Can Soccer Save the World?

[00:00] *Music* [00:20] Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is now about a week away, and I am already genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from... [00:33] casual fan to full-on [00:36] World Cup junkie, and I don't know what I'm going to do going forward to not do work at the office, because we just have the games on all day. [00:45] the more remarkable is that before the World Cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids, [00:59] visa restrictions, travel bans, and then also issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets. That one was not resolved, by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the U.S. men's team, at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to America, [01:29] from Waffle House and Serenade Stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it has served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that...

[01:37] We live in a great country and one that is defined by its people and not by its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup, I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Lineker, he's a former England striker, broadcaster, and co-founder of Goalhanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation. The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup. [01:59] Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today he's one of Britain's best known sports broadcasters. And he's one who has used his platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview. Today, Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goal Hanger. They've got a bunch of great shows. The rest is history. The rest is politics. [02:29] The list goes on. And another great way to support progressive independent media is to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with Crooked Media. You'll get ad free episodes of Pod Save America. You'll get other great crooked shows like Pod Save the World is ad free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pod Save America episodes. You get deep dives into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber. It's the single best way you can support our work and help us grow.

[02:59] with Gary Lineker. [03:00] So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup. So it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you've covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far? [03:16] I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup, [03:25] There are always pros and cons, but I think by and large, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the football's been really good and some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verde, for example. I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated not just their own victories, [03:55] Humanity and togetherness that we've probably not seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get on, even if we're on from all parts of the world. So I think that's been that's been wonderful. The tournament is building up now, obviously, to to. [04:15] the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But I think it's been way better than I actually thought it would be. They're obviously going into it like we do in all World Cups. We always think there's, you know, there are going to be things that go wrong, and there have been, and things that we perhaps don't like. But overall, I think it's been a triumph, really. Yeah, I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering. I mean, in the lead-up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know,

[04:45] from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know that one has not been resolved because I've been on stuff. Oh, my God. [04:54] People don't love FIFA generally, right? Johnny Infantino and giving the, you know, fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field, the clips of, you know, the Scottish fans at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that, like, just what happens every FIFA World Cup? [05:15] and then the play starts and we move on? Or what do you make of it? [05:18] Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them. But prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. There's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well, the positive side. [05:48] the world cup stadiums etc rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in brazil um roll on four years we were in russia um four years previously they'd invaded crimea um so that was you know a massive concern um when we go on to qatar and there was concerns about lgbtq plus rights uh people have been dying making building the stadiums um but again and going into

[06:18] into this country, which we never had before. We did have concerns, obviously, when the referee, the Somalian referee, wasn't allowed in. But, you know, everyone was worried about ICE taking fans off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. [06:36] So yeah, it was ever thus, really. [06:40] And, you know, during the World Cups, there are always things that you don't like, and there's been things like you said the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous. I mean, FIFA is supposed to be a non-for-profit organisation. They've got [06:52] billions of pounds or dollars or euros in Swiss banks. And obviously they always say it goes back into the game, and a lot of it, of course, does. But I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World Cup that profit becomes the most important thing, rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage [07:22] ticket to go and watch a football match. So I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup in terms of what happened with Balogun, the American forward that was, he got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision. But they didn't reverse the decision. They just postponed the fact that he's suspended. So, which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two-game ban.

[07:52] this possibly happen so there are always things in the tournament yeah but i think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall yeah uh fifa is a well i want to ask you about fifa in a bit i'm sure they're a non-profit i would love to see what the line item is for johnny infantino's private jet this month because he's at a lot of games that are far away and boy they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast i've noticed um before we get to that though so you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in england also in spain you played for england in 80 [08:22] Stepping onto the field at the World Cup compared to those other big games and moments. [08:27] Nothing like it. [08:28] representing your country in a World Cup [08:31] I think it's I think it's the most special thing You can ever do I would compare it probably to an athlete In the Olympics [08:40] games, that's their moment every four years, but this is sort of [08:44] Okay. [08:45] It's a little bit different to just a medal table compared, you know, the US are always there with China and it's always the same people because there's so many different sports involved. [08:57] is is kind of a global sport um even you guys have joined in a little bit now you're trying a bit of interest i've noticed um so which is which is great um so it's a chance really i don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patrioticness um supporting your country but at the same time we we can all get on and enjoy it so um it is unique and when you walk out you know

