#2177 - Chris Robinson

[00:01] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Okay, so that's the first season, like 1972 or 3, I think? [00:16] Columbo. [00:17] I almost forgot about that show. They used to tell him not to smoke? Yeah. [00:20] Well, no, like the character, I can tell they're probably just building up. Like you notice that he has a cigar in his hands, the whole series or every episode. But it's funny that in 1972 people are like, please don't smoke in here. Or Lieutenant Columbo, he's always being reprimanded for it. [00:39] Interesting. I forgot about that. And he's always really... [00:43] You know, Peter Fox, he's always like, oh, sorry. And he puts it out always. He's never, like, upset or anything. [00:48] Yeah, that was an interesting character, right? Because he was like this bumbling guy who was actually not. He was kind of setting you up the whole time, letting you underestimate him. [00:57] Excellent. [00:58] Pardon me. But another thing. He's always about to leave, and he's like, oh, yeah. And he comes back. And he's annoying people, and they're like, oh. Incredible, though, aesthetic. And, like, the other day I'm watching this episode that Jonathan Demme directed, Steven Spielberg. I mean, like, all of these... [01:17] Famous directors start to cut their teeth in TV and on episodic things like that. But there's a real tone to it and stuff that's cool in the way everyone looked. But one other funny thing about it that I've noticed in Columbo is it always starts with a murder and then...

[01:35] Yeah. [01:36] usually a lot of times in the arc of the story someone shows up to the crime scene usually whoever did it or whatever right [01:44] And so... [01:46] But they're never upset. There's never someone that runs and says, what happened here? Your uncle's been murdered. Oh, I didn't do it. It's kind of like how it starts instead of some dramatic, oh, my God. [02:01] How could this – no one's even – they're just like, okay, well, you're bothering me now. In cop shows, you can always tell police – even SVU, they're always like, I've had enough. Can you guys leave? And they leave. I'm like, is that how it goes? I don't know. No. [02:16] It's weird how many of those shows there are. [02:20] where they catch the bad guy. [02:22] Like that is – it's like something that I guess people with anxiety need to let them feel like if someone is a bad person and they do commit a murder, they're going to get caught. Like are the interest in those kind of dark scenarios – [02:38] You're only interested in them when there's justice at the end. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, for sure. Because anything nebulous or whatever is like too real, maybe. Yeah, there's those shows and then there's medical shows. Remember when there was there was a time where they're like every other fucking show on TV was about a hospital? [02:55] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the only one that I really remember is Quincy. So Jack Klugman yelling at everyone. He's yelling about the sandwich. He's yelling about the blood sample. When we were kids, we were hardcore. We were in that initial phase of American kind of hardcore punk stuff. Because we had just missed out the...

[03:16] like 77, 78, 79. And then there was an episode... [03:21] about [03:22] The L.A. scene. And Quincy goes to the punk club. Don't you see what you kids are doing to yourselves with the loud music and the anger and the pills or whatever? And there was a thing when we were kids. And there was a song. I forget which band did it. [03:41] But you were fake if you were a Quincy punk, because they took the way people looked on Quincy or whatever. [03:49] That instantly became... A fake punk. Yeah, yeah, you're bullshit. When you started out, what was the inspirations for your band? What were you guys into? Yeah. [04:00] I mean, it's hard to untangle because... [04:05] my dad was a singer. So our dad was a singer. And, [04:11] He was very... Well, my dad's kind of a strange guy in general. Um... [04:16] A lovely guy, but dynamic, to say the least. But he had like a hit in the late 50s called Boom-A-Dip-Dip. Like a top 40 kind of record. [04:28] And a couple of subsequent sort of... [04:30] . [04:32] you know, rock and roll singles. And he was living in New York and stuff. And then when he... That kind of... [04:38] pales out and then he moves back to Atlanta and he immerses himself in like the folk music scene. [04:43] And he was signed to a label called ABC Paramount. [04:45] so by the time I come along in 66 it's kind of he's not doing it anymore

