The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway (Part 4)

[00:00] These long dog days of summer, I mean, we just made it through a heat wave. Mama was parched through this heat wave. I was hitting up Dunkin' every single day, and I will continue to probably for the rest of my days, but especially this summer. Dunkin' is helping everyone stay cool this summer with its lineup of refreshers. These drinks are packed with bold, fruity flavors and served ice cold. It's amazing. Dunkin' refreshers are the perfect afternoon pick-me-up. I like to [00:30] back for a second one because I'm just feeling crazy. They come in a variety of delicious flavors, including fan favorites, mango pineapple and strawberry dragon fruit. And then for a limited time, there's black cherry and there's pink pineapple. I'm going to tell you something right now. And it's a bold claim, let me tell you, but I stand behind it. Pink pineapple will change your life. It is so good. It has me feeling like I'm sitting in a pool resort side, just living, [01:00] Try your favorite flavor with green tea, sparkling water, lemonade, or Dunkin's all-new Limeade. I haven't tried the Limeade yet, but I'm going to. Usually I get my drinks made with green tea. And occasionally lemonade, but I do really like the green tea. Or, or, if you don't want to build your own, try one of Dunkin's curated refreshers, like the Cherry Lime Ricky or the Ultimate Pink Daydream. The Cherry Lime Ricky, mmm, scrumptious. I could drink like three of these a day. They're so freaking yummy. Head to Dunkin' today and find your favorite refresher.

[01:30] Dunkin' Refreshers contain less than 1% fruit juice. Limited time offer. [01:36] When it comes to online college, Southern New Hampshire University is so good, it's scary. Listen, the facts don't lie. SNHU has degree programs that fit your goals, online classes that fit your life, and real support at every step. And if that wasn't enough, they've got some of the lowest online tuition rates in the U.S. This is an airtight case, you guys. Visit snhu.edu slash morbid to get started. That's snhu.edu slash morbid. [02:04] Chilling crime cases are mysterious, but finding coverage shouldn't be. With the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you have options and can personalize your plan to help create an affordable price so you can get back to cracking all of life's bigger cases. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the [02:34] availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. [02:41] Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. [02:59] I've been here before. We have been here before. And just right off the bat,

[03:04] uh this i've decided to combine the last two episodes into one giant episode you're about to get the biggest episode of all time uh because i know sometimes you're like i just want to hear the like i want to know how this pans out and i want to see him caught because you guys know he gets caught i'm actually excited for myself because while i would have been down for either yeah i really want to hear about him getting caught because i hate him that's the thing so when i was going through this and i was [03:30] I was separating it out into the last two episodes. I said, well, this episode, episode four, technically, is going to be a lot of more, you know, some more victims. And it's kind of going to be... [03:42] more of like a, you know, a bummer and like, and by the end of it, I was like, [03:47] I'm not given the payoff, which is like, get this fucker caught. And I was like, I feel like I don't want to leave you hanging over a whole weekend being like, I don't wait this long. She's thoughtful. It's my gift from me to you because it's going to be a long one because you can hear him get caught. So I combined them. [04:02] So hopefully that is to your liking. I love that one. [04:06] And I know... [04:08] that the episodes have not been going up at the exact same time that they normally have recently. We have not switched schedules or anything like that. [04:19] And, you know, we've just had we one we've had some like stuff like private stuff that has been going on that like kind of took up a little bit of our time. Everything's OK. Everything's fine. But it took up some mental space and some time.

[04:38] time or giving you older episodes. [04:40] We wanted to give you these fresh episodes, but that meant that they had to come out a little later than expected, because on top of all that... [04:47] Mikey has moved to Canada. So we are having like a different production situation here that we're all kind of adjusting to now. [04:55] And so it was just like a whole bunch of things compounding on top of each other that made it so episodes had to come out instead of early in the morning on the day they come out. It came out later that night. But they still came out on the same day. And... [05:08] This will not be a consistent thing going through. Like, we're not going to be releasing them later on in the day now. No, we're getting back to the OG. That wasn't like a... [05:18] It just kind of happened a couple of times. But yeah, from now on, it'll be the same that you've been used to for a while. What is it, Mondays and Thursdays? Yeah, which we've maintained just later in the day. Yeah. But now on, I think you guys usually get them at like 3 a.m. or something on those days. Yeah, I think they post at 3 a.m. like that day. We'll be going back to that kind of thing where it's earlier in the day. So when you're going off to work in the morning, you have it and all that. Because I know that that gets put into people's schedules, and we appreciate that we're part of your... [05:48] routine. Yeah, no, it's cool. So we appreciate that. And it'll stay like that. And if they do have to be later. [05:55] We'll let you guys know if something happens to come up. We don't foresee that happening often at all. But you can't plan emergencies. Yeah, life happens. We honestly didn't know if you guys wanted to hear if they were going to be later in the day. We just didn't know if that was like.

[06:10] annoying to hear. We never knew... [06:14] Is that annoying to hear that it's going to be later? Like, do you care? Is that like weird? But now we know you care. Yeah. And we appreciate that. No, it's cool again. Because again... [06:22] being part of your routine and part of your day. [06:24] is pretty cool. I can't believe we're driving to work together right now. I'm glad we're driving to work together. So... [06:30] Now that we know you would like to be in the know. [06:32] We'll keep you in the know. Okay? We're all homies here, right? Exactly. So I'm glad we all had this discussion. It was good to talk to you. And, like, you know, one-on-one. And everything's okay over here. We've just, like... [06:42] There's just been a few things that popped up like privately that just were like, here's the thing. Sitting in the ether. I'm going to go ahead and say it and my woo-woo people will feel me and my anti-woo-woos will be like, shut up, girl. Honestly, I'm on board with this. But you're half woo-woo. You're like a... I'm on board with this. Yeah. [06:59] This Mercury retrograde has been kicking us directly in the asshole. [07:05] Over and over again. Like dead recordings. Missing. Like machines just failing and dying. Lost documents. Poor communication with everyone in the world. And just like... [07:22] it's been bad but you know what [07:25] It's looking up. Yeah. I've had appointments that I thought were going to be like one hour turn into like way longer. I've had. Well, Mercury's just been Mercurying. Yeah. Mercury is bullshit right now. But you know what? [07:37] We're getting through it. It's over, I think, July 23rd. So we're like...

[07:42] We're nearing the end. Let's all hang in. There's only like a little over a week left. Hold hands. We're all going to be in this together. Don't touch my hands. Figurative hands. Yeah. Like figuratively for sure. Like through the thing. Yeah. She's like, nobody's touching you. Yeah. I was going to say, I'm not touching anybody. So. And vice versa. And vice versa. [08:01] Yeah, I think I'm trying to think of anything else. Don't. Please just tell us the story. Just tell the story. Yeah. Not to be rude, but like, no, shut up. No business. I need to know. Tell me the goddamn story. Get into it. All right. You know what? No business. Buy the Butcher Legacy. Oh, no, no, no. That I'll let you. You were like, hey, I was going to plug my other really important project. No, it's okay. You guys know. No, no, no. Buy the Butcher Legacy. Because we're, baby, we're going on tour soon. We are. We're going on a little book tour. [08:31] I don't know if you heard she's doing a live signing. Yeah. And somebody from in Maryland gave me a little message and said from one awkward introvert to another. I'm very excited to meet you in Maryland. And I said, I love that. That's the energy right there. I'm excited that I've been to Maryland before. Yeah, it'll be fun. I've been in a district of it. I went there. I went there for a ghost concert. [08:54] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was great. [08:57] Wait, in Maryland? Yeah, Baltimore. [09:00] Oh, shit. You're right. Look at me questioning where you've been. I was going to, you look, you were like, I'm going to get you. I really thought so. I really did. No, I saw where. I was mad at you because we didn't get to the story. I saw Poe's grave. [09:09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fucking cool. Yeah. Remember that restaurant that we went to that in New York that.

[09:15] Poe used to write in or something? Or drink in the cellar? Yeah, he actually wasn't doing any business there. He was just drinking. Maybe he was writing. Just like fucked up shit. Maybe. Just, you know. [09:29] You never know. It's lunch. [09:30] who knows i don't know his life you do i don't know his life all right uh now can i let you to get it yeah now you can tell me all right let's go all right i just i have never listened to a pot about this story or about this case [09:43] like at all. So I know like bits just from being like into true crime, but yeah, [09:49] This is one of the wildest cases we've ever covered. Oh, yeah. And just just wait until they get him. Yeah, I've been I've been because he's it's not like he's out here. [09:59] Just a quiet little church mouse not saying the worst things that somebody could possibly say. Really? Don't go into it thinking that. Because... [10:06] He's a diabolical little bitch. Oh, man. I mean, I had a feeling. I want to punch him right in his fucking face. Is he alive still? He sure is. Let's punch him. Yeah. Honestly, let's go punch him. Can we get like a... [10:17] They should allow a line to line up and punch him in the face. Yeah. Every day. Only women. Yeah. Let women punch Gary Ridgeway. Yeah. 2026. Let's go. I needed a new slogan for this year. We'll make a sticker. Yeah. [10:31] As the investigation entered its fourth year in 1986, the task force was still no closer to finding out who was doing this. But with a killer so prolific, what they did have was... [10:45] was...

[10:46] Many more victims to discover. Yeah. They were not done yet. Not by a long shot. Oh, man. So on the night of September 12th, 1983, 19-year-old Tracy Winston had just bailed out of King County Jail in downtown Seattle. She was there on a loitering charge, and she was walking down Cherry Street when a cab driver that she knew pulled up beside her. [11:07] Tracy needed a ride to the place that she was staying in North Seattle and he asked this cab driver who she knew. [11:14] if he could drive her. And he was like, yeah, totally. He's like, I just have a fare to pick up really quick. [11:19] I'm headed in the other direction. He said, I'll be back in 45 minutes. Stay here and I'll see that you get where you need to go safely. Very nice guy. Okay. By the time he came back, Tracy was gone. I had a feeling it was going to go that way. Yeah. Tracy's path that led to her disappearance was both like and not like many of the other victims. She'd grown up in a very stable, loving family with parents who adored her and whom she adored back. [11:49] that a lot of teenagers do. There was also some complex family dynamics, absolutely nothing abusive or anything like that. [11:56] Just some stuff that families go through. We all have that. You know, from that point on, Tracy's relationship with her parents, especially her mother, Murdy, was like challenging. Okay. Yeah. [12:06] When she reached her late teens, Tracy... [12:09] Fell in love with an older boy whose own sister... [12:12] described him as a con man. Awesome. He was manipulative, emotionally abusive, and demanding.

[12:20] And her mother recalled she would do anything he asked. And she was gone all the time, anywhere but home, because he wouldn't let him call her. [12:27] What the hell? Yeah. Of course, the more Tracy's parents tried to keep them apart, the more it drove them together. Yep. One day she ran away and moved in with this older boy. Despite the family's very intense objections to this, it seemed there wasn't a lot they could do to convince her to come back home. Yeah. Yeah. [12:47] Again, must be the most helpless feeling in the entire world. I can't imagine. The last time the Winstons saw their daughter was Mother's Day, 1983. Oh, that's awful. The visit was good. [12:58] But Tracy was careful with what she did and didn't tell her parents. Her mother said, I don't know if she was ever prostituting. I can't imagine that it was a regular thing for her. [13:09] On the night that Tracy was arrested for loitering, she called her parents from jail and told them what happened. But she also begged them not to come pick her up. [13:17] Because she said, I don't want you to see me in here. Not like this. Which... [13:22] That's heartbreaking in and of itself. [13:25] When three months had passed without any word from Tracy, her mother reported her missing. [13:30] She said, I knew it was going to be bad. I wouldn't accept it in my heart, but I knew. [13:34] Yeah. She just like [13:37] She'd just gone out on her own and she was just kind of floating around. What Murty Winston didn't know was how long it would take before she would actually get answers to the mystery of her daughter's disappearance. [13:48] On March 27, 1986, Tracy's skeletal remains were discovered in Cottonwood Grove Park.

