MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: The Jamison Family

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:31] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And before we jump into today's episode, you guys, we have officially hit 500,000 subscribers on YouTube, which is like a very huge milestone. And if you've been here for a long time, you probably know that I started Crime Junkie believing I would always be able to be in my comfy clothes, which I mean, not that I'm like fully dressed up right now or anything. But there were pajamas in the early days. Yeah, I never [01:01] so much to us that so many of you show up and listen to us each and every week. And it means so much that now a lot of you are tuning in to watch every week. So if you have not subscribed to us on YouTube yet, today's episode is a great one to check out. [01:15] Because this is truly a case with elements that you won't believe until you see them. [01:21] And I bet that this is a story that is going to sink its hooks in you the way it has me. [01:27] It's one of those where nothing makes sense and there are so many rabbit holes and red herrings involving real life struggles and supernatural beings that the lore of this story starts to become bigger than the facts of the case.

[01:42] But if you ask me, [01:43] The hard, cold facts tell a story of a family looking for a fresh start. [01:49] a family who was this close to getting it, [01:52] When something, [01:53] or someone intervened. [01:56] And if that's true, then someone is getting away with murder. [02:00] Because these undetermined deaths are no longer being actively worked. [02:04] making me wonder. [02:06] if there will ever be justice for the Jameson family. [02:10] Music. [02:42] October 17, 2009 isn't when the Jameson story begins. [02:47] But that is when everyone around them first realizes that something's wrong. [02:51] Because October 17th is when the Latimer County Sheriff's Office gets a call about an abandoned pickup truck on Panola Mountain. [02:59] which is a small part of the larger Sand Boys Mountain in Latimer County, Oklahoma. [03:04] This truck had been spotted there a few days earlier, but today was the day that someone noticed a dog trapped inside the locked truck.

[03:12] By the time Sheriff Israel Beacham and a few of his deputies arrive, it's already dark and they have to break a window to get the small, emaciated dog out. [03:21] Now, it's clear that she had been in there for days and was on the verge of, honestly, death. But the dog was maybe one of the least strange things found in the vehicle. [03:32] According to the Oklahoman, the keys are still in the ignition, even though the car was locked. Someone's BlackBerry was left behind, along with a few coats and other items of clothing, like a purse, $32,000 in cash in a bag under the seat. [03:47] and IDs belonging to Sherilyn and Bobby Jameson. [03:53] Then there's a seven-page letter signed by Sherilyn to Bobby, who, it becomes clear, is her husband. [04:01] Now, I have highlighted some of these parts, but I'm going to have you read it. [04:05] Bobby Jameson [04:07] I am writing you this letter with a spirit of truth and shame. [04:10] I am asking you forgiveness forever coming into your life for everything. [04:15] that I have done to you that has hurt or offended you. [04:18] I also ask that you forgive me for the things that I have done to you that has offended God and the Holy Spirit. [04:24] You have broken my heart and called me names like Whore, B- and Th- [04:29] I rebuke you and pray for your soul. [04:32] You are a very toxic person. [04:34] You need to find happiness. [04:35] You contaminate everyone that you are around. [04:38] It breaks my heart and sadden my soul that you have turned into the monster that you are.

[04:44] Thank God for... [04:46] It kind of cuts off. Yeah, like the coffee. Yeah. Yeah. [04:49] Maybe you and me both. [04:51] that with the force that you beat me on the spine that i did not have a heart attack [04:56] Or... [04:56] being paralyzed from the neck down. [04:59] You have tried to take my life on more than one occasion. [05:03] I would not wish my daughter to be raised in foster care because of you being in prison for attempted murder and her mother dead. [05:11] You have put me in the corner so many times that you have brought the worst out in me. [05:16] There is no need to keep writing. [05:18] I will pour my pain out in my own journal. [05:22] Thank you for my daughter. That's all God intended to happen. We were never meant to be together. [05:27] I fear for your soul. [05:29] Signed, Sherilyn. [05:31] Now... [05:32] - Beacham and his team know very little about the Jameson family at this point. So what this letter means or why there's so much cash in the car, [05:41] they don't know. I mean, all that attempted murder talk in the letter are like, [05:45] That would have me scared that this is some kind of like family annihilator situation. That would be worst case scenario. But they haven't found anything to prove that. Like there's no letter from Bobby back to her. There's no suicide note. [05:58] Though deputies have been able to piece together that it was Bobby who brought them up there. [06:03] It turns out he's spoken to a realtor about some land that was for sale up there on the mountain. And the realtor said that she usually takes people to go out and look at the properties because they are pretty hard to find. This is a super undeveloped, rugged area, like rugged terrain. But Bobby was pretty insistent that he was going to take his family, his wife, Sherilyn, and their six-year-old daughter, Madison, up there alone.

[06:25] Like if she could just give him the coordinates, they'd be fine. [06:29] So she did. [06:30] But that was back on October 8th. [06:33] Now, when they look at the BlackBerry that was left behind, it has GPS and the coordinates for the land are in it. [06:41] It looks like they got up there on the 8th at around 2.15 p.m. [06:45] But I'm not sure everything that comes after fits in with a plan for Bobby to do something to his family. [06:52] Because based on the GPS, it looks like they spent a little time just kind of like walking around and exploring. I mean, they were looking at nearly 40 acres. [07:00] And at one point, they actually ended up taking a photo of Madison that has become infamous in this case. [07:06] The picture was taken at 2.51 p.m. on the 8th, and she's in front of this cluster of rocks, like in the woods. [07:13] Now, it's clearly a candid photo. Her arms are like crossed, her mouth's like a little bit open, like maybe she was about to smile or say something or was in the middle of saying something. [07:22] And this is important to me because authorities found this phone [07:25] in the truck. [07:27] meaning that the Jamesons had the phone with them [07:30] While they were out and walking around, they know exactly where this picture was taken. [07:34] but they had come back to the truck. Even the way the truck was facing, [07:40] It's on this like narrow one lane road with a three foot drops on either side. [07:45] And it's pointed like they were about to head down the mountain. Like they were leaving. Yes. So what stopped them? [07:53] Now, there's nothing in the immediate area around the truck that would suggest something happened to the family there.