[09:27] the national anthem and and especially if things go well i mean it's this just it's hard to describe it's just like it's just like this is huge um explosion of of [09:38] joy and pride. It's amazing. You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986 World Cup. They were going through some shit at the time. You know, they had one party rule. They had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that at all? Do you feel bad about, you know, beating them that bad? [09:54] Um, I, if I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously, some terrible things in all countries suffer at different times. And we've been responsible for a lot of it over hundreds of years. But no, when you're on that football pitch, you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win. And you know, it's nothing like that. [10:24] broadcaster and a podcaster. Do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from unathletic schlubs that used to have them? [10:31] I don't think I've done that. I think we've added lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Goal Hanger. You've got some unathletic schlubs on the payroll, do you feel like? We've definitely got some of those. [10:45] Save some downloads for the rest of us, all right? We've got political pods as well. Yeah, no, you do. You have some great ones. So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of America's best players, Flo Balgan, so we could play against Belgium.

[11:01] worked in that game we lost badly so the suspension of Balogun's red card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game but as you said that decision is going to be uh it's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time so do you think Balogun deserved a red card on the play and like what is the international reaction been to what FIFA did how big a deal is this [11:21] Thank you. [11:21] It's a pretty big deal because I think it goes against the integrity of our sport. [11:29] You've got to have rules and they've got to be fair and they've got to be the same for everyone. You can't have one rule for one and one rule for another. Not in our sport. And we've never had anything, I don't think, quite like this before. So whilst it probably, well, it most certainly didn't make any difference [11:51] performance with all the hullabaloo around us. So I don't think so. I mean, Belgium are always likely to beat the US. It's not obviously your primary sport in this country. You're on a road. I think you're on a journey to where football is growing in this country. You've got a league now that's, you know, you've got one or two of the best players in the world. Messi's here. So I think it is growing. [12:21] in terms of FIFA that they're so obsessed with trying to get America to be super interested in our sport because if ever you are if you ever get all your real athletes playing our game you might be bloody good and that would be really irritating yeah I I hear you I mean look I knew we were in trouble in that game well we were in trouble already but when Belgium subbed in a striker who had been named uh league MVP in the Serie A late in the game this guy Lukaku and then we subbed in the former coach's son who played for an MLS club in Canada that kind of told you

[12:51] about the quality of the players who are out there. [13:03] Pod Save America is brought to you by Z-Biotics. I love Z-Biotics. It's awesome. Love it. Take it before a night with drinks. It's called pre-alcohol. Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. [13:33] and you'll feel your best tomorrow. [13:35] I use it all the time. It's whenever I know that, you know what? [13:38] I'm gonna... [13:39] I'm going to drink tonight. I'm going to have one. I'm going to have drinks. I'll have two drinks. Throw one down. [13:43] You had it at your wedding. I had it at my wedding. People loved it. People loved it. [13:47] And it was great. And you feel better the next day. July is packed with barbecues, fireworks, [13:52] Late weekends and late nights with friends keep the good times rolling into the next day. Drink pre-alcohol before you go out and wake up ready for whatever Sunday brings. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash crooked and use the code crooked at checkout for 15% off. [14:06] Pod Save America is brought to you by Sundays. Have you ever actually looked at the ingredient list on your dog's food? No. After the first ingredient, well, good luck. Kibble is made using extreme high heat to keep it shelf stable and inexpensive, so brands have to add back the synthetic vitamins and minerals in the form of unpronounceable chemicals. Is that really what you want to feed your beloved pet day in and day out? Sundays for Dogs is different. Founded by Dr. Tori Waxman, Sundays was created to meet her high standards as a veterinarian and as a dog parent.

