [33:55] How many people have you flown? - I've flown quite a bit of people. I think it's like, you know, there's the celebrities and everybody wants to hear about the people we fly, but I think that really, [34:07] getting to know on an intimate level [34:10] people [34:11] that, um, [34:12] like building like these good relationships with, with,

[34:15] the businessmen, the venture capitalists, people that really see private aviation as a utility and a tool for them, [34:21] Um, [34:22] getting to spend time with them, getting to talk to them, talking about my business, like [34:26] These are just like an incredible experience that someone like me who, um, [34:30] dropped out of high school, would never otherwise... [34:34] gets a Dracula. So I just think like [34:36] Meeting some really incredible people, I would say. What do you think the biggest misconception is about private aviation and the glamour about it? [34:45] That's a great question. Um, and I have a great answer for you. Okay. Um, [34:50] People think it's a luxury. [34:52] People think of it, they sort of, they compare it to like a yacht. [34:54] right but like [34:56] you know [34:57] You cannot... [34:58] You go on a yacht for, you can spend a week on a yacht. You don't spend a week on a private jet. [35:02] They think that a private jet is a luxury [35:06] And in reality, this is a tool. [35:08] to allow people more time [35:11] to do more... [35:13] Today, we're going to go to San Francisco. We've got some meetings. We're going to come back tomorrow, right? Like, we wouldn't be able to... [35:18] leave on our schedule, come back on our schedule and, um, [35:22] and get so much done, [35:23] without private aviation. I think that there's a common misconception that it's a luxury and it really isn't. [35:28] And I think that a lot of times private aviation companies tend to mask [35:33] what they're doing with luxury because of how opaque the pricing is, because of how [35:38] expensive it is and it's very expensive to fly private. There is no cheap way to fly private. People like to mask that with this idea of luxury when it really isn't. It's just a tool.

[35:48] How big of a difference did it make on the business or at least the experience when you guys got Starlink? [35:54] A huge difference. [35:55] We've been operating Starlink from basically the moment that they came out. We started off with the Starlink minis and then eventually when they got the full certification, we installed the full certification right away. [36:05] But it is a... [36:07] The only way to describe it is it's a game changer. Like, people today won't fly if you don't have Starlink. They won't get on the plane. To be able to continue what you're doing, like, if you have Zoom calls, just be able to... [36:18] have that continuity you know these other the other the other systems out there like they're they have good [36:24] when you're in the U.S., [36:25] But. [36:26] They have lags. They work and they stop working. They work and they stop working. Starlink is just like... [36:30] an absolute game changer and all of our aircraft have Starlink. [36:34] And I think there's a [36:35] A dish right there. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. There's literally... It's just a dish. No, no. We have an actual Starlink on top of the... Oh, this is just an extra one? This is like a backup, yeah. This is a backup. It's a backup. They've got backup Starlink. Yeah, yeah. Wow. We fly... [36:48] Lots of fintech companies, founders of fintech companies that are [36:52] Need to be on the market? They don't take their head out of their computer from the moment they get on the plane to the moment they get off. So having... [37:01] The best of the best. [37:02] I have a hard question for you. That's very important. [37:06] How long and what is the process like for installing Starlink? And why are the commercial... [37:12] planes taking forever because [37:15] I think majority of planes, their Wi-Fi is a scam. So like what is the actual truth there?

[37:20] Yeah, well, I mean, it's good. We're seeing some airlines now say they're going to install Starling. I think United and American both signed an agreement to further hopefully. I'm not sure why Delta didn't do that. [37:30] I suspect you're probably going to lose some customers because of that. [37:33] I think right now Starlink is changing their whole assembly line. [37:38] for their new version of the disc. [37:40] which has the ability to download much more, like it has higher bandwidth. [37:45] than the current dish that we have right now. [37:47] It's almost double. So I think that they've decided that they were going to stop production. [37:51] um, [37:52] upgrade the production line and then now they're starting to roll out with the new one so i think um [37:58] I think we're going to see it start to roll out quickly. [38:01] Of course, commercial aviation seems to get a priority over private aviation sometimes. Really? I feel like none of them even have it on any of their planes. So I interviewed Jake Paul. [38:10] He just got a beautiful new plane, and I asked him if he had Starlink, and I think he said he doesn't yet, and it takes three months to get it installed, so you have to ground it and that kind of thing. Yeah, well, not to ground the plane. That's a little extreme, but maybe there's something else going on there. But we have orders for Starlink kits all the way through, like, end of next year, all the way through end of 2027. So, yeah, you have to put down... [38:31] put it on the closet [38:32] And, you know, [38:33] Then they, they start, they come about three, three months apart. So we, yeah, so we have like all throughout next year, uh, Starlink, uh, [38:40] kits being sent. It's about a $300,000 cost to install on an aircraft like this. [38:46] very slightly on a bigger aircraft or small aircraft. But to me, [38:49] If you're flying private and you don't have Starlink, why are you flying private?

[38:54] Exactly. [38:55] It's a good place to leave it. [38:57] Anything else we should talk about while we're in the cockpit? No. Or the people pit or whatever you call it now? The cockpit? The people pit? The flight deck. The flight deck. [39:06] Anything else? Do you have a favorite button? Are you going to put that one in? Yeah. Absolutely. We're keeping that in. Oh, no. Do you have a favorite button? Yeah, what's the favorite button? What? [39:16] Well, this is the autopilot disconnect button. [39:18] Okay. Just right about in here. And this is when you actually start to pan fly it yourself. [39:22] So it's always nice to every once in a while take over and, [39:24] and fly. I try to stay away from the buttons that have red on them. [39:28] In general. [39:29] Matt. [39:30] quite sure why. [39:31] They just they say don't touch. They scare you. Yeah, don't don't touch the right buttons. Okay. [39:36] This is like our power lever. So this is like when you're ready for takeoff, you push that forward. [39:42] That's like hitting the gas pedal in your car. And you can just touch that while we're on the ground? Well, right now the engines are not running. Oh, okay. That's good to know. But when the engines are running, this will produce all the power. So you can watch on takeoff as the... [39:55] the pilots advance this. [39:56] This is the lever of where we put the landing gear up. So once the airplane's in the air and we have a safe distance from the ground, the pilots put the landing gear up and these three gears, this is the left gear, the right gear and the nose gear. [40:09] will come up. [40:10] My favorite button is probably this button, the autopilot button. I feel like I shouldn't have asked you this question because I'm being so nervous whenever you touch anything. [40:19] Yeah, so my favorite button is the autopilot button. It's when once we get in the plane and [40:23] Once we're off the ground, especially autopilot and chill.

