NBA Draft Questions, Harper vs. Fox, and the USMNT’s World Cup Ceiling

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[01:40] live for an hour and a half getting you ready for a big NBA week that's coming. Speaking of, Tim Legler is coming up in one second. We're going to be talking about the draft, what we learned from the finals, how does that help team building, predictions, all kinds of things. And then, [01:53] I've loved the World Cup. I've watched a ton of it. So I made Anthony DiBundo come on and we talked about USA's [02:00] semifinals chances, final eight chances, some sort of chances. [02:05] Things are better. Things are optimistic. A huge game coming on Friday. [02:08] I hope you're going to be out at a bar or somewhere fun watching it. But so we talked to the bundo and that is the podcast. We're going to take a break. [02:16] Pearl Jam, and then Tim Legler. [02:19] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [02:22] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet [02:29] could pull off moves like that. [02:31] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [02:38] Save offers before you check out. [02:40] earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [02:45] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [02:48] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [02:59] terms, and conditions.

[03:26] All right, so we're recording. [03:31] Epic time. Tim Legler is here. He did not join us during the finals because he was calling the finals. And we were coming... [03:36] Live after every finals game. [03:38] I want to, what's, [03:40] I want to do some draft NBA stuff. And then at the end of this, I want to talk about what it was like to be there for such crazy series. [03:46] I was so excited today. [03:48] I read that you're involved with the NBA draft this year for ESPN. I had this whole plan for stuff to talk about. [03:54] I didn't know you were prepped for the draft. This is unbelievable. Well, listen, to be full disclosure, I'm not fully. I still have a few days to get there because this was kind of also a late in the game ad for me to be part of it. I mean, it's fun. It's exciting. But at the same time, yeah, like there's a lot to acclimate yourself with. And I've been doing nothing, honestly, over the last couple of days but watching a lot of film on a lot of guys. I saw my new, seen enough of, kind of had a feel. [04:24] Guys, you know, to really get into the weeds, you need to see more film on guys. And then there was a bunch of other dudes when you start getting down, you know, anywhere from 10 through 30 because I'm just doing the first night. So, yeah, I'll be involved with the first round. So, like, you got a lot of catch up to do. So I'm kind of in the midst of doing that more or less. [04:42] I did the draft two years and I had an incredible amount of fun. [04:46] just diving a half hour on each guy and then basically making a decision on how I felt. [04:51] One of the drafts I had, Giannis, and I'm like, [04:55] I don't know, man. He looks pretty good, but it looked like he was playing against 13-year-olds. You know what? I'm going to tell you something, though. Here's the truth. You know the new thing, and I don't think this always was the case, but the new thing is with the draft is the player comps. Yep. Right? So drop a player name. And it's funny because I'm looking, and so in my research and in my film work, and I'm pulling different stuff up, and you're seeing different player comps dropped by whatever source. I'm not going to get into those, but whatever the source may be,

[05:25] Thank you. [05:25] And I'm just like, man, [05:27] I don't like these. I don't like the cops because I feel like I really feel like you're either. [05:34] As an analyst, you're either going way out on a limb, [05:37] Like, damn, man, that's a big reach because we have, you have no idea. [05:43] Ultimately, [05:43] how a guy is going to swim at the next level. [05:46] And a lot, there's a lot that goes into that, man, like fit early, just heart work ethic, handling pressure, maturity. And like, you can do all the homework you want. You don't know, man, until those guys put an NBA uniform on. So some of these comps, I'm going, wow, okay, that's a big bite. But then there's other guys I'll be like, oh, that's not fair enough to the guy. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think the comp is enough. So, and I feel like either way, five years from now, like you set yourself up to just get absolutely taken apart. [06:16] a cop out there of some guy that's like a perennial all-star and dudes bust. You're going to hear about that in a big way. I'm not a big fan of the cops. I have some bad news for you. [06:29] Bye. [06:30] I was the one, my draft, that was my big idea for the 2013 draft to do the players' comps. I'm Dr. Oppenheimer of this whole thing. Wait, are you the guy? I was. You're the guy? I was Dr. Oppenheimer. That was my big idea. I was like, each player will do a comp of whatever. And then the second year I did it, we blew it out even further. So you're that guy. I am. I started it. Oppenheimer in the movie, he stares off and he's seen math theorems and all that stuff. Yeah. You're seeing former players.

[06:59] Just bouncing around in your head. I thought it would be a good way for the audience to understand what they were doing. We did it for the Grantland Draft Guide. We did it for the Ringer Draft Guide. [07:08] It's, it's really hard because if you do the wrong comp or you, you don't put enough thought into it, it can go as sideways as possible. Have you changed your opinion then on, on, on like even giving the cops, like, you know where I've gone? Unless it's just blatantly obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [07:25] I rarely do. It's almost like there's pieces of different guys, right? Like when I watch Caleb Wilson... [07:32] And I just, his, you can watch 20 minutes of him on YouTube and, [07:36] think he's going to be one of the best 15 porters of all time. Just see the way it's edited. You're like, oh my god, this guy's Giannis crossed with Bam. [07:46] And the problem with this stuff is you're seeing like the absolute – [07:50] best of the best. It's the greatest hits of whatever the college season was, which is why you have to go watch the last five minutes of different games to really do this correctly. You got to see them in different presser situations. That's a great point. And the other thing is, [08:06] The guys that you're comparing them to when they get the comp, that's that guy at his very best. [08:13] And you're going, okay, with these guys, most of these guys are 19. Right. Like, man, you know, so whatever. If there's some things that are clearly obvious with their physical profile, [08:23] And maybe... [08:25] In addition to like, sort of like stylistically. Okay. But like, that's the problem I have is you start throwing out guys that are,

[08:32] You know, every year an All-Star, Hall of Famer, [08:35] all-league players from the past. I'm like, man, that's a lot. [08:39] for a dude that's 19 when you just go back and look at the last 15 years of the draft there's a lot of dudes that were picked in the top 10 and that you can't that had all kinds of comps from all-star players from the past yeah and a lot of those guys weren't even in the league in three or four years [08:55] With all that said, if you watch Darren Peterson's high school tape, he kind of looks like Kobe. Like, those are the comps where you're like... [09:02] And he kind of looks like Kobe. Like, like that's, I don't know. Is that a player comp or is that just what my eyes are telling me? I, uh, [09:10] I have gravitated. I've been fascinated by the draft my whole life. And even doing it those couple years was really helpful. But I've landed at the point... [09:19] I really value what I just watched in the playoffs. [09:22] when I think toward the draft. And that's where I've landed the last couple of years. And I feel like there's... [09:27] Basically like three buckets of players. [09:30] And... [09:31] I want to figure out, like, just the pure studs, right? The first four guys in this draft... [09:37] I think Flagg was like this. Dylan Harper was like, just like these guys are studs. They're going to make it. They're going to be at very least starters. They have all NBA potential. Like that's a bucket. [09:48] And then I think the next group for me is playoff guys. And playoff guys to me means wings that can... [09:54] defend and hit threes and not hurt you offensively, but can switch on defense and just can fit in a series. Bigs who can defend the rim and rebound and maybe even stretch the floor a little. And then guards that

[10:07] can give you offense and not kill you. Basically, those three buckets as playoff guys. And if you look at the draft last year, [10:14] Murray Boyles, I think, went, what did he go, nine or ten? [10:17] Yeah, 10th, I think. Maybe 10th. Coward went 9th. [10:21] Um, Carter Bryant, who I thought actually could have prayed probably a little more San Antonio 14th, but we're always taking these guards ahead of these guys. And sometimes I wonder like, [10:30] Is this just the undervalue over and over again every year? These guys that we know are going to be playoff guys, and yet they always go three, four, five picks too late. [10:38] Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. I also think that Carter Bryant's a fascinating guy to me. And I went to go back to like last summer. First time I saw him had seen a lot of film that I called his first game in Vegas. Yeah. In summer league. And I was like, this guy was he was so much more athletic than everybody else out there. Yeah. And he's so rangy and bouncy and like hyper energized. And I'm like, man, this is the type of dude. If he figures out how to shoot a little bit, this is the type of guy. [11:08] that you look at down the road for five years as like an elite player. [11:12] elite perimeter defender. And I still think he's got a chance to get there. And the good news for him, his perimeter shooting really came a long way this year. Now, you know, and Mitch Johnson clearly shrunk trust [11:24] a little bit once they got deeper into the postseason. And look, he did play in the one game we called, you know, against Jalen, three straight possessions. And Jalen Brunson just went right into the paint and just bodied him up and footworked him to death and made three straight buckets. And it was demoralizing probably for this young kid. But look, my point is,

[11:42] he's another dude that we didn't talk much about because we were spending so much time on Harper. [11:47] This is another guy they got that's going to be a big part of their future. There's no question in my mind. Yeah, and that's a guy that in a playoff series, he makes sense to me. [11:54] It's clearly like a four. He could guard different positions. So when I look at like Rez Johnson on Michigan, [12:01] And he's all over the place, right? Like he's, in our draft guide, he's 13. I've seen him in mock drafts. He's like, [12:07] 10 to 14. And yet he's the kind of guy like, okay, so you'll take him at 12. And he'd be like, of course, of course, of course they took him. That's going to be a, yeah. [12:15] Who it is. But let's do, we can talk about some of the neat stuff later. The top four is so much fun. [12:22] And I'm always a big... [12:24] Take the guy that you think is the best guy. [12:27] Like, figure it out. You have months and months to study these guys, how they would fit in with your team. Just go out on a limb and take your guy. This is one of the only times I ever remember looking at a top four like this and thinking, I'd kind of be okay trading down to four. [12:43] Like if I was Utah at two and I couldn't decide, it's like I might be okay moving backwards two spots. [12:48] and getting even more stuff if somebody was super excited about Peterson. But who's your favorite out of these four? [12:54] DeBonsa is my guy. DeBonsa is the guy. I believe that. I think that'll be the pick. That should be the pick. I think what we're hoping for, you know, is that he's enthused. [13:04] about the situation. I mean, he's hard to tell. He's very stoic. He actually came into the green room in, I think we're in San Antonio. [13:12] I don't remember what game during the finals. He happened to be there that day. They brought him in. I think his dad, they came in and we met him and talked to him a little bit. And I was joking. I'm like, hey, man, I give you good restaurants in Washington, but it's been 30 years since I played there, 26 years. So I think they probably changed. We had kind of had a joke about it.

[13:28] He's a very serious guy, man. And I'm just like, maybe that's just kind of how he's wired. Because I know a lot of people read into when the lottery happened and the Wizards got the first pick and he was there and they showed him and he just looked so serious, borderline unhappy. And I just was like, man, let's just give him a little bit of slack here. This is overwhelming to him. He has now gone from, you know, in the last two years, you think about you're trying to find your way as a high school player, hitting the AAU circuit, climbing the charts. [13:58] of number one pick in the draft. [14:00] going to a team that hasn't won a lot in a long time, it's a lot to process. And maybe people are viewing you a certain way. So I'm not going to read into that. He's the guy because I think what he could do from a skill standpoint combined with the physicality that he brings and some of those metrics, that combination and versatility in his game, I feel like [14:22] He's got a greater margin to find his lane because I'm not sure exactly what ultimately his ceiling is. But I think he does kind of like everything well. And he's very athletic and he's strong and he's tough and he seems serious about this. He's a worker. [14:40] He looks like a guy to me that like you go, okay, we bring him in because we think he's the best guy. Not exactly sure how we're going to plug him in, how we're going to use them, what his ultimate strength is primarily early offensively. It doesn't matter because there's a lot to work with. Yeah. I think for me, combination of size, [14:58] the toughness, athleticism with the skill set. I think this is the right pick.

[15:02] I landed there early February. [15:05] I watched these guys for a while, and at some point, it was like, what are we doing? He's got to be the first pick, especially because you don't know what his body's going to look like five years from now. He already looks like he's 26. [15:17] And you think about, you know, some of the guys like the Tatum, Jalen Brown, guys like that, how they grew into these adult bodies by the time they're 25, 26, 27, like the muscle he's going to put on. [15:28] You play their position. [15:30] By the way, Washington's taking him. That's how this is playing out. They're going to take him. For sure. And he joins a group. I mean, look at their roster and the number of top 10 picks on their roster. They've got a lot of lottery picks there. Fits in with what they have. Developing nicely. He does. And the one thing they don't have, though. [15:48] They do not have a face of the franchise type of guy. They don't. They've got some former number one pick or former lottery picks. [15:58] And like Sar be the top of those for me. Like he's grown tremendously. I really like his game. But this guy is different because of the nature of the position. This is a guy that you can put the ball in his hands in the open four in the half court. He can go get his own against guys. That's a lot harder for a guy as tall as Alex Sar. [16:18] handle to just go break a guy down. DeBonsa can do it. So they don't have this level of [16:25] of franchise guy even though they've got some really nice young players trey johnson was a guy i loved last year guys are walking bucket yeah but they don't have this this is a different level a guy that with that kind of size that can play off the dribble shoot it go get his own and break guys down they don't have that combination and is that a big spotlight on him for a while it's the

[16:49] You know, there's a piece of me wonders if Boozer also was the right pick for them. [16:53] Um, [16:54] And we always talk with the draft that you always hear, like floor, ceiling, floor, ceiling, high floor, low floor, high ceiling, lower ceiling. [17:03] And Boozer seems like he has both a high floor, but also potentially a high ceiling. [17:09] with his IQ and [17:11] He's just going to produce. I like that way. You put it that way, Bill, because we've seen too many guys in the playoffs, particularly the separation between floor and ceiling. The variance between floor and ceiling is too great. I don't feel like there's variance with him. Yeah, and the thing I don't like about him— [17:26] He didn't have that little foul line jumper. [17:29] I felt like he would be bowling his way to the basket over and over again when he really wanted to get points, which he could in college. And in the pros, you're not going to do that in the same way. [17:37] But this is the 19-year-old version of him. You think like these guys, I think he has the competitiveness and the work ethic. I think AJ has it. [17:47] I think Caleb Wilson definitely has it. [17:50] This was a comp, by the way, I did like. Can I tell you the comp I saw that I did kind of like? What was it? With Boozer. [17:58] It's Kevin Love. [18:00] I thought that was a pretty good comp. [18:02] think about Kevin Love at his best in Minnesota before he, you know, he went and, you know, sacrificed a lot to go win. But his first years in Minnesota, think about how productive he was because he's, you know, Boozer's not a guy that's going to play away athletically. He's more of a grounded game, but I think he's going to stretch his shooting out to be a really consistent, deep NBA shooter. He's already got good shooting range, but that's got to improve. Obviously, it's a huge thing, those extra three, four feet. Like you really have to put some time in. I think

[18:32] is his very Kevin Love-like. He's smart. He can outlet the ball quickly because he's got a high IQ off the glass. He gets it out of his hands quick to the guard. That's a Kevin Love trait too. So like, I don't love a lot of comps. I thought, yeah, Kevin Love. At first I saw it, it's like, let me think about that. And then I started watching more and more film on Boozer. I'm like, you know what? I don't mind that one. [18:51] I loved, like, heavier Kevin Love was one of my favorite rebounders of all time. When he had, like, the extra 20. You couldn't displace him. If he was down there, no. If he got position, it was game over. He wasn't going to jump over you at all. He just got his back on you, and you was done, man. One of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen, that earlier version of him. Like, if you think about, like, the great, great, great rebounders that I've seen in person, and I'm sure you played with and against some of these guys, but Moses was an all-timer. Yeah. [19:21] I wrote about this in my book. Moses had this trick where he would kind of go under the basket, almost out of bounds, and then he would just back in backwards, and then he would just be next to the rim tipping it in. Moses Barkley was incredible. Kevin Love was another one. Kevin Love also did very similarly to the big play in the game, what Mitchell Robinson did to Wemby on that big missed free throw, where they walk guys so deep they can't react to the ball. It gets beyond them. [19:51] Love and Love was great at that. I can see Boozer being that type of rebounder because they're not going to get those ones where you're going to run from point A to point B, cover 20 feet because you're tracking it with your eyes. And then you just go jump over two guys and get it. They're not going to get those kind. It's got to be done a little bit more with body positioning and then just IQ and just their sense and instincts for the ball.