[08:00] No sign of a struggle. No blood. [08:02] But I will say there had been big rainstorms the last few days there that could have washed away evidence if there was any to find. [08:10] Either way, all signs point to bad. And authorities need to get boots on the ground and fine the Jamesons because [08:18] They're already days, if not a full week behind. [08:22] And this isn't going to be an easy search. [08:24] This area on the mountain, I said, rugged terrain. And I do not mean that lightly. This isn't a developed area with fully built homes or walking trails. This is middle of nowhere country. And the people who live up there are living off the grid. [08:39] In fact, that was Bobby and Sherilyn's plan. They were going to buy some land and live out of a shipping container and homeschool Madison. [08:47] Which honestly, when I heard this story years ago, back when I first learned about this case, like I couldn't even wrap my head around that. [08:54] off grid, I don't know, these days is kind of sounding more like the way to go. But like they were excited about this plant. [09:00] So over the next week or so, massive searches start getting underway to find the family. [09:06] They're combing the mountain up from the base through the north side into an area called Smokestack Hollow. [09:13] And not only are they dealing with the harsh environment as it normally is, but those rainstorms that they had earlier make it so that they're slogging through mud and wet brush along the way. [09:24] But they search and search and there is just not so much as a sign of this family.

[09:30] or what happened to them on the mountain. [09:33] But, [09:34] That might be because the biggest clues... [09:37] are actually buried in what was happening with the Jamesons, [09:40] before they ever even got to the mountain. [09:45] Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor SoFi comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget. We're talking about the potential to lower your interest rate, reduce your monthly payment, or even pay off your loan sooner depending on the term you choose. You can also consolidate your student loans into one simple monthly payment so you could save more each month and work towards achieving your long-term financial ambitions. Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. [10:13] SoFi offers competitive, fixed and variable rates and no origination fees, prepayment fees or late fees required. It takes just two minutes to check your rate with SoFi, and they have already helped over 500,000 members refinance more than 50 billion in student loans. Visit SoFi dot com slash crime junkie to see how much you can save. That's SoFi dot com slash crime junkie and start making smarter money moves with SoFi. SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank and a member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. [10:43] S 696891. [10:47] If you listen to this show, you already know that talking about mental health matters. But talking is just the start. Grow Therapy connects you with thousands of licensed therapists covered by your insurance, so you can turn that conversation into real support. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days.

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[12:52] Crime Junkie for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash Crime Junkie. [13:01] - Bobby and Sherilyn met around 2002, and they were married in an out-of-state wedding in 2004. [13:09] but many people didn't approve. [13:11] I actually spoke to a source who knew Bobby before and after Sherilyn, and they say that Bobby completely changed after getting with her. [13:19] Before, they said he was smart and creative, but they watched as he seemed to slip into addiction alongside Sherilyn. [13:27] Now, she had bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder and ADHD, all of which she was prescribed meds for, though she didn't always take them. [13:36] And the addiction she had to painkillers may have at least started as a way to self-medicate. [13:42] Then in 2003, Bobby suffered a bad back injury, like from a car accident. And so he began managing the chronic pain with pills. [13:50] which was a slippery slope. [13:51] Before he knew it, [13:53] He was addicted to pills, too. [13:55] With neither of them working, money was getting tighter and tighter. Their nice lake house in Eufaula, Oklahoma, was getting tougher and tougher to afford. And their financial troubles were putting a lot of stress on an already strained marriage. [14:09] It seems like Bobby and Sherilyn may have turned to lawsuits to solve some of their money problems. [14:14] We know that Bobby sued the people involved in his car accident. That was resolved in 2007. [14:19] And there's other documentation showing that he and Sherilyn were plaintiffs in a pair of civil suits.

[14:24] Then Sheriff Beecham told the Oklahoman that just before Bobby and Sherrilyn disappeared, they were planning to sue the Ufala School District. [14:31] But he didn't know what for. [14:32] I'm assuming it had something to do with Madison. People online do a lot of guessing, but the truth is that we weren't able to talk to anyone who really knows what that was about. [14:42] But there is one more documented lawsuit that I found really interesting because it was ongoing at the time that they disappeared. [14:50] And the person that Bobby was suing [14:52] was his own father. [14:54] Bob Jameson. [14:56] The claim started in 2008, and it all boiled down to this gas station Bob owned. [15:03] Bobby claimed that he worked for his dad at the gas station for free because his dad always told him that he would give him an ownership stake of the station when he sold it. [15:12] But apparently that never happened. [15:14] And then it just got uglier from there. [15:16] We spoke to Bobby's uncle, Jack, and he told us that Bob warned him Sherilyn was quote unquote dangerous. And Jack took that to mean physically because Bob told him this story about her pulling a gun on someone. [15:29] But she may have seemed dangerous in other ways to him, too. Because I spoke to someone who said that Sherilyn was spreading rumors that [15:36] that Bob was in the mafia. [15:38] which from Bobby's POV made his dad the dangerous one. [15:42] And at one point during the ongoing legal battle, he filed for a protective order against his father, claiming that he had tried to kill him on at least two occasions— [15:50] Once in November 2008, when Bob allegedly hit him with a car,

[15:54] and again in April 2009. [15:57] But I don't know what happened in that second incident. [16:00] But a protective order was issued following that in May of 2009. This is just five months before the Jamesons went missing. [16:08] So, [16:09] Maybe because of all of this going on or in spite of it. [16:13] It seems that by the end of the summer, at least, Sherilyn had gone off her meds, and clearly the effects were having a major impact. [16:22] Now, she had another child, an older son from a previous marriage. [16:27] And he told author Jake Anderson in his book, The Vanishing at Smokestack Hollow, [16:32] that Sherilyn had started physically abusing him. [16:35] So in August, he was removed from her care and sent to live with his dad. [16:39] And then in September, Sherilyn attempted suicide and was hospitalized for three weeks. [16:46] That same month, something strange started happening. [16:50] The shipping container that the family planned to live in was sitting near the driveway at their lake house property. [16:56] And Sherilyn started spray painting it with messages. [17:00] Things like "three cats killed to date by people in this area" [17:04] And witches don't like their black cat killed. Did she claim to be a witch? So this is the thing. I've heard a lot of different things. But her friend Nikki told people that she did this because a cat of hers had died. She thought it was the neighbors. And she just wanted to scare them to like make people think that she was someone that they wouldn't want to mess with. I didn't see any sign of her actually practicing witchcraft.