[13:54] Which is not far from the Green River. Okay. It appeared to investigators that the remains had been placed in the park, but animals had clearly scattered them around the area and the skull was missing. Oh. Although Tracy was on the task force list of missing women, her remains would go unidentified until 1999. Jesus. Yes. [14:14] And that was when DNA technology made it possible for investigators to conclusively identify her. [14:21] Weirdly, Tracy's skull remained missing, too, until the fall of 2005. [14:26] when a hiker found it in a wooded area off Highway 18 near Issaquah, southeast of Seattle. [14:33] That's weird. This was also a place where Ted Bundy used to [14:37] Dumb. [14:38] victims. [14:39] Issaquah and I think like Taylor's Matt Taylor Mountain. Yeah. I believe it was. Yeah. [14:47] So is that animal scattering it that far? Or did they think he held on to it and disclosed of it? They don't know. That's the thing. So like the discovery of this skull so long after... [14:57] They had found all the other bits of the remains. Yeah. It is still kind of a mystery because there were no other bones found in the area or any indication of how it made its way there. Yeah. [15:07] So, yeah. [15:08] Detective Tony McNabb told a reporter in 2005, our assumption is that a hiker or a hunter found and for whatever reason didn't want to call the police, found it and for whatever reason didn't want to call the police and set it alongside the dirt road so someone else could report it. It's quite some distance from any area where we found any other remains.

[15:29] Even that's a strange explanation. And also the more I was sitting here thinking about it, it's like, [15:34] Why would animals move like animals obviously move bones while they're decomposing to get something? And they usually move things that are easier to move, not a skull. Yeah. That's not easy for an animal to. There's not a lot that they can grip onto. Right. They usually pick up something they can pick up in their mouth. Yeah. That's that's weird. Right. That to me feels like he disposed of it later and kept it for some reason. That's the thing. I'm like, what happened there? [16:00] And he never said? No. He hasn't said what happened there. Weird. [16:05] Now, including Tracy Winston, only three victims were discovered in 1986, all in the spring. [16:11] On May 2nd, a little over one month after Tracy's remains were found, an employee of Echo Glen Children's Center. [16:18] was searching around Highway 18 for a runaway teenager when they came upon various human bones that appeared as though they'd been sitting in the woods off the road for a bit of time. The remains turned out to be the incomplete skeleton of Maureen Feeney, a 19-year-old who went missing on September 23, 1983. [16:36] The autopsy revealed nothing of use to investigators, but... [16:40] Because of the circumstances, Maureen was added to the list as the 35th Green River victim. My God. And it was because of the location of the discovery and because she's a female, quote unquote. Maureen Feeney turned out to be one of the atypical victims in that she wasn't involved in sex work or another type of employment that would have.

[17:00] really put her as very accessible to the Green River Killer. That said, she had grown up with very low self-esteem and had struggled with some psychological stuff as a teenager, which might have made her a little more psychologically vulnerable to the advances of an older man. Okay. In January 1983, Maureen got a job working with children at the Eastside Christian School, and she found a small in-law apartment just outside of Bellevue, Washington. Okay. [17:25] Through the job and, you know, her newfound independence, Maureen started flourish and even started socializing. Like her confidence was coming up. That's great. Going to clubs, you know, going on dates. Like having a time. Being young. Being 19. Yeah. Unfortunately, her life was disrupted in late summer when her landlord informed her that a relative was moving into the apartment. So she was going to have to leave. Which is like crazy. [17:47] fucked up yeah that's kind of shitty yeah the movement she would also have to leave her job [17:53] Now, that August, she managed to find a new apartment in Seattle's Central District, and she found a new job at a daycare center nearby. Okay. She even started dating someone new and was considering moving in with her new boyfriend to California. Okay. Then on September 28th, just one week before her 20th birthday, Maureen disappeared. [18:12] When a few days passed and no one had heard from her, her parents reported her missing to the Seattle police. But because she wasn't a fit for the Green River victim profile, she wasn't added to the missing list. [18:23] Three years later, her boyfriend came forward and told police that on the evening of September 28th, Maureen told him she was going out to 7-Eleven.

[18:31] He told detectives, I fell asleep after she left and didn't wake up until about 11 that night. She never came back. [18:37] It's unclear why it took three years to report years to speak to police. But there's some reason to believe that he may have been pushing her into more risky behaviors to make money. All right. But she had a job. Yeah. [18:54] Maybe he wanted. Maybe he didn't. [18:56] Okay. Just prior to her disappearance, Maureen's employer noticed, quote, a notable personality change. And she even went as far as to tell her boss that, quote, she wouldn't be needing a job for very long because she was coming into money. [19:11] Her boyfriend also told detectives he thought Maureen might have been looking for a new job since he'd found a newspaper wantad section with various exotic dancing jobs circled. [19:22] and the name Bob written in the margin of the page. Huh. According to Maureen's mother, she was, quote, a proud girl and a proud individual who wanted to stand on her own, but she vehemently rejected the idea that her daughter would have considered sex work as a means of supporting herself. [19:38] Whatever the case, something had put Maureen in the path of the Green River Killer, and she had unfortunately met the same fate. [19:45] Now, a month later, in just a few miles from where Maureen's remains were discovered, another set of skeletal remains were found in the woods. [19:52] Using dental records collected by the task force, the ME was able to identify them as those of Kimberly Nelson, also known as Tina Nelson and Star Nelson.

[20:03] Kimberly grew up in Ann Arbor, but after dropping out of high school in the 11th grade, she made her way to Seattle. And by 1983, she was the sole financial support for her pimp slash boyfriend. Why are these men not going out to make money? It's always just some loser man here. It really is. Like, just fuck it. Get a job. In October 1983, Kimberly was picked up on a prostitution charge and served a short sentence in the King County Jail. [20:29] and was released on the afternoon of October 31st. [20:33] The last person to see Kimberly was her friend Paige, who told police she saw Kimberly getting into a red pickup truck with a man, a white man with dark hair. [20:42] And she said Star wasn't afraid of anyone. She would get in a car with anyone. She was so confident she could take care of herself. That's so sad to think that. [20:52] That like was like a false confidence. You know that like she probably could take care of herself. But this fucker just there's some people that's an unstoppable force. Exactly. Exactly. [21:01] Assuming Kimberly disappeared and was likely killed on October 31st, that meant she went missing less than a day after Missy Plager was disappeared. Wow. A few days later, Paige was working out by the strip when the man in the red truck pulled up beside her. [21:15] And I guess he said, didn't you hang with that tall blonde girl? [21:20] And she said the question felt very menacing. Yeah. She immediately was like freaked out by him. The man offered her money to get in the truck with him. But Paige said, no, thank you. All set. She reported Kimberly missing and gave the description of the man to the police, which like, yeah, Paige. Good for her. That's kind of the thing I was wondering. And you and I talked about it off air. Just like.

[21:41] he keeps going back to these similar spots. So it's like women are... [21:47] kind of catching on to you a bit here. But also on the same token, one, he's still doing it. And two, it shows what dire straits these women were in. Yeah. Because people were aware that there was a serial killer trolling these areas. And they had to still put themselves at risk. But they had to do this job because they needed the money so desperately. And like, [22:07] To think of that desperation and then the end that they met is so heartbreaking. Because a lot of times they're also involved with these men slash pimps. [22:17] that, [22:19] make it so they don't have a choice. [22:20] It's not like they can just stop. These men are dangerous. They want their money. And you're going to go make that money. And they don't give a shit if you're going to get... [22:29] you could possibly be in trouble. Because that's the thing that also needs to be pointed out is these pimps and these quote-unquote boyfriends, I hate to even call them that in certain cases, were also well aware that there's a serial killer operating in the area. And they don't give a shit. No. [22:44] How are you? It's crazy. [22:46] How are you that detached from a person? What's crazy, too, is as we'll find out, Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer. [22:55] He had access to several different cars at this point, which is why sometimes you'll hear a red pickup truck. Sometimes you'll hear a blue one, a green one. [23:05] Sometimes his car would be broken down, so he'd use a family members, and they all match up. But always a truck. Yep. It's interesting, and I'm glad that you just said that, because I think in part one, I said, like, oh, a green pickup truck? And you were like, actually, no, a blue. And in my head, I was like, I thought he drove a green pickup truck. Don't worry. That's going to make a lot more sense later. Okay. Yeah.

[23:25] Because you were... [23:26] I'm not wrong. Could be both. Okay. So Paige had reported Kimberly missing and gave the man's description, but nothing came of it. [23:34] And the next time anyone saw Kimberly Nelson, she was little more than bones carelessly thrown in the woods by the side of the highway. That's so sad. More than a year passed without any new victims or discoveries of old ones. [23:46] Then on June 27, 1987, the task force was presented with both. [23:51] That afternoon, the remains of 17-year-old... [23:55] Cindy Smith, who worked as an exotic dancer. [23:59] They were found in a wooded area just off Highway 18 in Auburn. Cindy lived on and off with her parents in a suburb of Tacoma, [24:07] But she frequently hitchhiked back and forth to any of the places she performed in the clubs. When she failed to return home on March 21st, 1984, they reported her missing and Cindy's name was added to the list. [24:20] If the date she went missing can serve as, you know, the same date as her death, that made Cindy Smith the most recent Green River victim, having been killed six weeks after the murder of Mary West. Okay. Following the discovery of her remains, a full year passed before the next victim was discovered in the late spring of 1988. But this time, it wasn't a more recent victim, but a very early one. [24:44] Deborah Estes had just celebrated her birthday. [24:50] 15th. [24:51] birthday when she disappeared on September 20, 1982.

[24:57] She had grown up pretty fast and had already run away from home several times by that point, each time worrying her mother sick. [25:04] One relative said many years later, life was a game to Debra. By July 1982, Debra had run away so many times that her parents had stopped reporting it, assuming... [25:15] It was just no good. And she would eventually come back. I mean, it's awful. But like when you're young, you don't life is a game in a way, you know, like you just don't think of the consequences. Like I think about. [25:25] the shit i did at 15 my god yeah and that's and like them not reporting her each time she ran away is not to suggest that they didn't care no want her to return it was actually quite the opposite they were just out of ideas and exhausted well you have to think and i hate to say it but like they probably weren't treated great every single time they reported her i'm sure no because people didn't like the police didn't care about runaways back then no [25:49] So [25:50] So that summer, they learned that Debra was spending most of her time with an older friend, a girl named Becky, who had an apartment in the Rainier Vista housing project. Sorry. They figured that if nothing else, Debra had a roof over her head and was likely safe. [26:04] They were unfortunately wrong. By the fall, Deborah had started dating an older man who turned out to be a pimp. [26:11] He and Debra began living out of motels, staying a few days until they ran out of money, then moving on. Remember, she's 15. Yeah, newly 15. Remember, she's 15. And this is a disgusting individual who's with her. That's a pedophile. The rooms were paid for with the money that Debra made through sex work.