[20:13] so high. So I think, I just think Boozer, to your point, floor is pretty high with him. I'd just be hard to imagine him not being a really impactful NBA player, even if he doesn't turn into a franchise guy, which all 40s top four, who knows, maybe they could. He might not, but his floor is so high. It's still, he's still going to be a really, really good NBA player. I think he's just going to be excellent. And I said this a week and a half ago, I think Utah is going to take them. [20:43] from watching how Danny Ainge treated the draft for the last 25 years, knowing some of the stuff that you need in Utah. They know his family, obviously, because his dad played there and his dad works for them. [20:56] to have a guy who could be this good who would also be like, yeah, I'm fired up to be in Utah. I think that matters. [21:02] And I'm not afraid of having him and, [21:05] I love him and Jaron Jackson together. To me, that's a combo that really makes sense. Whether Markkinen's there long-term or not, I don't know. [21:12] And then Kessler... [21:14] As another Schottbacher, he could play with him, too. I just... [21:17] I'm good with doubling down on size over taking Peterson and hoping last year... [21:23] was just a weird year and he's more like the high school Peterson versus the freshman year Peterson. I think Peterson is one of the toughest evaluations ever. [21:32] we've ever had with this. I don't know what to make of the fact that he got worse [21:36] in college than he was in high school and that he didn't seem as, he doesn't seem as twitchy. He doesn't seem as fast. Um, I don't understand it. I didn't understand the creatine thing. Like, what do you make of all this?

[21:48] First of all, I'm just going from the pure, because a lot of the stuff I don't think we have the answers to ourselves, but when you evaluate the guy physically and his tools, translate it to the next level. He's one of those guys. I watch him, some of the stuff I've watched, I'm like, man, that's NBA ready right now. The guy can flat out score. [22:18] couple of 20 year olds or whatever. He just looks so much more mature in his movements that it's, it's, it's, it's obvious how easy it's coming to him. Well, you can see it on defense too, where just the way he's able to navigate around screens and stuff. He's the highest possible level. [22:35] He's got control, man. But like I'm watching him. I've read stuff where he views himself and maybe some people are evaluating him as like a point guard. I don't see that. I don't see that. I mean, I think he's, to me, maybe a combo guard that, yeah, you can put him in ball screen. To me, I reserve the phrase point guard for like a different level of understanding of how you're organizing and how easily you're facilitating for other people because you're two steps ahead with any action you run. [23:05] already know two defenders away what that rotation is going to look like and you're now you know what the next pass is going to be and so you're processing all of that in real time i i don't see that when i watch him i see a guy that wants to go score and get his bucket and maybe yeah okay you can run ball screen with him because scorers in this league run ball screen but to use the term point guard like this is going to be a point guard one day that's going to be the guy that's like doing both making the game easy for everybody while he's also going out getting 20 25 a night

[23:35] And a guy that's super confident. I look at all that size up front already that Utah has. A lot of your points are good about Boozer. Like the fact, the connection to the organization, all that. Maybe that matters to them. Maybe it doesn't. And he definitely could play with Jaron Jackson Jr. And it's actually something Jaron Jackson Jr. needs. [23:48] is a guy next to him that can rebound the way Boozer can. Because he's not a big-time rebounder. He likes to block a lot of shots. He spends a lot of time on the perimeter offensively. He's a terrible rebounder. He's six a game. Yeah. Yeah. But to think, you know, they already have Kessler. They have Markin, who plays a lot of three. That's like another 6'10 and up guy to add to the mix to play, unless they had other plans for some of those guys and they want to move them. And, you know, that's kind of almost beyond my scope of what front offices think sometimes. [24:18] I look at Peterson, I think he's just a natural raw scorer. So you look at the top of the draft, first team that thinks they need that, that's who should take them. [24:26] I think he's a two-guard. I agree with you. I don't think he's a point guard. Although I do think that line has blurred over the years with the NBA where it's kind of like... [24:34] I don't think Shay's a point guard. [24:36] Right. But he... [24:38] is bringing the ball up a lot. But like you and I, we grew up with like point guards were actually point guards. They, their whole role was like table setter, almost like a host on a studio show or something. Their role is just to make everybody better. But in the guard position, there are exceptions to it. And you're right. It is blurred more than ever. [24:55] But there are exceptions to it for guys that are [24:58] So dominant. [25:00] Off ball. [25:01] I mean, off of off of their ball handling. They're so dominant that they're dictating terms of the defense all the time. And organically, shots are being created for people, even if it's not necessarily in their direct wheelhouse. I mean, like Steph Curry, be an example. Is he a natural point guard? No, he's a guy that created so much offense to his movement and shooting.

[25:20] And like the depths to which you had to go to guard him, he created offense just organically by being. [25:26] Like Shea with his dribble, Brunson even as a guy, is he a natural come down table setter? No, but he's so good at breaking you down. Organically, stuff is created around him. So you have to be on a certain level. If you're the lead guard, let's call it that because some people prefer that terminology. If you're the lead guard in the NBA and you want to be a contending team, you better be so damn good. [25:48] Because if it's not your natural thing to find, that you're creating better opportunities to find because you're so talented with the ball. I don't know if he's going to be there or not. It's way too early to know that. [26:00] It's the toughest one. [26:02] Because there's a, I mean, if you're going to say out of all these guys, who's going to haunt anyone that passes them up, it's probably this guy. [26:11] Because I think he has the highest ceiling of anyone. Like he, the high school stuff from a year ago, which I've talked about on previous episodes, is you're just like, oh my God, this... [26:20] This guy could be like the next guy. [26:22] You know, and I don't know what happened to him in Kansas. [26:25] I really get nervous with red flags before the draft, and I say that knowing that, [26:30] I have a 21-year-old and 18-year-old, and you watch kids change in real time every six months, every nine months. [26:37] all of a sudden you're like, wow, my daughter is completely different than she was six months ago. This is great. I can't believe it. It's like she's an adult. [26:46] So it's so hard. Very, very true. It's so hard to project this. No, no doubt. And it hits. All of a sudden, you're just kind of like, wow, that's nice. Right. And it's like a friend of mine told me one time.

[26:59] We're talking about this parenting stuff. And he said... [27:02] What you have to trust, like as a parent, is that you made those deposits a long time ago. Right. And so in one day, like, wow, it hits. And then you cash in. You're like, hey, it worked. They're a good human being. Like, you know, sometimes along the way, it's hard being a parent. But like, I think that's what it is. You just trust it. And then you're right with some of these players. [27:23] It's the same thing. This is so difficult, man, because of [27:27] The way that top picks are scrutinized is, [27:31] If there's even... [27:32] Any indication that, [27:34] that you whiffed. [27:35] Early. [27:36] It could be overbearing for the player. Risa Shea. In Atlanta. I think it's sunk him. [27:43] So I'm telling you, Markel Fultz is a guy that I was I was at the curry camp. [27:49] The top 30 camp. [27:51] the year that he was getting ready to go into his freshman year. And I was watching this guy and the Sixers had the first pick. And so all my friends are Sixers fans. And so I was like, man, I was out there in San Francisco. And I was, you know, I was working drills and doing stations and putting these guys through it, coached in the game. They have an all-star game at the end of the weekend. I coached in the game. Like Darius Garland was in that game. Like, and I'm like watching Markel Fultz. And I'm like, man, this dude. [28:13] This dude has it. He's got the size. He's got crazy bounce, way more bounce than he ever really even got to show to this point in his NBA career. I would watch him after practice. They would have dunk contests. [28:25] And I'm watching him with these guys and I'm like, this dude is big. He's like, [28:29] powerful he's got a shifty change of pace he's got a nasty step back which is required

[28:36] And he's got bounce too. So I'm like, man, and I think going to that market, [28:42] At that time, [28:43] with what the organization had already been through, was, I think, overwhelmed him. And he had injuries, too, that contributed to it. But I'm just saying, like, these are so important. They're so scrutinized. More than ever before, there's so much at stake for these organizations. And you're trying to determine this off a very limited sample size of work. [29:01] And you have no idea what this is going to look like. [29:03] at the NBA level. And you just pray that these guys want to put the work into the time, just the talent's there. And again, trust your deposits when you draft them. Put the deposits in now, five years from now, we hope this hits. Some guys obviously sooner than that, some guys never. That's kind of where we're at with these top six, seven, eight, nine, 10 picks. It's tough, man. [29:22] The only thing I've learned over the years, competitiveness, work ethic, [29:26] If that's in there, I like the top of the top. [29:30] you're starting out in good shape there, and then the durability injury stuff is the third piece, right? Foltz didn't have that. [29:38] Some guys come in and then you hear the first guy in the gym, last one to leave, all that shit. There's a reason those guys become successful. You did that finals with Brunson. [29:51] And then Brunson had that great interview after game five where he, where, you know, yet again, all of a sudden he scored a bunch of points in a row. And it was just like, I just go back to all the work I put in the gym over and over. I just pretend I'm in the gym. [30:03] Like, honestly, that's what that's what this is about. You can have as much talent as you want, but you still got to work at it. I look at Peter. I will say this one last one last quick on that. Like, but I do think in addition to the injury with Markel Fultz and whatever it was, it was a unique injury. They couldn't really get it. They couldn't get a handle. It was like a weird shoulder thing. Yeah, shoulder. And it changed completely changes mechanics into something that was unrecognizable. I'm just telling you, like being at a lot of those games.

[30:26] And in that building, [30:28] and being close and kind of just observing. I also think there was a component of it was tough for him being the number one pick, dealing with the injury. And then when he would go into the game when he was healthy, I think it was like a lot of feeling that. All eyeballs on number one pick, that market, that's tough, man. And I think it got to the point where like, [30:49] They went like, hey, TJ McConnell, we took him out of the rotation at one point completely just because we got to see if this guy can go. And after a period of time, they put TJ McConnell back in there and the crowd went crazy because it was like, we need a guy that can come out here and contribute for whatever reason he was. And I was so happy for him, actually, when he went to Orlando. He played pretty well when he first got there. And I'm like, man, hopefully he's going to end up having a long career as a productive NBA guard. But the number one pick that was difficult for him from the beginning, the injury on top of it made it impossible. [31:19] run like that. Pressure, big situations. He had some sort of weird foul shooting thing. Didn't seem like he liked basketball that much. [31:27] With the Peterson piece... [31:31] There's some weird agency stuff, too, where he's represented by team, which also is... [31:37] George's agency and that people think that's why they don't want him to go to Utah. Um, [31:43] So Memphis might be where he goes. I think Boozer is going to go to Utah, and I think Peterson will go to Memphis. But who the hell knows? And then let's take a break, and then we'll talk about Caleb Wilson. [31:54] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel.

[31:58] On the biggest stage in the world, FanDuel is changing the game. Because sometimes your player gets subbed off. [32:04] and your bet goes with them. Well, not anymore, and it's already cashed in a few times here. [32:10] during the tournament. With FanDuel SuperSub, if your player is subbed out, [32:14] your bet stays in. You just get the guy that's subbed in for him. That's right. If your player leaves the match, [32:19] Your bet continues on. [32:21] with the substitute. You just get that position for the whole match. So if you're still in it until the final whistle, you're still in it. [32:28] Because in matches like these, anything can happen. And now your bet can go the actual distance of the game. Let there be goals this summer. [32:36] On FanDuel, [32:38] Visit Fando.com slash BS. [32:41] to get started now. [32:42] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [32:56] All right, so if you were the consultant to the Wizards, [32:59] And they were like, hey, Tim, I know you do the ESPN games. [33:03] We're starting to laugh on the banter. [33:05] The owner saw... [33:07] this high school tournament where Peterson scored 48 and looked like he was the greatest player of all time. [33:14] Is Peterson going to come back to haunt us? What would you do if you were us? [33:17] You would just say, no, no, ride the course. [33:20] Just stay with the band so don't overthink it. [33:23] Yeah, 100%. You literally took words out of my mouth. [33:26] That would be what I would say. Don't overthink this.

[33:28] And it happens all the time. Don't ever think this. I don't have really any reservation whatsoever that the Bantz is going to be a star in the NBA. How long it takes? I don't know. Down the road. I mean, look, that's an organization that obviously, you know, I played at a long, long time ago. There hasn't been a lot of stability there for a long time. So like it's a situation, a bunch of young dudes. Now, look, you know, Trey Young saying, you know, opt out. I don't know what that means for them. Is Anthony Davis going to be bought into being there if Trey's not? [33:58] all these other young lottery picks. I doubt Anthony Davis is going to want to be part of that. So it's this young group of dudes, [34:05] All high picks trying to figure this out together. He becomes the face overnight. So there's certainly some, like, there's not pressure. [34:14] which is good for some young guys, but it's also like being part of something that's bigger in a winning culture. Like that's also good for players when they're young and they're drafted high. They don't have all that responsibility on them. So I don't know exactly what that situation is going to look like. But I have no reservation that he is going to stand out. Barring injury, I think A.J. DeBonson is going to be a star in this league. [34:38] We agree. That Trae Young thing I read as he opted out and he's going to get a longer deal for slightly less money. [34:45] Yeah, I read the same thing and we'll see. That's my interpretation. [34:49] I saw other things that were like, you know, he's relishing this opportunity kind of almost to like – [34:54] He's got something to prove. [34:56] and he thinks this might be a good situation for him to do that, they're going to love him there. I can tell you that. If he plays...

