A behind-the-scenes interview with Lenny Rachitsky on building his newsletter and podcast

[00:00] I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. This was as I was starting the newsletter and this phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And that was for three hours. It gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share. What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Oh no! My mom doesn't know. Do you want to take that back? You started your newsletter in 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers. [00:30] 1.2 million. 1.2. Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience. People always say if you want to write, read. The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career. What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? On the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined up some company as a PM. Do you still like it? I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, [01:00] the Indiana Jones boulder is chasing me constantly. It's like this treadmill that you're on. - Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business. - Here's something I've never shared. [01:09] Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife. [01:14] Michelle Rialt [01:15] who turns the table and interviews me. I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast [01:22] and what could be more fun than doing this with my wife? I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else. [01:29] including some of the hardest moments from this journey. I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday, and she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely pre-order it. This was so fun and so special. I'm going to

[01:53] I hope you love it. [01:54] Let's get into it. [01:55] Here's a puzzle for you. What do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Platt, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common? The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS. If you're building software for enterprises, you've probably felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, skim, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by big customers. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. [02:25] lead-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer, or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unlocking growth. [02:34] They're essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit WorkOS.com to get started, or just hit up their Slack support where they have real engineers in there who answer your questions super fast. WorkOS allows you to build like the best with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to WorkOS.com to make your app enterprise-ready today. [02:56] Who says hiring has to be fair? Every founder and hiring manager I've been speaking with these days is feeling the same pressure. Hire the best people as fast as possible. But recruiting is time consuming, alignment is hard, and competition for great talent keeps getting tighter. That's why teams like Eleven Labs, Brex, Replit, Deal, and 5,000 other organizations use MetaView, the AI company giving high-performance teams a real unfair advantage in hiring. They give you a

[03:26] of AI agents that behave like recruiting coworkers. They find candidates for you based on your exact criteria, take interview notes automatically, gather insights across your hiring process, and help you identify the best candidates in your pipeline. AI handles the recruiting toil and gives you a real source of truth. That means hours saved for hire and a team focused on what matters most, winning the right candidates. Don't let your competitors out hire you. [03:56] 30% faster. Try MetaView today for free and get an extra month of sourcing at metaview.ai. [04:11] Michelle Rial, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. [04:14] Thanks for having me. [04:16] So what are we doing here? [04:17] uh [04:18] People constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like, why don't you sit on the other side of the... [04:23] microphone get interviewed and I'm just like nah I like interviewing [04:26] But you have a book coming out? [04:29] And we thought this would be a fun opportunity to... [04:33] Have you interviewed me? [04:35] And so this is going to be your show. I'm just going to be here asking me whatever you want. I have no idea what you're going to ask me. [04:40] and we'll see where it goes and i'm gonna ask you some questions about your book too [04:44] So, [04:46] I'll turn that over to you, Michelle. What do you got? What do you got for me? Well, Lenny... [04:49] Okay. [04:51] Babe. Yeah. [04:55] Yeah, so

[04:57] You started your newsletter. [04:59] 2019. [05:02] And it now has over a million subscribers. 1.2 million. 1.2. Mm-hmm. And your podcast is... [05:10] is, oh, you, [05:12] Very frequently one of the top 10. Is that right? Yep. It's like right around. Yeah. Yeah. Top 10 tech podcast. Yeah. Yes. Hell yeah. [05:20] I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer. I was a software engineer. Let's see when you met me. [05:27] No, I think it was still a software engineer, yeah. I think you went from software engineer to product engineer to product manager. [05:35] Yeah, yeah. And I'm wondering, what do you what do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? [05:41] If I like stayed in my job. [05:43] Yeah, if you hadn't... And then that... [05:46] I mean, I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment? [05:49] that led you to your newsletter, but you can answer either one. [05:53] So is the question after I left Airbnb, what would I be doing? Or is it like if I didn't quit? Just if you hadn't. [05:59] Or if you had gotten a different job, do you think you would have gotten a different job, stayed there? So when I left my job, I was at Airbnb for seven years. I had like plan A. [06:09] start a company again plan b join a startup as like their first pm plan c join a big company as a pm plan d [06:18] advise companies become a consultant kind of person nowhere in that plan was like do this crazy thing that i do now i had a lot of startup ideas as i was exploring the startup ideas as you remember i was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff and then on the side i was writing

[06:32] things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like, why are you writing? Why do you, there's, you can't make money on the internet writing. You should be doing this thing that you're good at startups and building and [06:45] tech and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like there's a pull here. So I'm just going to keep doing this. I don't know if I say things that you're good at. I just said, I just said like, as a person putting writing on the internet, I don't make any [06:57] Unless people buy my book. Yeah. Plug. Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, I'd probably find another company to start and I probably would have failed considering most startups fail. [07:10] So I'd probably be in this like, oh, no, is this thing a thing I should be doing? I'd be on the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company, I guess, as a PM. So then I guess going back to that. [07:22] question of what [07:24] What do you think? Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you to go full in on the newsletter or start the newsletter, start the Medium post that led to the newsletter? Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments. It's kind of this like a little journey that I just followed pull that was starting to work. And I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. [07:41] So a few moments along my journey. [07:43] One was the first thing I wrote on the internet. This is like the first thing I wrote on the internet. Did very well. It was this post on what I learned at Airbnb. Medium featured everyone all over the place. Franceschi shared with the whole company. So proud of what I shared. So that was a moment of like, maybe I have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point. And there's more of just like, hmm.

[08:04] This is working, people seem to like it. [08:07] Then I had a conversation with a friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now, because I was telling him, I don't know what I'm saying. [08:13] I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I writing? This is like not a future. I should be focusing on the startup. And he's just like, you seem to be enjoying it. People seem to be liking it. [08:23] which was very rare, that Venn diagram of things, just like how often do you enjoy something and people value it? [08:29] And maybe there's a way to make money in the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment. [08:38] Another maybe big moment was... [08:40] nine months of doing the newsletter so i decided i'm going to move to substack [08:44] I'm going to write every week. I tweeted. I'm going to experiment with a newsletter, a weekly newsletter, see how it goes. [08:50] And so I [08:51] did that every week for nine months and i just remember this moment nine months in where i was [08:57] I've been doing this every week for nine months. [09:00] which means I could probably do this for nine more months. There's this Lindy effect. I don't know if you know this, but there's this concept of something being Lindy, which is as long as it's been going for, [09:13] it will most likely last at least that long in the future. So I thought that, okay, I could do this for at least probably another year. I have all these ideas and things I want to write about. So let me just... [09:21] keep doing this so that's when i decided to add the paywall and start charging and to see if i could make money doing this thing also in parallel as you know uh [09:29] I was doing this based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was going to be worth something and I could take this time to explore.