[26:29] But that all came to an end when Debra went missing on September 20th. So she was being trafficked. Yeah. Let's call it what it is. Yeah, that's actually exactly what you should say. [26:38] When they hadn't heard from her in a few days, Deborah's parents reported her missing to the police. [26:43] They explained the situation and that they suspected she might be supporting herself and her boyfriend through sex work. [26:48] But each time the officers checked the reports, they found no arrest records for anyone with the name Debra Estes, not for prostitution or anything else. They had no way of knowing that while Debra had no police record, 15-year-old Betty Lorraine Jones had been picked up for prostitution at least four times in recent months. Had anyone known that Debra and Betty Jones were the same person... [27:12] investigators would have at least known where to begin looking for the missing teenager. But things being what they were, there was no way for anyone to cross-reference the names or make any connection. Mm-hmm. [27:23] In a case full of nothing but tragedy and outrage, the story of Deborah Estes is perhaps... [27:30] Among the most tragic. Just a few months before she went missing, Deborah had been picked up. This one, like, really is going to get you. [27:40] A few months before she went missing, Debra had been picked up on the strip by a white man driving a blue and white truck. [27:47] The man kidnapped Deborah at gunpoint and drove her out to the middle of the woods where he sexually assaulted the child and hit her in the face with his gun before tying her up and leaving her in the woods.

[27:59] She managed to untie herself and ran to the nearest house where the homeowners called the police. [28:05] When they took the report, Debra described the man and the truck and gave them the fake name she'd been using. [28:13] There's no way of knowing whether the first assault had been committed by the Green River killer. [28:17] But the description of the man in the truck is exactly him. [28:22] So they had to sit there now and say... [28:25] Had he let Deborah go only to come back and kill her? Get her again? [28:31] Like, [28:32] Sounds like that might have been the case. Yeah, very much does. What the fuck? And months. Yeah. Like to let months go by. Just months. And also to think that her shitbag of a boyfriend, quote unquote, still knew that she went through that and just sent her right back to the streets to do it again. Yeah, he didn't care. [28:50] He wants his money. [28:51] Holy shit. [28:52] And, [28:54] I'll give you a little hint for the end here. [28:57] It's entirely possible that this happened and that Gary Ridgway didn't even know that she was the same person because he states himself that. [29:05] he doesn't even remember half of these girls' faces. That's nice. And he said, I didn't know most of their names. And then at one point he says, like, I literally didn't care. I don't care about them. [29:15] Wow. Like that's his attitude later. [29:18] He's like, why the fuck would I care? [29:20] So it's entirely possible that he picked up Deborah, did this to her, and then happened to pick her up again and had no idea that he had done it. [29:29] Because I'm sure he's done this to other women and young girls. Well, and then you have to wonder, like...

[29:33] Did he change his appearance slightly? And was he driving a different vehicle? Yeah. That's why she trusted to get into it. Exactly. That's so. You don't know. Like, what are the fucking odds? Or did he kidnap her again? Yeah. Well, that's the thing. He kidnapped her in the first place. Right. [29:49] Now, Deborah's name was among the first to go on the task force list of missing women. And Dave Reichert and Faye Brooks spent weeks interviewing hundreds of people who might have come in contact with her around the time she went missing. But it all amounted to nothing. [30:03] Her parents and friends had no information that the detectives could really use, and her pimp-slash-boyfriend denied anything. [30:12] anything like he didn't know anything about her disappearance or her sex work, telling the investigators, I warned her that being out on the streets was dangerous. [30:20] But you sent her out on the streets to make you money. Yeah, but he's not going to say that. Useless in every sense of the word. The mystery of Debra's disappearance was finally solved on May 30th, 1988, when a construction crew clearing a field near the Panther Lake Elementary School. Jesus Christ. I don't know if you're noticing this, but suddenly he's dumping bodies near places where children are. Yeah, I have been noticing that. [30:42] he turned up something unexpected. Yeah. [30:45] A worker was digging postholes in the earth when he turned up what appeared to be a large rock. But when he reached down and pulled the object out of the hole, he realized it was in fact a human skull. [30:56] The discovery caused all the work in the area, obviously, to come to a stop, and the task force and a forensic team was brought out to remove the remains and search the area for any other victims.

[31:07] A few days later, just as he'd done a dozen of times before, [31:11] Bill Hagelin from the ME's office. Bill is working overtime. For real. He managed to identify the remains through dental records and they were those of Deborah Estes. That's so sad. Now, the last set of remains to be discovered in the 1980s were those of Andrea Childers, who went missing in 1983 at the age of 19. [31:30] Andrea had grown up in California but moved to Seattle in 1983 to live with her mother and her stepfather. Her grandmother recalled she wanted to be a dancer. She gave lessons and she was very good. Andrea arrived in Washington on March 29th and just two weeks later she was gone. [31:47] The last time anyone saw her, she was waiting for a bus downtown. [31:51] So initially, Andrea's name was added to the task force list of missing women. But then about a year after she went missing, Canadian border authorities reported that someone with that name crossed the border into British Columbia. Oh, based on that, it was assumed that she was alive. So she was removed from the list. Turned out that it could have just been a double name. [32:12] on October 11th, 1989... [32:15] Human bones were discovered out by the SeaTac airport, just a few hundred feet from where the remains of Constance, now own, and Kelly Ware's remains were discovered in 1983. [32:25] Using dental records, the remains were quickly identified as Andrea Childers. She'd likely been there the entire time the task force and search team combed the lot when the bodies were first discovered in 1983.

[32:39] Task Force member Bob Evans said, we walked right over Andrea Childer's body where it was found. I mean, it just didn't even know. We had experts, our top people, even bloodhounds. [32:49] That's crazy. [32:51] And they do believe that they missed it. Yeah, they think that she'd been there the whole time. [32:55] Interesting. Yeah. By 1990, signs that the killer was still active were becoming fewer and farther between. In the spring, when the weather got warmer, sex workers returned to the streets in larger numbers than before. [33:08] Because it kind of felt like the danger was gone again. Spokane Police Lieutenant Jim Hill said, that's disturbing because if this guy's still in town, and we have to assume he is. [33:18] then there's no reason to think he won't hit again. [33:21] As one of the few remaining members of the task force, Hill was invested in the case and like the others... [33:26] He was determined to see it through to the end. [33:29] The problem was, after nearly a decade chasing the Green River killer, the task force was no closer to catching him than they ever had been. In fact, by that point in the investigation, there were nearly... [33:40] 600 possible suspects. Whoa. And none of them are really compelling. [33:47] How do you have 600 non-cooked? Yeah. Also, it's that many... [33:51] Fuckers. Yeah, for real. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. [33:55] Hill said, we've had people we've paid a lot of attention to, but we wouldn't call them a suspect. [34:01] Music

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[35:48] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a state farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. [35:58] State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you, so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to connect with a local agent and get a quote. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. [36:21] Music [36:27] Now, to make matters worse for the task force, the election of a new sheriff in King County, James Montgomery, brought a new pair of eyes on the budget and a new set of priorities. [36:38] In a statement to the press, Montgomery said he was, quote, not real encouraged about the case being resolved. [36:44] He said the longer the case languishes, the less likely we are to resolve it. [36:49] So his solution was to reassign several of the task force members to other duties with a plan to reassign them permanently as soon as possible. [36:57] So we're just gonna get rid of the task force? Yeah, it's just reassigning a bunch of them. Gonna ignore the problem? And despite... [37:05] what feels like a defeat at this point the remaining because i'm sorry he's just like yeah we can't figure it out so we're gonna stop trying yeah why keep trying you know bro what yeah you'll see in the dialogue with the devil documentary on hulu that i've talked about like that talks about the ted i want to watch that uh bill kraski one of the task force members said they had asked for more money at one point and one of them looked at him and said and i quote

[37:30] Why? It's just a bunch of hookers, isn't it? [37:34] Bro. And Bill Kraske, and he was like, [37:36] Fuck you. [37:37] It's a bunch of women, children. He was like pissed. He was like that bothered me a lot. Like you're talking about 14, 15, 16 children. And young ass women. And he even said back to them, look, he said, yeah, my response was, well, yeah, and they're human beings, too. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? [37:56] Wow. Can you imagine just being that careless? So the task force members gave a shit. It was people in the higher up positions that were the ones that were throwing up roadblocks. I mean, think about the years that the task force dedicated to this and then to be told. I can't imagine having worked on this case for years and years and years and then just being like, well, go do this now. Well, and a new sheriff coming in and being like, fuck that. [38:18] Like, I'd be like, fuck you. Yeah. What do you mean? You just get to take this position. But if you want to keep your job, you have no choice. That's so fucked. Yeah. [38:26] But the remaining members vowed to continue to plug away at this case. They were not being deterred. It reminds me of True Detective. Yeah, it really does. Now, as spring turned to summer, the Green River Task Force, once 40 members strong... [38:39] was cut from four members down to two. [38:43] Two? [38:45] Dave Reichert and Faye Brooks. [38:47] I mean, bad bitches, but two? [38:51] You're leaving this massive case where we have over 30 women and children, let's be real, who are killed. [38:59] murdered [39:00] And you're leaving it up to two people to solve it.

[39:03] Which I have faith in those two people. That's not me saying I don't. Are you fucking kidding me? That was in the summer. [39:10] Then in September, you weren't even done yet. No. Then in September, they just disbanded it altogether. [39:18] What the fuck? Yeah. So where do we go from here? With the King County Council, the same one that told them, wasn't it just a bunch of hookers? [39:25] citing the significant cost and lack of progress. [39:29] Yeah, it costs money sometimes. You're not finding anything, so fuck it. [39:33] Who cares about these women? [39:35] So with the task force now essentially defunct. Ridiculous. The cases were reassigned to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. And then just as everyone was starting to wonder whether the Green River Killer had indeed moved on and this was all... [39:49] Yeah, I guess we're just... [39:51] And I love that they were like, you know, maybe he moved on. Maybe that's it. And it's like, yeah, do you still want to investigate the women that are missing? Right. And are it done for them? Maybe, I don't know. Like, we're just going to let him move on. Let it be someone else's problem. And there's been multiple times in this case where they're like, maybe he moved on and he didn't. So I think history tells us this motherfucker sticks around, unfortunately. [40:15] And just as they were doing that same thing, like just really... [40:19] Going with the pattern. Yeah. Saying maybe he moved on. A new body turned up. He said, I didn't. Yeah. In the late 1980s, Marta Reeves had hit a rough patch in her life and turned to cocaine as a means to cope with her depression. Yeah. [40:32] In a short time, she developed a very expensive and very...

[40:37] tough habit that soon began causing problems in her marriage. And by 1990, she was estranged from her husband and four children, living in a motel in Seattle's central area and supporting herself through sex work. [40:50] In early March, she called her husband and asked if he could send her some money, but he explained he didn't have any to spare. [40:57] And Marta said, okay, then I'll have to work all night. And that was the last time anyone heard from her. Oh, man. In April, Marta's husband received an envelope in the mail, which just – [41:07] And it just had the local post office as a return address. And inside was her driver's license, which someone had probably, they thought, just picked up and dropped into the mail to return it, which is nice. Six months later, on September 20th, 1990, mushroom hunters walking in the woods near Highway 410 found skeletal remains and some rotting clothing. It took the Emmy several months to identify the bones, but in January 1991, they were identified as Marta Reeves. [41:37] Bill Haglund, our poor Emmy, was unable to determine how she died, other than to say it had indeed been a violent death. Despite having been discovered in the same location as several other victims and the fact that she was kind of in the typical victim profile, Seattle police stated they didn't think she was a Green River victim. And that would remain the case for many more years. And why didn't they think that? I'm not really sure.