[35:02] And he does the things that Trey Young can do. He's a very entertaining player, a popular player. And he can put up some numbers. And he's going to have a lot of athletes around him playing off of him. So it could be a good situation for him. But to get inside the head of a Trey Young at this stage of his career, an Anthony Davis, good luck. I don't have enough expertise to know. [35:21] Yeah, I would assume Davis gets traded. Trey Young, if I'm his PR agent, I would be doing the whole... [35:28] Hey, Jalen Brunson, small guard, discounted. [35:32] Change teams, NBA title, champ. Why can't that be Trey Young? [35:37] Build the right team around Shreve. [35:39] Could be the Jalen thing. I don't think that will happen. Caleb Wilson, what were your thoughts? [35:43] Love them. [35:44] I love him, man. I'm excited about Caleb Wilson. And because look, there's a dynamic. Did I say Williams or Wilson? [35:51] You said Wilson, I think. I did? Okay. I wanted to make sure I never know about him. Caleb Wilson. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you said Caleb Wilson. Great. Love him because... [36:00] There's a lot of things I watch with him and he's got that [36:04] like eyes pop factors. [36:06] You're like, holy hell. And so now you look at the way the league is set up and some of the spacing that exists in that league and a guy that's got this kind of just explosive power. [36:20] Yeah, sign me up for that because I think anything else that you would want to look at his game and if you want to. [36:27] If you want to tighten up his handle, if you want to tighten up his shooting, particularly shooting off the dribble, I do think those are things that can be tightened up. It's not like for that, you either have it now or you don't.

[36:39] That's not the case. Guys add that stuff all the time in their first three, four years of their career. And then there's a whole other ceiling for them. [36:46] excuse me, as a scorer. [36:47] But that's what I'm talking about. [36:50] That stuff where he explodes off the floor like that? No, no. [36:54] That's not something you either have it or you don't. I mean, that is something you either have it or you don't. And he's got it. That's not, you're not adding that later, not that degree of pop. And that's what he's got off the floor. And it blows you away because you're like, you're picturing him in any sort of, of open floor situation or even offensive rebounding situations. And it gets a step on a guy like that is what, [37:16] big time explosive finishing ability looks like at the NBA level. The other stuff, [37:22] will come. I'm a huge, huge fan of his upside. [37:26] There's a relentlessness with him that almost guarantees he's going to be a really good NBA player. [37:32] He just really gives a shit. [37:34] The work ethic, the competitiveness he has. Like, he just has it. I... [37:39] To me, he's not like a runner jumper. I do think there's like some hoops IQ stuff in there. Like he seems like he'd be fun to play with. And I think if he was with the right... [37:48] kind of guard, point guard, who could be looking out for him and trying to set him up. [37:52] - You know, he's different 'cause Sean Kemp had a different body. [37:56] But when young Sean Kemp came into the league and you just saw people he was playing against, it was a lot of this, like, [38:02] People looking up as he's going over them for rebounds and dunks. There's going to be some of that. And then it'll come down to whether he can add a shot, which I'm not going to bet against anybody who's super competitive to eventually be able to add an 18 footer. Right. Kids 19. When he's 22, he's going to have an 18 footer. I'm not worried about it. And I've watched him shoot enough in game situations where you're like, okay, it's not like you're watching it going, oh man, you know, put a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen.

[38:32] on his release. It's not like that. I mean, I've seen guys with... [38:35] And it looks decent by the time he gets to the release point, it looks pretty good. There's a lot to work with there. I would be, [38:44] strongly considering taking him. I don't know what the Jazz are going to do. I don't know, again, because of how many bigs they have, I don't know if they just want the best available player and they don't care if it's another big or not. But if it is Peterson that goes to the Jazz because they just want that, another scorer, to go, you know, on the wing, then I would strongly consider taking Wilson a three. [39:05] So Danny, all bets are off because he famously was going to take Durant that one year if the Celtics got the first pick over Odin. And I think he was the only one who was going to do that. [39:16] I'd rarely say this. If I was Utah, I would try to flip with Chicago and pick up extra stuff and just take Wilson because he might end up being the best out of these four guys. I don't think there's any way to know. And I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Maybe Peterson if – [39:31] if last year the red flags kind of started to add up. But if you could move back, still get Caleb Wilson, and then pick up like the 15th from the Bulls and other stuff, like I would think about that. I think Wilson's going to be awesome. And we didn't even talk about this. [39:45] You're the fourth pick. [39:47] In a four-player draft, basically, before the drop-off. [39:51] Little chip on the old shoulder. [39:53] Oh, you didn't think I was the, you thought I was fourth out of four. Okay. I'm going to show you. And I was like those guys.

[40:02] Nothing like a competitive guy who got passed over. [40:06] I hear you. It's probably a lot of, you know, a lot of drummers that had, you know, a great solo career at some point, but they never got the credit being in that band. Right. That could be the case. So I think that is something, you know, that's how this has been framed for a while now that it's these four guys and then there's a drop off. I do like some other guys. [40:25] after that. Who's your next favorite? They're going [40:29] I love Mikel Brown. Oh, my God. That's my... I have... [40:34] I'm terrible at figuring out guys like him. Make the case. You don't like them. [40:38] it's my weakness with draft evaluation because he's a home run hitter. [40:44] He feels busty to me, but then he also feels like he could be a five-top-mile NBA guy. And I was like, those guys always scare me. [40:52] What do you like? I don't know, man. I just like the fact that he's just he's he's. [40:58] A polished, proven scorer. He can just flat-out score. He's got handle either direction. Some of the notes I wrote down, big-time threat every time he touches, scores at every level, explosive finisher, deep range, and a lot of potential to grow. He's got good size. He's not elite in terms of his size. Good enough size to get his own shot. And I've seen... [41:21] projections anywhere. I mean, he's anywhere of 7 to 10, like most of the ones I've seen. So he's going to go in that range. I think somebody's going to get themselves like a big-time NBA scorer down the road

[41:33] wherever he ends up going. [41:35] He's 6'3.5 without shoes. [41:38] Um, um, [41:39] He seems like to be the wild bearer. Fortunately, they don't play barefoot. Well, true. So put maybe 6'5.5 with Susan. There you go. He seems like his range is basically like 5 to 12, which is pretty – that's what's so funny about like once you get to that Clippers pick – [41:57] They don't need a guard, right? They don't need a point guard because they have Garland. They just made this trade for them. [42:02] And everybody seems to have Wagler and Acuff there. [42:06] Acuff's the guy I was just going to talk about. He's the other guy that is kind of right there in that territory. He's another guy that you look at, both Acuff and Brown, both of those guys, really flashy scores. They can go get their own, and in some ways, kind of similar in that regard. [42:23] Acuff's, I've noticed, seems to me like one of the biggest just consistent jumps up this board is, [42:31] basically over the last month or so it's just and to where i have i've seen a lot of them where he's going to be the fifth pick like he might be the next guy outside that top four i'd you know and that is that's the clippers with that pick so i don't i don't know where if he's going to go that high but to me he was a guy that during the season you come kind of paying attention i start to dive in after the season i start to look more out after tournaments over it feel i feel like to me he's like solidifying himself on a on a daily basis like he's going to be somewhere in there if he's [43:01] He's one of those first two or three after the top four. He was my crush guy in college. I really became infatuated with him, and so did my buddy House. We watched a lot of him, and then he had the run in the tournament. He's just – every game, he was 26 and 9 –

[43:17] 25 and 12 years. [43:19] 28 and 8. He's a great shooter. [43:23] He's... [43:24] He's like a pure old school guy. [43:27] Big guy gets the rebound, looks for him. Like he's like a real point guard. Give me the ball, I want the ball all the time. I'm good on fast breaks. [43:36] I think if you're going to take a guard that high... [43:39] who is clearly a smaller guard, [43:42] who's going to probably be not the greatest guy on defense. [43:45] you better think this guy's a home run. And I think he's that good. Like, I do think he's a rare that good. He's one of those guys we're talking about. That's his style. Some of the notes I just, real quick, I wrote down just great change of pace. Like, really keeps guys off balance. Explosive first and second dribbles, which is a big deal in the NBA. Like, that first one, a lot of guys had that first step. He's got one and two. That second gear, as he gets downhill, finishes with both hands really, really well. Like, so he can drive either way. [44:15] finishing, because he's probably learned to, because again, he's not 6'6", 6'7", coming out. She was in that 6'3", range. So he's had to learn how to be more creative with his finishing. He's a lead guard with outrageous potential. So he would be right there. He might be [44:29] Five like him and Brown, they're going to be right there in that category. [44:34] And Wagler is the other one that a lot of people have there. And Wagler is a tough one to me because... [44:40] We talk about like we were doing the comps before. [44:43] I look at Acuff and he just reminds me a lot of Kyrie. I think he's more of a point guard than Kyrie was, but his ability to finish with either hand, how he uses the stop and start stuff,

[44:54] how he gets somebody on his hip and carries them, sense of the moment. It's all stuff we saw with Kyrie. [44:59] And same thing, like Kyrie was, he might be maybe a half inch, inch bigger than him, but [45:04] Um, reminds me of, I don't know who Wagner reminds me of. I don't, [45:08] I don't know what the roadmap is for him. He's so unconventional. I don't think he had a dunk last year. [45:13] He doesn't finish at the rim. Everything's like this herky-jerky thing. [45:17] And that team was built around [45:20] Just what a unique player he was, but he wasn't a top, I don't even think he was top 100 or top 150 heading into college and had this meteoric rise. [45:29] But I don't know who he reminds me of. One of the things I love about him, because I'm always kind of really honed in on evaluating shooting mechanics and release and how that's going to translate. He's got tremendous extension. Believe it or not, a lot of guys make shots in college. And they're going to be drafted in these drafts. And they don't really extend on their finish. [45:49] And I think to myself, well, [45:51] It's fine when you feel you're the best player on the court. [45:54] and you're creating a little bit more space than you're going to create at the next level, you're just not going to be as consistent. Because I think if you don't have full extension now, that's going to shorten up even more as the windows shrink to get the shot off. And now you're just never going to be consistent. It's a lot of front rims. [46:10] wagler has tremendous extension like he gets full extension and it's quick he gets into his motion quick and he's got full extension elbow lock wrist lock at the same time i look for that kind of thing that that translates like this is who this guy is that's not going to change he doesn't need to work on that he's already got that he's coming to the league he can make shots now and then now he's climbing because people are looking at him as being more than that like he's more than a shot maker he can do some other things for you as well he's got you know

[46:39] Pretty good size as well. Better size than the two guys we were just talking about. And came through on a big stage, which isn't nothing. I really thought he got [46:47] In that tournament, him and Acuff both were... [46:49] Really great. Part of the problem with this is [46:52] So when you're starting with pick five, [46:55] Basically, the next four best guys are point guards. [46:59] who are smaller guards, because Flemings is the other one from Houston. [47:02] And as we know with the draft, [47:04] Not everyone needs a point guard. Like, first of all, we have a bunch of awesome point guards in the league already. [47:10] there's four more. It makes me think one of them's not going to make it. And then Burris, have you studied Burris at all? Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah. And then Burris is the one who is the best two guard available. [47:22] no question about it. The thing I love about him better than any of these guys, and he had to, cause he was more off ball than the other three guys. And I think we didn't mention Kingston Fleming. Is that the other guy you're talking about? You said the next three, you were talking about a cuff, [47:34] and brown [47:35] and wagler and flemings like those four guys those four guys so this guy yeah [47:39] Burries is more of like what I love about him. You can run pin down action for him. He comes off down screens and he's getting his hips turned and swiveling into the catch and it's gone quicker. So like that is like another element to use a guy like that. He can create offense off his motion because he's such a threat off down screens out to deep. He doesn't necessarily need to play with the ball first to get into his shot. I think some of the other guys we talked about, that's just more natural for them for that rhythm. They need the rhythm first.

[48:09] Thank you. [48:09] He's a guy that you can put off the ball. So maybe his usage isn't as high. Maybe he goes to a situation where he can't have high usage because of who they already have. But he could still go get shots up because he doesn't need a lot of time to do it. And he doesn't need a rhythm dribble or a live dribble to do it first. To me, the best of this group at that kind of stuff, getting his hips turned off a down screen and letting it fly from deep. [48:34] And he's going to be a really good defender. [48:36] Now he's a year older than some of these guys but was a big L.A. He won the high school state title here where he was like [48:46] the lead guard for that team. But I've said this, he's been my favorite guy out of the top four. [48:51] other than Acuff because... [48:54] Um, [48:55] A lot of the same reasons I led Castle two years ago. [48:59] Because he's on that great Arizona team, right? [49:02] They didn't really need a lot of what he, so he was just like, all right, well, [49:06] What do you need from me? All right, I'll do this, this. And he just kind of figured out how to fit in, hit a couple big threes when they needed them, played defense, do all the nitty-gritty stuff, which is exactly what Castle did at UConn. And then when Castle went to San Antonio, he was able to... [49:22] And I think Burris has that in him. He makes the most sense for the Clippers. [49:26] My question is, you don't necessarily need to take them at five. Could you trade back [49:31] Could he flip spots with the Kings? [49:34] who everybody thinks they want, Acuff. Could you flip spots with them, pick up one extra asset, and then take Burry's and

[49:40] at seven you'd have to i mean it's listen as we know all these guys were talking about that's beauty is in the eye of the beholder because i haven't personally a lot of the different mock drafts i've been studying and looking at haven't seen them really that high so you have to be just one of those things where what you see is like man what he does these particular specific things better than some of the guys we've talked about who like yeah man they got a lot of junk in their game they do a lot of stuff they're scorers natural [50:10] skill better to take him that high. Most of the ones, mock drafts I've looked at have not seen him as high as five. So I don't know where he ends up. But what do you do if you're the Clippers though? Because you have Kawhi who's going to be 35 next year. You have Garland who's your point guard. [50:24] And if you're taking another point guard, [50:27] you could talk yourself into it and just be like, look, we're going to be a little unconventional. We're going to have these two scoring guards and, [50:32] You know, we're not, there's going to be some bad stuff on defense, but that's why we have Ty Lue and a coaching staff. [50:38] I just find it hard to believe they're going to do that. [50:42] Which is why I feel like they're going to trade back and take Burris would be [50:46] There's one other trait I love. I got to throw this at you. [50:49] This is... [50:50] Just in general, something I've been watching. [50:53] And you didn't do the Western Conference for playoffs this year, right? Did you do the Eastern Conference? Yeah, you did the Eastern Conference. Yeah, you had the stinky sweep. We had the Knicks just treating people like a woodchip. Yeah, you had that one. [51:06] I don't know what happens with Wallace and OKC. [51:10] Where you have these, you have Shay and now you just gave Max's to Chet and you gave a Max to J-Dub.