[40:28] So one of my friends got their pilot's license a couple of years ago and I, [40:35] I asked, I was like, [40:36] When you got your pilot's license, was it like getting your driver's license and like feeling the freedom? And he was like... [40:42] thousand times more than that. Yeah. Did you like is that how you feel? I got my pilot's license before I got my driver's license. Really? Yeah. [40:50] I got a college license on my 17th birthday. Okay. Okay. [40:53] which is the legal age to get it. [40:55] Actually at this airport right here, Van Nuys Airport. [40:57] And I got my permit maybe when I was 16 and a half, but I think I got my driver's license at 17 and a half. [41:04] So I was flying airplanes... [41:06] by myself, before I was driving a car by myself. [41:10] And it is... [41:11] one of the [41:13] greatest... [41:16] feelings of [41:17] agency [41:19] that you can have, especially as a 17-year-old. [41:22] to [41:23] flying aircraft on your own. [41:25] And I think that that maybe is another thing that has... [41:29] led me towards [41:31] continuous agency in my life and continuously... [41:35] wanting to build and do more things. [41:38] More pilots. We need more pilots. [41:40] Well, you need more pilots. [41:41] Okay? [41:42] Cool. What do you think of the cockpit? [41:43] I think this is really fun. It's very intimidating. What's your favorite button? I feel like I shouldn't be sitting here. [41:50] I don't have a favorite button because I don't really know what any of them do. [41:56] You can... [41:57] Push this button in if you want.

[41:59] Why? [42:00] Just to see what it does. I push it? Yeah, I just push it down. [42:03] No, I don't want to. Too scary. Is that going to make a plane? [42:06] Oh. [42:08] *whistling* [42:10] I have to get out of here. What's the most common cause of downtime and not being able to use the aircraft? Because I know people who have [42:20] bought recent aircrafts, I don't know the model or the year or anything like that, but [42:25] then they're all of a sudden... [42:26] stock servicing it or the plane's been down for like, [42:30] a year or more and that kind of thing. Like, so what are the most common causes and how do you avoid that? [42:36] I mean, an airplane like this, there's... [42:39] tens of thousands of individual parts on the plane. [42:43] 80% of the parts, if they're broken... [42:46] The plane's down. You can't fly. [42:48] So there is like 20% of them that we get exceptions that we can fly. [42:52] certain amount of flights until it can get fixed. [42:55] But... [42:56] Almost the vast majority of the parts on this plane, if they fail, if these components fail... [43:02] Plains Grounded [43:03] And sometimes, like we were talking earlier about the supply chain, [43:07] um in this industry because of all the demand of all the aircraft coming in these manufacturers are trying to build as many airplanes as they can as quickly as possible and their priority [43:15] is. [43:16] the newer airplanes that they can sell [43:19] to brand new customers, right? So their priority is not supporting the existing fleet. It's more on delivering as many new airplanes as quickly as possible. So... [43:28] You can sometimes find yourself down for several months.

[43:31] because of [43:32] A windshield that breaks. [43:34] We just replaced... [43:36] a lav panel for the toilet in the back of the plane. [43:39] $25,000. No. Yeah, just for like a little lav paddle. [43:43] Um, uh, [43:45] set of brakes on this aircraft, over $100,000. What is the deal with people talking about the [43:50] windows popping out. [43:52] What do you mean? [43:53] I've heard from a couple of people, like there were stories that the windows will pop out and people will... [43:59] get crushed lungs [44:01] I've never seen that. You've never heard that? No. [44:03] I've heard it. [44:04] And now they're making planes without windows. [44:06] Well, I think the plans without windows is actually a very interesting idea. And that has more to do with, like, the airframe shape, right? They're, like... [44:12] There's one company, I think, that's building a newer design. These airplanes are supposed to be more efficient. [44:20] I don't know much about it, but it sounds pretty interesting. And they're like, hey, I don't know why we use Windows. They can just do... [44:25] Screens on the side. [44:26] But I don't think that has to do with windows being crushed in. That's like not, like the whole fun about- Is looking outside, right? Is looking out the window. Like right now we're looking at like beautiful- [44:34] California. California. Best place on earth. There's farms down there. There's lots of mountains. [44:39] You can't see it, sorry, but it's beautiful. Yeah, I don't know. I think I would want to have windows in my plane. [44:44] seems to me like uh we'll have to put up a poll yeah how many people i would be curious to see what they're what people will [44:54] - So I wanna, I guess like this is an interesting point, 'cause you mentioned that there's gonna be a shortage [44:59] of planes and everything as more demand increases, right?

[45:04] As more demand increases, I assume all the prices are going to go up. [45:08] Behind the Plane is really just the beginning of the... [45:10] torture, right? It's everything that comes after buying the plane that really makes you [45:15] maybe regret your decision. So are you going to like, like are net jets, flex jets, are you, are like, is arrow, like, are they, they're just all going to increase their prices substantially? [45:25] Like, how does that work? [45:26] Yeah, I mean, I think we're already seeing, like, massive wait lists at these fractional programs. Like, the... [45:32] The line to get into an aircraft is... [45:37] maybe two, three years at a time. If you wanted to order a plane right now, a brand new plane from Bombardier, they'll probably take you three to four years until like, I think they're delivering now into 2030. [45:45] You can always find, you can actually buy [45:48] a slot from somebody. So somebody else who got, was in line, people are actually like reselling these slots. [45:53] because people want to play sooner. So there's already... [45:56] like a huge... [45:57] huge demand for these aircraft. [46:00] And we are seeing the market price of them trade a little higher. [46:03] over time. But again, like at the end of the day, they do depreciate. It's not, the aircraft are not like real estate, right? They do depreciate over time. [46:12] They get wear and tear, they get fatigue. And then at some point there's a newer airplane with a better [46:17] a better sound system or something that people like. - Zero. [46:23] Windows. Zero windows. Yeah, and... [46:26] Over time, the value of airplanes will go down. But we have been seeing in the last couple of years a very weird phenomenon where the price is like, we bought this airplane and now it's worth more than...