[42:07] is it and you're like [42:09] Why? What about it is not that? Also, can I ask a possibly dumb question? Probably not dumb. If the remains are skeletal, how could they tell that it's violent? [42:18] Like the manner of death. He could have told from like a broken bone. Yeah. Really like a broken bone, cut marks on a bone that can't be attributed to like... [42:28] an animal. In this case, I don't think there was cut marks on a bone. He wasn't using a blade. But if there was broken bones, [42:35] or, you know, bones out of place in that way. Okay. You know? And it was like... [42:40] It's really hard to determine if it was a violent death that way, but he must have had some kind of indication. [42:47] It's not so unreasonable for local investigators to assume that Marta hadn't been a victim of the Green River Killer. [42:54] only because as far as they knew, [42:57] he hadn't claimed a new victim since 1984. So, so, [43:02] There were definitely other scenarios at this point. Like, it's not like, you know, they're never getting, because again, this was in 1991 that they found her. Yes. That's quite a while. 1984 is when they last thought he claimed a victim. So it's not crazy and unreasonable to think like, [43:18] this does happen, unfortunately. Like, women are killed a lot. And so it's like... Especially in that area. Yeah. And so I don't... As much as we're, like, in an echo chamber right now of this case... [43:30] it's not unreasonable that like they wouldn't be at this point. Other cases have come and gone. Other people have been killed. Isolated cases have happened. Right.

[43:38] So we can look at it and be like, why wouldn't they think that? But it's like, I guess I can see it. That gives some clarity. Yeah, so he's like, you know, but... [43:46] Just because they didn't know about any victims after 1984, to be clear. [43:51] That doesn't mean there weren't any. Right. That's just the last one they knew about. Now, on the afternoon of February 7th, 1987, Roberta Hayes was released from King County Jail, where she was serving a short sentence for a prostitution charge. [44:05] It wasn't the first time, despite being just 21 years old. Roberta had been arrested several times in the past. She'd had a difficult home life growing up, and by the time she was 18, she was supporting herself through sex work. [44:19] Her difficult history notwithstanding, she had made a pretty big effort to stay in touch with her family. And she could always be counted to show up for her family and to show up at her grandparents' house for birthdays and Christmas. Like she was with them. She was connected. Yeah. When they didn't hear from her for an extended period of time, they reported her missing. [44:39] For some reason, Roberta Hayes never made it onto the task force list of missing women, despite fitting the victim profile pretty much to a tee. Regardless, at some point in February 1987, she crossed paths with the killer and met the same unfortunate fate as the others. On September 11th, 1991, Roberta's remains were discovered in the underbrush alongside Highway 410. [45:03] not far from where several other victims had been discovered in previous years. [45:07] As far as the medical examiner could tell, her body had been there since she disappeared, and she'd simply gone unnoticed, which is wild. That's awful, too. It would take almost two more years for them to make a positive ID. Yeah.

[45:19] And that was in February 1993. Yeah. Once again, despite the obvious connections to the Green River case in this one... [45:26] The local authorities declined to consider Roberta a Green River victim at the time. My thought on this whole thing is they know how many women are already on that list and have this has not been solved. They're already disbanding the task force. They're already doing all this shit. They're hesitant. They don't want to keep adding to this list of victims because then it gives them reason to. [45:46] public outcry reason to say, hey, how are you not solving this and more victims are being added to the list? Right, like put more money towards this. So I do wonder if that had something to do with it. I wonder. I don't know. That's just me speculating. It's called being speculative. Exactly. Regardless of whether they considered Roberta Hayes a Green River victim, that's exactly what she was. And her death proved that. Rather than having stopped killing, the Green River killer had merely slowed down his activity, which was... [46:14] you know, a rare thing among serial killers. It's not like they do this all the time and it was a known pattern. Yeah, yeah. [46:21] But not unheard of. I wonder if there's a reason for that. It turned out there was another victim between 1984 and 1987 that had yet to be found. [46:30] But [46:31] that was going to change. Patricia Barchak was 19 years old when she went missing in the fall of 1986. She didn't have a history of sex work, but when she disappeared on October 18th, 1986, she was, [46:45] She had just completed a culinary course and was on her way to her dream of becoming a pastry chef. Oh, my God.

[46:52] Anne Rule actually wrote later, like most girls her age, Patty could be a little bit gullible when it came to men. [46:59] According to Rule, just before Patty disappeared, she had been dating a man who told her he had a very successful and lucrative career. But she found out that he was at the very least exaggerating that a lot. Oh, man. Due to his wild exaggeration about his employment and possibly some other relationship stuff, she ended that relationship and took great pains to avoid seeing him. Which was like kind of a relatively difficult task because he always seemed to be hanging around. [47:29] her mother reported her missing to the Seattle police. And despite not matching the victim profile, her name was added to the task force list. [47:38] As years went by and other victims were identified and moved from the missing list to the victim list, Paddy's would be one of the last names remaining, still there even after the task force was disbanded. Wow. [47:50] Now, on February 3rd, 1993, a survey crew found a human skull alongside Highway 18 in Auburn, just outside Seattle. Now, at first, the investigators suspected that the skull might belong to Tracy Winston, whose remains were found in March 1986 without a skull. [48:07] But a few days later, the ME used dental records and they found that the remains were those of Patricia Barchak, whose name had recently been published along with the others remaining on the list. [48:18] Even though she had been on the list for so many years, the local authorities once again declined to identify Patty as a Green River victim.

[48:26] Hmm. Police Captain Michael Nault told reports the killer selected sites where he could revisit and fantasize. This place is not like that at all. [48:37] And what he would also he also said that he was not convinced that this man would kill somebody who was not a sex worker. [48:44] He already has. Or like implied that, but like. [48:47] he has he has so it's a little surprising that michael knell would have jumped to such a crazy conclusion here yeah and what does he mean like this is not that kind of place like where he would come back like the place where she was found was not somewhere i'm like where exactly is a place that you would come back to visit a dead body because i'm like dull he's going to all kinds of places yeah [49:10] Like what? [49:11] And it's even weirder because Nalt had been working on or adjacent to the Green River case for at least a decade. [49:18] Interesting. And more than most, he definitely should have known that not all the killer's victims were sex workers. Right. And that... [49:26] They've been found in a lot of places that you wouldn't want to revisit, but... [49:31] But you're not a serial killer. Don't think in your brain. Think in his brain. Right. It's one of those. It's like we were talking about with... [49:38] what's the profiler's name? John Douglas. John Douglas. Like, [49:43] Sometimes these things are just a matter of opinion. Yeah. Like obviously very informed, educated opinion, but, but sometimes you're off. Yeah. Well, and, [49:51] Whether he wanted to add Patty's name to the list or not, she was, in fact, a Green River killer victim. It seems like they just didn't want to say that he had come back. I think so, too. And especially now that they didn't have the budget for it. That's what I think, is they were trying to... And that's just me speculating. And that's my opinion! That's my opinion! Is that it seems like they were not...

[50:10] Super eager to put them on the list because... [50:13] It was not helpful. Right. So by the late 1990s, the Green River Killer had started to kind of fade from public memory a little bit. Which is really fucked. The task force updates, which were... [50:24] Before, like a regular part of the daily news cycle, they went away with the dissolution of the task force in 1990. And there hadn't been discovery of a new victim or remains since the discovery of Patty Barczak in 1993. Okay. [50:37] The five-year silence was enough to make the city of Seattle conclude that after a decade of terror – [50:43] Maybe he did just stop. [50:45] I mean – [50:46] It's been a long time. Yeah. You know, or at the very least, they thought maybe he died. I was just going to say maybe they thought he died. Or maybe he got arrested for something else. Yeah. Yeah. [50:54] That obviously was wishful thinking. Oh, man. Now, little is known about the Green River Killer's final victim. [50:59] 38-year-old Patricia Yellow Robe. Patricia had a history of arrests for prostitution, and unfortunately, she was also dealing with some substance abuse problems that could be... [51:09] expensive and also put her in dangerous situations to kind of fund those those issues so she disappeared in january 1998 and when her family hadn't heard from her for an extended period of time they reported her missing did you say 1998 yeah okay [51:25] Yeah. Um, [51:28] On the evening of August 4th, 1998, the owner of All City Wrecking, a construction business in King County, [51:35] Closed up his office and he was just taking like one more look over the wrecking site, just closing up, locking the fence to go home. And he said everything was fine.

[51:43] When he returned the following morning, he discovered the body of Patricia Yellowrobe. Oh, man. She was laying just outside the fence on the east side of the lot, and he said he was... [51:52] Absolutely sure that she was not there the night before. Okay. So that's scary. That's horrifying. During the autopsy, the ME took swabs and submitted the sample for testing, but the amount of semen found in the sample, which they did find semen... [52:06] was too low to produce a viable DNA profile. Oh, man. As to the cause of death, the examiner concluded that the cause of death is acute combined opiate and ethanol intoxication. The circumstances seen investigation and postmortem examination indicate that the manner of death is probable accident. [52:24] But she was found like [52:26] dumped. Yeah. So the final victim of the Green River Killer wasn't even considered a murder victim. And she wouldn't be for several more years. That's wild. When the killer himself [52:36] finally identified her as his last. Wow. Yeah. [52:41] Isn't that scary? [52:42] I just don't understand why, like, because it basically sounds like accidental overdose or like that. Right. That's what was implied there. Yeah. And she was found in like, where was she found in a just dumped on the other side of a fence? Like what? Yeah. That doesn't make sense. I know. Now with 45 known victims. Forty fucking five. And more suspected victims. [53:05] The Green River Killer would be the most prolific serial killer in American history. At that time. A very gruesome and disgusting position that he would hold until 2018.

[53:15] But... [53:15] His notoriety wasn't just because of the number of people that he murdered, but also his ability to kill undetected for nearly two decades. Yeah, that's insane. All while inconspicuously dumping bodies only to move them later in some kind of weird hide and seek game, because that's what he would do. [53:34] He was putting them in one place and then moving them to another place. Oh, that's bizarre. [53:39] Now, we talked about anybody that's done that. Not really. I can't really think of anybody. [53:44] That's fucking weird. Despite the countless hours invested by the task force members and the... [53:50] Honestly, like... [53:51] What appeared to be like endless resources put towards this case at the time, investigators never seemed even remotely close to discovering the identity. Well, like you said, there were 600 people. Or catching them. Yeah. And they were like, I don't even think they did it. Now, at least that's always how it appeared. [54:06] In fact, whether they knew it or not, detectives had been very close to the killer at various times during the investigation. You talked about one of them. Yep. But bad communication and a series of just kind of like snafus kept them from making an arrest. And it wasn't until the dawn of the 21st century and the adoption of several new investigative tools and technologies that, [54:26] that the identity of the Green River Killer would... [54:29] finally become known. And finally, after 20 years, he would be held accountable. That's insane. [54:36] We're here, guys. Okay. We're going to catch him. Let's go. We're going to catch him. Previously, we were going to end there, weren't we? We were going to end there. I felt it. That's exactly where we were going to end. I felt that was like a cliffhanger. And I said...