[09:36] And then COVID hit and Airbnb might have [09:38] I was like, over? R-I-P-R-B-N-B-L over Twitter. And I was like, maybe I need to [09:45] get a job for real and so i'm like i gotta make money on this thing let me try so that's what i [09:50] started the paywall and so and that worked that's like the other moment i think i launched the paywall [09:54] And it [09:55] worked you know i made meaningful dollars like a month in [09:58] so speaking of venn diagram he said i'm good at it and i [10:02] And people like it? And people like it. Oh, and I like doing it. [10:05] you like doing that's a really good because i didn't mention that okay that's so that's so true [10:10] that it's like that's so important right yeah yeah i think you guys like five things right it's like a whole bunch of stuff yeah but that's like it's like a point because it was just like people like it and i'm good at it but without that i actually enjoy it i think you said i and i liked it okay [10:25] Do you still like it? [10:26] I do? [10:27] in almost every way. I can't imagine doing [10:31] something more fulfilling and interesting. [10:35] Just basically... [10:36] My job is to write about things that are interesting and share people's interesting insights and experiences and interview people and extract wisdom. It's just like so interesting. It's my own thing, which makes it extra interesting. [10:48] But... [10:49] I think a lot about this artist. Finch wrote this blog post, How to Become an Artist. [10:55] And at the top of his post, he's just like, you should not become a professional artist, most likely.

[11:02] Because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it. [11:05] You have to do it. So now I'm on this... [11:09] Like, this is the downside. But I just want to preface with saying this is incredible, and I can't imagine doing anything else. [11:15] that i enjoy more but [11:17] Having to write a post or put out a post every single week and a podcast episode every week, you know, it's like this treadmill that you're on. So you have to kind of get used to that. [11:26] That part is no fun. But again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing. [11:32] And and it kind of goes up and down sometimes like I love it. I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week. And then some weeks I'm like, it'd be cool to do it this week. But that's part of this life, you know, because otherwise you can't do this. You can't you can't survive in this way if you're not doing something consistently and making it awesome every week. [11:48] so it's a part of it so the visual i always have is the indiana jones [11:52] boulder is chasing me constantly. [11:54] because you put out something, like I have a post come out, [11:58] What's today? We're recording on Wednesday. I had a post come out yesterday. And then it's like, what's next week? All right, that's done. [12:04] All that work you put into it, over. It's coming out next week, and it's like every week. [12:09] So the big question I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term. [12:13] Because someday... [12:15] whether it's a seven years old or a hundred years old or six years old i don't know like maybe i won't be able to do this every single week so [12:22] I think about where does this all go? I don't think there's an answer to like Substack writer podcast life. [12:28] long-term like what do you do like according to the lindy right there you go so 2019 seven seven seven years since the newsletter seven years

[12:36] Good luck. Hope you don't run out of ideas. Okay, so we've got seven years. I can do that. [12:42] Yeah. Okay. So, [12:44] Speaking of the boulder, you don't seem like a stressed out person and I don't see you as a stressed out person, only like. [12:51] Potty training, sleep, the toddler or baby sleep stuff. Yeah. [12:57] I don't see you as a stressed out person. [12:59] Do you think there's anything behind that? Do you think that's just you? [13:03] And or are you just stressed and you don't show it? [13:07] I think there is an element of I'm more stressed than I come across as and even recognize with myself. [13:13] Like I get these headaches sometimes. I'm like, what is going on there? Is that stress or is that something else? [13:17] So I think there's a bit of, I'm probably more stressed than it looks like and that I even feel. [13:22] But... [13:23] I think I'm probably less stressed than the average person. I think part of it is genetics. [13:27] And then part of it is I work on it. Like I just... [13:31] I've learned to adjust the way I think. [13:34] to reduce... [13:36] stress and to not take things seriously. But I think honestly, it's probably like 70% genetics. I'm just like, it'll be all right. It'll be all right. As you know, something we argue about, that'll be right. [13:46] That's some like raw chicken. They'll be fine. That's fine. [13:51] So, okay. Do you have any tools or any kind of like, I know you've done different types of meditation. We've done breathing courses together. Do you have a favorite? Oh, to like calm down and de-stress and things like that. And you did a 10-day silent meditation right before you...

[14:08] ended up writing the post. That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh, here's something I've never shared. Okay. You asked about going back to the moments that led me to this life. [14:18] So I went on a [14:20] bachelor party trip with some friends. This isn't where you think it's going. I hope not. So there's a trip to Joshua Tree with a friend and there is psychedelics involved on this trip. [14:32] uh and i just remember so we went to joshua tree i just sat down on this rock [14:37] on a substance of some sort, [14:39] And, [14:41] And this was as I was starting the newsletter. [14:44] And I just remember sitting there for... [14:46] probably three hours in this one spot. [14:49] And I was just having this deep breathing happening and this like... [14:55] phrase of "I have wisdom to share" [14:58] coming through me over and over and over and i was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of [15:04] sitting Buddha thing. And it's just like... [15:08] I have wisdom to share. [15:10] And that was for three hours. [15:12] That made you write the post? That made me feel like I can do this. Like it gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share. Yeah, that was a really powerful moment just to give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like, oh, yeah, maybe I could do this thing. So that was a big moment. [15:28] What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Oh, no. Do you want to take this back? My mom doesn't know. Do you want to take that back? No, no. Do you want to crop it out? This is...

[15:38] Okay, Mom, I did some stuff. It's okay. It's time to share. And then, yeah, you did 10-day meditation. You did... [15:49] a specific type of meditation that that seemed to me to to affect you in like physical ways yeah and then you told me once about a happiness [15:57] course you took yeah that was actually pretty transformative i took this online [16:02] course at University of Pennsylvania about the psychology of happiness. And it was basically all the science of what makes you happier and how to be happier. And that really had a big impact on me because it showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things. And one of the things is just like thinking more positively, like thinking more optimistically. There's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful. [16:24] But there's just something about you can everyone's got this baseline. That was actually a big learning from that course is everyone's just kind of this baseline level of happiness. And you could be like at 100, you could be at zero, probably more. Most people are in between somewhere. And like something amazing happens. You go way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something terrible happens. You go back to that baseline. And the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher place. So that's what a lot of the opportunities. [16:52] work is and what you learned in that class. [16:55] And one of the things is just be optimistic, just kind of have a positive outlook. [16:59] And don't let your mind kind of spiral into these like, it's going to be terrible. So it was a lot of just like think more positively. And I feel like my baseline of

[17:08] level of happiness has gone up. [17:10] I think that, yeah. I think you told me exercise too, like you used to run. Yes, that was a really good insight. So exercise, the science, this was like, I don't know, 15 years ago. I'm guessing there's new research. But the interesting thing there is exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative. So your negative one. [17:27] without exercise and exercise brings you to zero so that you're not depressed basically. Speaking of stress. Okay, then I have a question for you. [17:34] Okay, let's do this. Let's do this. [17:37] because, [17:39] I know on your podcast, you have a lightning round. Okay. [17:42] We're going to do a thunder round. Is that extra fast? What does that mean? No, it's sound. Your one thing that I think stresses you out [17:50] The most? [17:51] at times is your misophonia. [17:54] which is, you want to explain what it is? Yeah, it's like, it's funny to talk about it, but it's this, it's like this disorder that, [18:03] It's like a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds. [18:07] And so I get very bothered by people [18:10] Okay, Thunder Round is going to be top five worst sounds. [18:16] Or you can rank these sounds. Okay, okay. You're going to give me the five? Like, like... [18:20] Best sound to worst sound. Okay. Right? So like 10 is worst. Oh, okay. What are the best sounds? Okay. Let's say chewing. [18:29] Chewing 1 to 10. Chewing like with the mouth open. Chewing the worst. Yeah. I hate it. 10 is the worst. 10 is the worst. Yeah. It's, you know. [18:38] It's probably, yeah, it's 10, none are 10. Or like nails on a chalkboard, what's that? That's like less bad for me. Right.