[17:26] In fact, in the time leading up to their disappearance, there's evidence that they were gravitating to more traditional religious outlets. [17:34] but still with a really dark focus. [17:37] You see, inside their house, investigators found pamphlets and books about death and the end of the world. [17:43] There were Bibles around the house that had highlighted verses that talk about the apocalypse. [17:48] Deputies learned that recently the Jamesons started going to this Seventh-day Aventus church, and a month before they disappeared, [17:55] They'd apparently reached out to the pastor asking for help with a really concerning problem. [18:01] They said that their house was being haunted. [18:05] by three or four spirits. [18:08] He said Sherilyn told him that Madison was speaking to two children and then Sherilyn's sister Marla, who had died two years earlier. And Bobby told the pastor that he was looking for some kind of like special bullets to kill demons. [18:22] And he was reading a satanic Bible to learn how to get rid of spirits. So is Bobby like humoring Sherilyn or is he like all in on believing this? It seems like he really believes it. [18:34] Because as easy as it would be to write this all off as just like, [18:38] from someone who was off their meds. There are some weird things that I have to tell you. [18:44] So we talked to Sherilyn's friend, Nikki. I mentioned that earlier. And [18:48] She says that they told her about the spirits, too. [18:52] And she says that she definitely believed that the Jameson's house was haunted because every time she visited them over the summer of 2008,

[19:01] There was just this heaviness in the house that she said made her sick to her stomach. [19:07] And there was one moment in particular that really freaked her out. [19:12] Nikki says that she and her husband were sitting with Sherilyn in the Jameson's living room [19:18] And... [19:19] Nikki could see this like huge gray mist floating down the stairs slowly. [19:27] And she said literally the hairs on the back of her neck stood straight up. And then she just watched it until it disappeared near the bottom of the stairs. [19:36] I'm sorry, like, paging Russia and Yvette, like, did this just turn into a so supernatural episode? Like, what? I don't know. [19:44] Listen, I know people will roll their eyes, whatever. This is these are people's own experiences. Right. [19:50] But it's really hard to write off the next thing, which brings me all the way up to October 8th, the day that the family goes missing. [19:59] Police docs show that Bobby called the realtor, whose name is Peggy, to ask about the land for sale at around 8 a.m. Per a written statement from her, Bobby told her that they were really interested in living off the grid. [20:11] They spoke for like two hours. And in this conversation, he talked about Madison and how smart she was and how he was excited to homeschool her. And he assured Peggy that he knew what they were getting into. [20:22] And she said that he sounded excited. [20:25] But nothing really jumped out at her. [20:27] It was like many of the conversations she had with people about selling land.

[20:32] So that call ends at 10 a.m. [20:34] At 10:30, [20:35] things get weird. [20:37] The Jamesons had a surveillance system set up around their home. [20:41] And when police pull the footage from that morning, [20:45] It shows the family loading up their truck from like 10.30 to 11.00. [20:50] except they're not really loading much. [20:53] It's like the most eerie thing, Brett. [20:55] Now, there are only clips of this video that live online today. As far as I could tell, the full video that captured multiple angles during this time has never been released. [21:05] And when we tried to FOIA them, we were told that the original [21:09] no longer exists because apparently a flood at the department where it was stored ruined it. [21:15] But in the little bit that was released to the media and that has survived. [21:19] You can see Bobby and Sherilyn [21:22] walking back and forth to the truck over and over and over. [21:27] But no one can figure out why. [21:30] Like the truck doors appear to be open, but it's not like they're loading it up. Most of the time they're walking back and forth with nothing in their hands. [21:38] Though at one point, authorities say that they see Sherilyn take what looks like a brown briefcase type thing, like a bag to the pickup truck. [21:47] Now, I don't see a clear moment of that in the short clips we have. [21:52] If it is included in what we're looking at, I'm thinking it might be right here at this moment. You can kind of see like, [22:00] I don't know if you see that, like a shadow, right? Like on the side of Sherilyn by her legs. Yeah. But the footage is like isn't great quality. So like it's really hard to tell.

[22:10] Now, this video has become hugely sensationalized because this idea has kind of gotten perpetuated that the way they were walking was like they were in hell. [22:21] a trance. [22:23] which makes for good TV when you've got talk of witches and demon-killing bullets. [22:28] But I'm a little reluctant to go all in on that based on what I've seen. Yeah, I mean, I can hardly tell anything from this, like... [22:35] kind of really short loop of footage. Right. And I don't know what's been manipulated or cut. Right. Or even if like these are like consecutive. Right. We can't even see time stamps. [22:46] So I don't know what to make of it. [22:48] After a full half hour of this, that's when they set off to make the about one hour drive to the coordinates that they've been given. [22:57] But they make a few stops first to go look at some other land, which suggests to me that this idea of buying the land and the reason they're going up there isn't some ruse. Right, like it's legit. Even more evidence of that is the fact that on their way up the mountain, they stopped at the home of this guy named Dan Clemens. He lived on the mountain just a quarter of a mile from where the Jameson's truck would be found. [23:19] And in Dan's written statement, he said that he talked to the family for like 45 minutes before they headed up to the property. He was like telling them, you know, about what it's like to live up there, whatever. It's a land type. Yeah. And he told them to stop by on their way out. [23:31] But he says they just never did. [23:34] Now, we know they arrive at the 40-acre property at 215. [23:37] 251, that photograph of Madison was taken.