[51:16] And you have Wallace, who after the season, it's very interesting. He had a little moment in a press conference where he was – [51:22] Basically, like... [51:24] It was interesting when I – he said something about when Shea was out during that stretch and Wallace had the ball. And you and I talked about this in a pod where it was like – I did a couple of games during that time. Yeah, there's a lot more with Wallace here that we didn't really get to see. Then the playoffs happened. Yeah. [51:37] He's back to 25 minutes a game. I mean, he averaged eight points a game this season, right? It's year three for him. [51:44] all right, well, what's he worth? Because you're talking extension now. After year three, you can extend the guy. And if I'm him, I'm like, [51:51] There's more here. I could be the lead guard. I'm one of the best defenders in the league. I'm a $30 million a year guy, and I don't think OKC is going to pay it. [51:59] So what about Wallace and the 12 for five? [52:04] Clippers get Wallace. They move back seven spots. OKC moves up to five. [52:10] Is that too much? You're outside the top four. I mean, look, I think... Is that too much to give up? [52:18] for that pick? For OKC, yeah. [52:22] How much do you like Wallace? [52:24] I like Wallace a lot, but they have, to me, in their system and the guys that they have, he's one of the better on-ball defenders in the NBA. And he did ramp his game up a little bit when he got more of an opportunity. But they've also got A.J. Mitchell sitting there. You and I love him, too. Yeah. Right. And he's a guy that's just much more dynamic offensively with what he can do. He hasn't even scratched the surface of how good he is going to be. So...

[52:51] I like him, but expendable, absolutely. And this was the problem all along for OKC. Well, not even a problem. It's a good problem to have. They want a title, and they had this perfect system, and they had a superstar, and then they had a couple, like two and three were really good players, and then they had a bunch of role players, interchangeable, a lot of nights, really deep. You're not going to be able to keep all those guys. You're just not going to be able to, and you're not going to need to because of who's at the top. You can find guys, I think, that can replicate what those guys do, maybe have a little bit more scoring punch to them. [53:21] look at what they went out and found in McCain, like that move to pick him up and what the offensive punchy game where he's playing heavier minutes than some of the guys we're talking about that were staples for this team for two years. And they picked him up midseason coming off an ACL injury because they identify it better than just about any organization. So [53:38] If they looked at that and said, you know what? [53:41] We're not, we think that we can move up and get the guy that we desperately need. We can replace a case in Wallace. [53:48] And then who knows at 12, man, if you can start getting down there, it's a crap shoot anyway. To go get the exact guy that they want, whoever that player may be? No, I don't necessarily think that is. But again, I don't know. Do they view any of those guys outside the top four as that? [54:02] I don't know. Cause that was, it's almost like a math problem. Like at some point, Wallace on a rookie contract is perfect. [54:10] But now with Wallace, with a contract looming, as you have to pay him basically as like not even better than a fourth guy. [54:17] Because he's probably worth like 25 to 30 on the open market with what his ceiling is.

[54:24] They can't pay that. And the whole point of having all of these picks and taking swings and grabbing McCain and locking down A.J. Mitchell to this great contract is that [54:33] you have to build this cheap apparatus around your three guys. You can't pay Wallace 30 million. So really, the time to trade is now. You got a billion dollars committed to the top three, something like that, right? Yeah, you can't. So you have to use him and move up. And maybe even then, if you have five, now maybe it's easier to try to even move up into that top four. But [54:56] I have Clipper season tickets. I want them [54:59] to at least be decent next year before aspiration annihilates them. But if they got Kaysom Wallace and then the 12th pick, I feel like they'd be better off. [55:08] But if they don't, [55:10] get into that situation where they're going to move that pick or whatever, which I thought there was no question they're going to listen to all that because they're not in the top four. And we think there is a difference there. That's – [55:22] Seems to be [55:23] you know, they see that a cost, the guy, like if that were the guy and they just looked at him, like he's better than everything else. And we think, no, I'm taking the best available player. I don't care that we have Garland and we've got guard, but I don't care because this guy, [55:35] ultimately is going to be a guy that can flat out play at the nba level and he can play quickly at that level [55:41] Maybe they hold it and they take that just to take the best available player. But they're like a veteran team. So it's like you don't know what their thinking is. They don't have time to develop guys. That's why Acuff doesn't make sense to me because you have Kawhi who's 35 and you're going to play him and Garland. I'm not winning the title with that as much as I like Acuff. Yeah.

[56:03] you have to trade Garland at that point. It just opens up these different, uh, [56:07] doors. They, what are you, [56:08] Did you study the center yet, Mara? [56:12] Yeah, I was just going to ask you about him because we didn't talk about any bigs really, like real centers. We talked about some bigger guys, but like he's different. [56:18] Um, [56:18] Here's the thing, man. I watch him. It's so hard for me because even like I go back to a guy like Edie, [56:23] And they're like a little bit different. And I looked at Zack Eady and I was like, [56:27] I don't, as dominant as he was in college, I don't know [56:30] how he's going to change into the floor at the NBA level. Like, it's a big deal. Like, he's lumbering up the floor. Now it was a turnover. Now you've got to get back and run. And, like, is he going to be too methodical to do anything offensively? He answered this question first. He leaned up. [56:44] He worked with their player performance team. [56:46] team and like even his running stride improved everything improved so it's like no this is fine he can keep up with this and actually do a lot of damage um offensively kind of stays in a limited lane but he's an effective NBA player so now look at Mara they're different body types they're a [57:05] Certainly the thing I like about him, I was like watching, like he's got a really, really good feel for like, [57:11] passing handoff game and he could find guys from the elbows he's he's just really clever with his passing he's thinking one step ahead it's another dimension to your team he's a really good room protector the guy's seven three so he's going to protect the rim and he moves well um you know guys like that there's going to be limitations there offensively you know unless he becomes a really good three-point shooter and then there's more opportunity for you there and even like a guy like Klingen is trying to do that in Portland like he's taking more threes because he knows if

[57:41] never ever get anything other than a rim run lob or offensive rebound so i better learn how to do it can mara do that can he extend out there he needs to i'm sure that's probably all he's doing this summer and trying to extend that range but i just like his feel for the game is his iq is touching his finesse with his passing i think that translates to a lot of different systems you can play him he's going to help make other guys better [58:03] And particularly if he learns how to shoot the basketball, he just has more upside. [58:06] Yeah. [58:07] I love the passing too. I like him in general. And at one point I was convinced he had to go in the top 10 because he's somebody I could just see in a playoff series. Then I did some more research. [58:20] The minutes really scare me with them. [58:22] So when he went to UCLA, which everybody agrees didn't go awesome. [58:27] He played basically 10 minutes a game and 13 minutes a game for them in the first two years. Then he went to Michigan. [58:33] He played 23.4 minutes a game last year. [58:38] If I'm using the eighth pick in the draft... [58:42] To me, that means like, oh, I can see he's going to be a big off-the-bench player. [58:47] Like, Edie played big minutes, had points, rebounds, and was a proven, like, you can actually put, now he got hurt in Memphis, but... [58:56] I just think top 10 is too high for him the more I look at it. [58:59] And maybe OKC can get him at 12, and that's a great pick for them. But this draft is so good. [59:04] And if I have a chance to get somebody like Burry's at eight or nine or Kingston Flemings, I can't take a guy who played 23 minutes a game last year.

[59:13] I just can't. No, it's a fair point. And I think just in general, you're just looking at him and you're going, well, there's other guys that I think you're just looking at offensive upside. You know, three, four years from now is so much greater. It can be hard to justify that unless you have glaring hole, like a glaring need. Like we do. We're so undersized up front. We don't like the bigs that we have. If it's so glaring and he's available and he's in that 10-ish range somewhere in there. OKC, 12. [59:40] That's the perfect one. You could take a flyer on him. Yeah, but I don't think Golden State can take him at 11 because... [59:47] They need athleticism. They need young guys. They need pop. They need somebody that [59:53] can kind of tilt their team a little bit. And we don't know what they're gonna do this summer with, [59:57] I still think LeBron's going there. Who knows? Who knows what they're capable of this summer? [1:00:02] But, [1:00:02] this is a luxury pick [1:00:05] I don't think this is somebody you can take in the top 10 with this many good players. And we didn't really talk about Flemings. I can't decide on him. [1:00:13] like what the ceiling is for him because he's not, it's not huge. [1:00:18] He's like 6'1". [1:00:20] He's fast as shit. [1:00:22] Uh, he's really competitive and he's a good defender. [1:00:25] Got some bounce. We've also seen those guys. People really regret taking those guys, like 7, 6, 8, these 6-1 guys that unless – [1:00:35] Unless you have a chance to be one of the eight best point guards in the league, it's just not worth the pick. I'd rather have somebody that I know can play big minutes. [1:00:43] Yeah, I think that that's, look, he's, I've seen him in the top 10, like the bottom two, closer to 10. I've seen him on a lot of draft boards. Like he's in that area. Some of the other guys I think are clearly more like polished right now. Acuff and Brown and guys like that. Wagler, I think are a little bit different category. He's an interesting one because you start getting to that pick and like, he's the next most talented guy on the board. And so I'm curious to see like how that ends up. I do like kind of like athletically the way he competes.

[1:01:13] He's going to be able to hold his own and hang athletically. It won't be a problem for him. He's right there. [1:01:19] Same category with those other guys. Atlanta at eight. I actually think point guard makes perfect sense for me for them. Sacramento desperately needs one at seven. [1:01:28] Brooklyn needs anything. And then Dallas at nine is a fun one because it seems like Kyrie is going to be back. They have flag. They have a bunch of expensive... [1:01:38] really polished swings, right? They're going to have Lively back. [1:01:41] to have Gafford, and everybody has Burries going there to them at nine, which makes a ton of sense to me, but [1:01:49] Um, [1:01:50] It's when we get to like 10, 11... [1:01:53] that range i think the draft gets [1:01:55] Burry's going there to me would be an ideal thing. [1:01:59] pick an ideal fit for him. It fits a need. They need guys that can shoot the ball off of guys they have now that can absolutely collapse the defense and break them down as primaries. To have a guy that you can plug in that's going to get clean looks and shoot him at a high rate, that makes a lot of sense. [1:02:17] Have you done Steinbach work yet? [1:02:20] uh did you Steinbach big big rebounder uh pick and roll guy like classic in the red spots yeah I got I wrote down for him very strong in the open court dude sort of bounce off him runs well athletic very very tough [1:02:35] Um, yeah, he's a guy, he's a guy that just kind of stood out just because of, he was just like, so physical. [1:02:42] and so strong the way he plays the open floor with dudes. He's just making space organically as he moves up the floor. Yeah, it's impressed, particularly just his competitive toughness. He seems...

[1:02:53] I'm not 100% sold on him because I just can't get the Spurs OKC and Spurs Knicks out of my brain. [1:03:00] I'm like, where would he have played in those series? [1:03:02] But he feels like a perfect Charlotte pick for 14. [1:03:06] This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. [1:03:23] There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. [1:03:28] It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone sharing what they know. [1:03:33] on TikTok. [1:03:34] This message is brought to you by Mariner. It takes the right team to help develop an athlete's talents. Managing your money works the same way. You ever thought, am I getting the most out of my financial plan? [1:03:44] You're ready for Mariner. With Mariner, you get an advisor backed by a full team of specialists. So everything's working together toward your goals. [1:03:51] Take the next step in your financial journey with Mariner. [1:03:54] Investment advisory services offered through Mariner LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. For more information, visit Mariner.com. [1:04:04] This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The T-Mobile Home Run Derby is right around the corner. Might be one of the best showcases of pure power in all sports. Baseball's [1:04:13] Biggest sluggers. [1:04:14] along with some legendary [1:04:16] announcers pujos rizzo bonds sabathia el duncan [1:04:21] Yeah. [1:04:22] Hunter Pence, Matt Faskersian, a whole bunch of people. And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact.

[1:04:29] You swing. [1:04:30] to make history. I'm interested to see what Bond says about this, actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park, [1:04:36] In Philly, watch the T-Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. [1:04:43] Alright, we've got to play quickly. [1:04:47] I think you listed all the favorites for the 2027 title. [1:04:50] And, uh, [1:04:52] And it's a good time to think about this because we're heading into trade season, the draft and free agency right now. So just quickly, Spurs are the favorites right now in Fando plus 250. [1:05:02] Um, [1:05:03] And their big question is the Keldon expiring, [1:05:07] And then they have 20 and 35, 40, 42. So they have stuff to move around and do stuff. [1:05:13] you were there. You were in the house for these games. Um, [1:05:18] They have Fox, whose extension hasn't even kicked in yet. You have [1:05:21] a bunch of Spurs fans like, let's get this guy the fuck out of there. It's Dylan Harper time. What do you do? What do you do with Fox? It's tough because his number is going to be big. I'm not, listen, I don't overreact to the extent that obviously a lot of people do, particularly Spurs fans right now, the way they're feeling about the series he had. Um, [1:05:38] It's a big moment specifically, but the guy can still play and he's going to be getting a big number. He still does add a dimension with his speed. He's a high caliber NBA guard that had a terrible finish to his season. I don't know that that's going to carry over. He wasn't 100 percent healthy. He'll get healthy over the summer. Nobody was really feeling this way about him most of the season. So it's a terrible way for him to end. He's going to be part of the mix here.

[1:06:08] And people that are watching the finals heard me repeatedly, particularly in the last game. How are you going five, six possessions in a row? And Dylan Harper is off the ball, kind of hanging out when he was by far, to me, the most comfortable player on the Spurs in that game. [1:06:23] And it just in general looks that way all the time. But think about the stakes in that game. You cannot keep this dude out of the paint with one defender. You just can't do it. His shooting's streaky. It'll get there, I think, Harper's. But the thing is, he can also make plays for people. He's a great defender. Is it time you go, that's our starters, and we're not going to start all three of these guys? Is Fox at that number something that's going to be smart to bring him off the bench and be more of like a second unit guy to go get his offense? [1:06:53] rather than continue to start him and bring Dylan Harper in, even though a lot of nights now you're playing him starters minutes. Doesn't make a lot of sense. So I don't know what exactly the solution is going to be. Clearly, this is Harper and Castle going forward, particularly – [1:07:06] the sooner that harper becomes a more reliable shooter because castle got better as the year went on he was over 40 after the all-star break it's still not his wheelhouse and he can be very streaky from there and harper can too that's tough and if you want fox a little bit more a little bit more consistent with his mid-range pull up even with his three-point shot most of the time certainly not there late for him but i don't know what the answer is i just know this is harper and castle is it next year the year after whenever is it going to be i don't think fox is going anywhere

[1:07:36] to wrap your head around it as a Spurs fan. [1:07:38] Could you feel it being that close sitting courtside? [1:07:42] Could you feel Fox starting to waver confidence-wise? [1:07:45] Yeah, I did. I think it was it was more than just whatever he was going through physically. There's no question. It's it got. Here's the thing I'll say about De'Aaron Fox. [1:07:54] I don't think I've ever seen him miss a... [1:07:57] as many makeable looks for him. It's not like this dude was getting draped because he couldn't separate because he was that injured. He was getting to his pull-up. [1:08:07] He was getting open three-point moves. Yeah, the little spin moves. [1:08:09] There's little spins that he likes to take. He was getting to that little quick pull up when he gets like a ball screen, like at 22 feet instead of 30. And he comes off and he just stops on a dime at 18 feet. I mean, his release was clean most of the time. And so that told me all I need to know. Like it's definitely in here. [1:08:31] He's feeling something and now string together with like bad performances. Now you start to overthink it. I got a lot of respect for the guy. He's unbelievably smart. He's a good teammate. Like we interviewed him a lot during the series. Guys just got a lot to say. That's meaningful as a leader. He had a terrible series, man. And he had some moments that were very difficult for Spurs fans to swallow. I get it. [1:08:54] You don't just put this guy out at the curb with the recycling can. Like, you know, you can't do it. But do you feel like a, I don't know, it's a small piece, medium piece or big piece of this. [1:09:05] is you have this fucking prodigy behind you.