[18:44] What's the number? Like if it's someone sitting right next to me, just like chomping away. Yeah. [18:48] And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's like so weird. They're like, shut up. You're sweet. But it's just like, what? [18:54] I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me alone. [18:57] That's how I feel whenever I do it by accident near you. Yeah. Okay, so nails on a chalkboard, what's... [19:03] It's like six. I don't know. Five. What about like a baby crying or your baby crying versus your baby crying? [19:10] Baby crying. So 10 is the worst? Yeah. So how loud? Very loud baby crying? Like in newborn phase, didn't know what to do. Oh, yeah. Like when Jude was born? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's pretty hard. Planned around. Okay. [19:27] Like eights. Okay. Okay. What about like, um, [19:31] when dude says Papa. Yeah. [19:34] One is the best, yeah. Is there any other sound you... [19:38] Jude laughing. [19:39] Okay. Okay. What about another bad sound? [19:43] I don't know. [19:45] You can ask me now if you want. [19:47] If you're getting... [19:49] Strut. [19:51] No, no, no. Like there's not that many bad sounds. It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like. Basketball. You know, if there's just like if I'm trying to come like be calm and there's like a bunch of commotion like, OK, like a gas, you know, blower. [20:05] Oh, yeah. When I'm trying to work. That's, I think, a notorious one for people. [20:09] What is that a 10? [20:10] It's like if it's super loud and right in my face, I would say, let's say seven. OK, you can ask your question if you want or I have more for you. I'm going to ask you a question. So so you make these incredible genius, funny charts. There's one example on this book. So you have this first book here called Am I overthinking this, which a lot of people identify with.

[20:30] has sold many copies. So you create all these charts that try to... [20:36] synthesize [20:37] things in life, things people experience, things people feel. A lot of these charts get shared on socials. [20:43] by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution [20:50] They make pillows and mugs and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made. [20:54] just like on [20:56] swag that you get no credit for. [20:58] I know it's bothered you a lot over the years. What makes your charts so shareable so widely? Why do they go so viral so often? [21:06] By the way, I stopped looking. [21:07] at that because it doesn't help me anyway um that's good i think that's for the best well i think as [21:15] As your thing has gotten more successful, it's like not as [21:18] important to me i do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me which is i don't know why but um yeah people want to get credit when they do um and it's i i think i can [21:29] Some of them, [21:30] It's clear when I make it. [21:33] whether it's like i make it and then i let it sit and then some other some like moment happens where i'm like oh no this is what it needs and then i'm like now it's [21:40] Now I can feel that's really good and [21:42] Usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle, even though I made it. It's like like it's like, oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me or makes me kind of like tear up. Then I feel like, OK, I think. [21:55] People are going to like this. [21:56] I am often wrong and sometimes too like, [21:59] There are things, there's something from that book that I didn't share at all, but someone took a photo of it. That's how it went viral, it's like just a photo of a page of a book that people loved. Like it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture, it's just like some random photo, yeah. Yeah, which is interesting as well. And also people's attention spans, sometimes they're just, what I like to make is things that are really simple.

[22:21] And, [22:22] quick and [22:24] show you something you haven't thought of before? [22:26] And I think that if it's really easy to digest, [22:30] People's attention spans are short these days, and if it makes them feel something, [22:34] is another thing and [22:36] It's also... [22:37] nice to make something that's [22:39] that isn't a lot of like physical labor because some things you can make and it can take you forever [22:46] to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this but then oh this then this people like it when it's really simple [22:54] Yeah, I love your point about like, [22:57] The way you know a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like this is hilarious. This makes you laugh, makes you feel something. And that's similar to the way I think about my newsletter post and [23:07] Yeah, more the newsletter than the podcast is it just to me, it feels like this is like really interesting and really good. It's very like not waiting for other people to give you. [23:17] approval or feedback, it's like [23:19] I feel this is good. [23:22] And I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff. [23:26] I find that when you work on your charts, [23:29] Uh-huh. [23:30] you're like you think so many levels deep they're like [23:33] They're like so they're like too clever sometimes. And I have to like because to your point, people have a short attention span. Sometimes they're like too clever and I have to like, OK, this is too many layers. You have to understand. I have to like that's a little much. You have to like simplify it a little bit. [23:47] Yeah, you're my editor. [23:49] sometimes i try but you're like no you're like i don't care i don't i don't care about your feedback

[23:54] usually probably right yeah okay let me ask you one more question and then we could switch it around again [24:00] How do you come up with your ideas for your charts? You have so many [24:03] such variety. You had an adult book, you had a children's, they have a children's book. [24:08] you're working on like charts for parents, you have all this other stuff going on, [24:12] Where do your ideas come from, Michelle? [24:13] the ideas come from just living life and noticing noticing a lot of things and then also kind of [24:19] observing [24:21] a lot. [24:22] I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating and in meditation you [24:28] learn to kind of observe your own thinking and if you're anxious about something like oh i'm [24:33] That's funny that I was anxious about that random thing that I've never thought about it that way before. [24:40] which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment which meditation shouldn't [24:46] be teaching you to do but that's what happens but i've noticed if i focus too much on my work [24:52] I stop living life and then I stop having ideas. [24:56] And it's a little different with children's books, which is what [24:59] I'm working on right now. [25:01] because [25:02] It's not like relatable... [25:04] things a little bit but it's um more children's concepts but the adult stuff has to be just through living life noticing yeah yeah noticing [25:15] Makes me think about anything David Sedaris had this... [25:17] story where he just has to say yes to everything he's invited to just because he needs to have experiences because he just has to keep pumping out stories. So he's just like, sure, let's go to Vegas right now. Let's do it. So I feel like that's a lot of the work here is just to live real life. You can't just kind of sit there and come up with ideas. You have to

[25:36] try stuff and do crazy things. Yeah, so the first, so my first children's book, which, [25:41] is is out soon um that one actually came out of kind of observing [25:45] parenthood and early new parenthood moments that's how i started i started at the beginning of the notebook writing kind of like trying to make charts for new parents but [25:55] We'd been reading so many... [25:57] kids books together that I just had this like that it ended it like rhythm in my head of children's books. And so what it just turned to the back of the notebook and started writing [26:07] more like children's book rhymes. This is the back of a notebook? Because you're working on a different book. In this notebook, I picked it up to put my questions in for you. Yeah, and so I started off in the front. [26:19] I'm not going to show you. So you started in the front on a different idea. I started off in the front. [26:23] Charge for New Parents. [26:25] And then I was like, [26:27] got a few in [26:29] you know, like a good amount in. And then I was just in the park. Right. And then I kind of was just like, yeah, but I have always wanted to do these charts for kids or for babies. [26:39] And I just kept wanting to... [26:42] right that so i started in the back and then i filled it up [26:44] I love that this is another example of just following pull. [26:48] And not just doing the thing that you're doing. Just like, huh, this is... [26:52] Pull me in. I'm going to try it and just see where it goes. [26:55] Look at this. What a callback. Okay, back to you, Michelle. Back to you. Back to me. Back to you, Lenny. Back to you through me. Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay. So tell me about...