[46:34] Then we paid for it. Really? Yeah. Like almost $2 million more. What? Yeah. Yeah. [46:39] Why? [46:40] because there's such a lack of [46:43] supply of good airplanes. [46:45] That's crazy. Yes. Another thing that's worth talking about is like, [46:49] There's just... [46:49] Different types of aircraft are different. [46:51] Some are better than others, right? So like sometimes people think, okay, I'm going to buy this airplane. It's cheaper. [46:56] But [46:57] We're on like the challenger at 350. This is like. [47:00] One of the most sought after airplanes. This was the first airplane when I started my company seven years ago. I started with the Challenger 300 and we still have that Challenger in our fleet today flying just as much as it was flying back then. [47:11] Certain airplanes have better parts availability, better pilot training, engines, if you need to put on rental engines on the plane, [47:19] So it does matter what type of aircraft you buy, especially if you think you're going to start flying like heavy volume. [47:25] Have you seen people make the wrong decision in buying a plane by buying [47:29] buying too small of a plane? Like, at what point do you realize that [47:32] Yeah, so... [47:33] I know the trend now is buying heavy and buying really large, but do you see, like, [47:39] you obviously come across people extremely wealthy that probably buy, [47:44] tiny planes too. And you're like, what are you doing? So, so I, I know someone who, um, who just recently had a liquidity event. Um, [47:50] And he exited about $500 million. [47:53] And he decided first thing he's going to do is... [47:56] spend [47:57] 400K on a global 8,000 or 7,500. [48:00] charter to Europe. [48:02] And so he spent $400K, but $400K is still significantly less than $75 million, which is what it would cost to buy that plane, right? And he did a flight, and he's like, you know, that was nice, but I don't know if I need this airplane. Maybe I'll go one step down. So my advice to people is really...

[48:21] maybe charter a couple times [48:23] the plane you think you might want, [48:25] to see if it's really what you want because the cost [48:27] to have to [48:29] buy a plane and realize it's too small or too big [48:32] and then you have to sell it, it could be very expensive. It's much cheaper to charter a couple of times [48:38] See how it goes. [48:39] And then if you like it, [48:42] and you really want to buy the plan, you can buy the plan. We haven't talked about this yet, but it's a huge deal. It's actually a very big, beautiful deal, the big, beautiful bill. But can you talk about... I think they renamed it. Did they really? I think so. I don't know what they renamed it to. Well, that's what I know about. Yeah, yeah. But can you talk about how the government is now helping... [49:04] right off [49:05] Aviation. [49:07] It's really... [49:08] writing it off in a huge way. The Big Beautiful Bill is not the first time we've seen this. [49:14] In 2017... [49:16] Trump announced [49:17] the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which was the first bill that introduced [49:21] bonus appreciation. [49:23] And then it phased down over time. [49:25] And it was reintroduced. [49:28] in 2025 with the Big Beautiful Bill. [49:30] But essentially what bonus depreciation is, is it allows you, [49:33] to expense the entire... [49:36] value of the plane. [49:38] the year you buy it. [49:40] So if you buy a $10 million airplane, [49:42] You can take a $10 million dollar, [49:45] Business deduction. [49:47] the year you bought the plane, even if you financed [49:50] 80% of it's maybe you only put down

[49:52] $2 million on the airplane. [49:54] you get to take a $10 million expense in your business. And if you're in California and your income is... [49:59] 51%. [50:00] My ears popped. Yeah, we're in our descent to San Francisco. [50:05] If you're in California and you're paying... [50:07] 51% taxes, right? [50:10] Essentially, rather than paying the government, [50:12] $5 million in taxes, you can buy a $10 million airplane, [50:16] Put down 2 million. [50:18] reinvest the other three. [50:20] So this is, as you can imagine, a huge unlock for people. So this is why people are buying $75 million airplanes. That's exactly why people are buying $75 million. There's no other good reason. [50:28] That's amazing. Yeah. The only... [50:31] thing is that it does need to be [50:34] used in a true business purpose. [50:37] You have to have a defensible... [50:39] business purpose, [50:41] for the plane. And you have to use it [50:43] 51% or more... [50:46] business use now [50:49] This brings up a very interesting conversation. [50:51] Because... [50:52] Most of the liquidity and the wealth being created today, [50:56] specifically with a SpaceX IPO, right? And in the tech world, [50:59] is not from people who have businesses. [51:02] These are employees. [51:04] at companies [51:05] that have been working there their whole life [51:08] They skipped like five steps in the well. [51:10] in the wealth generation phase. [51:12] And now they want to start flying private, but they don't have a legitimate business. [51:16] to run their aircraft through, right? And on top of that, [51:20] Most of their wealth is in

[51:23] the stock market, which is capital tax capital gains, which [51:27] Even if you had a legitimate business purpose to write off a plane against, [51:33] You would only be writing off, if you write off your capital gains, [51:37] When you sell the plane... [51:39] you have to pay something called recapture. [51:43] And recapture is where you basically have to tell the government now, you [51:47] I sold the plane and repay the taxes. [51:50] on whatever he's held a claim for. [51:52] Because you told the government it was worth zero when you initially bought it. [51:56] Recapture is always [51:58] taxed at ordinary income rates. [52:01] So if you buy an airplane, [52:04] and try to offset capital gains. [52:07] Right. Which is like, well, let's say your SpaceX shares. [52:11] And then you sell it five years later. [52:13] and you recapture at ordinary income, [52:17] You're essentially taking a very high interest loan from the government. [52:22] You saved some tax today, but you paid way more taxes when you sold it. [52:25] So I think this is going to be a big headwind. [52:29] for this new... [52:31] this new generation of wealth [52:34] And [52:35] the current model, the traditional fractional ownership models, I think this is going to be a big headwind. [52:40] because the current structure does not quite [52:42] Sick. [52:44] this type of consumer. [52:46] What kind of background checks do you need to do with new clients, new flyers? [52:50] Well, whenever we fly someone on an airplane, they go through standard like TSA. We run their name against like the no fly list.