[1:09:09] who deep down you probably know, even though he barely knows what he's doing, is probably better than your point guard. And you have that piece too, where it's every time this guy comes in, he's swinging the game. [1:09:19] Swinging the energy of it, getting to where he wants to go, and he's not scared. [1:09:24] And, and, [1:09:25] The fact that he played 31 minutes a game in that series and Fox played 36 – [1:09:31] That might have been the difference in the series. [1:09:34] If you flip the game one of that, [1:09:37] I don't know. After game one, Mitch Johnson admitted because they didn't remember that was mostly Fox in the fourth quarter. Harper didn't play much in that quarter. And he said basically, and he basically, Mitch Johnson owned it. And he said that was a mistake, man. You know, looking at he's a young coach, he's allowed to make mistakes. I like the fact that he kind of answered it that honestly. Yeah, I'd probably need to look at that. I didn't handle that well. [1:09:56] And then it was never going to be said, I was just probably not going to happen again going forward. [1:10:00] And what he ended up doing was playing them both together. [1:10:03] a lot in the fourth quarter. But the game five was kind of [1:10:08] Where I couldn't understand, I said it right on how many possessions in a row, probably in that broadcast. How is Dylan Harper right now off the ball? [1:10:18] Right. As you start your, why is he not the initiator of this? Why is Castle bringing the ball up? [1:10:24] well even Fox was doing it because Castle [1:10:29] Does find himself repeatedly like in foul trouble. I thought he looked absolutely exhausted in that game. He had a terrible shooting night himself. Didn't really impact the game offensively at all, which is rare for Castle because I love him. But it got to the point. It's okay.

[1:10:44] He looks gassed. He doesn't have it tonight. He's expended so much energy guarding Brunson. Maybe we got to go with Fox and Harper. Okay, cool. If you want to do that, go ahead. Harper needs to be the initiator because they hadn't figured out a way to keep this guy out of the lane. [1:10:58] And they just couldn't do it. And whatever it is, what it is. Here's the thing. [1:11:02] you're going to have these three guards next year. And I don't know exactly what the plan is going to be, because like you said, Fox is a big number and it kicks in. [1:11:11] harper is on a rookie deal palatable [1:11:14] But it's obvious to everybody what this guy is going to be. He's going to be one of the major forces at that position in the league. [1:11:22] Soon. [1:11:23] If not next year, the year after. So how do you handle that from a playing standpoint and a fit standpoint of who's on the court at the same time with Wemby as well? So it's a tough decision. I'm glad I don't have to make it. Harper is going to be the future. But Fox is a guy that's a big part of the mix, man. You can't just get rid of it. And a guy can still play. Trust me. [1:11:43] And Wemby will probably have a little say into this too. [1:11:48] I mean, Harper was... [1:11:52] I would take him over everybody in this draft. And I think this draft is better than last year's draft. But to me, he's like, [1:11:59] I think he has a chance to be one of the best guards ever. [1:12:02] of the last 30 years. Like, I really do. I think he's that good. Let me ask you something. I thought the stuff he was doing and how unafraid he was was nuts. Yeah. [1:12:10] It's a big statement. [1:12:11] And I like him so much, I think I probably would agree with you. But that's what I know now. So let me ask you. So like going back to before last year's draft.

[1:12:20] Did you feel that way about him then? Or are we so, everybody was so overshadowed by Cooper flag. It was like, we knew that was an one pick. [1:12:28] Or are you saying like kind of like what you know now about Dylan Harper and especially the way he grew late in the year? [1:12:35] Then you go, okay, kind of know now what this dude's ceiling is, and we might actually be underselling him. That's what I'm saying. Who knows? Yeah, because last year in the draft, the Rutgers season was so weird. I didn't know what to make of that. [1:12:46] It's like, all right, this team's going to have two of the top five picks. And they couldn't make a tournament. Like what? What happened? Then you watch the clips. But and we talked about him a few times when he came on my pod during the year. But I saw in the preseason, it was like, oh, my God. [1:13:00] what's going on with this guy? And then every time he would just jump out of the TV. [1:13:04] And he's got the thing that surprised me is this in this in this particular stage. [1:13:09] As much as I already kind of believed right there in front of my eyes, when I was watching a guy with the stakes that high, [1:13:18] With that much pressure, and if the game was so physical, you know, the way it was defended on both teams... [1:13:26] Like, [1:13:27] He didn't speed anything up when most guys that age get any daylight. You're going to rush it. Yeah, he missed the layup in game five. It wasn't because of that. [1:13:37] He just missed a shot. He didn't quite extend his arm fully. He missed a layup. That was a big play late in the game. But I'm not, you know, that wasn't because of stress or pressure or playing too fast. He could play as fast as he wanted. [1:13:49] as explosive as he wanted. And then when it came time to control his body and put English on the ball,

[1:13:55] even with a bunch of traffic at the rim, he was so far beyond his years and his ability to finish under those circumstances with English and reverse layups when you think there's no way he can extend and get there. And he made it look so routine that I was like, man, [1:14:13] It's amazing to me. This guy has arrived at this level this fast in his rookie year. He's like, okay, he's making a statement. Like this is kind of what it's going to look like for a while. And was getting big rebounds. [1:14:25] And I really liked his defense. I thought I loved how him and Castle, that's what made Brunson's series so crazy. I thought Castle and Harper defended him great. I loved everything they did. And Brunson just kind of solved it as the series went along and figured out how to score on him. [1:14:41] Bill, what he did, we haven't even talked about the finals, what Jalen Brunson did in Game 5? [1:14:46] against that level of individual defender in front of him. And by the way, it's not just Castle or Harper or, [1:14:53] Vassell [1:14:54] more than adequate. [1:14:57] Champagne can do a nice job [1:14:59] on him as well. And I know, by the way, if you get past all that, Wemby's back there. [1:15:05] To drop 45 points on them efficiently, [1:15:09] in something that important against that caliber defense, defense in front of you. It's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. And, um, [1:15:18] And again, he did it very matter of factly and very routine. [1:15:22] And he was so smart in the way he attacked and the way he kept guys off balance, including Wemby. A couple of times at the rim, we'd start stopping and Wemby would bump him and they couldn't couldn't gather to jump to go get it. And Brunson would just extend because he's not jumping very high and he's six two and he's just laying the ball in wherever he wants and shooting mid rangers like it was nothing. It was amazing, amazing, amazing to watch a guy with that kind of composure as a scorer.

[1:15:46] against that level of defender when he's not blowing by you or going over you in any way. [1:15:51] Yeah, I was... [1:15:53] So a Bucs fan friend of mine was like, well, you mentioned you said Brunson had one of the greatest finals performances. Like, why didn't you mention Giannis five years ago? And Giannis had that 50 point game in the closeout, which was a great game. [1:16:05] The difference with what Brunson did, [1:16:07] in game four and game five was the inevitability that you could feel with the scoring. I was texting Nick Franz, like, here comes Brunson. This is it. He's going to score. He's going to go in a heater right now. [1:16:20] And the Spurs, by game five, I feel like they kind of knew it too. And he broke their will in a different way. That's like that, you know, he's obviously not Michael Jordan. But there's very few players over the years that got to that break your will level. [1:16:33] And I do feel like he fucked with the Spurs. Like it was just over and over again. You fucked up again. [1:16:40] We're only down seven with eight minutes left. I'm going to score the next nine. It's just worth the level he got to. But to do it against that team, I thought... [1:16:48] I thought that was one of the most amazing things I've seen in the finals. It's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. I'm not going to waver from that. And it's because of, again, what was in front of him. As good as it might have looked to a lot of people on TV, in terms of the pressure on him with these defenders, trust me. Trust me sitting there watching it. [1:17:08] To watch guys that big and physical and the game was so physical and they're quicker than him. They're going to beat him to spots and they're taller than him and they're stronger than him.

[1:17:20] And he just did whatever he wanted to do. And it was, it was, it was mind blowing in the moment to be able to call that and to watch like that level of greatness. When you look at like the physical profile of the player. [1:17:33] And it's all just... [1:17:35] It's all just strength and balance and footwork and touch. [1:17:38] an IQ, and then the final component, which is really what separates him, [1:17:44] His what he is processing in the feeling in terms of pressure of the moment. It's not what other people are processing. He doesn't feel it. [1:17:53] It actually, in some ways, it actually increases his adrenaline in a good way in those moments. And there's been a lot of guys, obviously, over the course of the history of the league that also kind of fall into that category. [1:18:03] But in this series, it stood out so much from everyone else. [1:18:07] That he wasn't feeling what everybody else was feeling with this energy and these two buildings. And it was like the force and physicality of the defenses. And he's just like, no, I'm just going to kind of do my thing. And I know where I'm going to end up at the end of this possession. It'll be in a place that I like. [1:18:21] Not to mention he's carrying six generations of Knicks fans and 53 years of history. And just, I got a great... And like 35 former players like at every game. It was like incredible, man. I got a great email from a listener who was saying... [1:18:37] that it was almost like watching when they would talk about Prefontaine, Steve Prefontaine, the runner. [1:18:44] He would hang behind, hang behind, and then he would make his move. And everybody knew he was going to make his move. And he would just kind of wait. He'd let everybody run himself out.

[1:18:53] Like, okay, now I'm going to do it. And then everybody was running against... [1:18:57] would know that he was doing it, [1:18:59] And he would still do it. [1:19:00] And that's where the Knicks got with these comebacks. I've never seen a team more comfortable... [1:19:06] down 10, down 12, where you never felt like the game was going to get away from them. Usually when you're down 12 in the third quarter, you're like, fuck. [1:19:14] We give up one more three. This game's a wrap. [1:19:17] The Knicks kind of liked it. And they liked this come from behind thing where you could feel the momentum shift. And then, you know, we talked about Fox earlier, but the Spurs not having that settle down guy. [1:19:29] It just wasn't, you know, obviously Webby's not there yet. They just didn't have that one guy. Like, I got this, guys. I got this. They didn't have it. [1:19:37] That was my point on top of what you just said, which is so true about the comfortability factor for the Knicks. And part of that was because they were observing the uncomfortability factor on the other side in those moments because they didn't have a clear, defined identity offensively, either individually or collectively. And part of it is because these guys are growing as players. There are holes in their games. And I think I said a lot about it the other day on our All City pod. [1:20:07] Answer that going into next season. And how do you answer that? You answer that by dominating from 15 to 20 feet. That's the area of the floor that he doesn't really yet know how to fully utilize his shooting ability and length. And it's in a simple jab step. [1:20:22] A Dirk Nowitzki type of closing ability from that area of the floor. It's also hard to double team him from that area of the floor. He can play one dribble. He's at the rim from the top of the key easily with his length, but he doesn't really go there and catch the ball.

[1:20:36] He either... [1:20:37] Runs to the rim. [1:20:39] or he pops back behind the three. [1:20:41] those are the two things he does he doesn't really screen short roll and they hit him there not to mention such an easy target to hit on that short roll because you can throw it high he can just catch it up here even if there's traffic for the guard just throw it up he'll catch it and now he's got it one-on-one give him some room one strong side shooter and now let him practice that jab and get guys off him just a little bit boom make four or five of those jumpers a game couple swing through and goes and and i think the game will be easy for him because he didn't know [1:21:11] Oh. [1:21:12] in those game-defining, series-defining championships. He was 30 feet from the basket. [1:21:18] running pickerons with Fox. Yeah, I... [1:21:20] Well, I always thought that Duncan spot [1:21:23] That's where he has to figure out like 12 feet to the side, pick a side. [1:21:27] give your bank shot. You can swoop into the paint. That too. Dr. J. That too. [1:21:32] you're a lob threat from the side that's what he's got to figure out he doesn't have a spot it bothers me that he doesn't have a jump hook either I don't know why he doesn't have a little when's the last good reliable jump hook [1:21:45] I gave up when [1:21:48] When I would see seven footers come into the league with some skill and I'm like, how do you not? [1:21:53] practice like a two dribble to the middle jump hook over either shoulder al jefferson because it's damn near unstoppable al jefferson had a great one with his even his was more almost like it was like a little turn his full body it was a push right because his shoulders were square to the rim yeah yao ming had a decent little jump hook yao ming was was like he kind of mastered that duncan had one not to the extent that you would think yeah guys would and i think for for wendy

[1:22:18] I think that's not bad, man. Because look at some of the distances that Kareem shot him from. He doesn't have to be a five-foot shot. He might have a hard time getting guys that deep. So, okay, what if it's an eight, nine, ten-foot shot? [1:22:30] and it looks smooth, and you practice it enough, who's stopping it? [1:22:34] So I agree. Look, and I think this is what really, to me, separated the two teams. The Knicks going into game five, I said, had the most precarious 3-1 lead in the history of team sports because they they've been outscored 70 percent of the minutes in the series. They were they everything had gone right in these key moments that had to. So here you are. They're up 3-1. But man, it could easily been 3-1 the other way. We all know that. [1:22:59] The difference in this series was how these two teams managed the last five, six minutes of the game. Burrows were kind of looking around like, what are we going to do this time down the floor? Because all their best players... [1:23:09] have a little bit of a hole in their game. Too young. Not a good enough shooter, maybe, if you're Castle. Wendy, we just talked about, doesn't get those spots on the floor that are comfortable for him enough. Guess what? [1:23:18] Best learning lesson, losing that series. That's the best thing that could happen to them for long-term success here in the foreseeable future because they're going to remember how that felt and they're going to address that exact situation. [1:23:32] I 100% agree. [1:23:34] And yet... [1:23:36] I mean, that's one of the all-time squandered series. No doubt. I haven't forgotten. So many things happened in those five games. So many things happened. I forgot that Wemby missed an 18-footer just to win game one. That was a pretty open shot.