[27:07] I do want to ask you this question, inspired by a friend who like reverse nicknames you and says like, Leonard, is your name full name Leonard? Where's Lenny come from? And by the way, reverse nickname, meaning they give you a nickname without you like asking them. Well, there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. Yeah. That's yes. Yeah. He gives you the full name. Oh, I see. Makes it long. Yeah. It's not a thing. I'm just making it up. OK, I like that. OK. So the question is my real name. [27:37] from the Ukraine, which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Boris, which turned out to be a big, big news. Odessa. Odessa, yeah. My parents named me Leonid. [27:48] was my real official first name in the US. But they called me Lenny. Everyone called me Lenny. And so when we became citizens, you could change your name. [27:57] And so my parents just changed it to Lenny. So that's my real name. It's just Lenny. No Leonard. No Leo. Yeah. No Leonard. Just Lenny. Just Lenny. Yeah. I love it. [28:08] and leonid as in it's it's a russian name or there's also the like [28:12] star constellation oh the leonids i don't know i think they just asked their friends just like what is [28:19] My Russian name is Lonya. [28:20] And so I think they just like with the English version of that. And I'm guessing some of their friends are just like, we don't need. [28:26] I don't know if they named it after anything. [28:28] specific. [28:29] Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm going to assume no. [28:32] What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it. I don't know what they are. Like Lunchik?

[28:37] Okay, sure. I could share that. Sure. Do you like it? [28:41] Yeah. Can people call you that? Well, it's like my family calls me that. Okay. Yeah. It's like a Russian little nickname. [28:47] Yeah. But like, [28:50] Strangers, can they call you that? [28:52] uh no don't copy it okay and speaking of strangers how do you feel when people approach you and and is it weird at all like like oh yeah like does it remind you how [29:01] big your newsletter has gotten or like do you like it? [29:05] Do you like certain ways of [29:06] approaching it. [29:07] Yeah, so I guess what you're speaking to is when I walk around the Bay Area in particular, people often recognize me, which is extremely weird. [29:15] and started with the podcast. Interestingly, I had the newsletter for four years. Yeah, you got to be stealth. Yeah, my face was tiny on some Twitter profile. But once I started the podcast, people just... [29:27] Yeah, it was like very weird the first time it started happening, and then it happens quite a lot. I like it a lot. It's very cool. I really appreciate it. It makes me feel really nice. [29:37] I am not bothered by it in any way. It always... [29:41] It's very flattering. People are always so nice and just have endless nice things to say. I've never had a bad experience. So I'm just trying to say hi. [29:48] to me so [29:50] Please say hi. [29:51] - Okay, that's great. That's cool. - And I often ask people, what's their favorite podcast episode or favorite newsletter? Because I'm just curious. I always ask just like, your founder, your product person, like what's your story? Yeah, it's really nice. - What about if you're in the middle of, if you're like at a coffee shop and you have headphones on and somebody says like, hey. [30:05] Or if you're like playing with your kid, what do you think? I think you're projecting about what you wouldn't want. Girl, yeah.

[30:13] People don't do that. I think people have been generally very conscious. You know, there could be a moment of just like we're getting somewhere and I can't talk for too long and I don't want to be rude. [30:21] Or you're really going to focus. Yeah. But then... [30:24] Yeah. It hasn't been a problem yet. [30:26] uh almost like 99 of people have been very considerate yeah and i don't want people to feel like they can't just talk to me and say yeah that's cool yeah they're always so cool i like that yeah is there any like instance of delightful like maybe the first time this happened [30:41] We live in Marin. [30:43] And... [30:44] I was walking through San Anselmo with you, as you remember, and there's this guy in a little red car driving by with his son. He's driving by and we're on the sidewalk. And then he just yells, Lenny, I love your podcast. [31:00] God. And this wasn't even the San Francisco's and San Anselmo. And it was, uh, [31:05] Shocked. [31:06] And then he just kept, he like held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. [31:11] Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. And then I met him later. He runs a hamburger club in Marin. [31:16] He's very cool. [31:17] Because I saw him again at another coffee shop. So that was quite delightful. [31:21] I love that. [31:23] Okay. [31:24] You just said something. [31:26] Okay, people coming up to you. [31:28] um okay you're gonna have to cut this see no we're not gonna cut it because this is what i go through too as a podcast interviewer i thought of something i lost this is what i'm constantly dealing with yeah that is a challenge of the interviewer uh and i think it's fun for people to see because you're like okay i have to think about what's i'm gonna say next and then you're like they're stopping and you're like oh what's it gonna be so that's why on when i do the podcast i'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly

[31:54] oh sorry okay chicken oats yeah well okay i closed my okay i should have written it down let's talk about like thinking back to what what kind of [32:04] um hints that you would start this newsletter or like [32:08] Things that you worked on when you were younger that are... [32:11] mildly adjacent or like you know because you had some websites you had atheist spot you had like you had some tutorials tutorials that's one [32:25] So the question is, like, what are the things I did earlier that helped me with the work? Do you know? Or, yeah, just because just looking back, like anything that that is kind of like makes it obvious that you would have started this newsletter or like a little more. I don't think there's anything that would have pointed to. [32:39] me or anybody to this being the thing that i do now it's completely unexpected personally and i don't think anyone saw coming i had never written anything online before i started writing i was always not like hey look at me i've got all the answers and i have all this wisdom to share is always like [32:56] I'm an introvert. I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes. [32:59] So, [33:00] It's a very unexpected path for me. And part of the reason I think I was able to do it is the newsletter started during COVID. So I could just sit there and type and put stuff out online. I didn't have to go anywhere and like... [33:10] Hello, everyone. I could stay in my little hole. [33:12] But just do it. [33:14] follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier because [33:18] I don't think I've ever talked about these things. I had all these different side projects. [33:22] before uh like through college i guess yeah through college

[33:26] It was like a very... [33:28] a big atheist and i'm still an atheist jewish atheist which is many jews but i was like very into it before and i'm like okay i don't care whatever believe it you're on believe uh so i used to run a website called the atheist spot.com [33:41] which was Reddit for Atheist News. [33:44] which is not a you know reddit is that it's fine i don't you don't need it but i went to like there's like conventions we went to [33:52] Atheist conventions. So I did that. And the funny thing is that was the during AdWords when Google AdWords was a way to monetize your site. And so all the ads on the site, because most of the articles were about religion, were all these religious dating sites. [34:09] So it's like Christian Mingle and like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience. [34:14] So I always thought that was funny. And then I worked with [34:17] a friend on this other project called utorials which was so ahead of its time the idea was utorials tutorials for you by you [34:24] Nice. And so it's people contributing things they've learned and writing a how-to, like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower. That's like TikTok, right? It's like TikTok. It was before Wikipedia, I think. No, no, no, yeah. Yeah, it's like YouTube. It's like, yeah. That's like what I watch TikTok for is like watching people make eggs. [34:42] Yeah, and parenting advice and things to be afraid of in Dan's videos. That's what your thing was or that's what TikTok is? That's what TikTok is, right? [34:50] Yeah. [34:51] So yeah, I was really proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it was ahead of time. And we paid people. And LocalMind was ahead of its time. And LocalMind. So that was my startup.