[52:57] Um, [52:59] If you're going to buy a plane, you're going to get a loan. There's going to be like KYC and AML. [53:04] So like standard, like no different than if you were opening a bank account. But that's really it. [53:09] Did you see the Mr. Beast winner? [53:13] Who got caught smuggling drugs on his plane? I think I saw that. That was pretty ridiculous. What? It was like, does anybody know? Was it on the plane that he won or was it on a different plane? I think it was on the plane that he won. Huh. [53:25] I would imagine. Yeah. [53:27] That's crazy. Well, like I said, when you buy an airplane... [53:30] Buying the plane is the cheapest part of the equation. You have to maintain it. So maybe he needed... [53:35] some cash flow to keep it going. Maybe that's what incentivized him to get the plane in the first place. I don't know. Maybe he had a big mission ahead of him, and it was his job to win the Mr. Beast contest in order to complete the mission. Yeah, I mean, like, every once in a while, you see these... [53:47] these things. But that was pretty crazy when I heard that story. Yeah, it was pretty wild. How long do you think it would take to sell a jet today? [53:55] I've seen... [53:57] That's... [53:58] as quick as one hour. [54:00] One hour? Yeah, there was a G650 that just sold in one hour. [54:03] To who? They hit the market and then it just sold an hour later. I have no idea. Where's the market? What's the market? Is there an auction? Is there like a Sotheby's for planes? There's like brokers and they talk to each other. [54:13] Yeah, so I mean, we're seeing stuff as short as one hour, and then sometimes if it's a bad airplane, it could take six months. [54:20] But it's a pretty liquid market today. [54:23] down. [54:24] Okay, I'm really curious about this. [54:26] I fly a lot

[54:28] Is it true that if you fly private, you have less jet lag? [54:32] I think the best benchmark [54:33] in the commercial space, [54:34] is that [54:35] Boeing 787. [54:37] And the Boeing 787 has a... [54:40] cabin altitude of just under 8,000 feet. [54:43] If you looked at the sort of the best example in the private jet market, like the global 7500, [54:49] that has a cabin altitude of about 3,100 feet. [54:53] What does that mean? So it means that the altitude that it feels like you're at when you're flying [54:59] is... [55:00] significantly lower, [55:02] Oh, wow. [55:03] than on the commercial airline, which makes a big difference for fatigue. [55:06] So I actually think [55:08] This is the one area that actually... [55:10] especially on long missions can make a very big difference. If you're going, if you're flying somewhere for a business meeting and, and you don't want to be groggy the whole day. And then on the way back, [55:20] uh, [55:21] uh having like a cab out and there's all sorts of cool things happening right now we're seeing airplanes that have like circadian rhythm lighting so they'll actually you you program the your destination and it'll figure out you know where you are where your destination is and it will change the lighting [55:35] careful lighting around [55:37] the time of day so that you can adjust your body. So maybe we don't need windows on aircraft as long as the, as long as the lighting adjusts. But yeah, there's all sorts of interesting things that could happen that do, do, [55:46] make a difference on long trips, especially if you're flying a lot and you're [55:50] high function person, like, [55:52] Elon Musk or Jensen, [55:53] And you need to be places. I genuinely, like, I get jet lag from flying...

[55:58] LA to New York. I did it back to back for two weeks. And then after that, I was like, I need an IV. Yeah. And then I ended up in the hospital. You do a life lap? [56:07] Sometimes. Yeah. If I can afford it. But what is surprising to me is I will get so jet lag from that. Doing that. [56:16] twice a week, and then sometimes I'll go to San Francisco in between, and then... [56:21] I'm completely dead. And then you see videos of Jensen Long. He's in San Francisco one day. He's in... [56:27] Taiwan the next. He's in China. He's in DC. Like he is all over the place. [56:32] It's crazy. What is the secret? Well, I mean, I think he's an incredible [56:36] He's an incredible entrepreneur and founder and business leader. But no, I think you're obviously running a business and you can see the difference between like losing days, right? And I think that's why private innovation is really such a tool that allows you to do so much more and unlock so much more and like... [56:52] really unlock, like save days, like full days that otherwise you would have been like sleeping or, or groggy because like, because, uh, [56:59] You got stuck in the system. It's really like a [57:02] an incredible... [57:05] I think in some ways, non-negotiable tool. [57:07] Today's episode is sponsored by VCX by Fundrise, the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. [57:17] Learn more at GetVCX.com. [57:21] Some of you may not have heard this yet, but our sponsor Public just launched something called Generated Assets, and it brings AI into investing in a way I've honestly never seen before. Here's how it works. You type in an idea like AI-powered supply chain companies with positive free cash flow or defense tech companies growing revenue over 25% year over year. Public's AI then dispatches a swarm of agents that scan every single U.S. stock, evaluates them, and instantly builds a

[57:51] why each stock is included. And before you invest, you can even backtest your idea against the S&P 500, so you're making decisions with real context, not just guessing. And beyond generated assets, Public lets you invest in stocks [58:03] bonds, options, crypto, all in one place. They'll even give you an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments over from another platform. If you want to build a portfolio that actually reflects your thesis, visit public.com slash sorcery. [58:17] Paid for by public investing. Full disclosures in the description. [58:20] Enterprise AI runs on Merge, the AI infra platform for integrations, agent tooling, and model orchestration, so your teams ship product, not plumbing. [58:30] Mistral, Dropbox, and Drada already trust Merge in production. Start building at merge.dev. [58:36] Founders scale faster on Deal. Set up payroll for any country in minutes, hire anyone anywhere, get visas handled fast, and get back to building. Visit deal.com slash sorcery. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash sorcery. [58:52] So you're a pilot, you've been flying for over 10 years, you fly a lot, what are your biggest health hacks? [58:57] I don't know if I'm the healthiest pilot. [59:00] That's exactly what people want to hear. Well, I think flying around is not the healthiest thing in general. Flying so much, sitting in a chair for that long. [59:11] you know, like... [59:12] probably not good. So I don't fly that much anymore. Look, you're sitting in a chair flying a plane versus people sitting in a chair doing ad sales. I don't know. It's totally different. I guess it's true. But sometimes I think when you keep changing time zones, it really messes with you, right? You're going across the... You keep changing your circadian rhythm. You're flying coast to coast or across the Pacific. These things over time, they start to really...