[23:41] And then... [23:41] Poof! [23:42] The entire family is just gone. [23:45] All of their stuff just left behind. [23:47] Well, all their stuff, that is, except... [23:50] one thing [23:52] The brown bag that authorities say Sherilyn was seen carrying to the truck in the surveillance footage [23:58] is not found. [24:01] Do they know what was or what might have been in it? No, that's like, that's the question. [24:07] And no one is ever going to know for sure, because spoiler alert to this day, that bag has never been found. [24:15] But Sheriff Beecham told the Oklahoman back in the day that he thinks the bag could have had money in it. [24:22] Now, [24:23] how much and what was the money for, this is where we can spiral. [24:28] Remember how there was like almost $32,000 under the seat, like when the car was found? Yeah, because that's like a lot of cash. Right. So like that's the kind of thing that will make you think that this isn't something involving foul play, like at the hands of a stranger. Right. Because like who is going to kill an entire family and not take the $32,000 in cash? Right. [24:47] Well, Sheriff Beecham wouldn't return our calls, but I did catch a recent interview that he did on a podcast called I Don't Drink Coffee, where he dives into his theory a little bit. [24:57] So remember the lawsuit that Bobby filed after he was hurt in the car accident? Yeah. Yeah. [25:02] So Bobby's mom, Star, apparently told investigators that he got a $64,000 settlement for that. [25:09] and that he and Sherilyn split it down the middle. So $32,000 each. Correct.

[25:15] So the theory that kind of gets floated is that maybe someone did make away with things. [25:22] $32,000 or something around there. In the purse or the bag? They just didn't know that there was a whole second bag of money kind of hidden away in the truck. Hmm. [25:32] Now, the only issue I have with that, though, is that is a lot of cash to just be sitting on from 2007 when that lawsuit settled to October of 2009, especially if there really were all these substance use problems. [25:47] Not that it can't be done, but [25:48] I don't know. They're having financial troubles, yet they're like just sitting on this like cash. For how long? It's weird to me. Yeah. Now, others have speculated that maybe it was drugs that was in the Brown briefcase. And that's usually from the camp of people who see the surveillance footage and they don't think that they're in a trance, but rather they think they're going to be drugged out, which is what a psychologist that the sheriff's office brought in believed and told them. [26:13] which is just as, if not more plausible. [26:17] And when you think about it, like how this all played out, there's a half an hour between when Bobby gets off the phone with Peggy [26:23] And then when he is seen on the camera. [26:25] And I say that because, like, she doesn't make any indication that he is speaking strangely, that he's sounding intoxicated. Right. Like, it's a very normal conversation with her, with, like, a possible buyer. So I'm saying if you're going to say then, like, a half hour later, he's, like, in a trance or so drugged out that he's acting weird, like... [26:42] There's a short window of time where... [26:43] like something might have happened after he got off the phone. Right. There's like this gap. Right. And he could have taken something. So like she doesn't know what he's like high or not. Right. Like. Right. For sure. Like, I mean, he could have been high functioning. Right.

[26:58] I think the thing that I take issue with is there's, to me, a big difference between having an hours long conversation with someone. And like I said, and then behaving in a way that some people would characterize it as being in a trance. Right. Like there has to be like something that has a shift between those two times. Right. Ghosts. Is it drugs? Otherwise, like whatever. Which makes me go back to questioning even. . . [27:20] the basis of this, like that video. Again, I'm not seeing weird movements or actions from the short clips that we have. I'm kind of taking law enforcement at their word here that the way they were moving was super weird. [27:35] If there is a world where their movements over the full video weren't all that weird, and this is something that has just gotten blown up over the years. [27:42] then they might have been in perfectly fine condition. And then nothing weird happened after the call with the realtor. They were just getting ready to leave. And I'd like to say, like, getting ready to leave with, like, a small child. Yes. Which is not the easiest, most clear-cut, direct thing to ever do. Totally fair. But usually if I'm thinking about, like, the stuff that, like, holds me up with Joe, it's like I'm... It's stuff. It's things. It is. It's the stuff. It's the not having stuff that I think is... Is the weirdest part of it. Odd. Yeah. [28:10] But if we are talking drugs, [28:12] In Oklahoma in 2009, meth is what everyone was concerned about. Use and production was rising at the time. And locals actually told us that the northern part of these mountains in particular are known for illegal activity like drugs and dumping.

[28:28] So, [28:29] Weird behavior, large amount of cash, [28:32] For a moment, even the police think maybe this whole property sale thing was a ruse and they were really going up the mountain to make some kind of drug deal. But authorities debunk this one pretty quickly because they don't find any illegal drugs in the Jameson's house or their truck. [28:50] And they're not finding any evidence that Bobby or Sherilyn were illegal drug dealers or users. It seems like everything that they were on was prescription. [28:58] Though I will say, Bobby's uncle Jack told us that he thought Bobby was using something other than painkillers. But not enough for their home or truck to show signs of that. Right. So... [29:11] I don't think that it was drugs in Sherilyn's bag. [29:16] Now, the only other thing that might have been in the bag, the only other thing that has never been found, [29:22] is a .22 caliber gun that Sherrilyn owned. [29:26] Like drugs or money, we can't confirm that she took it up the mountain with her that day. We just know that it is totally MIA. [29:34] It wasn't in the home when they searched it, and it wasn't in the truck. [29:38] So. [29:39] Was it money? Was it a gun? Was it some combination of things in that bag? [29:44] I don't know. [29:45] But knowing everything you do now, [29:48] you might see why many in the public start honing in on a theory. [29:53] that it was actually Sherilyn. [29:55] off her meds having recently been suicidal