[34:59] We sold it to Airbnb. That's how I got there. LocalMine, amazing idea in [35:04] not something anyone needs really. [35:07] I still need it. [35:08] I still need it. Like you need it once in a while. So just to briefly explain what that is, it was an app that sat on top of Foursquare and Goala when that was very cool and allowed you to ask questions of people. [35:18] checked in anywhere in the world so if you're like is there a long line at the mill which is near here should i go is there a long line what's like the special use that basically yeah we use google does it with their like is it busy yes yeah like you know all these other ways that you could solve this problem it was very cool uh [35:34] It was amazing. Nobody needs it, really. [35:36] If there's still things you want to ask people. You need it like once in a while. You need it like once a quarter. Yeah. And it's holy shit. That's so good. But you know, you can't make a business out of that. So... [35:45] I'm glad that we... [35:47] We exited. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom get a deep understanding [36:17] AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny. That's getdx.com slash Lenny.

[36:31] Okay, so you're mentioning the atheist bot with [36:34] venture religious dating sites reminded me that you were my first [36:39] online date ever on a platform called How About We. [36:44] And I remember that, I mean, you had had other dates. [36:48] Um, [36:49] Anyway, no, but I remember you were like, um, had, [36:54] See, I think you had to think for designers. [36:56] And I wonder if you regret that preference. Like designer artist sort of like. No, not at all. Stereotype. [37:04] No, no. Like I'm not. [37:06] Like, you're pretty neat. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're kind of chaotic, yeah. Which is, we can talk about your process, but it's like, it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin-yang. Yeah. Yeah, like you're unstressed, unbothered. I'm... [37:21] bothered yeah i'm just things everywhere yeah we got cleaners they help things out [37:27] Yeah, that's true. [37:29] It's worth it. Okay. [37:31] So, [37:32] You're okay with designers still, good. And then... [37:36] Yeah, right, right. I highly recommend. Okay. Yeah. Great. So yeah, I was gonna ask like, do you have any tips for because it's like, it's, you know, there's, there's something you said recently, which is like, you don't have any co workers. I was like, I'm a co worker. We work at home. But yeah, do you feel do you ever feel like lonely? Not because you're always really social. And then this goes into to like, even before you were knee shameless, or whatever, we want to call it.

[38:06] things and do you feel like you miss... [38:10] office culture. People ask me that over the years and I've always like, no, it's amazing. I don't need that. I just do my own thing and I don't need people around. But I've kind of started to feel that a little bit. I'm just like, huh, there's no one. I just sit at home all day and just like, [38:24] Our dog likes to be right next to you. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah. So I do feel like I do miss it now. It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like, you know, it'd be cool to just jam with someone on stuff. And I have a team and I have you. [38:39] And Twitter. [38:42] Well, you like to go to coffee shops. I like to go to coffee. What do you get? [38:45] But it's like bowling alone. I don't know. It's like a good metaphor. And you have your headphones on. And you're focused. So it would be fun. Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff. But it's not like. I do miss having someone next to me. That I'm just working with on the same thing. But I also am trying very hard to never have. [39:04] full-time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing that's complicated that I'm like, what have I done? One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate. [39:17] by doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel [39:22] Big? [39:23] And then you're like, I hate this. [39:25] So I'm trying to be really... [39:27] careful about what I commit to you. And [39:29] do coming back to your question i do miss it some yeah it's like a new thing i've realized that i miss is [39:35] being around other people, like working on the same thing.

[39:38] Yeah. [39:39] Speaking of other people coming up to you and being around other people, [39:43] I think it's become harder for you now that people you don't know come up to you because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness. [39:49] Absolutely. People who do know you. [39:53] come up to you and you're like and you're like waiting to know if if they just listen to your podcast or if you. [39:59] Like, I know if I know that, like, yeah. [40:01] Yeah, this is a big problem for me. Yeah. It's like... [40:04] It's like another brain disorder, I guess, where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it. So I just like... [40:10] I know you. [40:11] Who are you? [40:12] It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, who is this? Yeah, sometimes I feel like the Devil Wears Prada assistant, where I'm like, [40:20] That's Emily. You worked with her at an Airbnb. You don't do that. You need to do that. I do it sometimes. You do that sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So bad at that. OK. So if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please. Sorry. [40:33] I'm really bad at it. And yeah, it's gotten worse because now I know more people through the podcast and newsletter. And you just know a lot of people. [40:40] Yeah, it's like a lot of faces. [40:43] You're very kind. [40:44] I try. I try. I try. [40:48] So going back to the unbothered, [40:50] vibe that you have. Tell me about [40:53] a time you've been really stressed in your business and then a time you've been really stressed in your [40:58] Personally. [40:59] Okay, so on the business side, so I have this product pass. So as a subscriber to my newsletter, I'm going to go to the newsletter. [41:05] you get 23 incredible products. And I used to read them all. Linear, mobbin, lovable replit, gamma.

[41:13] I stopped doing this because there's too many now. I had the end of my podcast. I just read through them all. And now I can't do it anymore. There's too many. I had a launch about a year ago. It's about a year, actually, where I launched. You get a free year of Cursor and Lovable and Bolt and Replit and VZero. [41:30] I think that's five. And so... [41:32] That was way too good an offer. [41:35] people, [41:36] came for it. Bad people. [41:38] So I just had so many fraudsters. [41:41] mostly in china it turned out just like all these fraud rings in china [41:46] trying to find ways to steal all my... [41:48] all these free goodies so they set up all these [41:52] crazy attacks and I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just like shut them down. [41:57] And they just found all these little exploits in our API that we built and like this... [42:01] So it's like such a nightmare because we're just like waking up to... [42:05] Like every night. It was hard to sleep. And I have this engineer, Este, who's [42:10] So incredible. Any questions? [42:12] like didn't sleep for a week. [42:15] stopping filling all these holes because there's a lot of a lot of smart clever bad guys out there so that was extremely stressful like it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart if everyone's like oh my god [42:25] Can't trust Lenny anymore. [42:27] So as you remember, it was very stressful. I didn't sleep too well. [42:30] And it was like, [42:32] very scary and there's all these they just kept popping up and there's all these like rings and it went viral in china too that's like in the student network they just holy shit you get a year free of cursor and lovable and replin and bolt and v0 and

[42:44] Ah, so... [42:46] It's very stressful. [42:47] To answer your question on the personal side, [42:50] Okay, so... [42:51] When our baby was born, the birth was very complicated. [42:55] you had to get [42:57] c-section. [42:59] because the induction wasn't getting it there because yeah it was complicated complicated and normally i feel like i would tell the story but you weren't awake but this is also like a when harry met sally but it's like how the the pregnant person almost died [43:15] you know but okay but it's from your perspective because yeah i didn't get to experience it right so [43:21] Yeah, so what happened is you had to do a cesarean, [43:25] they gave you an ass... And so the idea is they bring you into the [43:28] operating room, [43:30] They do the anesthetic. [43:33] the epidural or whatever it's called and then they let the husband and the partner in and so i was waiting in the hall waiting for them to [43:40] do the anesthetic with your scrubs they gave me a whole bunny suit yeah super sterile just standing there in this bunny suit thing and the idea is they do the anesthetic and i can come in and then watch the birth and all that stuff and five ten minutes in i just hear beep beep beep beep beep beep beep [43:56] And the doctor runs out, scrubs her hands. [44:00] runs back in. [44:01] And then all the two other people run from another room. [44:04] down the hall into the room. [44:07] And I was like, uh-oh. [44:09] And you were scared? [44:11] I was very scared.