[59:38] really, really mess with you. How do you stay hydrated? [59:41] I drink a lot of water. Just water? You don't add any fancy electrolytes? I don't know. Am I supposed to? Really? Yeah. Yeah, you're supposed to. That's like a whole thing. I didn't get all the tips. [59:51] Yeah, but no, it's wow, look at that. [59:56] I tell you, there's just nothing like California. I know, Brad. I wish you were getting B-roll. You got to get some B-roll of that mountain there. [1:00:02] We haven't covered this yet, but what are the hidden fees that people encounter when chartering? [1:00:07] This is like a whole episode. Really? Yes. Actually, why? Because I'm very passionate about it. Oh. The easy one is de-icing. So a lot of times, you know, when you fly charter, [1:00:16] Uh, if the plane has to de-ice, sometimes you don't even realize, maybe it wasn't even snowing, but the plane got in the night before and it snowed overnight. [1:00:23] And then before you got to the airport, they needed the ice. [1:00:25] sometimes that could be more than twice the cost of the actual flight itself. [1:00:29] Seriously? Yeah, we've seen it like [1:00:31] $24,000 de-ice bill in Aspen. [1:00:34] So de-icing is something that charter companies will typically pass along [1:00:39] to the broker, which will pass along to you. And it could be a surprise, because a couple weeks later, you get the bill. They're like, wait a minute, I thought I paid for this flight. And if you read the contract, specifically says they can pass it along. When you work with the fractionals, like NetJets, [1:00:51] FlexChat, right, typically they'll bake it into the price. [1:00:54] So they'll include it in the price, and they'll sort of absorb it across the system, and this way nobody gets any surprises. [1:01:01] The second one, and the one I'm much more passionate about, is the event fees. [1:01:08] Recently, we've seen a private equity come into the private aviation space. They bought they're buying these.

[1:01:13] FBOs. They're called FBOs. It's a fixed-based operator where you park the planes. People just sling that term around all the time. People just assume that you know. It's basically where the planes park overnight where people get on and off the airplanes. And [1:01:26] What the private equity companies have kind of realized is that, you know, they can't really adjust the fuel price so much because everybody knows what the fuel price should be. [1:01:33] based on oil prices, but [1:01:36] What they realize is that they have this monopoly on ramp space on the ground. [1:01:39] And their only way to really squeeze additional margin out of [1:01:42] out of these businesses is to sneak in these event fees. [1:01:46] And they've really, in the last year or two, gotten very egregious. [1:01:49] I mean, you'll see event fees for I saw an event fee for Harvard graduation. [1:01:55] Like that's not a special event. [1:01:57] Right? Like, [1:01:58] You don't need a special event fee for Harvard graduation. Of course, there's Super Bowl and there's like all those. And sometimes those can get ridiculous. They could be in the 20s or 30s or $40,000 just for a short slot to drop off or pick up. Again, another area where going fractional really helps because these companies, like they'll buy, they'll pre- [1:02:16] pre-commit [1:02:17] 500,000 square foot of RAM space, knowing that the masters are going to have [1:02:21] you know, [1:02:22] hundreds of arrivals. So it still costs you something, but it's [1:02:25] significantly less. But event fees is something that is really caught everybody by surprise. And I think there needs to be some correction where these businesses are significantly taking advantage of [1:02:37] of the art industry. What's the craziest thing that you've seen? [1:02:41] In terms of like a vet fees or anything?

[1:02:44] I had Kanye West fly with us and take a picture of my co-pilot shoes. [1:02:49] What? Walked into the cockpit, said, can I take a picture of your shoes? [1:02:52] is out. [1:02:53] how they modeled off the Yeezys? I guess so. Really? Yeah, I think he was wearing his big... [1:02:58] his big boots or whatever. [1:03:00] Yeah, so I mean, there's like, you know, we see some pretty crazy stuff. But I think for the most part, like... [1:03:07] We fly a lot of very normal people, like people who are just like, [1:03:10] live their life. They look at this as a way to [1:03:13] get more done, [1:03:15] And, um... [1:03:17] Um, [1:03:18] you know, [1:03:19] Typically like... [1:03:21] really like solid people, like solid experiences, nothing too crazy. What kind of safety protocol do you have to keep up with? And especially when people are looking at these planes or these different services, I think it's like NetJets that's never had a death. I mean, that's how they run like their marketing. Yeah, yeah. But like, [1:03:39] what should people be asking or, or, or kind of be, [1:03:43] comforted by [1:03:45] on safety standards. - And I think Warren Buffett said, like, you should spend every penny [1:03:52] you can on safety and then more. Right. Like there. So I think like the large providers understand the importance of safety. [1:04:00] And they run like very, very safe operations. [1:04:03] like they understand how much more scrutiny private aviation gets over commercial aviation. [1:04:08] And so like safety is like something that [1:04:11] is like, [1:04:12] ingrained in the DNA. [1:04:14] When you're chartering a plane,