[54:46] No. She said, I won't do that to you, people. No, we're going to catch this fucker this time. We're going to end on a good note. What a gift. Now, although the task force had several suspects over the years, like we said, over 600 at times, there was never any compelling evidence into any one of them that would have justified an arrest warrant, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. [55:03] There was, however, one name that continued to come up every so often, starting with the disappearance of Marie Malvar in 1983. [55:12] Now, Marie is the one, remember, that her father and her husband or boyfriend went to this house with her brother, with her brother. [55:23] And they talked to Gary Ridgway. Mm-hmm. And then he was let go. And the detective said, no, I don't have any girls in here. And the detective said he didn't look like a serial killer. Which, what? Hello. When Joe Malvar told his daughter's boyfriend, Bobby, to run down the street to call the police... [55:39] He and the other men were fairly certain that they had found the man responsible for Marie's disappearance. He knew it. And they said, that's him. Yeah. And he was correct. Yeah. [55:47] Thank you. [55:48] But when Des Moines police officer Bob Fox spoke to Gary Ridgway, the homeowner, he felt confident that he had nothing to do with Marie's disappearance. I can't believe I ever complimented that man's name. Yeah, and it wasn't it wasn't simply the matter of like one person's word over another that made Fox think this. He said it was really largely the fact that Ridgway was remarkably honest with him. [56:08] including that he'd been arrested in the past for soliciting sex workers. He was like, yeah, I have. [56:13] Ridgway seemed believable, especially compared to Bobby.

[56:17] Bob Fox said, who was initially dishonest with detectives and was very vague on descriptions, which like... [56:23] Okay, I get that part of it. I'll get you. Now, Ridgway's name came up again the next year when Rebecca Garda... [56:31] who is also in that Dialogue with the Devil documentary about Ted Bundy. She talks in that documentary. I urge you to listen to her. I know. I really want to watch that. She reported... [56:42] a previous sexual assault to the tax task force, according to Rebecca. [56:47] In 1982, she was hitchhiking after work, trying to get home. She had been picked up by a man in a truck who was described as, she described as having beady little eyes. Yeah, he does have beady little eyes. Go take a look at Gary Ridgway. And she was driven out to a remote location far into the woods. [57:03] She said she had never gone out that far before, but they went into the woods to complete the [57:07] A transaction. [57:10] However... [57:10] This man could not get an erection and became irate and started going after Rebecca, knocking her to the ground. He got on top of her, pushed her face in the dirt and simultaneously wrapped his arm tightly around her neck to choke her. Oh, my God. After 10 or 15 seconds, she managed to break free of his hold by biting him as hard as she could, which like, yep, that's our girl. That's my girl, Rebecca. And she ran. She ran deep into the woods. This is at night in the woods. So fucking scary. [57:40] He's close behind her, following her. And has a vehicle. And, but he saw her run towards a brightly lit trailer off in the distance, so he dropped off, went back to his truck, and drove away. Damn.

[57:52] She was reluctant to report the case at the time. Of course. Clearly, because she was engaging in sex work. She was worried she might be arrested. And she didn't think she would be believed or that anything would come. [58:03] like about it you know and so she didn't tell anyone but two years later the green river murders were at their peak so she said this might be important i gotta tell somebody good for her after listening to her story detectives put together a photo array of six similar men and she immediately pointed to gary ridgeway and said that's who did it are you kidding me she is the only survivor of the green river killer holy shit that we know of [58:28] Holy shit. Now, following Rebecca's identification of Ridgeway, task force members interviewed him and confronted him with the allegation. And he confessed that he had, quote unquote, dated Rebecca. [58:41] He meant it as a euphemism for prostitution. That's what he called it. Okay. But later he claimed he quote, and this was later after he was caught for the crimes. And he said, he quote, choked her as a reflexive reaction to her biting his penis. [58:57] What? [58:58] And nothing else came from this. [59:00] He wasn't charged with anything. That's wild. So he was like, oh. [59:05] And so she was exactly right, but she wouldn't necessarily like her word wasn't better over his. Because what happened? She said it. I didn't think anything would happen. That's so sad. And her whole reason for coming forward was I don't want this to happen to anyone. Yeah. And look at that. What did you say? That was 1982 that happened to her? [59:21] Wow. And it was like 1985 when they actually talked to him. Think about...

[59:25] how many women would possibly still be alive. And she came forward to try to help those women. Yeah, she had the right idea. And certain people in the task force were willing to do something, but nobody else was willing to give them anything to get a search warrant or an arrest warrant. Like, they tried, but other people in this whole law enforcement shit, [59:43] Yeah, that's so fucked. So the following year, Ridgway's name came up again when detectives were going back through the files and reinterviewing old suspects. This time, Gary went so far as to volunteer to take a polygraph exam. [59:58] And he passed it. [59:59] Hot dog. Trench coat. [1:00:01] Exactly. There's your hot dog in a trench coat because also... [1:00:05] As we'll find out, he is very likely a clinical sociopath. [1:00:10] That's how he was able to fix it. Like, they can do that. Yeah. So he was ruled out as a suspect, though, again. [1:00:16] Although he volunteered to take and ultimately pass that polygraph exam, Ridgway's name came up again in 1987, following the discovery of Cindy Smith's remains. [1:00:27] This time, they were able to get a warrant to search his house. Now, according to the Seattle Intelligencer, which reported on the information in the search warrant that was used to search his home, it was because of several factors. Yeah. [1:00:39] Several of the victims were seen by witnesses getting into pickup trucks that were blue slash green. [1:00:45] At the time... [1:00:46] that this was witnessed, Ridgeway had access to his brother's 1974 [1:00:51] Aqua [1:00:52] pickup truck. So that can be seen as blue or green. In fact, Elena and I consistently will argue over what color a certain thing is. Blue and green, we see completely differently what she sees as blue, I see as green. And vice versa. It's vice versa. It's so weird. When I read all these, I was like, holy shit, that would have happened. Absolutely. You would have seen it as blue. I would have seen it as green. Yeah. And it's aqua. It's in the middle. I remember we

[1:01:22] green. Yeah. And I was like, no, this is a blue scarf. And you said, no, it's blue. That's wild. And then one of them had said that they saw him get her get into a red truck or a red vehicle. He had a maroon vehicle as well, but it was in the shop during the time when people were seeing him in the green and blue one. So it all matches up. Also, metal fragments containing aluminum were recovered from five of the sites where bodies were dumped at Green River, North Bend, [1:01:52] Thank you. [1:01:52] And this is a quote from the article. Task force detectives have learned that aluminum is a metal which is commonly used at the Kenworth Truck Company, where Gary Ridgeway is employed. Also in the search warrant, green polyester trilobal carpet fibers were found. [1:02:09] And they looked all to be from the same source. And they were found at three separate dump sites. [1:02:15] According to statements that have been obtained from witnesses who have been inside of Gary Ridgeway's house, he's [1:02:19] Task Force detectives have determined that there was and may still be green carpet in the bedrooms. [1:02:25] Now, the person who owned the house before Ridgeway... [1:02:29] He provided police with a photograph that, [1:02:32] badass, showing the shade of green on the carpet at the time of the sale to Ridgeway. And that was in 1981 that he sold the house to Ridgeway. Okay. King County Sheriff's spokesman, Sergeant John Urquhart. Oh, bitch. Relation? Which... [1:02:47] I'm going to let you in on my side quest. I'm about to find out if I'm related to this. You better believe that I'm going to find this. John's all up in Ancestry. You've got to ask him. Yeah. Like your John. Yeah. Now, John Urquhart, Sergeant John Urquhart, said that he could not discuss whether the carpet fibers and metal fragments found at the sites were linked to Ridgeway. Okay. I don't think they were ever able to definitively at the house link them to him. I mean, also, you have to think of the science at that time. That was probably very difficult.

[1:03:17] Yeah. So a search warrant was granted because of all those things. They searched the house and they took, quote, hundreds of items of evidence that was like carpet scraps from his truck, ropes, paint samples, plastic tarps. They were all seized and given to the Washington State Police Crime Lab for testing. [1:03:35] But none of it. [1:03:36] linked him to the victims. Which is crazy because you would think that like, if they found those fibers on the victims, they had been in his house at some point. And again, [1:03:46] We've said so consistently throughout, I think, all three parts of this, where is he keeping... [1:03:51] people because they're not being discovered for so long yeah but then he's like moving now i know he's moving them about so i'm like [1:03:58] were they at his house? They were. They were at his house. Okay. At times. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, [1:04:04] Yeah. Oh my God. He was also just very careful. [1:04:07] And he tells them that he said that was one thing I wanted to do was make sure nothing was left or connected us. That's how and he says that's how I was able to get away with this. So did he like clean people up? I think he did whatever he needed to do. [1:04:21] Okay. But during the search... [1:04:23] investigators collected one piece of evidence that ended up being very useful. Okay. And that was a saliva sample taken from Gary Ridgway. [1:04:32] In 1987, a saliva sample wouldn't have been much use. [1:04:36] you know, in the course of identifying a specific killer, but the sample remained on file. [1:04:43] And years later, when the technology allowed for DNA typing, former task force member Tom Jensen submitted the sample for testing. In September 2001, the test was released.

[1:04:54] Forensic scientist Beverly Himmick developed Ridgway's profile from the saliva and compared it to a few samples they had collected from victims' remains. [1:05:03] and discovered that Ridgeway was a match for the DNA collected from Marsha Chapman in 1982. [1:05:09] Himmick also compared it to the DNA profile that they developed from a pubic hair found on Opal Mills. [1:05:15] and discovered that was a match as well. [1:05:17] forensic science oh my god so fucking fascinating and just the fact that like saliva doesn't degrade over time yeah like that they are able to preserve that like that that many years later i'm sure it degrades to some degree but just like beverly being like yeah so i developed a dna profile from this spit okay bev you're a fucking superhero for real i hope you know that like that's [1:05:41] insane to be able to say that statement. That's some Scarpetta shit. Yeah. You say to me, I developed a DNA profile from spit. [1:05:49] You don't even have to say from spit, period, before that. That's crazy. Yeah. Fascinating. Now, the two positive matches turned out to be just the beginning. While Hemick was comparing profiles to the victims, Washington State Police forensic scientist Gene Johnston was also comparing his profile to the evidence in storage at the state police barracks. Oh, honey, that's more. [1:06:19] literally every other person in the world but Ridgway. Wow. The evidence against Gary Ridgway was beginning to pile up. Gary, your days are numbered, bitch. Your days are numbered. But while the DNA connected him to a few victims, they were a long way from proving conclusively that he was the Green River Killer.

[1:06:36] Still, there was enough evidence... [1:06:38] on hand to get an arrest. And they could at least bring him in for questioning. While the King County Sheriff's Office began preparing to arrest Ridgeway, the DA's office made the surprising decision to reform the Green River Task Force. Okay. Correctly assuming that they would be an asset in building the case against Ridgeway. And they fucking were. All right, the 90s. And they said, let's review the remaining unidentified victims, the cases, or those that are still missing, and let's keep bringing shit upon him. Okay. [1:07:06] *music* [1:07:17] One thing about me is that I love to buy myself a little gift, so I'll just put a little bit of money away, save up for something that I like. Right now I have my eye on a beautiful green bag. Are you ready to start saving for your next big adventure or a little gifty for yourself? Guess what? Rocket Money makes it easy. With Rocket Money, you can track subscriptions and have the ability to cancel unwanted ones in just a few steps. [1:07:41] They have saved users over 880 million in canceled subscriptions. You can set budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports, and receive real-time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances, all in the Rocket Money app. I absolutely love Rocket Money. Also, you can consolidate your checking, savings, loans, and investments into a single dashboard to give you a clear view of your financial picture. I love setting a budget with Rocket Money.