[14:36] plus all natural meats and then add superfoods like kale, ginger, and blueberries. No fillers, no nutritional blends, no chemicals, just simple, complete nutrition. And the best part, Sundaes requires no fridge, no freezer, no prep, no mess. And Sundaes just launched a brand new fish recipe. It's made with 80% whole and minced fish, including eco-friendly invasive carp source from American rivers for a naturally rich flavor. Plus, it's packed with omega-3 fatty acids that help support healthy skin, shiny coats, joints, and brain function. [15:06] stages. A little behind the scenes here. So John saw Leo was in the office today along with Pundit. Love its dog. John kept putting Sundays in Leo's bowl [15:16] Leo would try to start to eat it, get distracted, and then punch it. In comes Punnett. There was a battle for that food. These dogs absolutely love that food. And I've noticed from both of them, more energy, better moods, more calm and focused, softer coats, less itching. [15:30] You notice Pundit has been itching less? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, she looks good. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to SundaysForDogs.com slash Crooked and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use the code Crooked at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at SundaysForDogs.com slash Crooked. SundaysForDogs.com slash Crooked or use the code Crooked at checkout. [15:51] Let me ask you about that U.S. team, though. So I got to see the U.S. team play against Panama. It was one of the most fun... [15:58] experiences, period, I've ever been to sports, whatever, concerts, anything. Everyone left that stadium full of hope. [16:05] and excitement and saying the same thing like this is our breakout year and throughout the group stage we look pretty good we were operating on felt like we're operating on a different level and then Belgium shows up and they kick the shit out of us and it's an unbiased outsider like give it to a straight Gary were we actually any better this year the US team and what do you think happened against Belgium.

[16:27] Thank you. [16:27] Well, I think I remember being interviewed early on after the before the tournament. And you're always asked, obviously, how the host nation will go or one of those nations, America, which I always said if they got to the last 16, I think that would be a really good effort. [16:47] I couldn't really [16:50] seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good, like a proper big European team on the North African sides. But I thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for the States and the tournament as a whole, because you want the host nations doing reasonably well. So if I'm really honest, rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as I ever saw them going. [17:20] about the Panama game when they had that incredible first half and it was really good to see and I know Mauricio really well, Pochettino and he's a delightful man and I'm really pleased for him for that and it was a terrific performance. All my American friends were coming at me and texting me and saying you were wrong about us, we're going to go all the way and I was going, mate honestly I know these World Cups and it's always the hope that kills you as soon as you start believing a little [17:50] As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that. It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think they...

[17:58] The palaver surrounding Balogans thing did. I don't think it helped them. I think if... [18:05] I think Mauricio missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think it would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that. But I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you know, you've got... [18:25] You've got half a good team. [18:27] But there's not much depth yet. And hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see. Yeah, Pochettino had sat Balogun. I think he might have been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in a stadium by Trump. So, you know, it's a challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Pulisic? He did not have a great World Cup. He subbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former U.S. men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels... [18:57] I'm sure that's painful for him, but what do you make of this? [19:00] I think it's a little unfair because I think his abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion. I mean, Pulisic is a very good player, very, very good footballer. He's had a good career. He's played in England. He's played in Italy. [19:15] He's a good footballer. But, you know, he's on all the billboards here. We're doing the show from here in Times Square. And he's everywhere.

[19:30] Ronaldo and with all due respect he's a very good footballer but he's not a great player. He's not you know, he's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch. But I think when you're the... [19:42] you've got carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation. That pressure was probably so much. So I feel for him, actually, because whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a World Cup, in reality, that was never realistically going to happen. So I can sympathise with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard. It's difficult. [20:12] best players in the world and they're out to stop you. You know, I played as a forward all my career and we had these... [20:18] things called defenders and they're out there to stop you by hook or by crook they'll try it in some way every world cup we kind of talk about is this the u.s's year are we going to take soccer to the next level and it's to the point where it's kind of become a running joke but like what would that entail is that it more developing the professional level are we talking about like getting more kids involved all of the above [20:39] All of the above, really. You've got a long way to go. What you need, you've got a league now, which is, you know, you've had a league before, obviously, it didn't quite work, and it started again. Now you've got a league. You need to work out a plan for youth football, both football. [20:57] I mean, obviously you've set great examples in the women's game. [21:00] um

[21:01] You're probably the best in the world. Yeah, they're amazing. I would say they're amazing. But I think it needs an overall plan. [21:10] and where you've got to [21:13] Really, I think, concentrate on the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know I've spent a lot of time in America over the years and I've been to, I've seen a lot of football camps, but you need some kind of proper organisation, probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached. [21:43] in all football really of how you deal with players that are young. Say in our country, for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16, your education, they will give you education on the side, but you have to start at 16. Obviously in America, with your sports, they go to college or they go to university and they get draft picks. And by, you know, [22:13] If you do that in football, it's too late. It's too late. By the time you're 20, there will be, you know, there's always examples that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So I think the whole I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World Cup and then hope it goes well, but build a long term future. Look 10, 20, 30 years ahead, because it is realistically going to take that long for you to challenge.