[1:04:17] it's a little bit more difficult to discern what the safety standard of the plane that you're flying. [1:04:23] Like, you don't really know. If you looked at all the hours flown in 2025... [1:04:28] 35% were flown at the top five providers. [1:04:30] and then [1:04:32] All the rest was done with all the rest of the hours flown were like small charter operators that have five, 10 airplanes, maybe sometimes even three airplanes. So it's a very long tail of operators out there. When you're looking for a flight, you really don't know what you're getting. [1:04:44] So having a good broker is very important. Having a broker, a charter broker, not a sale broker, charter broker who, who, um, [1:04:51] knows the industry, who's visited these operators, they've gone to these like in the hangars and met the staff, the safety people. I think it's very important having a broker you can trust. [1:05:00] to help guide you, [1:05:02] There is some online data you can look up, like the FAA has... [1:05:05] has some guidance about [1:05:07] You can see like if the aircraft is on a 135 certificate, if it's like legal and charter legal. I think I saw Chamath Paliapatiya posted that he only flies on a plane with Argus Platinum. [1:05:19] Um, [1:05:20] So I'll talk a little bit about Argus. Argus is like a third-party... [1:05:23] safety rating that comes in and does like an audit. [1:05:27] it's really like a pay for play right like you basically pay them money and then they give you a certification [1:05:32] especially at their like gold rating. Their platinum rating is a little bit more of a in-depth. They come to your office, they do an audit. And I think that like, you know, certainly it's better than nothing, but I do think we need more [1:05:44] I do think we need a better system.

[1:05:48] I'll say I think we need a better system for helping unknown travelers, like from figuring out which aircraft are safer versus which aircraft are not. And I think that's a big gap right now in our industry. Do you have any particular flight options? [1:06:01] rules around safety like times you can fly in certain areas or like [1:06:06] sketchy, I don't know, Aspen, that airport is sketchy as hell. I don't like flying there. It's freaky. [1:06:12] Do you have any rules around locations like that? Or what's that one island in like St. Bart's like? [1:06:18] Yeah, yeah. So I don't think anybody really flies to St. Bar except for like the small little propeller airplanes. There's St. Martin, which is nearby. Aspen is a very tricky airport. And of course, it's a very popular airport people like to fly to. So I think our fifth busiest airport is Aspen. Really? Yeah, maybe sixth actually behind the white planes. So people fly to Aspen a lot. Aspen has its own unique tricky airport. [1:06:41] set of constraints [1:06:43] We don't fly into Aspen at night. [1:06:45] We won't do it. Okay. Yeah, we're like not even allowed to, like even if you want to. You shouldn't be falling into asthma tonight. There's no good reason to do that. [1:06:53] Telluride is another airport that we have some restrictions around. [1:06:57] Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of them out there. Jackson Hole, Wyoming, Sun Valley. [1:07:03] So there's certain airports that we have an extra set of standards that our pilots operate by. Our pilots use something called a GOM, a general operations manual, which is like basically where they have the rules of what they can and can't do within our company. And we have very strict rules about certain airports.

[1:07:20] Sounds like mountains are a big issue. Mountains are a big issue. Mountains and airplanes aren't very friendly with each other. So you mentioned busy airports. So what are the busiest airports that you guys run out of? I mean, New York, of course, is the busiest. Teterboro is like where everybody's coming in and out of from a charter perspective. I think like maybe Miami. [1:07:37] which is where our main maintenance hangar is and our home base is, is probably our second busiest airport. [1:07:43] Van Nuys where we took off today is our third busiest. [1:07:45] we have a lot of demand out of LA [1:07:48] San Francisco, [1:07:49] White Plains, then Aspen. [1:07:51] San Francisco is about to get a lot busier. About to get a lot busier. A lot busier. Yeah. [1:07:55] What do you think that pass-off is going to be like? I'm so curious. Are you getting a lot of demand from people in San Francisco? Have they been reaching out yet? Yeah. They are flying to San Jose. [1:08:05] Flying San Jose a lot, Oakland, San Francisco, Florida. [1:08:09] A lot of people go into Hawaii from there. [1:08:11] I guess like far enough away. [1:08:14] to vacation, but [1:08:17] San Francisco is... [1:08:19] I would say five years ago was probably not even in our top 10. [1:08:24] By the way, we are landing right now, and I really just wanted to keep on rolling because I wanted to see if Brett could handle this. Right now we have two cameras set up, and we're about to touch the ground. What do you think is going to happen? Brett's got a big smile. [1:08:39] Yeah. [1:08:39] *sniff* [1:08:41] Well, [1:08:42] Voila! Well, we haven't hit it yet. [1:08:44] So, there we go. We have just touched down in San Francisco.

[1:08:50] Brett is still standing. There's a little bit of shaking. But overall, I think you can see it was a pretty smooth landing. We don't have Navy pilots over here. This was a great flight. This was a great flight and a great conversation. The best part about living in California and living in L.A. and coming up to San Francisco for work all the time is it is literally... [1:09:08] The most gorgeous flight ever. There's nothing like it. I try to fly around the sunrise and sunset because you get the real view. Although in the foggy season, you can't really see much and it's scary. I hate flying in zero visibility. [1:09:20] I don't know how pilots do it. It doesn't make any sense to me. [1:09:23] Someone very wise once told me that every day in California is a happy day. [1:09:26] You could live here, yeah. [1:09:29] Every day. It's a choice. Unfortunately, taxes are brutal, but it's really pretty. [1:09:36] Might be worth it, but who am I to say? So I think like after everything we talked about today, one of the biggest takeaways I got from you is that flying private is utility. You save time. You get more hours in the day. We're seeing so many things. [1:09:51] hardcore work maxing types of cultures here in San Francisco too. It's not just nine, nine, six, but it's like 24 seven. So, [1:10:00] Elon Musk does this. He doesn't even have a time zone. That's what Ashley Vance said. So what's your view on... [1:10:06] where you think work's going to go with all these liquidity events and, [1:10:10] Do you think people are going to work harder or less? [1:10:12] I think like [1:10:14] Certain people will, it's like in their DNA, they will always work harder. [1:10:18] And I think that you're going to see like certain people, especially the people today that are like building, continue to build.