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[1:11:10] He's married. No! Yep. [1:11:13] And he said, please don't contact my wife. [1:11:16] he's married this I asked you at one point you said we'll get there and I had a feeling he had like a girlfriend or something yeah no he's married [1:11:22] How long? [1:11:24] He's been married a couple of times. [1:11:25] Okay. [1:11:26] Now, instead of calling his wife... [1:11:29] He told the booking officer, and I quote, [1:11:32] You can contact the Green River Task Force. They know me real well. [1:11:37] Yeah, that's a quote. [1:11:39] he said don't yeah don't contact my wife contact the people who know that i fucking did this i couldn't even come up with something what now do you want to hear about gary richway and why he possibly you know he was i want to say no but like yes but this will make you hate him even more yeah and i i need that i mean i already do hate him because he's always pretty terrible now gary leon ridgway was born february 18th 1949 what does that make him [1:12:07] a Pisces. Okay. In Salt Lake City, Utah. I'd also like to like, hold on, let me, let me just confirm that. Let's just make sure he's a Pisces. I think he is. I think he's like right at the end of Pisces. [1:12:20] God damn it. Aquarius. Aquarius. Oh, I hate that. I love Aquarians. [1:12:25] I don't know how I feel about Aquarius. [1:12:30] Like, who knows? I know. You know, but he was the second of three children born to Thomas and Mary Ridgway. Okay. Okay. [1:12:38] In the decade after Gary was born, the family, which included brothers Greg and Tom, they moved frequently between Utah and Idaho and finally settled in Seattle, Washington in 1958. Yeah.

[1:12:49] They moved into an area known as the Sea-Tac Strip. [1:12:52] Greg Ridgway, one of his brothers, said, we literally crawled on our hands and knees over the area around SeaTac where this series of killings was supposed to have happened. Wow. Which, like... [1:13:02] Must be really wild. Yeah, that's got to fuck you up. Although they had each other to play with, life for the Ridgway boys wasn't exactly easy. They didn't have like a horrible life or anything, but Thomas Ridgway worked as a truck driver. [1:13:16] But work was often scarce and the family rarely had enough money to cover the bills. It was just tough. Thomas's job as a truck driver meant that he was often away for long periods of time as well. So Gary and his brothers were mainly raised by his mother, Mary. In later interviews, Greg Ridgway would describe his mother as a strong woman who was strict with her children. But according to Gary's second wife, Marsha, Mary Ridgway was a domineering woman whose treatment of her children she considered to be borderline abusive. [1:13:45] Okay. That's Marsha talking. I'm not saying that's the word of God. I don't know if it's false. I don't know. That's Marsha's opinion. That's Marsha's opinion. Because Greg would say that she's just a strong woman and was strict. So who knows? According to Marsha, Gary once recounted an incident in their home in which his parents got into an argument and Mary broke a dinner plate over her husband's head. [1:14:10] Damn. That's Marsha saying Gary's account. Here's the thing. Different kids within the same family can have vastly different accounts of growing up. That's true. That's very true. So Gary craved his mother's attention and approval and would do just about anything to get it.

[1:14:26] Later in his interviews with detectives, Gary claimed he had wet the bed until he was about 13 years old and had, quote, [1:14:34] Vivid memories of having his genitals washed by his mother. [1:14:40] Oh, that's super fucked. Yeah. [1:14:43] We've talked that's like come up in other cases and that and it never ends well. You can't. [1:14:48] You can't do that. [1:14:50] Didn't... Was that Ed Gein's mom? I think he also had a similar... There's been a couple where that's happened. Similar bath time. You got to teach your kids how to bathe at a certain point. You got to teach them how to clean that. I know they're your responsibility and stuff, but there comes a time where... That's why you teach them. That privacy happens. Fuck. Now this... [1:15:11] Eventually transformed in his mind into fantasizing about having sex with his mother. I want to die. And then stabbing her to death before burning the house down. [1:15:21] I... [1:15:22] Need a minute? What the fuck? [1:15:26] It's a lot. [1:15:27] Having sex with his mother and then stabbing her and then doing arson. [1:15:32] than doing arson a lot of crimes it's a lot a lot of fucked up thoughts yeah [1:15:38] Yeah, he was always... I wasn't ready for that. He was never... [1:15:43] He was never okay. He was never chill. He was never okay. He never got into a flow state. No. What the fuck? What the fuck? [1:15:53] Never gotten to a flow state. As a youngster. As a youngster. You know that sheriff, the clip we were talking about the other day where he said...

[1:16:02] You need to chill out. Have a seven up. Eat a moon pie. Quit murdering people. Listen, I said today, I eat a moon pie today. [1:16:11] If I was a murderer, I'd stop. You know, stop everybody in their tracks. It'll get you in a flow state. But that's it. This is one of those things. And we're joking because it's like, because I'm so uncomfortable. Because I'm so uncomfortable by his childhood. Truly. Yeah. This is how I get through things. Yeah. It's just this is how we got to get there. And anyway, Gary. Now, the thing is. [1:16:33] According to the profilers on the task force, these memories and fantasies mixed together represented Gary's feeling of being humiliated by women, which in turn fueled his desire to dominate and eventually kill them. Now, Ridgway's criminal career started very early in his early teens. [1:16:52] At first, it was just petty theft, but in time, he moved to setting small fires and eventually to torturing animals. Oh, no. All hallmarks of the sociopathic personality, a literal poster child of the McDonald Triad, which I know is highly questionable at this point, but I had to point that out. Oh, it is? I think it's not exactly like that. The question of setting fires and torturing animals means you're going to kill the McDonald Triad. It's like, no, that doesn't automatically make you a serial killer. Makes you a weird individual. You do see it in a lot of serial killers. Yeah. [1:17:22] um, [1:17:22] He was... [1:17:23] He definitely knew that he was psychologically different from everyone around him. He was aware of that. I'd say so. Um, [1:17:30] Which most sociopaths are aware of that. Okay. So he became adept at hiding his true feelings and instead just mimicked those of relatively healthier people around him. Which is weird because they can really well. Like even just because we've already talked about Ted Bundy. Bundy. Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy. Yeah. He was really good at that. He was. Like. He just put on a mask. It's. That shit creeps me out. This is wild. Are you ready to get even crazier? I'm actually not.

[1:18:00] Gary's antisocial behavior and worldview finally turned violent, like towards other people. Like outwardly. One afternoon, he approached a young woman, [1:18:09] six or seven year old boy [1:18:11] in his neighborhood and asked the boy if he wanted to help him build a fort. The child agreed, but before they could go anywhere, Gary said... [1:18:18] You know, there's people around here that like to kill little boys like you. Jesus fucking Christ. And then he stabbed the boy in the stomach with a pocket knife. [1:18:26] What the fuck? Why was he ever allowed to do anything after that? Mm hmm. [1:18:32] Decades later? [1:18:33] The victims lived. [1:18:35] The victim recounted the experience. He said, I asked him why he did it. The whole front of my shirt was soaked with blood and he started laughing and [1:18:42] And he had a smile on his face and he stood there for a moment with his knife in his hand. I didn't want him to stab me again, but he reached towards me and just wiped the knife off both sides of the blade, one across my shoulder and twice across my other shoulder. He then folded the knife back up and he said, [1:19:01] I always wanted to know what it felt like to kill somebody. [1:19:05] What the actual fuck? So the boy ran home and to his parents, they called an ambulance and [1:19:12] He had obviously the flesh wound, but he had also been cut in the liver. His liver was cut, so he had to stay in the hospital for a long time. And despite the seriousness of the event, the stabbing was never connected to Gary, and he was never held accountable. The boy told everybody he did it, and they were like, no, he didn't. [1:19:28] Like, y'all, that's attempted murder of a six-year-old. What the fuck? Yep. Also, there's like Pennywise-ass way going about it. Pennywise-ass is right.

[1:19:39] Oh my god. Yeah. [1:19:42] He's always been a fucking piece of shit. Apparently. And the older he got... [1:19:47] right aiden just held up a sign that says oh the 60s oh the 60s indeed yeah period he was like hey that guy stabbed me and they were like nah shut up put a band-aid on it fine that poor baby also not only like the physical trauma recovering from that psychological you never want to go outside and play and you're i mean luckily he's probably never going to trust anyone again which at this point but at six years old like great yeah there goes your childhood now the older he got the [1:20:17] his rage and destructive tendencies to himself evidently and in his later high school years he was given in uh like an iq test [1:20:25] after he was held back twice. Mm-hmm. [1:20:28] And the results of the test showed that he had an IQ of 82. [1:20:31] The IQ test said, [1:20:33] Dumb. The IQ test said, you are... [1:20:36] Not the winner. They said, You stupid. He... [1:20:40] failed the IQ test. Listen, I've never had an IQ test. So who am I? [1:20:45] stupid and i say this not because of his iq because he's gary fucking not because of his iq i am not saying it because of his iq i'm saying it because he's gary ridgeway don't take that okay he's stupid and he's dumb and we don't respect him no but [1:21:03] He took an IQ test and it seemed to prove that he didn't really do well on tests. So there's that. Period. But he's stupid for every other reason that we have laid out over four episodes. Thank you.

[1:21:14] Now, as a result, he was expected to continue like everyone thought he was going to continue to struggle academically. And it would be assumed that he would probably have difficulty finding work to support himself. [1:21:25] But he did graduate from high school in 1969 at the age of 20. [1:21:30] Oh, my. And he got a job at the Kenworth Truck Factory as a painter. [1:21:34] but left the job after a few months to join the Navy. [1:21:37] And in the summer of 1970, just before being shipped to the Philippines, he married his longtime girlfriend, Claudia Barrows. That poor woman. After the wedding, Gary was sent to the Philippines, where he claims he first started seeking the services of sex workers. [1:21:55] Upon returning home in 1972, he discovered that Claudia had fallen in love with another man and she handed him divorce papers, which I said A-plus decision-making skills, Claudia. Snaps to Claude. According to the court documents, Gary told investigators that his first wife... [1:22:10] quote, had become a whore while he'd been overseas. [1:22:14] Wow, Ger. Yeah, Ger. Once he was back home, he went back to work at the Kenworth factory as a painter. [1:22:22] where he would remain employed until he was arrested later that year. And that's another thing. [1:22:27] That shocked everyone. He had steady employment. Something that people thought, they said he's probably not going to be able to hold down a job. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure Ted even might have said that, so he was fucking wrong. Fuck you, Ted. Fuck you, Ted. He... [1:22:38] He held down a job. He held down a job and he had a wife. [1:22:42] He was very outside of the norm in that way. Yeah. So, but that's the thing. Like,

[1:22:48] There are these anomalies. I mean, there are. Look at BTK. And there's always going to be. Yeah. Like I said, you can't account for all of them. So we can't say that like, oh, John Douglas got it wrong. So he's not a good profile. It's like, no, he happens to be an anomaly. And you can't account for all of them. Now, later that year, he met Marsha Brown. And the following year, they married. Poor thing. Years later, when he was asked about Brown, Gary told detectives she would dress provocatively, quote, with a lot of makeup, tight clothes, like a prostitute. [1:23:16] That's your wife, bro. And also, like, are you... [1:23:19] You're not okay. I bet she looked great. I bet she did. [1:23:22] The couple remained married until 1981, and when she was interviewed by police, Marsha reported that Gary, quote, enjoyed having sex outdoors and was interested in bondage. [1:23:32] Which does not mean he's a serial killer, I'm just saying. No, those are interests. She also stated that he would often be gone for long periods of time in the evenings. I bet. Quote, sometimes returning to the house dirty or wet. [1:23:44] That means he's a serial killer. If your husband is returning to your home dirty and wet with no explanation, you're married to a serial killer. That I'm very comfortable saying. Super confident. [1:23:54] You should leave him. Things began to deteriorate between them in the late 1970s when Gary began exhibiting strange and aggressive behavior towards her. They divorced in May 1981 and she took custody of their six year old son. [1:24:08] Oh, similar to the one that Gary had stabbed years earlier? Yeah. Thank goodness she got custody of that child. Good for her. In the years after that, Ridgway dated several different women, many of who he met through Parents Without Partners, a support group for single parents.