[22:42] Oof. So, uh, 2030 is our year is what you're telling me. So let me talk about FIFA. FIFA, famously corrupt organization in 2015. You know, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like $150 million in bribes. All these sports marketing executives to DOJ is accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. [23:12] uh, set bladder, the former president of a FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer related activities. Johnny Infantino, uh, the new guy doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know. I'm, you know, a casual watching this stuff. Um, given how much money stands to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like? [23:33] I've been hoping for that for a long time I find it quite depressing particularly the cases you talked about I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the World Cup I didn't have a particular problem with Russia it's a big footballer nation, they'd never hosted it and I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle East and Qatar either but it was [23:59] what hurt what made it feel dirty was was the [24:03] it was so obvious that the bids were corrupt. And it was latterly proved to be the case that, you know, a lot of them took backhanders for their votes. So I remember thinking this is just truly awful for a game. And then obviously...

[24:22] It changed and Fantino came in. I met him. He's a nice guy. I've spent time with him. And I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would be a change. I don't think for one minute now they're putting bongs to people, putting packets full of cash to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or who's going to host it. But I don't like the fact that they're making that much money. [24:52] I don't see why they need to do that because they, you know, yes, it goes back into the game. [24:59] But does it? [25:00] does it we don't really know it's all a little bit secretive and in the swiss banks and um so it it concerns me um but the sport itself is is is good um it's but i've i think it's the same in all things isn't it it's like if you look even if you look at politics across the world um and then the example of this world cup where all fans come together and actually we just want to get on i [25:30] eat, they want to have a nice home and just get on with it. And I think actually we really like each other all in all. But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, [25:42] They just don't seem to get that. I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or whatever it is, but I find it very depressing. Yeah, me too.

[25:59] Pod Save America is brought to you by Helix. I have the Helix Dawn Lux, and I love it. It's very soft and comfortable. [26:07] He looks at over 20 mattress models, so you can find the perfect model for you. [26:10] How do you know which mattress is right? You take the Helix Sleep Quiz. It will match you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk-free customer-first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress so you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. Plus, Helix offers a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. The Don Lux, the Helix mattress, what an upgrade. [26:37] over my old mattress. It's super comfortable. It's better than a hotel. [26:41] You should get one. [26:43] I've had it forever. I don't even know how long I've had it. It's great. [26:45] HelixSleep.com slash Crooked for 20% off site-wide. That's HelixSleep.com slash Crooked for 20% off site-wide. HelixSleep.com slash Crooked. [26:55] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. [27:25] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau.

[27:44] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. [28:06] One challenge we've had here in the U.S. is sports gambling. It's really exploded in the U.S. since 2018. There was a Supreme Court ruling that basically opened up sports gambling in all sorts of states. A lot of sports leagues, the professional leagues, have embraced gambling and the money it brings in. But now, like no surprise, we're seeing indictments and players getting charged with illegal betting schemes and point shaving and yada, yada, yada. Yeah. [28:29] Do you worry about the impact of sports betting on the integrity of professional soccer? It seems a lot harder to fix a soccer game than it is to do an over-under on free throws made. [28:39] It's difficult. I'm not going to be naive here and say it doesn't go on because I think there are certain things and things have been proven. And, you know, you can bet on absolutely almost anything now. We've had betting in our country for a long time. But you can bet on how many corners and whether a player is going to get a yellow card. And that opens it up to, you know, possible dodgy goings on. So that concerns me. [29:09] level [29:10] Players earn so much money that I don't think there will obviously be the odd exception. I don't think players will be bought. But it is a worry for me.