[44:14] because I had no idea what was going on. That didn't sound good. Nobody told you anything. Nobody's telling me anything. I'm supposed to be in there. No one's coming out like here's what's happening. [44:23] It was like 10 minutes of just nothing. Yeah, and you were supposed to be in there after like, [44:27] A minute. [44:28] Yeah, it's going to be quick. Yeah. Yeah. It's supposed to be like, come on in. We're going to do this here, you know, and like you're awake during it, you know, in real life. [44:35] So just remember pacing down the hall. [44:38] Using... [44:39] Coming back to the lessons I've learned, just like it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. [44:44] That's what I remember saying to myself. [44:47] Just kind of trust that they know what they're doing. You know, we're in a hospital. There's a lot of doctors around. [44:52] And then eventually they came back and they just said, [44:55] that the epidural went the wrong direction and so instead of going down it went up your body and so [45:01] stopping your heart and lungs and they have to inhibit you and [45:05] do an emergency intubation and get the baby out and then took like an hour for you to come back. They were going to put you in ICU to help you come back. [45:12] So... [45:13] That was very scary because you weren't there. I don't know what was going on. [45:17] And you got to hold the baby for like an hour. Yeah. So that's why he's like a... [45:23] He's like... [45:25] Only Papa. [45:26] He's another person that [45:29] that prefers you. Who's the other person? Our dog. [45:33] you know because you're now for now you know you're sweet sweet guy but yeah it's uh yeah that was really scary stressful yeah because it's like it's gonna be okay yeah that was that was the thing to help but it was like very scary because it's just like

[45:45] life could be completely different now like something like [45:49] You know, like you could have, like the guy, the anesthesiologist said it was a one in 50,000 chance. [45:55] And it's like the worst scenario that is very rare and very... [45:59] dangerous. [46:00] And so... [46:02] It was extremely scary. And luckily he did a great job. And everyone's like, he killed it. He did like he. [46:07] He knew exactly what to do. He handled it really well. [46:10] Yeah. Yeah. [46:11] Yeah, and I don't have any memory. You don't remember this, yeah. It numbed my lungs, and I was like, I can't breathe. And then I numbed my spinal, what is it? [46:22] brainstem and then I passed out. [46:24] How about that? How about that? I didn't get to have any... Yeah. How does it... Looking back, are you... We don't have to talk about it. Okay. No, yeah. That's what you said, but it's interesting, too, like... [46:35] not have an experience around it and the experience was like the live experience yeah it's probably the scariest [46:42] moment in my life. Yeah. And I didn't, I wasn't, I didn't know anything about it. [46:47] because they put me under general anesthesia and then I was all loopy. And then I didn't even know really what. And then later I read the report, like months later I read it. [46:54] I actually had someone else read it who was in the field and she's like, [46:58] It was your cousin Lois and she like moved her thick glasses like, wow. Yeah, she's like a nurse back in the day. Anyway, stressful moment. [47:07] Yeah, so you used your tools. [47:10] Yeah, I use my tools. Otherwise, you know, that's a good point because it could have been like spiral. Like, oh, my God. We had a doula, but she had left. The doula was going to be there. But for cesarean, she's like, it can't be here. Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you a question, but unless you have something we want to follow up with. No, no.

[47:26] Okay, so you come up with these incredible charts. They're just like, you know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the internet. They're like, oh my god, that's so genius. And... [47:34] watching you come up with it. So, [47:36] wild because it just pops out of nowhere and then there's a little bit of variation and that's it. What's the process for you coming up with a chart and what's the environment that you need [47:46] to create your best work. I feel like coffee is a big part of it. Coffee is like, it's like not too much. There's one I have that it's like, I mean, it has to be the perfect amount of coffee. So I actually usually get a single shot. Do you know about the Bomber Peak, by the way, quick tangent? Okay. Okay. So there's a concept called the Bomber Peak. Yeah. [48:03] from xkcd which is just the right amount of alcohol where you're the most insightful and creative and then it falls down which is like i don't know i forget why this is steve bomber related but yeah so the bomber i have one like that about coffee but it's not it's made out of a little coffee straw and it's like [48:17] We're going to show this on YouTube if you're watching this so you can see the chart. It's like I'm a genius and then I'm having a panic attack. And so that's me is is like. [48:27] is like yeah i'll get to this point where i feel like i mean coffee is a drug right so if i have too much it is like a drug and i'm i feel like a genius and i'm like having all these ideas but then i think it's it's too like i don't know if this was a real image but there was [48:39] an image of spiderwebs and it's like this is a spiderweb [48:43] that ingested some... Right. LSD and stuff. I don't know. Yeah. And then this is a spider that had coffee. And it's like instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this. Like it's like just erratic and tangential. And I have some really good seeds of ideas in those moments. Then I have to go like scream into a pillow or something. Was that when you have too much coffee? That's when I have too much coffee. But if there's a point like right before that. So single shot latte. Single shot is what I get.

[49:12] Single shot latte, at least an hour. Sometimes it's good to have somewhere I have to be. [49:19] It's a time limit. And then I'm kind of like, I feel like a machine. [49:25] It's like trying really hard to get somewhere. And then the other thing is just like a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world. [49:32] like writing and then, [49:33] putting it trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing. So and [49:40] yeah when i was a kid my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like [49:44] you know, fractals and visualization and patterns. And so I sort of think that way. [49:50] like mathematically kind of in, um, [49:53] Yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea. [49:56] uh [49:57] that in the simplest way possible. [49:59] Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun. [50:04] So sweet. Oh. Yeah, this is like really nice. Yeah. [50:07] This is our Odessa moment. [50:10] Yeah. You're born in Hojessa too? No, but one of my questions was like, [50:16] I don't know. [50:17] This would be like if I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment versus a question. Pretending to be a question. Yeah, we're both, our families are both from countries that like, mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine, where people are always like, oh, does that like, like we didn't just arrive. Right. From Venezuela or Ukraine. So it's like not the same. Yeah. So we have to like almost make them feel like it's okay. I mean, my family still lives in Venezuela, but. Okay. So I asked you a question. Okay.