[1:24:24] We... [1:24:25] Yeah. [1:24:27] What? Yeah. [1:24:28] At one point, his relationship with one of those women was becoming so serious that they were engaged to be married. [1:24:34] But in 1984, she called the wedding off and broke up with him. Good for her. Just a few months later, Gary met his third wife, Judith, and they hit it off. A few months later, she moved into his house, and in 1988, they married. [1:24:47] Okay. [1:24:48] During the height. Yeah, that's wild. Like Gary, Judith had a history of failed relationships and at least one bad marriage in her past. But the truth was, all she really wanted was to be a good wife and a good mom. Yeah. Judith was just going into this with... [1:25:02] Eyes wide open. Sweet Judith. After her marriage fell apart just before she turned four or just after she turned 40, she started to feel like those were things she was never going to get to be. [1:25:12] But then she met Gary at the Parents Without Partners meeting and everything seemed to fall into place. [1:25:18] She later told detectives he treated me just so gently and perfect. [1:25:22] He didn't rush or push. He wasn't forward or anything. [1:25:25] Because it was during the height of everything else. So he was getting that out elsewhere. And he spent his entire life hiding his true self from everyone around him. And his third marriage was no different. [1:25:35] After he always had a strong command over what people did and didn't know about him. And he managed to show Judith exactly what she wanted to see while simultaneously keeping the less savory things like all of his run ins with the law completely away from her. [1:25:49] Still, it wasn't all an act. It seemed as though Gary did have genuine feelings for Judith.

[1:25:54] Is he capable of that? Whatever genuine feelings he is capable of having, he had them. Okay. [1:26:01] Like between the summer of 1982 and when he met Judith in the spring of 1984. [1:26:06] The Green River Killer was known to have murdered 45 women. [1:26:09] At that point, during that time, between when, before, like in the summer of 82 until he met [1:26:16] Judith. He had already killed 45 women. After he met Judith? [1:26:20] There was only four more murders spread across 15 years. So I wonder if that accounts for some of it. [1:26:27] Obviously, [1:26:29] We're like, [1:26:30] Crazy. He only murdered four people in 15 years when he was with Judith. Still horrific. It's a relative thing. When you're looking at before her... [1:26:40] 45. [1:26:41] Yeah. With her for spread out over 15 years. [1:26:46] That's wild. It is. And it shows you that there was something... [1:26:50] Here? [1:26:51] I mean, again, that's what we know of. I was going to say things. So like this is what he's admitted to. Mm hmm. [1:26:57] Who's to say? Who knows if there'll be more that end up getting put in that 15 years? But it is a very interesting story. [1:27:05] Very BTK-ish kind of situation. And like you said earlier, he was bringing some of these women to his home. So the fact that he's married, I'm sure, made that a lot more difficult. So maybe that was part of it. Yeah. [1:27:17] I mean, he had a failed marriage because he was gone for so long at a certain point. But it's like the urges don't go away. He didn't do that anymore. It's like, what was happening during that?

[1:27:37] Marsha Chapman and Opal Mills, all of who could be tied to him directly through DNA evidence. Four months later, the prosecutor provided written note to the court and to Gary's attorney that he intended to seek the death penalty. They also made it clear that they intended to go to trial as soon as possible with an expected date of March 2003. [1:27:56] While the prosecutor's office began building their case against Ridgway, [1:28:00] They received word from one of the private labs contracted to process the evidence. [1:28:05] The lab had managed to match the paint flecks discovered on Wendy Caulfield and Deborah Estes, or Estes, excuse me, to a highly specialized type of paint used at the factory where Gary worked. Since Caulfield and Estes had been discovered along with the remains of Deborah Bonner, it seemed more than likely that Bonner was killed by the same person. [1:28:26] On March 27, 2003, the prosecutor added three more counts of murder against Ridgway. And when he was arranged for the additional counts, Gary pleaded not guilty, and a trial date was set for July 2004. Do you remember any of this trial? I do. I was going to remember this happening. Because I remember it being on the news, and I was like, whoa. I was too little to remember it. And I was very interested in true crime at this point, so I remember I was like, what the fuck? Yeah, because you were about to graduate. Yeah. And you went to college for criminal justice. Yeah, for criminal justice. Now, again, [1:28:56] As the trial date approached, the task force members worked tirelessly to find evidence connecting Ridgeway to the other victims. But despite their best efforts, there was like no new evidence to be found, although they still have the seven murder counts, four of which were slam dunks thanks to DNA.

[1:29:12] There was 40 other victims who were going to be denied justice. Yeah. And not really have their cases solved. Which is fucked. Now, with the trial date just around the corner and Ridgway facing the death penalty, his defense attorney reached out to the prosecutor's office with a little proposition. [1:29:27] If the district attorney was willing to take the death penalty off the table, Ridgway would provide a full account of his activities between 1982 and his arrest. [1:29:37] including details on as many victims as he could remember. Wow. To those in the DA's office, it seemed a better path to get justice for all the Green River victims. [1:29:46] even if it did mean allowing Gary Ridgway to live. I mean, life in prison is worse than dying. On June 13, 2003, both parties signed the plea agreement, and Gary agreed to provide, quote, complete, faithful, and candid information concerning his crimes in King County and answer all questions during interviews conducted by the police or the prosecuting attorney. The deal also required him to plead guilty to aggravated murder in the first degree for all 49 victims [1:30:16] previously unknown victims. But if at any point the prosecutor's office learned that he had not been completely honest, then, [1:30:24] the deal would be completely void, and he would once again get the death penalty. Okay. So there was no benefit to him doing this. I was just thinking to myself, isn't it interesting that [1:30:34] serial killers like not all of them obviously but some of them are afraid of death yeah [1:30:38] That's such a weird concept to me. You think you own it. Right. And you're like Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy shit his pants over the idea of being killed. Yeah. Yet he brutally murdered and tortured women. And it's weird because I feel like a lot of times like sociopaths and psychopaths like don't have the same fear.

[1:30:55] that you and I do, but they seem to fear death. Yeah, and I wonder... [1:31:01] This is just me thinking out loud. Yeah, just to kind of talk about it for a second. Like you look at Ted Bundy and you look at Gary Ridgway. [1:31:07] What we're going to find out is they are both necrophiliacs. Yeah. They would go back to the scenes. Yeah. They would rape the corpses. So fucked. Yeah. [1:31:15] Maybe [1:31:17] The reason they fear death so much is because they come so close to it and they also see how death progresses. [1:31:23] And they see what happens afterwards. [1:31:25] And they watch it. [1:31:27] bit by bit, phase by phase. Yeah. And our... [1:31:30] So up for it and personal that they know that's what will become of them. [1:31:35] And so I think it's like it's in their face, so they're more... [1:31:38] thinking of that side of it than somebody else would be. [1:31:42] Yeah, no, I think you're onto something there, but it's just so interesting that they care because like... [1:31:46] I mean, maybe this is just the way that I think about it. Well, they're narcissists too. Like they have narcissistic tendencies. Yeah. They don't want to end up. [1:31:52] A rotting corpse somewhere. [1:31:54] They've seen it. They don't want to end up like that. [1:31:57] Yeah, it's such a we could do like a whole episode talking about it. Yeah, it's not their perfect projected image. A dead body. Yeah, it's not. [1:32:05] I don't get to control that image. [1:32:07] I think that's another piece of it, too, is like, I don't get to control this. What happens afterwards? They need to be in control. And that is the least control. I think that's a huge part of it. Yeah. [1:32:18] Now, beginning in June 2003, investigators spent five months extensively interviewing Ridgway. [1:32:24] during which he confessed that, quote, he killed over 60 women.

[1:32:28] in King County. [1:32:29] So that makes you wonder even more about that 15 years. Yep. Throughout their interviews, Gary provided a lot of detailed accounts of each murder, including information on seven additional dump sites and victims that had not been considered Green River victims. [1:32:44] During this period, he also took investigators to each dump site and provided directions to the graves of four women from the task force list of missing women. [1:32:53] Pammy Avent, who disappeared October 26, 1983. April Bittram disappeared April 18, 1983. Rebecca Marrero disappeared December 3, 1982. And Marie Malvar disappeared April 30, 1983. Because the deal had already been signed, he would not be charged with their murders. That's so shitty. Now, at first, Gary seemed to go out of his way to minimize his behavior. He downplayed the violence, [1:33:23] Nice. [1:33:23] And when asked why he wasn't being entirely forthcoming, because they were like, we have the evidence, asshole. We know what you did. [1:33:29] He told detectives, quote, a popular true crime author will write a book about him, and he wanted to portray himself in the best light possible. [1:33:39] I think we're past that point. Yeah, that ship has sailed. [1:33:43] That ship has... [1:33:44] sunk to the bottom of the ocean. In the best possible light. Like, excuse me, what? Like, you've killed, you just admitted that you killed over 60 women. Mm-hmm. [1:33:53] There's no light, doll. No. The fuck? [1:33:56] He was reminded at that time of the potential for the deal to be completely void if he isn't entirely forthcoming. And that seemed to make him a little more cooperative. That's so crazy. Again, he's stupid. So they had already told him about this and he was like, I can lie to them still. And then he admitted that.

[1:34:13] I'm bullshitting you because I don't want somebody to write shit about me later. And they were like, [1:34:18] You can't do that or we'll literally kill you. And he was like, Oh, like, [1:34:22] Stupid. I can't get past the best possible. That's next level. Now, throughout most of the interviews, Ridgway either demonstrated a remarkable lack of insight into his behavior or made self-serving claims to distance himself from the heinous things he did. [1:34:36] His initial explanation was that he never intended to murder anyone, but he said inevitably the women would do something to trigger my rage. And the next thing I knew, I was choking them. It's their fault. When asked about his anger, he always had someone or something to blame it on. Usually women. Yep. Eventually, when he realized there was no incentive for minimizing his role or his actions and nobody believed his bullshit, he stopped downplaying things and acknowledged that he simply had a deep hatred for women. [1:35:06] regardless of how she acted or how he felt. [1:35:09] Which is so weird. [1:35:11] Because he's married to a woman. Mm-hmm. I never understand that. Yeah. [1:35:16] I don't get it. Like what makes, like obviously all of these women were great women, but like, [1:35:22] What makes your wife different from your murder victims? I don't get it. Like... [1:35:27] I need more of that. [1:35:28] Now, if... [1:35:30] In the end, Ridgway confessed to nearly all of the victims on the Green River list and six unsolved homicides that had not been on the list. [1:35:37] When he was confronted with their photographs, he was, [1:35:40] He was... [1:35:42] Like such a dick.