[1:10:25] And for them, like having [1:10:27] the ability to do be in multiple places in one day that like that's going to be [1:10:31] extremely important. Having Starlink, we talked about having Starlink on board, I think that's going to be extremely important, right, to be able to be, like, connected the entire way, and, but I think, like, I think certain people are not going to work, but I think, [1:10:43] It would seem to me that the people... And they don't get the tax write-offs. [1:10:46] End of the tax write-offs. I think we're going to see the people who are working hard today will work even harder and will be able to do even more. [1:10:52] You're seeing that with your clients. Yes. With Starlink too. With Starlink too. Okay. So as we close out, thank you so much for everything in the flight up to San Francisco. If people want to reach you, how should they get in touch? [1:11:04] You can come to our website, flycraft.com. [1:11:07] you can reach out that way. [1:11:08] Please don't take my L.A. to SF flights. I would like them. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Izzy. I will see you on the way back. Okay. All right. So we're now here in San Francisco. We flew all the way from L.A., [1:11:20] And I have Izzy with me and Captain Roz. Okay, so Captain Roz was kind enough to fly as captain. [1:11:28] How did you get your pilot's license? [1:11:30] I started flying in the Air Force. [1:11:32] Um, [1:11:34] starting the Flight Academy. [1:11:36] Most of my training there. [1:11:38] And then I... [1:11:41] went to a different role in the Air Force. [1:11:44] But I always knew I wanted to be a pilot, so... [1:11:47] Finishing the military service, I went straight to flight school. [1:11:50] Got my... [1:11:52] Civilian licenses started as a private pilot.

[1:11:55] That's where everybody starts. It was just for fun back then. [1:11:58] Um, [1:11:59] And then eventually... [1:12:01] I decided to make this a career. [1:12:03] So I went back to flight school, professional training, [1:12:06] And, uh... [1:12:09] I made it to here. [1:12:12] Anybody's dream job, really. [1:12:14] And, um, [1:12:16] It's the best office view I can ask for. [1:12:19] And that's really the reason why I like doing it. [1:12:21] Every time I'm in the air, it's like meditation for me. What's the longest flight you have flown? [1:12:27] Longest flight, um... [1:12:31] We go coast to coast quite often. [1:12:33] The longest that I have flown was probably Hawaii to the East Coast, so... [1:12:38] was about nine hours of flight [1:12:40] Um, you, [1:12:41] Challenging. Do you get cramps in your legs? [1:12:44] You get up. [1:12:45] So... [1:12:47] These size of airplanes, you always have at least two pilots in the cockpit. So every once in a while you can... [1:12:52] Get up, stretch your feet, go to the restroom if you need a break. [1:12:56] maybe nibble on something just to get your blood flowing. It's actually very important to do so on the long legs. [1:13:03] Because the cockpit can get a little cramped, yes. [1:13:06] But we try to also interact with our passengers. [1:13:10] Which is... [1:13:10] A whole... [1:13:11] different aspect of being a corporate pilot. [1:13:14] Which is very nice. So I asked Izzy what his health hack is when flying so much. [1:13:21] How do you avoid jet lag and how do you not get dehydrated? What's yours? Drink a lot of water during and before flights.

[1:13:29] And, uh... [1:13:31] Lotion. [1:13:32] A lot of lotion. The air can get pretty dry up there. [1:13:35] Jet lag? [1:13:37] It's a challenge. [1:13:40] Pilots work by Zulu time, right? So international coordinated time. [1:13:45] You just... [1:13:45] Get your breakfast, lunch, dinner, according to that clock. So it doesn't matter on which coast you're in. [1:13:51] Um, [1:13:52] You just... [1:13:53] Get your schedule. [1:13:55] Because you can find yourself on the East Coast and then the next day on the West Coast and then even Alaska or Hawaii. [1:14:01] You feel it. [1:14:03] It'd be quite challenging. It is challenging, mostly for my wife. When I get back home on the East Coast, [1:14:09] I'm jet lagged. [1:14:10] She doesn't like it, but it's part of the job. [1:14:13] So there's a hot take. [1:14:15] And it's with flight attendants. I want to ask you both... [1:14:19] Do you need flight attendants on private aviation? [1:14:23] So it really depends on the customer's preference. This plane is totally certified to fly without one. [1:14:30] and we usually don't have a flight attendant, [1:14:32] But as soon as we get up, [1:14:34] to altitude away from the ground, [1:14:36] we're pretty much free, right? So we have three pilots on this plane, a captain, a first officer, and an autopilot. [1:14:42] As soon as we're [1:14:45] not task saturated, one of us can get out. [1:14:48] and the passengers should never feel that they don't have a flight attendant. We cater, we make drinks, we clean. [1:14:54] We entertain them. [1:14:56] Everything that a flight attendant will do, [1:14:59] We do the same.

[1:15:00] What do you think? I mean, that's exactly right. And I think that what we found... [1:15:04] is that most of our customers actually prefer not to have a flight attendant. We've had times where we've offered them for free. Hey, we have a flight attendant on board. And they're like, no, we prefer not to have one. People want privacy. People like to just have their own space. [1:15:15] part of Flying Private, part of the convenience of Flying Private is just having [1:15:19] having your own space, being able to just kind of [1:15:21] uh, uh, [1:15:22] be in your own element, you know, and move at your own rhythm. And I think having a flight attendant is meant to just fall off a paid down. [1:15:31] JSX. JSX. That's JSX landing right there. Yeah, so I think people just don't, people prefer, like, quiet. So that's, I think, what we see a lot. Some aircraft, like the bigger aircraft, are required to have flight attendant. So above a certain number of, like, seats on board, [1:15:45] For safety reasons, you have to have flight attendants to have, like, emergency exit training and stuff like that. Also, like, when you do long flights, making beds, meals, you know, it's nice to have, but... [1:15:54] 90% of the missions we have, people prefer no fight than it. [1:15:57] I'm really curious for both of your answers on this. I think I know your answer for sure. But what is the favorite type of plane that you've flown? [1:16:05] I never had a bad plane. Okay. I like them all. Single engine props. I still tend to fly them quite often. [1:16:14] just to keep the scales sharp. [1:16:16] Um, [1:16:18] This is an amazing plane. I owe my career to it. It will take you far and wide and also to places where [1:16:25] you really can't go with anything else. [1:16:28] It's great. It will go coast to coast. It will go into the mountains. It will go in the islands.