[50:46] Oh, that's back to you. OK, great. Well, no. OK, let me reflect back what you said, because this is really interesting. So a single shot. So it's like some kind of like. [50:54] neuro [50:56] Stimulation? I don't know. Single shot? Just enough? [50:59] I like this deadline piece. That was really interesting. It's like not too much time, not 30 minutes. [51:05] Although that can be why I'm [51:07] late optimism like i just i've almost got it i just you know i'm the time optimist as you know that i'm like i think i have it [51:16] and then but but a good good time is like two hours [51:20] And then... [51:21] I have to be somewhere in two hours. [51:24] Interesting. Okay, so those are two elements. And then was there another for optimal creativity? [51:30] Oh, a good night of sleep. [51:32] Yeah. Yeah. Because if you have the bad night of sleep plus too much caffeine. [51:37] then you don't have any, you know, you have no ideas. You just have the like frantic piece of the caffeine, the like, [51:43] - Mental energy. - Anything else? This is really interesting, I think. Just the idea of what creates creativity. - Just like experiences. [51:50] Experiences and thinking and almost like thinking too much about them. I like that. Maybe overthinking. [51:57] Right. Yeah. [51:58] Back to you, Michelle Rial. Oh, back to me, to you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So... [52:02] We did the Thunder Round. [52:04] We did that. [52:05] the the worst things to hear okay and the best sounds which your sons yeah laugh yeah yeah [52:12] agree do you okay we probably know your favorite like product management bugs do you have a favorite

[52:18] children's book other than mine to read to church for babies too and also like maple and also maybe you could you could do more than one because [52:27] that you know they like [52:29] Maybe there's one when it was a baby. [52:32] I feel like a chart is... [52:33] And you never take my ideas because I feel like you don't want to be your ideas. Yeah. But I feel like there's books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves. Yeah. Right. And that's like. [52:45] I hate reading this one, but he loves it. So we're going to do it. Yeah. So it's like he decides what his favorite are. I love John Klassen books. They're so like... [52:53] beautiful and just like [52:54] Sweet. [52:56] Are they sweet? [52:58] They're like actually not sweet. You're right. There's like death in all of them. Yeah, they all end in death. Yeah, like Jiu-Ti Nui is like, he ate the bunny. [53:07] This is the bear, the bear book. Yeah. Like he stole my hat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like we start the book and he's like, [53:13] Hey, the bunny. [53:15] Where's the bunny? Licking his belly. But is, yeah. Is there any, like, overlap? You think there's a favorite that you can see? [53:22] one is that's his favorite that you [53:24] now love because that you didn't love initially yeah like dr seuss [53:29] I think we've similarly feel it's like way too long as one. [53:33] Because it's like 50 pages, 60 pages. Like, come on. It's a lot of words. And there's just like all these made up. [53:38] animals and yeah and like he's like what's a zong yeah like there that's a zong you're like trying to teach them real things in the world and then he's like what was that tale of a song it's like what viper from vip yeah no yeah yeah i don't know i don't like that uh but we like but we like reading them we've kind of yeah there's like a rhythm well like anything in spanish i read to him obviously and

[54:00] Yeah. I mean, [54:01] Anything you want to say about like. [54:04] I don't know, is there any sort of like product [54:07] anything you've learned in product management or like growth that has translated to parenting you know like [54:15] Product management is... [54:17] all that influence and that's basically parenting that's why he likes you better why because i get influenced but you also have to make them do stuff you know yeah yeah they're like you do have authority you know [54:28] all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority. So... [54:33] It's easier. They have the authority. That's true. [54:37] Just like, no, you sit there. Yeah, I feel like I see your product management in that, like, you make him, like, I should be the one making him a chart, but you make him, like, the, like, [54:46] Here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like, here's how bedtime is going to go. We're going to read you three books. You get a start. [54:53] And then also I'm answering for you. Sorry. Other things where it's like things where it's. [54:59] where I'm kind of like, yeah, it just happens the way it's happened. You're like, no, I read a book on it. I read three books on it. And this is how we're going to do it. And and that's and it's going to work. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. [55:09] Right. [55:10] Yeah, I'm not like an intuition guy. I'm just like, what have the smartest people figured out about this? This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime. Right. Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night. Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's like, yeah, there's like smart people that have tried this stuff before. [55:26] Yeah. [55:27] And kids tell me what they've done. Small eye roll. And okay, so I guess this is, I think, my last question for you. And I don't know if you want to answer it, but.

[55:37] Like I, as your wife of however many years, like 10 years. [55:42] Still, I don't think I know what product management is. Can you tell me in five words? [55:47] Mm. [55:48] That's hilarious. Okay. My words are impact. [55:53] Collaboration. [55:56] Judgment. [55:57] Alignment. [56:01] And-- [56:02] This is a really good question. And it's almost like the order is like how you think about product management. Like, you know, it's like the order you put them in. And what else? [56:10] I'll just say some stuff because it's really interesting. Coordination. [56:15] I think it's five. [56:16] Organizing. [56:18] Lanning. [56:20] Okay. [56:21] outcomes i have just tuned out there's so many years like shut up so boring [56:26] And I'm just like, what should I have said? That's what I'm going to think about now. But it's like a crazy weird job, all these different things. [56:33] Yeah, I'm just like sniped. I want to keep thinking. Yeah, keep I'll give you my definition of product management. Yeah, you can't say mini CEO. No, no mini CEO. That's, that's not cool. Okay. Although I actually do think is PM is a mini CEO. Like I think. [56:45] People keep saying you're not, but I think you are. Yeah, you can't say like not a project manager. Yeah, not a project manager. That's right. I think the way I describe it is your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact by prioritizing and solving the most impactful problems. [57:02] business problems. [57:03] Something like that. [57:05] That's many words. Yeah. [57:07] you're like this is why i never know what it is it's so boring what are you talking about

[57:13] Cool. [57:14] Like this comes back to the mini-CO thing, just to close that thread. I feel like the PM on the team is basically should be thinking the way the CEO thinks. [57:21] Their job is to think, what would the CO... [57:24] do on this specific product or feature because the ceo's job is make the success they'll make this business grow and so your job as a pm is to kind of channel that but will allow this team [57:35] and product to help the business be more successful. [57:38] Do you feel like you're doing that as as the I guess you are [57:41] I'm everything, you know, like in my current world. You're editor in chief, too. [57:46] Editor-in-chief, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I have a copywriter of an editor, so I have help. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. People ask me what about product management helped me do the job I do now. I don't think there's anything, to be honest. [57:57] except just like things I was already into, which is just being very organized. [58:01] having a very high bar for quality, communicating. I think communication maybe is just like [58:07] how to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them. That's like... [58:12] Whoa, look at this. We're the same. [58:17] Introducing... Takiyah is just... [58:19] Communicating something simply. [58:22] Wow. [58:23] Well, let me ask you one more question. [58:25] So maybe it's to close. [58:27] He wrote two adult books. [58:29] You now did a children's book. [58:32] Why the pivot to children's books? Why did you decide to do a children's book? [58:36] I wanted to do a told book based on the first [58:40] adult book because i thought that [58:42] charts are so they're like a ton of early learning concepts put together

[58:48] So if you look at children's books, [58:51] there you know the themes are often opposites [58:55] colors, shapes, [58:57] feelings and then I just I was thinking like you can really [59:02] you can really teach a lot from a chart and it's, [59:05] So simple. [59:07] So it's a lot of opposites. It's big and small. [59:10] It's. [59:11] It's you've got going up and going down, you've got overlapping colors, [59:15] becoming another color you've got you can make a lot of feelings with with charts that's the second book in this series that [59:22] It's coming out next year. [59:24] Yeah, but we but yeah, I finished it, but it's, you know, it still takes [59:28] About a year. [59:29] to to come out after that but yeah it's it was this like uh i wanted to work on it in abstract like i had i had the thought of wanting to work on it but it didn't come until i started trying to work on another adult book [59:41] that i really just had all these rhymes in my head like i had it was more like a cadence i had just like this like you know in my head and and yeah i just tried it and it came really quickly the first draft [59:52] And yeah, and it also, yeah, I always wanted to make one because [59:56] As a little girl, my dad wanted me to, he was a geophysicist. [1:00:00] He wanted me to be strong at math. He was like, you know, because at the time it was kind of like girls – [1:00:05] um weren't encouraged necessarily to be good at math so he from just like a young age he was always showing me i did the same with our son too like always showing him [1:00:14] patterns and like, oh, if you flip it, it's like that. And [1:00:17] It's just really fun for me.