[29:22] People can have a bet. I have no problem if somebody wants to bet on something. But what I don't like is the attitude of the betting companies and the way they entice you. I don't know whether it's the same in America, but, you know, in England, they'll entice them in with a very attractive looking bet. You know, like... [29:40] Belgium to beat USA 20 to 1. I don't know how you do the odds in this country, but, and then they'll get them in. But to do that bet, [29:48] which is going to win... [29:50] you've got to [29:51] get an account. And so then they're in. And once they're in, [29:56] I mean, it ruins their lives. I've seen Kylian Mbappe speak out against the gambling culture around football, and I absolutely, totally agree with him. I don't have... [30:08] the rest is football that I'd [30:10] do we've [30:11] always refused to [30:13] gambling adverts for example i won't i won't get involved in that so um yeah i think it is a concern um and it's something that we really need to keep an eye on yeah absolutely i especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become to just lay bet after bet after bet from your phone on your couch like there's no friction there's no bookie there's no casino there's no nothing you're just going like this it's it's it's terrifying because it's it's so addictive as [30:43] whether it's alcohol, drugs, they say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction. As a broadcaster after your career, you've been outspoken about a number of issues, including immigration rights, the war in Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer, didn't always love you talking about issues that were not soccer. In the U.S., athletes are often scolded for having political opinions or talking about social issues. A Fox News host famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which was a very nice way to talk to someone.

[31:13] How did you think about when and how to speak out and about what issues? [31:18] I think it came with social media because suddenly you get a platform. [31:22] Whereas before social media, unless you were asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity to share your views. [31:34] I've always felt strongly and tried to stand up for humanitarian rights, etc. [31:47] sports people don't get involved because you do get a lot of shit when you do it um i i got that as well um but it's generally shit from people with some kind of vested interest um in the opposite view to that you've got and it's generally from the people that that clamber go on and on and on about free speech they you know f where's free speech but as soon as you do it as a sports person [32:12] Oh, no, you stick to talking about football. Right. We don't want to hear your political opinions. [32:20] I suppose I got, I started voicing... [32:22] my concerns about various things on social media and it went from there really but I just sometimes if I see something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on I just [32:37] feel the need to [32:38] to speak up about it. And I understand why some people don't because it can make your life very difficult. But for me, I, the only person you can control really is yourself. Yeah. Um, you know, if you go home at the end of the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay, I did the right thing today. It probably doesn't make any difference to anybody. but, um,

[32:59] You've got to live with yourself. Yeah, well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I think it's... We live in a world where people are very cynical. And when they see someone they know and they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20 years talking about the war in Gaza, for example, I think that matters. And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not have heard about. But also, you know, back to our conversation about, like, the friction-free gambling and the ease of social media. I know it makes it... [33:24] almost too easy to speak out on things sometimes? I know you had an incident where you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it. You unreservedly apologized. You said it was a mistake. You didn't see the image in there. You never would have shared. But did that make you feel chastened and want to retreat from conversations? Or how did you deal with that? [33:43] I mean, I've had a few incidents over my career with BBC because they have this partiality rules that actually didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs. But then they moved the goalposts and made it through for everyone. But I'd also got into the habit of things. So I'd had a couple of fallouts with them prior. And I always felt I was in the right position. [34:07] on those but the last one that [34:11] that kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a little bit earlier, was that genuinely concerned me because that was, you know, absolutely a... [34:22] an honest error i you know i was posting something and there was a little tiny rat emoji on on the post which i genuinely didn't say i mean i'm i am stupid but i'm not that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately um and you know i was made aware that it's it's apparently some kind of um anti-semitic trope uh although i

[34:45] why rodents would ever be compared with human beings. I don't know. But obviously, as soon as I was aware of it, I took it straight down and I apologize. But I felt bad about that because that was my fault. I should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it. But I didn't. But as soon as I did, I took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a tough few days because I wasn't pleased with myself on that one. But it was one of those things. And sometimes things happen for a reason. I think I've been at the BBC for [35:15] 30 years and it's like a long marriage in the end you gently fall out you go your separate ways sometimes um one last question about like social issues in soccer i mean there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer i mean earlier this week a senator in paraguay tweeted like some vile stuff about kilian mbappe who for those who don't know is this unbelievably good guy he's the best player on the french team he's one of the best in the world like i don't it's hard [35:45] Now, a couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of the European Championship game, and then three black players on the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse on social media. And I know FIFA has run all these kind of anti-racism campaigns, but you see critics say, like, it's really just marketing, it's not substance. Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior? [36:11] Thank you. [36:12] I think they genuinely do try, to be honest, and they will be supportive.