[1:16:34] This is the plane I like the most and I have my most experience on it. [1:16:38] And it has two of everything, so it's super safe. [1:16:41] Two of everything. If something fails... [1:16:44] we can get safely anywhere, [1:16:47] No problem if we're flying over mountains, over water. [1:16:50] This plane is super redundant. [1:16:53] They made over a thousand of these, which is... [1:16:56] tremendous in airplane terms. It's it's [1:16:59] crazy popular. Everywhere we go, there's at least another one parking right next to us. [1:17:04] So, [1:17:05] It's a really good plane. [1:17:07] What do you think people should look for when they're chartering or buying planes? [1:17:12] Thank you. [1:17:13] There is a lot of technical stuff. [1:17:15] But when you charter, [1:17:17] Small details. I like to say that [1:17:21] When you go to a restroom at a restaurant, [1:17:23] If the restroom is not clean, the kitchen isn't clean. [1:17:26] So if the planes look good and they're tidy and they're clean, [1:17:29] You can count on the people in the cockpit. That's a very good point. Like, you know, a lot of times when you go on a charter, you'll open the drawers and stuff. You should do this on your next flight. You open the drawers and stuff, and you just see, like, it looks like a Walmart super center. There's just, like, you know, like, there's just, like, every type of snack there, and, like, there's just no, there's no, like, rhyme or rhythm. There's nothing, there's nothing, you know, people just kind of, it's just, like, a complete disaster. If you look at our plate, you'll just see everything is super clean, everything's itemized. [1:17:53] it tells you a lot about the company behind the scenes that's running it based on like how the drawers look. And so it's like something that we've been really drilling in our, in our, [1:18:02] our crew for a very long time [1:18:04] So what is your favorite type of plane to fly? Well, you said you think you can guess. So what would you guess? The Sirius.

[1:18:08] There you go. [1:18:10] Well, I've had a difficult time since I've had a year ago. I mean, I flew the Gulfstream G550. It's an American-built airplane. You could tell it's American-built. It's like driving a GMC. Oh, no. Everything is just so big. Everything is like the throttle lever is like this big. It's like, you know, everything is just like... [1:18:23] they have double, they have quadruple for everything. So I really love that airplane. The Challenger is just an amazing airplane. I mean, this was my first real jet I ever flew. And it's such a capable mission-oriented airplane, but there's nothing like taking them a small little Cirrus and [1:18:38] flying around the mountains and [1:18:39] um, [1:18:41] going to small little airports and [1:18:43] You know, there's nothing like really getting to experience and enjoy flying. You know, in these airplanes, you don't really enjoy flying as much because it's very, very process oriented. You get in the cockpit and they have a there's a script and a checklist and you file the flight plan. The autopilot fly most of the time. [1:18:56] It's very, very like, you know, not very manual. You don't really get to enjoy flying. Okay, so we're on the tarmac. [1:19:04] What is the most challenging... [1:19:07] plane to fly what is the most difficult one challenging yeah i would guess uh a tailwind tailwheel sorry [1:19:15] Um... [1:19:15] A plane that has, this is a tricycle, so it has one gear in the front and two in the back. [1:19:21] Uh, [1:19:23] other [1:19:23] Most small airplanes, they have the one gear in the back, and that's very challenging, especially during taxi and landings. [1:19:31] I don't have much experience on them, but I've tried it a few times. It is very challenging. By the way, I could tell when we landed that you were in Air Force.

[1:19:40] pilot. Was it a good landing? Yeah, it was great. Not Navy. It was great. I mean, we have it on film. We can show you. Couldn't even feel it. But I mean, we were joking because there is a certain... [1:19:51] I'm not gonna name names, but there is a certain airline around here [1:19:54] that is a Navy landing every single time. [1:19:57] It is so hard. It's called professionally firm. [1:20:02] Professionally firm. [1:20:03] What do you think is the most challenging? To fly? Yeah. [1:20:07] Um... [1:20:07] I don't know, I flew on like a G-150 once. [1:20:11] They're pretty old. That was a pretty old airplane. I was like, I didn't fly it, but I saw the pilots flying in. It looked like they were sweating. Would I do anything else? [1:20:18] No. [1:20:20] I wouldn't do anything else. Really? Yeah, it is challenging. [1:20:23] It's being a lot outside of the house, on the road. You get to learn how to live out of a suitcase, a small carry-on. [1:20:32] But it's always dynamic. It's always new places, new cultures. I've flown... [1:20:39] this to Sao Paulo, Brazil, and I've flown it to Nome, Alaska. You do have to make stops, sometimes for other considerations. Like, we could make it. [1:20:48] But we really don't want to end up at the very far end of Alaska with minimum fuel. [1:20:53] So we take this into consideration, we made a stop on the way. [1:20:57] But this was one hell of an experience. [1:21:01] We saw polar bears there. It was pretty cool. Sam. Another area, by the way, that's quite crazy is the catering on airplanes. People order the airline catering.

[1:21:10] And it's, like, so expensive. Yeah. And it's, like, such bad food. Such bad food. Everybody just orders DoorDash. It's, like, way better. It is. You get, like, In-N-Out or you get, like, Chick-fil-A. Like, people just prefer that. Like, you'd be surprised if you think you're flying, you know, flying private is all about, like, you know, fancy dining. But there's nothing like a good Chick-fil-A. In-N-Out is always good. [1:21:30] Price the same, whether you take it on an airplane or in the car. That's funny. [1:21:35] And passengers love it. They really just don't care. [1:21:39] Okay, that's a good tip. Catering, don't do it. Don't do it. [1:21:42] Uber Eats or DoorDash? [1:21:45] Okay? [1:21:45] Well, thank you so much. Thank you for flying us today. You're very welcome. That was a lovely flight. [1:21:49] It's our pleasure always. [1:21:51] Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, Sorcery.vc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.