[1:23:52] You just go through that. Clean look. If you're a Spurs fan, you're just torturing yourself. Gone all summer. Even like that shot, I said, you know, even that. [1:24:00] They ran good action. It was him and Foxx. [1:24:04] Fox came off. They knew exactly what they wanted to get. High ball screen. They knew you're going to have to give some sort of help or Fox is going to walk into an 18-footer to win the game. So you knew the big was going to shade, which meant it's going right back to Wemby at the elbow. 18-footer. But the only thing I don't understand is this. [1:24:22] And Mitchell Robinson, they got a lot of credit for his contest. I don't really think it affected him. But why did you – why fall down backwards? [1:24:31] Like you're shooting a shot to win the game. - Right. - Stay on your feet, and stay with your extension. [1:24:38] Because he went Michael Jordan. [1:24:41] Just stay, nothing else, stay upright to give the ball the best chance to get over the front of the rim. Your momentum going back to that extent that you can't even stay upright, of course the ball is going to, it's possible to track that to the center of the rim. So that's even that. Again, it's youth. It's young. It's going through it for the first time. You know, figure out a way next time you're in a situation. Stay on your feet and shoot an 18-footer because there's not a person on the planet that's going to really be. [1:25:09] bother you on that contest if you stay upright well he asked us to figure out how to play more than 29 minutes a game [1:25:16] Because I think it's true. [1:25:18] 10 weeks, now he knows what that 10 weeks feels like from start to finish.

[1:25:24] And I just thought there were a couple of those fourth quarters where he was just [1:25:28] wobbling around. He made obviously the huge mental mistake at the end of game two. It's all part of the process. He's going to have to figure out [1:25:35] How do I ramp up to 37, 38 in the playoffs? And that's it. But it was game two. You know, you learn, learn. They got to learn from it. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do. Castle looks at him and then goes, oh, oh, you're going to bring it up? Okay, I'm out of here. And they all hit no weight. Hits him in the back. It's just because it was like they weren't completely in sync because they're so young. Yeah. Collectively so young. Don't bet on young teams. Now we know again. Yeah. [1:25:59] This is what we said all year. They're too young. [1:26:01] been there. It's like, I don't know. Here's the thing. It's what's scary for like, maybe the league is just the fact that, okay, yeah, they lost one series, but like, [1:26:09] Nothing will expedite their learning curve like that. [1:26:13] nothing, no way their season could have ended. Even losing game seven at Oklahoma City is not coming close to exploiting the learning curve. [1:26:20] with the way they navigated the ends of those games and knowing how tight they were, the margin for error was so slim. And the Knicks were making all the plays. They weren't making any of them. Nothing will expedite. [1:26:31] their growth more than the way that their season ended. [1:26:35] Before we go, where do you want Giannis to go? [1:26:39] Man. [1:26:42] Probably... [1:26:43] Golden State would be like, you know, hey, Golden State, are they even in this? [1:26:47] I don't know, but they always came up, Rihanna, over the last two years, and it was like,

[1:26:54] You'd love to see... [1:26:55] Curry, [1:26:57] Get something of that level here at the end of his career. That's why I said that. That's more like from just my heart standpoint, because I love watching Steph Curry so much. And I want a potential for like deeper playoff runs for him, not playing stuff where he's gone in a game or two. Or even if they make it out of that, what are they facing? A buzzsaw. So more help for him. [1:27:21] to give Steph Curry a greater chance to have meaningful series and playoff moments at the end of his career. I like that. [1:27:30] My guess is they end up with Anthony Davis. [1:27:34] concept. [1:27:36] I don't know why. [1:27:37] It's just in the back of my head. I've landed on, I don't want the Celtics to trade Jalen Brown for Giannis. [1:27:44] I felt that way the whole month, but the more I just, I can't [1:27:50] Can't get there. I also don't think Miami... [1:27:54] I don't like the trade for Milwaukee or Miami, that trade that everybody's been batting around. I actually don't like it for either team. [1:28:01] If I'm trading honest, I don't like what I'm getting back. I'm not getting one thing I can point at. [1:28:06] And if I'm Miami, I've traded all this stuff away so I can have Giannis and Bam, and I don't know where I'm going with that. Can I... [1:28:12] even win one playoff round, not to mention, [1:28:15] to Giannis, like how many more years? But then that scares me. It's just how many more years can he be elite when he's already been banged up? Let me ask you a question. [1:28:24] What percentage of the people that love the Celtics, right, fans –

[1:28:28] would agree with what you just said about [1:28:30] you're cool not getting him because you would probably go with Jalen Brown. People like the Jays. I would say it's probably like three, four Celtic fans would probably rather just not do anything and run it back with a healthy table. Here's the problem and here's the question. The Celtics should have to evaluate this. [1:28:49] You had Jalen get a taste of being the guy. [1:28:53] And now he has to go back to not being the guy. And once you have the taste of being the guy, can you go back? I think that would be the fear. [1:28:59] And maybe he just wants his own team. [1:29:01] He hasn't said anything. The Celtics haven't said anything. And, [1:29:05] Um, [1:29:06] I would much rather see those guys keep playing together. I don't even like that Clay's not on Golden State anymore. [1:29:13] I wish Clay and Draymond and Steph had just managed to, I know why they didn't, and I know it got acrimonious, but... [1:29:20] It's so rare for teams to stay together. I hear you, man. I hear you. They have it, and they're winning, and they're fun to watch. And us, guys like us that are watching this and analyzing it and have to do this every night and watch these teams, you're a fan of the group, the style, whatever. And it's like there's more there. There's more meat on the bone there. Why are we ending this now? I think for me, with the Jalen Brown stuff, I think it's a good point. I mean, and this is kind of how I felt during the year. [1:29:50] probably how I would process it if I were good enough to be Jalen Brown, I went through that would be. [1:29:55] Yeah, you know what? Bottom line is, man, like I got called I got I slid over one seat.

[1:30:00] And that's what it looks like. [1:30:02] But there's a hell of a lot that comes with that seat. [1:30:07] so like now he goes back and it's obviously I don't think anybody's good now it's more like Tatum's the guy Jalen Brown's a great great player [1:30:17] But at the same time, you say, okay, listen, I rang the bell, man. I validated [1:30:21] what my ceiling is, what I believe it is. And, [1:30:24] But it's OK here to be like 1A next to Jason Tatum, too, because Tatum is going to get ultimately most of that playoff pressure is more on his shoulders than anybody else. And so I do wonder how Jalen Brown feels about all that. Is it like he's like, no, no, hell with that. I don't ever want to go back. I want a team of my own. I know what I'm capable of doing and nothing's ever going to satisfy him again. Or is it? No, I like playing here. I like Boston. I like Jason Tatum. I showed what I could do when given the chance. [1:30:52] That's good enough for me. [1:30:53] If they were going to trade him, Milwaukee would not be my Jameland trade. [1:30:58] I would be looking at New Orleans or Atlanta and trying to, [1:31:02] especially in New Orleans. That's a trade that makes sense in my head, where you get Trey Murphy back, [1:31:07] Herb Jones, one more contract, maybe you get a pick, but [1:31:11] You're recreating... [1:31:13] basically a different version of what you had with Tatum and Brown, but your contracts are a little better and you get more flexibility. Like I'd be thinking that way. I'd, [1:31:21] To me, I don't... Do they win the title if they get Giannis? I just... [1:31:25] I don't know if that's the magic elixir, and I don't know physically where he is. [1:31:30] I would look at it if I were Boston like this, the way that the Knicks jumped on it and they played incredible basketball at the end of the year and they peaked at the right time. But you still have to go back and you have to be honest and just look at the Eastern Conference. The past...

[1:31:45] was cleared for them with the injury to Tatum. And, you know, that was like trying to figure that out late in the year. Know how LaBertin, obviously Pacers went there a year ago. Detroit doesn't have enough shooting yet. The Pistons, the Cavs are a team that's got, you know, they've got issues in the postseason, like handling that pressure. Phillies hurt all the time. So if I'm Boston, I'm just looking at it like, yeah, okay, the Knicks, to me, [1:32:07] I've seen a lot of lists out there where they put [1:32:10] OKC San Antonio 1-2 again. [1:32:12] in terms of league expectations to win it, Boston three, Knicks four. I mean, to me, the Knicks have the case to be made that they're going to run it back and win the Eastern Conference. I think they could absolutely make that case. But if I'm Boston, I'm not sitting here looking at any teams in the East and going, as currently constructed, without the Giannis trade, like we can't hang with those guys. So I think that's why the comfort zone comes from fans. We know what this looks like. And it's pretty damn close. [1:32:42] for an entire year coming off the injury rather than just a partial year? Yeah, we'll take our chances of that. Of course, you need to improve your roster. They're going to need to improve, and we'll see what ways they can do that. They have a $27 million trade exception. They have some [1:32:56] tradable smaller pieces. They'll be better than they were last year. Last year was [1:33:01] They always call it the quote unquote gap year. [1:33:03] But in some ways it was. They got rid of Howard and Porzingis and Simons. I'm putting the Knicks as the favorite right now to win the Eastern Conference. You should. I'm putting the Knicks as... [1:33:11] But it's amazing. I'm looking at stuff that's written out there. They're not doing that. I'm like, I don't get it, man. The way that they just played, and that last series was a grind it out. They fell behind it. They still found ways to win. But prior to that, they were playing damn near perfect basketball.

[1:33:27] And they end up winning a championship in five games against a team that won 62 games. [1:33:33] With that kind of young talent, like for me, the Knicks should be the team that's placed at the top of the pecking order in Eastern Conference going into the season. Now let's see what these other teams do to address their needs and close that gap. Brunson's the best player in the conference. [1:33:48] He is... [1:33:49] It wasn't just, oh, I had this great postseason. He's done this four years in a row now. He's averaging 29 points a game for four straight playoffs. Like, this is who he is. They have a team built around him. The only thing I would worry about with the Knicks is – [1:34:02] You know, Pat Riley called it the disease of more. [1:34:05] everybody's super unselfish when you're trying to win a title, you're doing everything, you put your ego aside, but now you won. [1:34:11] Um, Doc Rivers, I had Doc Rivers on the pod the other day and he, [1:34:15] He called it trophy tour syndrome. [1:34:17] You get your trophy for the day. You go back home. [1:34:20] every day with all your people and [1:34:23] Then you come back the next year and you're like, all right. [1:34:26] Now it's my time. And that's usually what happens with this, with champions. And that would be the fear. I'm going to tell you, though, I'm going to tell you, I don't think that's the makeup of this group of guys. And I've got to spend a lot of time around them, covering them all the way through the playoffs, basically, and certainly the finals. They just look like they're perfectly in sync with where they're slotted, each guy and what they're required to be.

[1:34:56] that they have settling things. [1:34:59] and will contribute to that heavily. And in some nights, one guy more than another. I don't think they're going to have that particular problem with this group. I just don't think that's the makeup of this team. I think you're right. [1:35:12] But [1:35:12] I'm not positive because this is the league we have. They asked that they're not going to be able to pay Mitch, I don't think. [1:35:18] Dolan basically said he's not going second apron. So Mitch is out. They're going to have to luck out with the 24th pick, get some sort of big man. But small problems. All right, Tim Legler. [1:35:28] uh have fun at the draft i'm excited for your player comps just rip them off like boom boom player comp boom player comp uh good to see you uh always a pleasure thanks for spending this season with us let's uh let's catch up when the smoke clears from the draft and free agency and see where everything's settled all those trades take play all that stuff can't wait we connect all right take care man [1:35:49] You got it. See you, Bill. [1:35:51] This episode is brought to you by State Farm. [1:35:54] Countless hours in the gym, a thousand shots before tip-off, day after day on the same court. [1:36:00] with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. The best players ever. [1:36:05] Put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote, [1:36:12] or reach out to a local agent. [1:36:14] State Farm is there to get to know you. [1:36:16] and help you select the right coverage that fits your life, [1:36:20] and your budget. [1:36:21] Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great, and that's why you want State Farm. [1:36:25] on your team.

[1:36:27] So get the coverage that's right for you. [1:36:29] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary. [1:36:35] by state. [1:36:37] This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, [1:36:42] Where I stay is so important. [1:36:44] I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying. [1:36:49] Um, in general, I don't go on the road that much, but when I go on the road, I'm, I'm, [1:36:53] I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. [1:36:57] If you sound like me, [1:36:59] Check out Holiday Inn. [1:37:00] It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refresh rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right. [1:37:10] with new drinks. [1:37:12] and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way [1:37:16] You were. [1:37:17] It's a new day. [1:37:19] and a new stay. Book now. [1:37:21] at HolidayInn.com. [1:37:23] All right, so we're recording this. It is Thursday afternoon Pacific time. There's still some World Cup games happening tonight, but we only care about the one by the time people hear this Friday. [1:37:34] America. [1:37:35] who looked awesome. [1:37:37] Really, truly awesome. [1:37:39] in the first match, and now Australia on Friday. It's a holiday. It's going to be a great day. Anthony DiBundo came on a couple weeks ago, and he reminded us, I was skeptical. I wasn't that excited about our chances, and you reminded us, hey, [1:37:53] We haven't really been healthy in four years. We have our guys. There is a path here. So you're watching that first half. What are you thinking?

[1:38:01] I didn't think it would go that well. I don't think even the most optimistic U.S. fan in the world thought that it would go as well, as dominant as the first half was. They made it look so easy. This is a country that usually struggles with Trinidad, that usually has had issues beating Panama over the last few years. And they're just washing away a pretty good South American team. So, I mean, it was the most exciting I've ever been. [1:38:31] All the 1v1 stuff... [1:38:33] A striker just like creating holy shit goals and then actually finishing the kick. It was unbelievable. And even Reyna comes in at the end, right? And the guy from... [1:38:45] from a few years ago where he became the polarizing, like, what? He became the big argument guy that did the documentary. It was barely covered. But even he had a moment, and he might have to have a moment in this Australia game because, of course, we can't have good things for that long. Pulisic is, who knows? When I see that training by myself, [1:39:07] um story that makes me nervous but he was so good in that first half we thought they took him out because they didn't want to get hurt in the second half that's what i thought too you soon paraguay would be doing uh okay we're down three nothing we're gonna start taking your guys out um but it turned out he was he was [1:39:23] Maybe a little hurt. So what are you thinking or how worried are you? [1:39:26] I'm definitely worried. I mean, there are only one or two players that the U.S. can't truly replace, and he's one of them. And it's funny because I was thinking today, okay, so if he doesn't start, who are the guys...