[36:19] I can speak for the Premier League. I think they do a lot of good in this area. And it's not just performative stuff. They do some really important things. I think, unfortunately, and as we see a lot in the world nowadays, the players, [36:32] There will always be isolated attacks on people. You talked about the Paraguayan Senator, I believe, that [36:39] cast abuse on killing Mbappe and it was outrageously racist. I wasn't even trying to hide it. And then he responded and then she responded again, claiming to be the victim. And it was quite absurd. And you talked about the three penalty. [36:55] And, you know, that's a load of people on social media, as we all know. I don't think they were views shared by the vast majority. But there is an issue not just in sport, but in every sport. [37:10] walk of life in terms of racism. And again, I'll go to sometimes the people at the top, the people in our governments. Do they do enough? Is it a football issue or is it a societal issue? I think it's the latter. And you just need more from your governments and you need them to set a good example, not a bad example. Yeah. Well, you're not getting a lot of help from the United States on that front. I happen to agree with you. [37:37] Indeed. Not sending our best over in the U.S. [37:48] Pod Save America is brought to you by Smalls. Smalls makes fresh human-grade food for cats. It's made from the same stuff you or I would eat, but formulated specifically to help cats thrive. Cats are obligate carnivores who need lots of real meat to stay healthy, but most cat foods out there use meat byproducts and cut their food with cheap grains, fillers, and artificial ingredients. Basically, it's full of stuff that isn't great for your cat, so just the big pet food companies can save a couple of bucks. Smalls is different. Their fresh recipes are over 80% animal protein,

[38:18] Food is so healthy that 88% of cat parents say that after feeding Smalls, they notice that their cat has better digestion and softer and shinier and has more energy to play because it's actually good for cats. If you want to invest in your cat's health, Smalls is giving you 60% off your cat's first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you go to smalls.com slash crooked. That's 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com slash crooked. [38:45] Third Love makes bras that actually fit, so they know this. If your bra feels uncomfortable, the problem isn't your body, it's your bra. Third Love designs for comfort first. Soft fabrics, support that doesn't dig, pinch, or slip. Bras that feel good and look good under everything you wear. Shop Third Love and explore over 60 sizes, including AA through H, and half cup sizes you won't find anywhere else. Get $15 off your first purchase at thirdlove.com with code PODCAST15. [39:12] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. [39:42] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau.

[40:01] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. [40:21] all right let's do some fun stuff to end this so um back to the world cup uh france looks unstoppable uh spain has unbelievable talent i got to see them in person against austria here in la argentina is messy norway has holland england is stacked we're recording this friday before the spain belgium game but at the moment who do you think is best positioned to win this thing [40:44] When is this going out? This will drop Sunday. This will drop Sunday. So I'm going to look a fool there, right? Both of us. I predict Morocco is going to win it all, so I'll start it. I'm just kidding. Yeah, good. We do know that result. We've already had that one. I can't see Belgium living with Spain. I think Spain win that relatively comfortably. [41:14] England, Norway, it sounds like England should win easily, but Norway are going to be tough. Holland, man. He's like a horse out there. Holland is the most Viking-looking guy I've ever seen in my life. And he's a great guy. I know Erling really well. I've interviewed him a few times, and he's got a lovely sense of humor. Boy, can he play. Can he finish. I mean, he just scores goals. So if England can stop him, they'll have a good chance.

[41:44] have to be slight favorites i'm gonna go with england i can't not go with england obviously as an englishman myself um but you know i've i just want it to happen in my i i was too young to remember 1966 when england won the world cup for there for the only time so i've suffered so many times i just want i just want us to win it before i die just once just once please um so but yeah so i'll go england and then um i i think argentina should beat switzerland i think [42:14] but I think their time is probably up. The little fella's just too good. The Messi's just too good. Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with the Scottish fans. They were singing at Fenway Park, they were drinking the bars out of beer. Were they that lovable when you were playing against them, the Tartan Army? [42:34] were they fuck they were horrendous um yeah but they don't like us very much i mean i think they've probably got good reason but um with history but uh no they they um they were tough to play against but it's the weird thing is as as [42:55] English, we actually really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fan stuff. We genuinely want them to do well. The opposite is true for them. I know. They desperately want us to lose every single time we play. [43:10] But their fans were amazing. Their fans, I think, they won the World Cup, the Fan World Cup, didn't they, I think. But then you get the Japanese and the Mexicans were incredible. I mean, all the English fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with Mexico's fans and they all were a little bit nervous.