[1:00:18] then, [1:00:19] It's cool to... [1:00:21] writing the first one with like our son growing up learning from experience like I was saying like having the experiences of him as a baby and like how I'm learning how to teach him things then he gets a little older and then that helped me work on the feelings and I've also a [1:00:36] Learned how to speak to kids as well. [1:00:38] When I didn't have any, I was like, I don't know what to say to you. And now it feels more natural. [1:00:44] And so I had a children's book that I tried to write, [1:00:48] before I had kids. [1:00:49] And for me, that one wasn't as good. [1:00:52] And so, [1:00:54] I feel like I gained a little bit of just like how to talk to people. [1:00:58] child. [1:00:59] That's a really good like segue or not segue. I don't know. Connection to something that we've talked about a few times is. [1:01:04] The best stuff comes from like actual experience, because you had a children's book, like you said, that you wrote before you had food and then it wasn't good. And now having the experience, you can actually make something great. [1:01:15] Yeah. And then also like another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books. People always say if you want to write, read. [1:01:22] And we read a lot. We read a lot of a lot of books. [1:01:27] And it just got me in that zone. [1:01:29] too. [1:01:30] Yeah. [1:01:31] It just makes me think about something I think [1:01:34] has been key to my newsletter success is [1:01:37] It is based on like real life doing the thing like at this point, most of my post or guest posts where somebody sharing the best thing they've learned in their career, like the one thing they want to share, which I love. And it all comes from something I focus a lot on is from people on the ground doing the thing, not just floating in the clouds pontificating.

[1:01:56] End. [1:01:57] That's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. [1:02:01] You know, not just pontificating. [1:02:03] I think that's a really good, maybe one takeaway is just, [1:02:05] The best stuff comes from... [1:02:07] doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking you know what you're doing [1:02:11] Communicating it. [1:02:12] Simply. Simply? [1:02:14] And just like refining. You don't even get into just all the work that goes into refining. And then, yeah, you always talk about like, yeah, and another thing I do is like, I often, it's stressful because I make things and I'm not sure if they're good enough yet. And I put them to the side. [1:02:27] And then I come back and I might have an idea, knowing that it's already in my head, I might have an idea like, oh, yeah, that's what's going to make that better. Or I go to work on it again and some other thing adds to it. But then as you've set it aside, then you see something else. You see something in the world like, oh, shoot, somebody beat me to that thing I didn't ever do anything with. So that's stressful to have something sitting, maybe with your podcast. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'll answer for myself. [1:02:57] Like how many times do you like edit it and refine it? [1:03:00] uh depends yeah yeah it's like just what's like the median [1:03:04] At least five. Okay. Like for me, I think it's like... [1:03:07] 60. [1:03:09] I was going to say 100. Okay, that's probably the real answer. But I can't even physically do that. It's like I need, yeah. Yeah, it's just like. Well, what do you mean by? So like when I write a newsletter post, I go through it probably, let's say 50 times. [1:03:23] making it better. Like I start, there's like something that's the beginnings and then read through it and add to it, read through it, add to it, read through it, add to it, improve, improve, improve, improve.

[1:03:31] like 50 times. And then I have my editor go through it and I have a copy editor go through it and the designer helped me. You don't do that with your emails, though. [1:03:38] I know I should. I do do that with my emails, which is should be I shouldn't be doing that. [1:03:44] I read them over and over and over. I used to. [1:03:48] But no, I do. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. [1:03:50] Anything else? [1:03:51] Oh, I mean, yeah, let me, you plug, do you want to plug? Absolutely. When is it coming out? April 7th. April 7th. So it's like a few weeks, I think, from when this comes out. Assuming this comes out. Yeah. We'll see how it turns out. We're going to check it out. We'll check it out. If you're seeing this, we've checked it out. Yeah. It was a success. It was okay. So Charts for Babies coming out April 7th. [1:04:11] April 7th. April 7th. Yeah. All your favorite retailers. [1:04:15] Yep. [1:04:16] Local bookstores. Local bookstores. Wherever you buy your book. What's the age range of kids? It's two to four. It's called for babies. I did do it. [1:04:23] a tart recently about like how long is your baby a baby? [1:04:26] and, [1:04:27] And yeah, it's like, [1:04:29] Baby, is this... [1:04:31] infant is like one to two and then it's like it's your baby infinity [1:04:35] Yeah, so I've noticed like we still call him the, not really anymore, but like the baby. Oh, for sure. Yeah, but he's like almost three. And so, yeah, it could be like, I would say zero to four or... [1:04:46] Yeah. [1:04:47] You know what? [1:04:48] Should I grab it? Yeah. Let's grab it. Let's just break the frame. People on the recording here, but the first, like, the end paper is what this is called. It shows all the, like... [1:04:58] things you can learn sizes shapes lines numbers directions feelings colors amounts sharing concepts relationships opposites anyway i'm not good at self-promotion clearly so let's all stop it yeah it's uh it's it's a lot of learning

[1:05:11] It's beautiful. It's hilarious. It's clever. It's early learning concept. It's simply illustrated. Check it out. [1:05:19] It rhyming. Well, you do. Yeah. [1:05:20] Congrats on releasing this book. Thank you. It was a lot of work. Thanks. It was a lot of work. [1:05:25] I did have a lot of iterations. The secret to success. [1:05:28] Yeah. Iteration, editing. [1:05:31] editing. Spending more time is what your old boss used to say. Spend more time on it. Spend more time. Vlad. Yeah. [1:05:36] Anyway. Okay. All good? We done? [1:05:40] Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'll ask you my typical questions I ask at the end. Where do people find you online? [1:05:48] How can listeners be useful to you? My website, michellereal.com, R-I-A-L, or I'm also on Instagram, not too much these days, but still a little bit. You can look for the book, Charts for Babies. [1:05:59] Yeah, I don't know when this will be out. You can either pre-order it or order it. [1:06:03] Great. One of the, yeah. [1:06:07] Parentheses free, but order. Yeah. Okay, Michelle, thanks for being here. And I hope you... [1:06:11] like it and [1:06:13] Thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. I know you have a high bar. [1:06:16] Absolutely. [1:06:17] You hit it. Okay, great. And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview. [1:06:22] A plus. [1:06:24] It's going to do numbers. All right, let's get out of here. Okay, bye everyone.

[1:06:44] You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast dot com. [1:06:49] See you in the next episode.