[29:58] that picked out this plot of land, wrote a scathing letter to her husband, that she read all the way up there, and then once they got to the right place, she enacted some kind of murder-suicide plot. Okay, but then... [30:12] Where are they? [30:14] That's the big hole, right? [30:16] Why can't anyone find them after weeks and then months of searching? Well, and it doesn't make sense to me, at least, why you'd leave your dog locked in the car. Like, that's a prolonged death sentence for the pup. Like, yeah, not to get graphic, but if the dog was shot, like, that's one thing. Like, that's like everybody then. No, I know exactly what you mean. Like, let the dog run free, leave the dog at home or like do a million other things. But this seems like the cruelest fate. [30:46] that dog like she would not have gone anywhere without it so it's just like another part that does not add up yeah [30:53] Other things that don't add up to me are like the key being in the ignition and almost all of their things being back in the car. [31:00] If she wanted to take her family out to the wilderness and end things... [31:05] then why wouldn't the phone still be with them? [31:07] Like, why not the keys? [31:09] They went back to the truck. They had to have gotten in [31:13] and then turned around so they were ready to go down this one lane mountain road [31:17] Then something happened to them. [31:20] That, like, doesn't fit for me. Well, that's assuming this was a murder-suicide. [31:25] What if that briefcase she had had the gun? [31:28] had the money,

[31:29] and she was going to disappear. [31:31] Well... [31:32] That would have been a plausible theory. I mean, really, for either Sherilyn or Bobby. [31:37] But... [31:38] That stops being a plausible theory in 2013. [31:42] Because that's when the entire family is... [31:45] actually found. [31:46] not too far from where their abandoned truck stood, [31:50] four years earlier. [31:53] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode psychological thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. Watch Cape Fear streaming now on Apple TV. [32:21] Summer's here, and whether you're traveling, shuttling kids to camp, or spending long days by the pool, staying healthy and on budget, is always top of mind. That's where GoodRx can help. GoodRx can help you save up to 80% on prescriptions for you and your family. [32:36] Even your pets, too. Just check GoodRx before every pharmacy run to find big savings on both brand name and generic medications. [32:42] I love seeing how many options they have to save. [32:46] GoodRx is free and easy to use. Just search for your prescription on the website or app, compare prices, and get a free coupon to show your pharmacist. Use GoodRx to save at over 70,000 pharmacies nationwide, including Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Publix, Kroger, and many more. GoodRx is not insurance, but it works whether you have insurance or not, and it could even beat your copay price. Save time and money at the pharmacy this summer. Go to GoodRx.com slash Crime Junkie.

[33:16] Download the free GoodRx app. [33:18] On November 16, 2013, this is four years after the Jamesons disappeared, [33:25] A man named Tim Graham is with his wife and family on their annual hunting trip to the mountain. [33:32] They were just looking for signs of deer when Tim sees something strange in the brush, about like [redacted address]. [33:39] He looks like a turtle shell at first. [33:42] It's weathered, discolored, and a little stuck to the ground. [33:46] But when he picks it up, [33:48] He realizes that it is a skull. [33:50] and there is a small hole near the forehead. [33:54] Now, Tim immediately puts it down and yells to his wife, but then... [33:57] He sees another one. [33:58] like a slightly smaller one. [34:00] And then as the family is trying to get out of there and to go tell someone what they found, Tim's wife spots a third person. [34:06] really small skull with two front teeth missing. [34:10] And her mind immediately goes to the Jamesons because she remembers seeing missing persons posters for the family. [34:18] Madison's toothless grin is seared in her brain. [34:21] And in that moment, she says to her husband, [34:24] Oh my goodness. [34:25] I believe we just found that family that was missing. [34:28] And she was right. [34:30] Now, there wasn't much left out there, just an arm and a leg bone, a left boot, scraps of another boot and a child's shoe. [34:38] but nothing else. [34:39] No briefcase, no gun. [34:42] And after about seven months of analysis in June 2014, they're able to confirm that they found the entire family just 2.6 miles from where their truck was found.

[34:55] Like... [34:56] 2.6, like two and a half miles away. [34:58] That's it. Oh, my God. Which, like, I know this sounds like nothing to us, like, flatlanded folk who, like, live in the Midwest. Oh, I can see five miles for ages. Yeah, fields and fields. But Beecham said that to go from where their truck was found to where their skulls were recovered, like, as the crow flies, [35:15] It would take like a half day for someone who is in great shape to hike. [35:19] which makes this location all the more strange, because Bobby was not in great shape. He had chronic back pain. - Oh yeah. - And I don't know if you've tried hiking with a six-year-old recently, but like, [35:30] In this area, that would slow you way down. Most people don't think there is any way that they got to that location on their own. And this completely nixes the murder-suicide theory. Like, it has to be foul play. But for some reason... [35:45] It doesn't for some people. [35:47] Right. So like, [35:49] Let's talk theories like and what works and what doesn't work. [35:52] So first, the murder-suicide theory. [35:55] People still point to Sherilyn's mental instability. And like that hate letter is what they call it. The one that was in the truck. [36:02] as proof that she killed her family and herself. Okay, but... [36:06] If they never found a gun and they can't determine a cause of death, that seems like it takes away... [36:10] all of the elements that you need to make murder-suicide work. If it was a gun that was used and if they were shot in the head. And wasn't there a hole in Bobby's head? [36:22] Yeah, but they officially say that that hole is from animal activity. But like, I'm with you, like you could have been shot in like the fleshy parts of your body that you wouldn't see from the few pieces that they were able to collect.