[43:40] the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game where... And Mexico played so well with great heart. And it was... And that for me is... [43:50] the most beautiful thing about this competition. It really was. There was an amazing image. I think it was a bunch of fans from Columbia. I think when they played DR Congo and there was one guy from the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys, holding up his phone, singing his national anthem by himself and everyone respectfully kept quiet. Then they all jumped in, hugged him after. And it was just, you know, the beautiful moment. Some of those things, I mean, it can teach us all a lesson. Can football save the world? [44:17] Hey, hey, I think you're working on it over there, Goal Hanger. [44:20] You played your whole career without getting a single yellow or a red card. How is that possible? [44:25] I never tackled anyone. [44:28] No defence. [44:31] Yeah, when I played, they didn't dish out yellow cards quite as theatrically and quite as frequently as they do now. So there was a degree of that. But having said that, I'm not sure there's anyone else done it. But it was mad, really. I don't know. I haven't got a temper. [44:48] I don't really have a temper, so I was never going to lambast a referee. I could whinge a little bit, but I didn't call them any terrible names. And I wasn't overly physical as a player. And I got kicked a lot. But the thing is, that can make you angry sometimes. But the truth is, the only time it really makes you angry is when it hurts a lot, and you're laying on the floor for a minute. And by the time you've been treated, you're okay again. Your temper's gone down.

[45:18] yeah a variety of reasons but it is it was just a bit mad i didn't even think about until near the end of my career and people started saying he's never been booked he's never had a yellow card and and then i started to think you know it was in my mind a little bit on occasions um and i just thought maybe in my last ever game i remember playing my last ever match i was thinking maybe i should just punch you i was thinking that too go out in the blaze of glory just beat the shit out [45:48] Big, Jesus Christ. Yeah, they are mad. I was told to ask about the closest you ever came to getting carded. I don't know if that's a story there. I was in, that was in Spain, funnily enough. I was very, he went to his pocket and my offense was laughing at his decision. He made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughing. And he went with the pocket and I said to him, you're going to give me a yellow card for laughing. And he put his hand back and that was it. You were laughing in his face? [46:18] I was just laughing, that absurd decision he'd make. That sounds fun. I love when the refs get pissy. You know, you can tell when they have a little bit of an ego. You played in the infamous, or famous, just famous, Hand of God game against Diego Maradona in the 1986 World Cup. Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that game just a bit about what happened in Maradona? Because it's like, it is, is it the most famous game in history? I kind of feel like it is. I think it is. Yeah. [46:45] I think because of a variety of reasons. Four years previously

[46:51] The two countries were at war. [46:53] with the Falklands, or Malvinas, as they call it. [46:58] So... [46:59] That had an effect. And then it was built up before of this, that, you know, are Argentina going to revenge England's [47:07] war victory if you like to call it that um so that was a big deal and they had [47:13] The Argentinian side had Diego Maradona, who was the greatest footballer that I certainly played against. I played with him once as well. He was... [47:24] The best of his time is, in terms for me, the best players ever have been... [47:30] two Argentinians and a Brazilian Pele, Maradona and now Messi. Messi for me, [47:37] Beats them all. But Maradona was playing in this game, and... [47:43] It was pretty awful first half for the most famous game in history. But the second half kind of heated up a bit. The ball lumped into the air and Diego went to head it. But in the end, he punched it over our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate the air and what it's done to our game, but I could have done with it that day. So he punched it in and there was obviously this. [48:05] Thank you. [48:06] Huge ramifications for that. And then just a few minutes later, he scored what I think is the greatest goal that's ever been scored in... [48:15] in the football match. I've seen a couple of similar ones. Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take into account this was a quarter-final of a World Cup in Mexico City in the Azteca with...