[1:35:44] like such a dick. He couldn't really recognize any of them. And he said, it's, I didn't, the women's faces don't, [1:35:52] don't mean anything to me. [1:35:54] Wow. And then he said, and once I've killed him, I didn't keep it in memory. I just knew where they were, where I dumped him. [1:36:02] That's your memory. Yep. So you did keep them in your memory. You fucking idiot. While he may not have had a very detailed memory of some of the victims, Ridgway was very forthcoming when it came to describing the process. He explained that he would spend hours before and after work driving around Seattle until he found a woman he liked. Then he would beckon her over to the truck. [1:36:21] And he consistently claimed that he only killed sex workers, but it's known that he did not only kill sex workers. His explanation was that they were the group he had the easiest access to. But the members of the task force believed there was definitely a psychological motive for victimizing that particular group of people. Absolutely, there was. During their interviews, his misogynistic worldview and hatred for women became increasingly undeniable. He repeatedly referred to his victims as garbage and was fully committed to killing them. [1:36:51] always had it in mind to kill them. [1:36:54] So completely changed. Finally, he told detectives he killed almost all his victims in the same manner. During sex, he would come at them from behind and wrap his arm around the victim's throat and choke her to death. When asked why he chose to strangle his victims rather than use some other means, he said, because that was more personal and more rewarding than to shoot her.

[1:37:15] That is so dark. Once the woman was dead, Ridgway said he, quote, quickly disposed of her body, usually within half an hour of killing her. He would use a tarp and he would drag the body out to the truck, remove their clothing, jewelry, anything else that might leave evidence. [1:37:29] Their clothing would be thrown away at a nondescript location. And then he would leave the jewelry, uh, [1:37:35] in various women's bathrooms so he could get a thrill out of thinking that someone had found them and was wearing the victim's jewelry. That is like... That's beyond... [1:37:46] What? [1:37:48] Oh, my God. Like went to women's bathrooms, like public bathrooms. It would leave them there to like. Oh, I gotcha. Because he's like, someone's going to take it. [1:37:55] And they're walking around wearing their jewelry. [1:37:58] Oh, and that's also just a way to violate them even more. And to violate women who doesn't even know. Existing women. Or living women. Strangers. [1:38:07] Wow. So he's violating women left and we don't even realize it. [1:38:12] Because imagine hearing that and thinking, oh, shit, I found something in a bathroom in Seattle. [1:38:17] during this time. Holy shit. That is like a... That's a crazy thing. Now, the victims were always dumped in one of Gary's preferred dump sites, all of which he referred to... He thought that he considered them sacred places, which... [1:38:30] is very Ted Bundy. Yeah. Ted Bundy also considered his dump sites very sacred places to him. Why were they sacred? Because... [1:38:38] he would come back. No, no, no, I know. But like what made the, is it just the fact that he came back that made it sacred? Yeah, they were sacred because of what he made them. Okay. After leaving a victim at one of the sites, it was entirely common for him to return to visit the remains. Some of who he confessed to sexually abusing, sometimes long after they had been dead. According to Gary, he would have killed more women.

[1:39:01] had the process of getting rid of the bodies not been so time and labor intensive. Yeah. [1:39:06] He said, I had to take them all the way out there. Waste of my time and gas. [1:39:10] Wasted your time and gas. Is that why you did it for 20 years? And he definitely didn't feel that way. He said he would have kept going. [1:39:16] He would have kept going. It was just kind of a pain in the ass. [1:39:18] You made that decision after 20 years? No, you got caught. Yeah. That's why you stopped. As for how he'd managed to get away with so many murders for such a long period of time... [1:39:29] That was simply a matter of personality and luck, he said. Outside of his wife and co-workers, he really had no friends, no social contacts. So he kept his activities to himself, and that really wasn't a problem. He was also very vigilant when it came to avoiding detection. Over the years, he developed a kind of innate ability to pick up women in a manner that avoided detection and really wasn't witnessed by a lot of people. And once he'd killed his victim, he was meticulous about getting rid of any evidence that might tie him to the body, and he was meticulous. [1:39:59] working in his favor was the poor communication of the various law enforcement agencies working on the case. [1:40:04] and various other failures on the part of some investigators. For example, if Des Moines officer Bob Fox had asked to look around his house for Marie Malvar, [1:40:15] The case would have ended there. [1:40:16] He would have found Marie. Yeah. Dave Reichert said, we found out she was already dead in the house when they knocked on the door. [1:40:24] Oh, my God. So her whole family and boyfriend are out there. They're outside. And he's saying to investigators, there's no girls in here. [1:40:31] And they said, OK. And she was in there.

[1:40:33] It would have ended. [1:40:35] Oh, that's awful. But also they couldn't have gone in there without a search. No, they couldn't have. But they could have pursued that a little further. No, absolutely. And Dave Reichert said she fought and bit him on the forearm. He had bite marks on his forearm. So to hide it, he poured battery acid on his arm to burn the bite marks off. [1:40:53] What the fuck? [1:40:55] Yep. [1:40:57] It was also during these interviews that detectives learned how close they'd been to catching Ridgway during the investigation. [1:41:04] Reflecting on the first cluster of victims discovered in the Green River in August 1982, [1:41:09] Reichert recalled, quote, he was the guy on the bank of the river. [1:41:14] referring to the man who waved to the kayaker who discovered the women. I fucking knew it. That was him. He said that was me. [1:41:22] That is like something you see in a movie. You couldn't even make that up. That's so fucked. On November 6, 2003, Gary Ridgway appeared in court to finalize the terms of the plea deal. And as part of the deal, he was required to make a statement regarding his actions. [1:41:37] It read in part, in most cases, when I murdered these women, I did not know their names. Most of the time I killed them the first time I met them and do not have a good memory of their faces. [1:41:47] I killed so many women, I have a hard time keeping them straight. [1:41:50] I picked prostitutes as my victims because I hate most prostitutes and I did not want to pay them for sex. [1:41:56] I also picked prostitutes as victims because they were easy to pick up without being noticed. I knew they would not be reported missing right away and might never be reported missing. I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught.

[1:42:09] Why was he allowed to speak? That's for his plea deal hearing. [1:42:14] Nobody wants to hear what you have to say. After he read the statement, the court reporter read the 48 counts against Ridgeway, and he pleaded guilty. [1:42:21] The following month on December 18th, he was back in King County Courthouse for sentencing. [1:42:26] And that's when families were allowed to read their victim statements. [1:42:30] For nearly two full days, one family member after another spoke of their loved ones, the grief that they've wrestled with since they disappeared, and in some cases, their hatred for the man responsible for their deaths. [1:42:41] Carol Christensen's daughter Sarah said she wasn't a prostitute. She was a mother. She was a wife. She was a sister. No matter what you say, I will never, ever, ever forgive you. [1:42:51] Others, like Mary Meehan's brother Tim, kept their statement short. He said, I can only hope that someday someone gets the opportunity to choke you unconscious 48 times. [1:43:01] May God have mercy on your soul. Have no mercy on your soul. Yeah, good. [1:43:05] Throughout the days-long outpouring of grief and anger, Ridgway sat beside his defense attorney, listening, nodding, occasionally wiping his eyes. Imagine defending him? When his time came to respond to the families, he stood up and addressed the courtroom, and he said, I've tried to remember as much as I could to help the detectives and recover the ladies. I'm sorry for the scare I put in the community. [1:43:25] You gotta be fucking kidding me. The scare? [1:43:29] Now, that's what you chalk it up to. After all the statements were read, King County Superior Court Judge Richard Jones sentenced Gary Ridgeway to 49 life sentences to be served consecutively. Period.

[1:43:42] And his statement. [1:43:43] Let's hear it. Let's hear it. He said, as you spend the balance of your life in that tiny cell surrounded only by your thoughts, please know the women you killed were not throwaways pieces of candy and a dish placed upon this planet for the sole purpose of satisfying the murderers desires. Yes. [1:43:59] While you could not face them as you took their lives, if you have a drop of emotion anywhere in your existence, you will face those women in your dreams and private thoughts of your grisly deeds. And sir, if you have that drop of emotion, you will be haunted for the balance of your life. [1:44:14] Good. [1:44:17] And then he snapped his way out of the courtroom. Gary Ridgway was removed from the court and taken to Washington State Penitentiary to serve his sentence. [1:44:25] He is still there, and at various points he has been re-interviewed by investigators regarding open cases, and as of now, no new victims have been confirmed. [1:44:34] And that's [1:44:36] is the Green River Killer case [1:44:38] AKA Gary Beady-Eyed. [1:44:41] Ridgeway. [1:44:42] The fact that he came across law enforcement's desk as often as he did and was able to remain undetected for that long... [1:44:52] Yeah. Is next motherfucking level. It's. [1:44:57] I think it's just a product of the time. It really is. And it's a product of the time, but it's also... [1:45:04] He was meticulous. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean he's smart. That doesn't mean he's capable. It doesn't mean he's... [1:45:10] a superior in any way. He's just...

[1:45:13] is good at covering his tracks. Well, and also he was not something to be proud of. You also have to think he was meticulous for the time. Yeah, he left saliva. He left. Yeah, he sure did. He left carpet fibers. It was just we didn't have the science. Yeah, if we did, if we had the technology we have today, he wouldn't even be considered meticulous. You and also it's like. [1:45:33] If some people had pushed a little further and not kind of [1:45:37] assumed things about certain people or just taken it lightly, he could have been caught [1:45:42] When he answered the door. He wasn't so meticulous. And Marine Malvar was... [1:45:45] behind him. Awful. [1:45:47] Yeah. Pouring battery acid on his arm. Yeah. Which, what the fuck? Yeah. To be able to even do that, like, hollow. Yeah. [1:45:54] I'm looking for a fun fact. Oh, you're going to get us the fun fact I was about to. You put in a lot of work. I'll put in more. Look at that. [1:46:03] I found a crazy one. Tell us. I don't think we've done this one before. Is it fun or is it insane? It's just like, whoa. [1:46:10] It is kind of fun. [1:46:12] Male anglerfish? [1:46:15] They don't just mate. [1:46:16] They fuse with the female. Oh, yeah, I did know that. So they're tiny. The female is always bigger. [1:46:24] And they bite onto her and then gradually dissolve into her body. Yeah, she doesn't need them. And they only leave a sack of sperm that she can use when she wants to have eggs. Period. [1:46:38] So she just decides... [1:46:41] I think I'm ready now. [1:46:43] Now that I've dissolved the father. The things I could say. Yeah. The things I could say. Honey, the things that are in my head right now that I just won't say aloud. But you know what? That I won't commit to recording.

[1:46:57] That's a fun fact. [1:46:59] I can't say much. I can't even say anything. [1:47:03] I'm obsessed. I hope you enjoyed that. We. [1:47:06] This long-ass episode. But I had to give you that good ending. Yeah. That he's going to sit his ass in jail. In a tiny little cell. And I hope he is being haunted. He is. Because he had to have some... [1:47:18] Like the judge said, like drop of emotion. And I like that he said, you couldn't face them when you killed them. He pointed that out. He said, you little coward. You little coward. Yeah. [1:47:27] So, yeah. [1:47:28] He'll be serving 49 consecutive life sentences. Good. [1:47:32] Thank you. [1:47:33] Bye, Gary. Bye. We'll never think of you again. Nope. [1:47:37] so we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it but not so weird that you almost forget to end your show because I very much almost forgot to end it I had a feeling I was just like okay you can stop it now that's it bye [1:48:07] Thank you.

[1:48:37] Thank you. [1:49:07] Thank you. [1:49:21] In the U.S., there's a break-in every 26 seconds, but when intruders step near, SimpliSafe Home Security steps up. Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way. Using AI alerts, U.S.-based live agents help deter break-ins. SimpliSafe, no long-term contracts. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com slash sxm or with promo code sxm. Outdoor deterrence requires a SimpliSafe Active Guard outdoor protection plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012. [1:49:52] Hey listeners, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And we are so excited to have joined the SiriusXM family. [1:50:01] And you know what? If you want to keep hearing new episodes of Morbid ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Let's go!