[36:34] But even then, you should see bullet fragments and a gun left behind. But I mean, kind of going back to it, like if a gun was used, right? Like that's not the only way it could have gone down. Yes and no. Like I kind of disagree because like unless mom and dad were in on this together and like quite literally drinking the Kool-Aid, you have to do something quick like a gun. I don't think you can overpower the other parent and kill Madison without being stopped. You know what I mean? Yeah. [37:01] And so much of what we know doesn't make sense with this to me. Like, why are the keys and the phone back in the truck? Why was the truck positioned like it was going back down the mountain? Where is the brown briefcase? [37:16] I don't know, like what if someone came across the remains or the briefcase and just never reported it, especially the briefcase, especially if the briefcase had money in it. Yeah, I mean, I could see that for this area, but it seems more likely to me that it would have been left in the truck and then someone rifled through that once they'd seen the truck unoccupied for a couple of days. And they just like make a quick grab for the briefcase, maybe miss the fact that there's other money under the seat. [37:42] But like in that case, again, they're not like running off with stuff like where they are. [37:45] where the remains are, you know what I mean? Right. But whatever someone taking the brown bag solves, it solves none of the other problems I have with this story. How did they get to where they were? Because I don't believe that they walk, especially if this was a plan that just one of them had. Like, [38:03] Okay, can you please leave your keys in the ignition, $32,000 under the seat, and your GPS behind, and let's just, like, take a walk into the wilderness. Right. No, that is going to raise, like, all sorts of alarm bells. 1,000%.

[38:17] So, [38:18] Theory Number 2 [38:19] Misadventure. [38:21] And. [38:21] misadventure, this idea that they, like, somehow got stuck out there and died. [38:26] it doesn't work for me for all the same reasons above. Yeah. But okay. [38:31] Say they were high or something. They're doing things that don't make sense. [38:35] Actually, this is the only theory where the strange surveillance footage makes... [38:40] like even a little bit of sense or like contributes to something. I think in every other scenario, that's the thing that is like, [38:46] Always this weird outlet in anywhere. But like, OK, whatever. Say you're high. You're acting weird before you even get there. You spend your time in the mountains and you're about to leave and go down the mountain. And you're like, you know what? [38:58] Nope. Like, let's just start walking into the great wide nowhere without our coats or a phone or anything else that we previously brought and used with us for the first time that we're exploring this place. [39:09] Because remember, they did bring their BlackBerry with GPS when they were walking between 215 and 250. So like they were using their GPS. Right. But you know what? Let's just do it without it for the funsies. Say all that happened. [39:20] Here's the thing that doesn't make sense to me. [39:22] I don't think they would all die and end up in the same place. [39:26] Like, if that's the scenario. Right. No, because they'd have to, like... [39:30] The remains are all found. [39:32] together at the same place. - So they die at the same time, in the same place. And also with this theory, I'm thinking like, that means that they're high from the time that they leave the house to the time they get to the mountain. We know that they go to a couple different, like, plots of land first. They talk to a guy. [39:46] on the mountain for like 45 minutes before they get to their like final location. It just like that. That feels like it would flat like that would flag somewhere along the way. Right. I would think.

[39:56] Again, this does not add up for me. [39:59] Which brings me to theory number three. [40:02] which is foul play. [40:04] This is the only theory that I think works because it's the only one where most of the pieces we have fit together. [40:12] The Jamesons have come to the mountain. They looked around. They'd gotten back in their truck and turned around ready to go home. [40:19] But then they were stopped somehow. [40:21] Maybe it was innocent at first, or maybe there was no niceties and they were forced out of their truck with like the threat of violence. [40:28] Either way, I think they get out so quickly that Bobby doesn't even pull the key out of the ignition or grab his phone. And they leave their dog inside the car. [40:38] Then I think they're driven somewhere else and eventually killed, which I [40:44] Like you said, this is a theory that fits the most pieces. [40:48] But they're still kind of... [40:50] gaping hole in the theory. Like, [40:52] Who would know that they would be out there then? That is the key to everything. [40:58] But it's a short list. So remember, barely anyone knew that the family was even gone. Like they didn't it wasn't like abnormal for them to go away for a couple of days. It's why they didn't get reported missing before their truck is found. [41:10] So it's not like they checked in a lot with people or had anyone really keeping tabs on them. [41:16] So really, there's only like two people close to them that authorities look at. [41:20] and then people who were up on the mountain. [41:23] Now, of the two people who were close to the family, there's no evidence that they actually knew where the Jamesons were headed on October 8th.

[41:29] But those are just the two people who might have had motives. They have to look at those people. [41:34] Now, the first is Bobby's dad because of the lawsuit and the protective order. But by the time the Jamesons went missing, Bob's health was deteriorated. And he was actually living in like a nursing home or some kind of like hospice care. [41:46] He was so sick that he could barely take care of himself, let alone hike a mountain or hurt his son and his family. [41:53] And there is no evidence that he could be tied to their disappearance in any way. [41:58] So authorities rule him out pretty quick. And Bob actually passed away just two months after they all went missing in December 2009. [42:05] So the second person that they look at who had a personal connection to the family was this guy named Kenneth Bellows. [42:12] He actually lived with the family at their lake house in Eufaula over the summer. [42:16] The boarding arrangement was part of his compensation for helping them with things around the house since Bobby's back pain had gotten so bad that he couldn't do much. [42:24] But there was a huge falling out because apparently Kenneth told Sherilyn that he was a white supremacist and said that people who had Native American heritage, like she did. [42:34] should die. So Sherilyn ended up shooting at him and kicking him out of the house. [42:40] Butch. [42:41] In the end, Kenneth ends up providing the sheriff's office with a really solid alibi. [42:47] And I don't think they could even prove that he knew where the family was going that day since he'd been kicked out weeks before and hadn't had contact with the family since. [42:56] So, [42:57] Both dad and Kenneth cleared.