[1:39:39] that replaced him. And there is no like for like. I mean, in a perfect world, Gio Reyna can do a lot of the things, but Gio Reyna has barely played soccer for the last three years, and he has had some good moments for the U.S. men's national team, like that last-minute goal. But expecting him to just walk in and replace what Pulisic has done is just not realistic. Then it's like, well, maybe it's Berhalter, and they play a little more defensive. That's going to be divisive. Maybe it's Aronson, and they go for the pressing. [1:40:08] He's not very creative. So all of a sudden, all the excitement... [1:40:13] They don't really need ballistic, though. [1:40:15] For this. [1:40:16] specific game they do, but for the tournament, this is not their most important game anymore. They need to shift expectations and realize that [1:40:23] The later on games... [1:40:25] are what we really are playing for here. [1:40:27] Well, you know... [1:40:28] So they're going to probably do the park, the bus a little bit, right? Do some counters. [1:40:33] Australia? Yeah. [1:40:34] Try to do the one nothing final. [1:40:37] try to rope us. Their first win was like that. They didn't have the ball a ton. [1:40:42] But when they did have the ball, they made stuff happen. So that would be the recipe. You also have Seattle. [1:40:47] A great soccer city. [1:40:49] Yeah, everyone's going to be so fired up. It's a holiday. There's so many good things about this game and I [1:40:55] I don't know. I've just seen soccer games like this where it's like, oh, my God, we've had the ball. Oh, no. What's happening? Oh, my God. What did you think of Australia when you watched them that first game? [1:41:05] Yeah, I mean, it's a classic example of like, does this say more about Australia or more about Turkey? I mean, they sat very deep in a very compact block and just made Turkey send in prayer after prayer after prayer, cross after cross, long range. I mean, Turkey has a superstar player, Arda Gouler, who attempted seven shots, all of them from long range. None of them had a chance. They were really frustrating and really effective defensively. And in this system, in this tournament.

[1:41:33] Those kind of teams can be really freaking annoying to play against. But I do think the U.S., what they showed against Paraguay, shows me that they have new ideas for how to break down this system. But it is so reliant. [1:41:46] on Pulisic, on his ability to retain the ball in dangerous areas, his ability to keep possession in the penalty areas has always been his best skill. And now it's like, well, without him, who's going to be the man that beats the man? Is it Dest? Are they going to start Tim Weah? [1:42:00] Is it just Balogun kind of like muscling his way through Australians? Because they're a big bunch in the back too. [1:42:06] Yeah, Pulisic was so good in that first half, it almost seemed like we were going to get the rare first-half sub. [1:42:11] for their right back. We're going to get this guy out of here. It's getting torched. It felt that way. [1:42:16] And then he wasn't out there in the second half. So the two guys that make me nervous on our team, Dest, I just wish there was like slightly more there. I don't know. I felt like there was a lot on the table for him in the game I went to. And then Reams 38. Like Australia has a 20-year-old flyer who had a goal in their first game. And I just... [1:42:37] I just can't imagine that's not going to rear its ugly head at some point during the Cup. The fact that we feel like we're like a great defender short. [1:42:45] Right? [1:42:46] Probably, yes. And I think that's the big question that Paraguay and maybe even Australia aren't going to test. Tim Ream, for all of his now faults as a defender, is still very good at picking passes out going forward if you just let him... [1:43:00] stand there on the ball and ping passes all over. And he had seven long completions in the match against Paraglide, which is nuts.

[1:43:09] Australia will probably do a better job of marking Tim Ream. They'll probably do a better job of pressing him a little bit. Better teams will do a better job of that. That's where it's like, okay, can Tim Ream hold up when teams start to press more? That's going to be kind of the stress test that Paraguay just really never gave to the defense. I mean, they scored one goal off a set piece, but there was at no point any stress on this defense. So that's the big question mark. But I think that's why they're playing a back three. [1:43:39] Richards and Freeman, who cover a lot of ground and who are super smart guys, next to Reem, [1:43:43] You kind of cover for him as much as possible. Right. Uh, you know, and, and so you hide him. And then, you know, Jess is a funny guy because I love Serginio desk. I get why he's easy to be like, he's always in dangerous areas and he, [1:43:58] often screws it up but the fact that he's always in dangerous areas means you just cannot forget about him because he will show up in a big moment and create a chance or dribble past a guy and he really did dribble past players a lot in that game friday night it just the final touch was rough it was rough well the big question was what we got from richards and he was awesome in that game amazing and he passed basically he passed all the injury concerns that we had heading into the cup [1:44:24] Right in poor sec. [1:44:25] where it was because i did you see that that stat like he can what did he complete 83 of 83 yeah the soccer defender perfect game you never see that very often but he also he's such a badass the way he carries himself it's really funny he carries himself like he's like a ravens linebacker or something and he did have a header on a set piece too that came close to scoring right i mean he is such a i mean like we talk about you know the classic example of like what does it look like

[1:44:55] bigger and better talent. And like having a center back who starts every week on a good Premier League team, [1:45:01] Just ho-hum, goes about his business, nothing flashy. Like, those kind of players are what... It's not about having all the superstars in Europe. It's about having more of Chris Richards. [1:45:11] We get like three more Chris Richards across the line. And that's, you know, that's the perfect example. Well, it's almost like when like preparing for the NBA draft right now and doing my whole process and over and over again, you come to the same conclusion like four days before where. [1:45:24] You're like, you know what's really nice? [1:45:26] swingman who can defend and hit threes. [1:45:28] Yeah, it's just, you can't really go wrong with that. So like Merez Johnson now, the Michigan guy, and he's like, oh, he might go 15, 14. Like wherever he goes, somebody is going to be super happy with him because that's just the kind of guy that plays. And it's the same thing with soccer. There are these certain guys. With that said, Jedi is probably, he's another one that when you, in person, you're going [1:45:49] really feels like the atypical American, just like fucking freak athlete, flying. He's everywhere. He's everywhere. And look, I mean, like, I know the running joke is like, a lot of these guys were not developed in the US, Balogun, Robinson, Tillman, you know, like a lot of these guys were not, quote unquote, traditional homegrown players. And we could do a whole podcast on that. But like Jedi in the Premier League, [1:46:10] is consistently one of the most active, aggressive, all-over-the-place defenders on that left wing. I remember they played Liverpool two years ago, and he completely shut down a prime Mo Salah. And I was like, what am I watching? This is crazy. And then he also had 10 assists that year. I mean, he is a special player, and I think he'll be important because inevitably they're going to need more wide production if they don't have Pulisic in the middle. So Robinson and Dest become even more important than they were in the first match.

[1:46:40] Thank you. [1:46:40] Might be the most talented striker we've ever had. And I like Clint Dempsey, I think, was really reliable, good. I loved how tough he was. And he... [1:46:48] I thought was really important just for where U.S. soccer was and where it was trying to go. But this guy, this is different. [1:46:55] It's different. It's amazing. And, you know, the one thing with him has always been, and I remember, you know, when I first joined the Ringer Bill, we did the Copa America. Remember two summers ago when we were a disaster? Yeah. Yeah. [1:47:05] Baligan only played like half the minutes because he got hurt. [1:47:09] Thank you. [1:47:09] And even you texting our group chat, like, [1:47:12] Watch how he's moving. It's so different from how the other guys are moving around the pitch. And that's how you feel when you watch him. And no matter what his finishing has always been, he's always had the shots. And the analytics nerds and the scouts will always say, if you get the shots, we'll worry about the finishing later. Just get the shots. And his shot numbers have been amazing in France. And now he's carrying that into the US and two goals. I think he had four shots in the first game. So just amazing. Well, like you, all I've been doing is watching World Cup. I love it. [1:47:42] I love gambling on it. I just love that. There was that one game the other night that was on it, like, midnight Pacific time. That was amazing. [1:47:50] What was it? Jordan, Austria? Austria and Jordan. It was a really good game, though, for how late at night it was. You're just watching all these different guys, and the ones that jump out over and over again are like, [1:48:04] the left or right back that's just fucking flying up and down, constantly and never gets tired. Or like, you know, the forward who...

[1:48:12] He's just kind of hanging around. Then all of a sudden he's got that stop, start, boom. And that's what Balgan has. Like he... [1:48:18] It's kind of lurking, looking, boom, he's off. But then, and then on top of everything else, you get to watch what Messi did the other night. And it's like, oh yeah, that's, and that's the other version of the sport where he's just levitating above everybody. I mean, that was one of the great random sports experiences. I certainly wasn't expecting that. [1:48:34] that to be the highlight of the summer. But it was even up there with the finals games. That was unbelievable. You talking about Messi? The hat trick, yeah. Yeah. Just he played all the hits. Watching his son... [1:48:47] Yeah, he played my daughter whenever, you know, my daughter was always a striker. [1:48:53] And we always had this joke called Rufus Goals because our dog Rufus had died 10 years ago. [1:49:00] But if you put food on the [1:49:02] and the counter. [1:49:03] And if you left it for two seconds, he would just kind of sneak over and grab it and go. And so we always talk the same with soccer, like, [1:49:11] the best strikers, like, or best forwards, best anything, [1:49:15] They're always in the position to just kind of jump on the counter and grab a goal. And that second goal he had was my favorite one of the three. [1:49:21] Because he's just kind of over there. [1:49:24] He's reading, oh, this might be a rebound bounce, and he's already moving to where the bounce is, and nobody's even reacting yet. He's just putting it in. It's like the easiest goal he had, but he's just a second and a half ahead of where everyone else is mentally. And that's despite the fact that he just – it's so funny when they don't have the ball, right? When you watch him and you see him in the corner of the screen, and he's just walking around like it's a Sunday men's league.

[1:49:45] Like he's just trying to get his steps in. And then the minute he gets the ball calculating everything, he makes two little runs, one little dart, one dribble, one shot. And you're like, Oh shit. I mean, Argentina, Argentina, [1:49:57] in the first 28 minutes of that match, did not have a touch in the penalty area of Algeria. But they were up 1-0 because Messi's like, I don't need to go in the penalty area. I'll score from 25 yards out. Screw that. Why bother with that? And on top of it, like the... [1:50:11] I mean, the thing that makes the guys truly, truly great, no matter what sport you're talking about, is like, [1:50:16] It's performance. [1:50:18] But also like performance. It's the artistry of it. It's all these people in Kansas City. It's Mahomes in the luxury suite. And they're out there to see him, right? [1:50:26] And that's like almost drives him up to make him greater. Whereas like poor Ronaldo, right. [1:50:31] he's out there and you called it on the pod we did before the cup started, but it's like, [1:50:36] Yeah, this is... [1:50:37] Aaron Rodgers, Pittsburgh kind of territory, potentially. And it was worse than that because he cost them the game. I mean, he had... [1:50:45] I felt like opportunities that normal people would make at this level. And he just didn't cash in on any of them. [1:50:51] It's so funny because a lot of the people that are trying to defend Ronaldo are saying, well, it's not just his fault, right? The performance was bad all around. And their wingers have problems. Portugal has issues. But it's like what you said. [1:51:02] The best strikers always find ways to get shots, to get space, to make those little runs, those little movements where they can get separation and get shots off. That's just always been true. And that wasn't the case for Ronaldo yesterday against Congo. He was never able to separate. He's not running in behind. He's not coming short. He's not linking the play. It's like...

[1:51:24] Hopefully the cross finds his head because they had a lot of the ball, a whole lot with it. But I mean, you know, a couple of days ago when, when Mbappe scores twice, [1:51:34] And Holland scores twice and Messi scores three times all in one day. And then, like you said, we get the, the Austria Jordan midnight. I mean, it's one of the greatest days, um, [1:51:42] for stars in the history of the World Cup. And we get four games every day, and then pretty soon it's going to be six games a day for a few days. And you didn't even mention the England game. Kane was incredible in that game, doing these 40-yard... [1:51:54] fucking dart passes. I got to watch that one with CR. We were enjoying it. And then in the corner kicks for England, [1:52:01] I mean, I know that was the guy was on Arsenal. That was one of their calling cards, but. [1:52:05] Um, [1:52:06] Nothing really floats my boat. Just a great corner kick right in the box. A routine. They ran a pick and roll. Fucking boom. And the guys are wide open over and over again somehow. [1:52:16] And it's the most underrated part of this, but there's no, what else is like this? It's almost like maybe special teams in football or Belichick was trying to get like advantage with special teams. And it's, [1:52:26] this thing that it's like, oh yeah, and you should be good at special teams. And he's like, no, actually, we're going to flip games with special teams. That was one of the biggest reasons the 0-1 Patriots won. [1:52:35] And these corner kicks, free kicks, you see it over and over again in the World Cup. [1:52:39] the putting the ball in the box in the right areas and doing the little boxing out the keeper yeah it was john stones literally said if you go watch the replay that goal john stones is setting what would be called a moving screen right with the nba just so he can get cane free a little bit and all he needs is a couple yards one header to one uh it's so funny because i watched with the fozcast guys yeah ben foster and they're they're awesome and

[1:53:02] Getting into the psyche of the English fan, I mean, you were with CR, so how was CR feeling before the match? [1:53:08] I'm confident. Really? He's a little worried about the back three. Okay. But they have a lot of firepower. They do. They really do. They have all kinds of ways that they can create goals, and they're really fun to watch. I think... [1:53:20] If you're an England fan, it's weird to watch this team that can be kind of explosive, but they feel a little bit explosive. [1:53:27] Right? [1:53:27] So with the FOSCast guys, none of them were that confident. I talked to a random England fan outside of SoFi. He was like, yeah, you know, I think we can make the semis. I'm like, you don't think you can win? He goes, no. Like English fans, I think more than maybe any other fan base, and maybe because they've been so close yet so far, they just don't have – [1:53:45] the same level of irrational optimism about their team. So a lot of nervous energy. And then Kane misses the penalty, and they're all like, oh, shit, here we go again. I'm like, this is how it's going to go. The rarely seen callback. They nailed the goalkeeper. It never happens. He was about a half of a toe off the line. You can't get away with anything anymore. Yeah. [1:54:06] And then in the second half, they went for it. I mean, England fans have been crying out for this. They have so much talent. They play scared under Gareth Southgate. It's all like, defend the lead, defend the lead, defend the lead. And Tuchel went into halftime and said, F it. Like, we're going for this. What do we have to lose? And they came out and played an incredible second half. So I think England has vaulted themselves into the favorites conversation if they weren't already there. And I think them, Spain, and France are still a tier above. But maybe USA should be in that second tier. I don't know.