[48:26] these two huge countries and Diego doing what he did was it's the one time where I was on a pitch [48:33] And somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt I ought to applaud. I didn't because that would not have gone down very well at home. And then after that, I scored. [48:43] The goal that no one remembers. Oh, I didn't know that actually. There you go. There you go. My proof. Yeah. I score with my head. And then in the very last seconds of the game, a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger, who made a massive difference in the game. Flipped it over. I was coming at the far part. I knew I was going to score. And from somewhere, a lot of good cheer, their left back came up and it hit the back of his head and went out. [49:13] um which you know i'm almost over it now it's only it's only 40 years on i was gonna say after all these years does it still hurt to have lost or is it just cool to have been a part of like history i think it's cool to be a part of that yeah history that's extraordinary i'd still would have preferred to have won you uh yes yes folks should go on youtube and check out the really beautiful tribute you did to maradona um when he passed away yeah it's worth watching uh would you ever run for office [49:40] Nope. That's the easiest question you've asked. Nope. Fuck that. I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in being a politician. What about, what's his name? Benny McBinface? Count Binface, that guy who keeps writing? Count Binface, yeah, I know Count Binface. Do we like his platform? Of...

[49:57] I like his head. For those of you who don't know, this is a guy who wears, he kind of dresses like Star Wars and wears a trash can on his head, and he runs in every special election. [50:05] Yeah, he runs everywhere. He's got every kind of by-election that he'll turn up. But normally there's a load of other politicians as well. But it does appear that in this by-election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel Farage to try and distract from his murky goings on, and he's grifting. But it doesn't look like any of the other parties in our country are going to put up a politician to run against him. So it might be that Farage runs against Count Bimface. [50:35] Count Binface won. That will be the greatest day in political history. Let's make it happen. Let's make it happen. Oh my God. If Count Binface beats Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard. It would be so much better than Liz Cross and the lettuce or anything else. It would be even better. [50:53] Final question for you. So my buddy, Roger Bennett, encouraged me to be an Everton fan a couple of years ago. I have to say it hasn't been the most fun winning experience, but I watched the World Cup and I see that, you know, the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford playing lights out. You see former Everton players like Lukaku scoring for Belgium. What is Everton doing? What do we need to do to get them back on track? [51:16] Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, I died one year there. It was amazing. My best season. Scored a hell of a lot of goals. Best team I played for. In the mid-80s, they were brilliant. Such a strong side.

[51:30] You know, they've been through the mill a little bit and things haven't quite happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit of late, but yeah. It's a great football club, though. And that's what supporting, I'm sure it's the same in American sports. [51:46] It makes the awful times make the good times better as long as you do get some good times at some point. Yeah. I got to tell you, as a Red Sox fan, we were like the lovable losers for years and years and years. It feels sort of akin to how England feels about winning a World Cup. And then we started winning everything. And there's a bit of you that misses the hurt and misses the underdog. And now everyone just hates us, you know. [52:07] Yeah, well that's what happens when you get successful So what do you want? You want to be successful, win trophies, have loads of joy [52:14] Or do you want to... [52:15] Everyone to hate you. Ah, it's a tough call. I think the former. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Last, last question. Is playing in Barcelona or playing in Spain the most fun thing in the world? That seems so cool. [52:29] Playing for Barcelona is amazing. I mean, I was there for three years. [52:34] It's a... [52:35] monstrously big football club. It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special. And especially when you play those games against Real Madrid, let's call them the Clasicos. I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first one I ever played in, I scored a hat-trick. It's three goals in the game. And we won three-two. And there were 120,000 people in the stadium. And every single one of them was a Barcelona fan. There was no away fans.

[53:05] I don't know whether you get that in the American sports, whether you get many fans that travel to watch their team play. I don't know. But in England, we do. We're a small country. It's quite easy to get around to the away grounds. But this was like, honestly, I'd scored two goals in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over me with the noise. And it was so special. And those games are so big. But, yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight of my career. [53:35] very often when you went out. That must have been a happy fan base. [53:39] They were very sweet. They were very sweet, the Barca. And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They'd never, like, they wouldn't bother you too much. You know, they'd see you and they'd not, but they wouldn't. I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now. Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that. Everyone's just like, click, click, click. Listen, Gary, I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so much for doing the show. Everyone should check out The Rest is Football, Everything Goalhanger is doing. [54:05] Uh, you guys make amazing shows. Just, you know, just a hit machine over there. So thank you for your time. Uh, check out the show on Netflix also, by the way. And, uh, [54:13] Enjoy the WrestleWorld Cup. [54:14] Thank you for the plug and thank you for having me. Enjoyed it. Truly my pleasure.

[54:34] Thank you. [54:43] you [54:44] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond, or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune in to Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no-bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of Prime Ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. [55:14] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. [55:33] Bye. [55:34] Don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.