[43:01] Which means that either leaves someone else who [43:04] They knew personally, who just hasn't come up in the investigation. [43:08] Or someone who lived on the mountain. [43:12] Whichever it is, [43:13] there might be someone out there who has the answer. [43:17] You see, Israel Beecham has retired from the sheriff's office. [43:21] But in his 2020 podcast interview with the host of I Don't Drink Coffee... [43:25] He said in no uncertain terms that he believes the Jamesons were murdered, and he even thinks he knows who killed them. [43:34] He just had no way to prove it. [43:36] And he said he thinks someone shot Bobby and Sherilyn and then just left Madison on her own to die. [43:43] And when it came to why, [43:45] All he would say, [43:47] is follow the money. [43:49] and that's the thing i keep coming back to why did they have that much money in their car anyways [43:56] I mean, this wasn't like an uber wealthy couple with cash just like coming out of their ears. Yeah. I think it's risky to drive around with that much money, like, you know, maybe thirty two thousand dollars, maybe more. That's not something you do unless you're intending to use that money. I was going to say without like intention, like to take it somewhere, to deposit it, for it to change hands. And we know that they were going up there to possibly make a purchase. [44:20] So who knew that they were coming up there to make a purchase? [44:26] The answer is two people. [44:28] One, the realtor Peggy. And two, Dan Clemens, the local landowner. And there's something I didn't tell you about Dan.

[44:38] He actually claims to have seen the family on two different days. [44:43] According to his statement, the Jameson family was up on the mountain the day before they got the coordinates from Peggy. [44:50] Apparently, they had seen the property online and they decided to just like drive up and check it out on their own. [44:56] But according to him, they had trouble finding it. So they pulled up to his place, likely since he was like the nearest house to, you know, where the property was. It was like a quarter mile away. They were asking for directions, he says. [45:08] And he says he talked to them that time for like an hour about, you know, building off grid like herbal medicines. And he is the one who ended up giving them Peggy's number to call the next day. [45:19] And he's like, listen, you contact her, come back in the morning, because it was like 6 p.m. by that point. So by the time they're done talking, it's like 7, it's like getting dark. He's like, it's not even safe for you to be out here exploring the mountain in the dark. [45:31] So he says they leave. He says they do stop by the next day at around noon, where they speak for another 45 minutes. And then the family headed up to check out the land. [45:41] Now, remember, he told them to stop back by, but they never did. But he says they never did. Right. Right. [45:46] Now, [45:47] Right away, this is a little off to me because if they are talking to him, he says they start talking around like noon. If they're talking to him till like 1245, why does their GPS say that they make it to the land at 215? [45:58] Where are they for the hour and a half in between? Right. We're a quarter of a mile from where their truck is. [46:05] And, you know, were his times just off? Like, maybe.

[46:08] Either way, he apparently wasn't concerned when they didn't stop back by and wasn't concerned that he never heard from them again. [46:15] It's worth pointing out that if all of Dan's statements are true, like, [46:19] This makes the murder-suicide theory even less plausible to me. Because, like, why not do it the day before when, like, Peggy doesn't even know you're out there, right? The realtor. [46:29] They're spending a lot of time, multiple trips, talking to people about buying this land. Yes. Finding the exact location. Like. [46:35] You don't need any of that if you just want to go to the woods, go to the middle of nowhere for this murder-suicide plan. Totally. Everything about the circumstances makes me believe that they were up there to buy land. [46:47] planning for their future. And on October 8th, something or someone stopped them. [46:53] Now, based on Peggy's statement to police, someone alerts her to the Jameson's truck being there on the 15th. This is two days before this story started. [47:03] And I guess at the time she was like, oh, no biggie, whatever. The family probably just wanted to take a second look at the land. Happens all the time. So she didn't do anything. [47:11] But then two days pass, and it's the 17th at 3 p.m. when Dan is first alerted to the truck being there. [47:19] He said two people on four-wheelers stopped by his place and told him that there was this abandoned truck with a dog inside. [47:24] And I guess he like asked him questions about the truck, specific features or whatever. And he realizes that the description sounded like the family that he had talked to. [47:32] So he got worried and called Peggy. [47:35] Peggy then tries the family, but she couldn't reach them. And so then Dan called a neighbor to go look at the truck with him.

[47:42] But by the time they go up there together, it's 5.30 p.m. [47:45] And that's when Dan says that he first saw the abandoned truck for himself. [47:49] But he doesn't call police right away. [47:52] He does his own search, looking for the family first. [47:56] And Peggy is actually the one who ends up calling the deputies, who then arrive at the truck at around 7.30 p.m. [48:04] Here's what I find odd. [48:05] One. [48:06] Why not call the authorities herself? Like Peggy's the one that has to do that. Like the second you hear about this trap dog and you're admitting that you're making this connection to the Jamesons, like why wait? [48:18] to [48:18] I find it super weird that he wanted to wait for a friend to go look at the truck with him. Right. Like there is no context in the report for why he did this. [48:28] Maybe he didn't have a vehicle of any kind. Or maybe he wanted someone else to find it. Right. He's creating this distance between himself and the truck. This has me wondering, like, [48:40] was there any way he could have been behind the first call on the 15th like hey there's this truck up here like trying to get someone else to get up there [48:48] Then I don't see evidence of that. I had literally had the same thought, but that call came from another landowner in the area who is named. So like if there's a world where he was behind it, he would have had to get that person to call. And again, like I said, there's no evidence that that happened. [49:02] The thing I'll say, though, is like who isn't named are the two people on the four wheelers that apparently alerted him to the truck on the 17th. From what I have, I can't tell if police ever even identified those men, if they ever talked to them to verify Dan's story. Mm hmm.