[1:54:36] I love the hockey line change for the forwards. It's one of my favorites. You can't do it if it's like a Premier League team, probably. But if it's the World Cup and you have... [1:54:45] a deep roster and a bunch of awesome guys. It's just kind of like, Hey, we're going, you guys go all out 20 last 20 minutes of the game. [1:54:53] And they were able to get one, but that was fun. Who was the best team? What's weird about the World Cup is like Paraguay might actually be good. We just got to go early on them, right? And their whole strategy is like, [1:55:04] They want it to be 0-0 after 70 minutes and... [1:55:08] And all of a sudden, they're on their heel. All of a sudden, it's 2-0, and their game's blowing up. I don't know if they're good or not. So we've only seen... [1:55:15] you know, 90 minutes of each of these teams, but who really jumped out to you? [1:55:19] uh france for the last half hour put together a they showed a ceiling that i don't think any team has uh and you know they made some tactical changes the first half was embarrassing uh they were terrible they michael elise who is one of the best players in the world was just kind of standing out on the wing all alone like hey hey guys i'm over here and then the coach was like all right let's move you centrally in the second half let's get you involved because you're our best passer and then the whole game changed i mean he's dribbling by past guys he makes the [1:55:49] goal he just changes the game and it's like well you know France you could do this from the first minute you could play like this all the time but Deschamps is like we like to defend we don't like to press well the halftime was funny Thierry on Ray at halftime was fucking sullen it's really interesting these halftime shows with the you know

[1:56:09] They just gravitate toward just famous guys from different countries. Oh, it's great. They're so bitter if it's 50 games. Well, we almost couldn't talk. [1:56:17] Zlatan might kill Lawless by the end of the tournament. I don't usually like to watch, but now I kind of feel like I have to watch because I never know when Zlatan's just going to start throwing haymakers at Lawless. It's been an interesting tournament for the Fox studio crew. If you watch the body language, and I've been on these shows, Zlatan is like... [1:56:40] You know, Lala's is here. Zlatan's like this, and it's almost like he's turning his back on him. It's really nuts. It really is. It seems like he despises them. Who knows? [1:56:50] And then Landon makes the comment, right, about how he felt France was, quote, arrogant in the first half, which, you know, I thought there were tactical issues more than their effort. And then Lawless tried to back him up and repeat it. [1:57:03] And Zlatan has this incredible moment where he's just like, and by the way, [1:57:08] It's not arrogance. It's confidence. [1:57:11] confidence and I'm just like what is going on these guys are gonna like this is uncomfortable but it's also electric at the same time because Zlatan does not give a shit he doesn't care at all yes usually the studio show should feel like people were invited at a dinner to sit at the same table together because you knew the conversation would be good [1:57:30] The Fox studio shows, they feel like it was a dinner where everybody pulled numbers out of a hat. It's like, oh, I'm at table 18. I'm at table 18. It's a lot of times over there. And then there's just like no chemistry at all at the table because they've never, ever hung out. I had the plus one in that France game with the underdog. I forget. Senegal. Yeah, Senegal. Senegal.

[1:57:52] And then they got it. They got the goal. And then Mbappe fucking like a minute later killed it. But the World Cup, there was a day where, what was it? Four draws in a row? It was like 100,000 bucks if you bet $100 on the parlay. The 2026 redrawable World Cup edition. Yes. Unbelievable. Yeah, that was fun. Okay. Not all draws are created equal. I mean, Cape Verde drawing Spain. [1:58:15] I only saw the second half of that game. The guy was limitating over the goal, just blocking shit. He was doing a VSP. He's up to 7.5 million Instagram followers. [1:58:27] Yeah, that was great. After he had 50,000 before kickoff. He's 40 years old. And then apparently the Department, the Secretary of State, they arranged for his mother to get a visa so she can make the trip for the next game so she gets to see him live. The World Cup is a really cool, really cool thing because these random pop-up stories just come out of nowhere. And all of a sudden we're enthralled by it. Well, the number one thing that happened for people in my life [1:58:57] Love Fest. [1:58:58] Everybody loved them. They were just drinking and walking around and having a great time, basically drinking all the beer out of Boston. And it went so well that they announced there's going to be some sort of partnership between Glasgow and Boston. The Boston Bear announced today, like, we're going to actually try to figure out some sort of thing. It was really amazing because Boston's pretty Irish. [1:59:19] You know, but that's pretty Irish. Yeah, I was going to say, I didn't know how the Scots were going to go, but the Scots were like, Hey, we love drinking too. And then, and from that moment, it was on and they really took over the city. So that, that was really fun. All right. So tournament, we're doing this. It's Thursday. There's two games left today. Uh, France is now plus four 10 on FanDuel is the favorite. Spain's five to one England, six to one Argentina is eight to one Portugal's plus nine 50. I'll book that bet myself.

[1:59:47] Brazil 11-1. I didn't think they looked great either. And then it kind of goes... [1:59:53] on down. You were [1:59:54] There's a couple of those middle teams like Morocco. I think U.S. is now in that. U.S. is down to 40-1. That maybe there's more there than what we saw in the first game. [2:00:06] But that top [2:00:08] Top four feels like the four. [2:00:10] France, Spain, England, Argentina. That would be my four. So if you had to cram one other team into that four, who would it be? [2:00:19] Germany. [2:00:21] Okay, Germany's way down there. They're 14-1. What did you like about Germany? We didn't learn a ton about Germany when they played Curacao, right? Germany traditionally is a flat-track bully. They like to pummel the teams that are a little bit lesser, and they are built to do that. The reason Germany's odds are so low is that if they win their group and France wins their group, they will play each other. [2:00:43] on the 4th of July in Philly, [2:00:46] in the round of 16. [2:00:48] So we have this clash of two, what I think are top five teams. And I would put Brazil and Portugal in the kind of figuring it out phase, potentially playing each other as early as the round of 16. France could then also play semifinals against Spain. So like Germany's path will be very, very difficult. And I'm not really sure if their defense is good enough. Is that a possible what's finished second instead of first situation? [2:01:12] It is. It is. That's hard to engineer. [2:01:15] Yeah. [2:01:15] Because then you don't really know where you're going to end up in the bracket and things get a little bit weirder. And like, you know, France is going to play Norway on the final day.

[2:01:23] So would they tank it? Like, I can't, I can't imagine that. Like, I don't think they're, they're thinking that far ahead. But it would probably be wise to, if you were Germany, like we'll avoid France. Thank you very much. But that would be a fascinating matchup. I just don't know if Germany's defense is good enough. It's been their problem for multiple cycles. That's why they haven't made it out of the group stage the last two World Cups. But they have an incredible manager. [2:01:45] They have an incredible attacking group. [2:01:47] They could score on anybody. They're going to be in the mix. Yeah, because U.S. is in this situation where if they finish first – [2:01:53] Yep. [2:01:54] They play the runner-up from B-E-F-I-R-J. I don't even know what those teams are. It's a third-place team, right, yeah. [2:02:00] If they finish second, [2:02:03] They play the runner-up of Group G, which is Belgium, Egypt, Iran, and New Zealand. I mean, that sounds great. [2:02:11] Exactly. I mean, I'd rather finish first, obviously, but even finishing second, that sounds like an ideal situation. [2:02:19] So if they come in second, though, here's where it gets trickier. Your round of 32 game is probably easier. But then in the round of 16, it's probably Argentina. [2:02:27] Oh, God. So we would prefer to avoid them if they get first. [2:02:32] Maybe a little tougher round of 32 because the third place teams, I mean, who knows? It's too early. [2:02:37] But the round of 16, you could potentially play Belgium, who showed a lot of cracks in their first game against Egypt. [2:02:45] You're like, well, now we're talking. You get Belgium on home soil, revenge for 2014, Chris Wondolowski revenge game, the Tim Howard walking through that door game. And you beat them. If you put betting odds up right now, I don't think they would be huge underdogs at all. I think they'd be close to a toss-up with Belgium. If you knew Pulisic was 100% healthy right now.

[2:03:07] And he's obviously not. But if he was, if we were just healthy right now, [2:03:11] Like, what's the ceiling for you with how excited you would be to, like, [2:03:15] Final four, final eight. [2:03:17] level run for this team just off that one game. [2:03:20] It's literally how far can we go until we have to play France, Spain, England, France. [2:03:25] Or Argentina. That's it. It's quite frankly a matter of like, okay, there are levels to this game. [2:03:32] And the U.S. is going to need some luck to beat one of those teams. And I don't know if I trust the defense and the goalie enough for that kind of challenge. [2:03:39] Right. That's where Paraguay doesn't really test you. So we're going to have to find out. But yeah, like if they're in the round of 16 against Belgium and they win, [2:03:47] Why not? And then maybe there's an upset. And instead of playing... [2:03:50] Spain in the quarters, you're playing Uruguay or Colombia. Then it's like, well, we'll take our chances there. So I think it really comes down to the draw. It's too early to say, but just on performance alone, it would be hard to not say the U.S. isn't playing [2:04:02] in sort of that back end of the top 10 range because the Dutch looked just okay. Belgians looked just okay. [2:04:09] Like none of those teams are jumping. I agree. Not at all. Um, unfandal USA to make last 16 minus two 20. [2:04:18] Did you bet with us last week? Well, that was the minus 130, right? Yeah. So that's minus 220. I didn't. I didn't. [2:04:25] I didn't want to have any money on US. I just wanted to enjoy it. I didn't feel like I needed to add, but I might actually go in on... [2:04:32] on that, uh, [2:04:33] If they finish first in the group that game. Quarterfinals is plus 180 and semis is plus 550. I mean, think about that. That used to be 12 to 1.

[2:04:44] Betting odds are saying we're roughly 37% to make the final eight of the World Cup. [2:04:52] It's not that far off. Do you know off top of your head where the last 16 in the quarterfinals games would even be? [2:05:00] I guess we would know because the group's hit, but is there a way to have any idea? [2:05:04] Yeah, so if they win the group, their first knockout game will be in Santa Clara, California. [2:05:10] that would be the first game and then once they won that [2:05:15] They would play in Seattle. [2:05:17] July 6th. No, we're going once. They win that. I like this. Okay. You're doing the Jalen Brunson. When they win the first round of 32 game, they would go back to Seattle. [2:05:25] on July 6th for their round of 16 game. If, now we'll go if, if they won that, [2:05:31] They would be in the quarterfinals July 10th back at SoFi. [2:05:35] So July 6th, Seattle. [2:05:39] Normally an absolute dead time of the year for sports. [2:05:43] where all the NBA free agents have signed, [2:05:46] Wimbledon is still we're we're getting near the end or yeah we're almost at the end. [2:05:51] with one more then. [2:05:52] holiday weekend we're right at the point where we're we're wondering where all the really fun tennis players went that's around july 6th oh man wish we had like two more fun tennis players like serena and venus williams [2:06:05] Thank you. [2:06:06] We talked about that the last time you were on. [2:06:08] And they're playing doubles. We're going to see Serena at the U.S. Open. I wish I was a fan of that.

[2:06:15] If she comes back, I actually would. My wife would want to go to that. We're a big Serena house. Get together with Schrager? He'll be in town, I'm sure. This was before you were born, but the two great [2:06:27] moments of, and I used to love tennis, but McEnroe at the Open and Connors at the Open were the two runs where I felt like the crowd just... [2:06:36] kind of grabbed them and grabbed them by the neck and pulled them through some of the points in the sets and i the serena thing would be this that the crowd would be can you imagine playing against her [2:06:46] in the US Open. You would have to be one of the best five players in the world locked in. I don't think anyone else would be able to beat her. [2:06:54] So I had the luck to... [2:06:56] the absolute all-time luck box of my friends and i decided one year we're going to go in on friday night tickets on ash before the draw before serena said this is my we bought those tickets and it ended up being serena's last match oh wow we got to go to see her play isla and like that crowd was the coolest tennis crowd i've ever been a part of even when she you know when she came back and she [2:07:21] Holy shit. She's going to win again. Then she loses the third set. And it's kind of sad, but like the whole crowd, the euphoria of that night, [2:07:30] was one of the most special nights I've ever had as a tennis fan. So the fact that we're going to do it again... [2:07:35] Like four, what is it? Four years later? It's the only thing in tennis you're allowed to do. [2:07:40] from a non-sportsmanship standpoint, is if it's a situation like that. If it's the old lion trying to hold on,

[2:07:46] It's just understood. The crowd just gets to root for them and cheer when you double faulted and all that shit comes into play. Otherwise, otherwise, no. Well, the USA thing will be amazing. And then you were in New York today for the parade. [2:07:59] You were in the office. You were in where everything was starting, right? [2:08:06] Just the entire city? [2:08:08] I made the mistake of not [2:08:10] thinking ahead. I was like, I want to go to New York. I'm going to watch England with the Foscast guys. I have a couple of friends I wanted to see when I was in New York. So I got together with them last night. And then this morning, once I got to the office yesterday, people were talking about the parade. I'm like, [2:08:25] oh, where's the parade? They're like, oh, it's coming right down this street. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. This is going to be an absolute madhouse tomorrow morning. So I managed to get in and out. I saw parts of it and I was very happy to kind of, [2:08:37] escape. What was the madhouse on a scale of one to 10? Like a nine? [2:08:41] Like I said, it's not my team. Nor were the Eagles, I guess, when they won. But I compare it to that in the sense that when the Eagles first won, I was in Syracuse at the time, and I was the only one that had a car of my freshman friends from Philly. So I was like, okay, I'll drive home. We drove home at 2 in the morning. We get there at 6.30, 7 o'clock. People are already drinking. By 9 o'clock, you can tell people are already drunk. And it's just a huge party for something that had been so much time in the waiting. So I'm so happy for all of my Knicks friends. [2:09:11] And now I'm back to disliking the Knicks again. Glad they had their moment. [2:09:14] Happy for him, was rooting for him. [2:09:16] It's over. It's one of only like maybe 10 excuses to just be hammered at 10 in the morning.

[2:09:22] Yes. It's a very short list. In New York, it's like the Big East Tournament... [2:09:25] And the Knicks. Football tailgates are great. Alright, so give us your USA predictions before we go. [2:09:31] I am predicting... [2:09:33] No, go. Australia? For this specific game? No, just give us your updated predictions. [2:09:40] Okay, U.S. is going to make the quarterfinals. [2:09:43] and lose to Spain. [2:09:45] That is my official prediction. They are going to win their first two knockout games, get to that quarterfinal, and then maybe water finds its level. And they were like, okay, yeah, there's... [2:09:54] There's a gap here. Their midfield gets a little exposed. Their defense, trying to watch Jedi against Laminia Mall would be really fun. But I think Spain gets past them. So that's my official now prediction. However, I think they're going to win the group. [2:10:05] And a draw tomorrow is not a bad result. [2:10:08] On Friday, if they get a draw against Australia, they keep control. They stay in first place going into the final match. Ballistic stays healthy. Maybe he gets the night off. That's fine. That's okay. It's not the end of the world. It will kill some momentum. [2:10:19] But in the grand scheme of the tournament, [2:10:21] It's fine. I'll take it. We move. [2:10:23] All right. Dibundo, good to see you. Enjoy the game tomorrow. Have a great weekend. [2:10:27] Go USA. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to the Bunda. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday. [2:10:37] Going live on Netflix at some point during the day. I'll tweet out the exact time. Go USA. I'll see you on Sunday.

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