[49:16] My biggest question too is about the long conversations they had. They talked for an hour the first day, 45 minutes the next day, [49:24] So... [49:24] At any point did it come up [49:27] that they would be traveling up there with cash. [49:31] Did it come up that nobody would really know where they were? Mm-hmm. [49:36] We couldn't reach Dan for this episode, so we couldn't ask him ourselves what those conversations were. And do we know was the truck ever processed for, like, prints or anything? Like, could they tell if someone else drove it? [49:48] Because like maybe there's a scenario where the family left on their own or otherwise and someone brought the truck back. [49:54] back to this area later. Yeah. So according to police docs, they did process the truck, but it doesn't go into detail about what was found. So I don't know if they got anything good. I don't know if they got anything to compare to anyone. I don't know if it was like all wiped down. And then based on what we have, when it comes to Dan, it just says that they thoroughly checked him with quote unquote negative results. [50:15] But we looked into Dan Clemens ourselves when we were reporting on this case in late 2025. [50:20] And we found something pretty interesting. [50:22] A man with the same name and the right age was arrested in 2017 for killing a man back in 1997. [50:31] Now, we haven't confirmed whether these are the same people since Dan would not return our calls. But we showed Sherilyn's friend Nikki this guy's mugshot. And she confirmed that that is the same man she knew as Dan Clemens, who she had interactions with on the mountain while searching for the Jamesons. So this 97 homicide, like, is it similar? Do we know much about it? I don't know a ton. All I was able to find was that. So, like I said, it happens in 97.

[51:01] California. [51:02] Nothing is taken from the house, but his killer took his truck and drove it up to San Francisco. [51:08] And, [51:09] Must have fled or whatever, because they end up arresting this Dan Clemens guy in Oklahoma. This is where, like, our story takes place. [51:16] where he'd been living under a fake name. [51:19] And the Trinity Journal reported that Dan ultimately pled no contest to voluntary manslaughter and got three years in prison as part of a plea deal. I mean, OK, I assume police would have known about this at the time, though. I would hope so. [51:35] If it was, in fact, the same Dan. Right. [51:39] But it's not mentioned anywhere in the reports that we've gotten. All we see when it comes to Dan is that they thoroughly checked him with negative results. Which I still don't even know what that means. But did they thoroughly check anyone else on the mountain? I'm sure they talked to as many people as they could. Like, I don't know. I don't have a list of everyone. But I do know one person because we tracked her down. Her name is Anne-Marie Duhon. [52:04] And I specifically tracked her down because as we were reporting on this, I heard this rumor that her and her family moved off the mountain not long after the Jamesons went missing. [52:13] So people were wondering if her and her husband might have been involved. [52:18] And I actually found this like, you know, these are rumors now, but I found a tip in the file that someone had made about them back in 2010. [52:25] But our reporter, Char Adams, tracked Anne down, and she says that deputies did question her about the Jameson's disappearance.

[52:32] And she just laughed in their face, she said. [52:34] She says that her and her family moved off the mountain in the fall of 2010 because they'd been homeschooling their children and they wanted to move the kids back down so they could go to school. [52:44] Though that's not quite how her daughter remembers it when I talk to her daughter. [52:49] She told us that her parents were not good people and that they moved off the mountain so abruptly that they left a bunch of their stuff. [52:57] But Anne was never named as a suspect, and she denies having anything to do with what happened to the Jamesons. [53:02] So I'm sure there are even more stories like that. I just haven't been able to track down every person who is on the mountain because turns out living off the grid makes it kind of hard to find you. Off the grid is off the grid. Truly. Truly. [53:16] Now, if anyone on the mountain did it, [53:18] I have to believe the motive was money. [53:22] Beecham said, follow the money. [53:24] But to who? [53:25] Like I said, he never got back to us for this episode. [53:28] But Bobby's Uncle Jack really wants to know what more Beecham knows that he hasn't shared in all these years. [53:34] Maybe all the pieces are there. [53:37] Maybe they're just held by different people. [53:40] The problem is, it doesn't seem like anyone is really investigating this. [53:45] It's that weird catch-22 we often see where the ME classified these deaths as undetermined. [53:51] So there is no homicide that is being investigated. [53:55] All the investigative files we have were from when this was a missing persons case. [54:00] Now it's just in limbo.

[54:02] Meaning that if Bobby, Sherilyn, and Madison... [54:05] We're killed by someone. [54:07] That someone. [54:09] has gotten away with murder, [54:11] But it doesn't always have to be that way. [54:14] If anyone out there knows something that could change the status of this case, you can contact the Latimer County Sheriff's Office at 918-918-918. [54:23] 465. [54:25] 4 0 1 3. [54:40] You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. [54:51] But, [54:51] Stick around, because we have some good. [55:18] Okay, Ashley, I have a really cool story that I'm really excited to tell you. [55:24] I've always loved true crime, but I wasn't sure if a career in it was right for me. [55:27] I followed the path of veterinary medicine for a while until recently getting into nursing school. [55:32] I had known about Crime Junkie for a while, but this past summer started from the beginning to watch every episode through work,

[55:37] study sessions, car drives, and cleaning the house. [55:40] Crime Junkie was always there to keep me company. [55:42] After some thought... [55:44] I've decided I'd like to earn my nurse practitioner license and study forensic nursing. I want to be a piece of the bridge between medical and legal to help the victims get the care and justice they deserve. [55:56] I find it to be a privilege to be able to give them either care and dignity. [56:00] before they are laid to rest, [56:02] or a safe person to help them move forward in their next steps of life after being involved in a trauma. [56:07] I'd specifically like to earn my SANE credentials [56:10] and take care of sexual assault and rape victims, as these people may feel like they lose their voice during their battle. But my voice is loud. [56:18] and will be heard and I will use it to advocate for victims. [56:22] If not for Crime Junkie, I wouldn't understand how important and vital this is. And every episode provides me with motivation to keep working for this goal. [56:30] Thank you, Ashley and Britt. [56:32] Ella [56:33] a fellow Hoosier. Oh, this was like so many crime junkie boxes. She started in vet med and then went into nursing school and becoming SANE certified is just really incredible. And I was so excited to hear from her. It's like it's wild, like keeping track of how many people have like changed their career paths and like unbelievable. It's so true. It's like not always like the most glamorous work, but there's like so many different occupations that touch true crime that you like don't often think of like like a forensic nurse. Yeah, it's amazing. [57:03] Thank you, Ella. [57:06] Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production.

[57:09] I think Chuck would approve. [57:10] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. [57:36] I think you'll love it too. [57:37] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.