[04:53] What was he doing? He was a schmata guy. He was in the middleman. He was like Willie Loman. He was in the... [05:02] garment business my his my grandfather and [05:06] Ike Robinson, they were in children's wear. My dad was in women's wear. And then ended later back in children's wear. [05:14] But the one thing around the house that I remember earliest memories are him pulling out his guitar and singing folk songs. [05:22] And [05:24] Just... [05:25] I don't know. I'm a dyslexic person and... [05:31] So my... [05:33] You know what I mean? So there was I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But there was something about always singing these songs. It would like open up stuff for me, almost like being higher and not in a psychedelic way, but in a way that it changed the space. You know what I mean? And records started doing that to me very early. [05:55] And that kind of is where... So it's kind of... We think it's normal. Other kids' dads aren't playing old folk songs at the house that I know. But by the time Rich and I... We're kind of like... [06:07] Angst ridden suburban youth, you know, for some reason, my parents decided to move to the suburbs, financial reasons, general apathy, you know, ready to, you know, begin the mound of resentment and regret. I don't know.

[06:25] All the things the suburbs represent me, you know what I mean? Yeah. [06:30] I would say for me... [06:34] There was a television show, and do you remember Night Flight? [06:38] on USA Network back in the early days. I remember the name. I don't even remember what it was about. Yeah, it would be like... It would come on at midnight, and it would be concerts and, like, films. Like, cool... It was probably the first time I saw Eraserhead, or Rude Boy, the movie about the Clash, and... [06:57] you know, decline in Western civilization, punk things and new wave things. And, uh, [07:03] I always had an interest in stranger things, you know, and things that weren't normal or, you know. [07:12] Mr. Roper on Three's Company or whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. [07:18] And this show, they had a show that came on at two in the morning, and it was from Los Angeles called New Wave Theater. And that was like huge, huge. [07:26] Being a kid in the suburbs in Georgia where it's still pretty much like that band, all the people listening to that band, Alabama, they wear trucker hats and flannels and want to beat you up because you have a Ramones record or something. [07:43] That's how it was. Wow. So this show was like a real beacon of... [07:48] You know, my mom was like, oh, yeah, Peter Ivers. [07:52] A very interesting...

[07:56] character... [07:57] Peter Ivers. [08:00] wealth of material they've serviced in many incarnations tonight they're here as 45 grave piece of wax 45 yeah so this is what i'm really into don bowls is the drummer in 45 grave who was in the germs [08:17] Not a happy childhood amongst them. [08:22] Well, I don't know, but they definitely made amazing, beautiful, cool outsider art. And, you know, I think... [08:32] Something that we have a hard time understanding in this day and age is art that's made because of the visceral interaction with you and other people that has nothing to do with, I'm going to be a big star. Right, right, right. Some of the things I think, I mean, fuck, I'm like one of the last, I mean, the Black Crows, we have to be one of the last... [08:53] So [08:54] Bands of the time... [08:56] where we kind of felt it was our duty to never truly give in to the other side, you know what I mean? And kind of understand this us versus them thing. [09:09] idea, you know what I mean? Or vibe is something that's inspiring and something that is like, you know, I was always interested in counterculture, you know, and... [09:20] Anyone, again, that's like why the algorithm maybe isn't as perfect or it never will overtake everything because there's always going to be the one person who's like, I'm going this way.

[09:30] That's not enough for me, you know, the deep dive people. And so we kind of found ourselves in the crosshairs of... [09:38] This kind of stuff. The Cramps. We were in The Cramps. The Gun Club. And then R.E.M. comes around, their first record, Chronic Town. And so my dad and my mom and dad had a lot of records, maybe 250 records, 300 records, you know, which was a lot of records back then. Bluegrass records, you know, Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs records or Moe's Allison records, Jimmy Reed records, Johnny Guitar Watson. And then they had... [10:06] Buffalo Springfield records. [10:10] Bob Dylan records. I mean, that's a big... I mean, for millions of people, but something as a kid... [10:18] that [10:19] I knew no other kids would go. You guys want to come over and listen to records? I'm going to put on the times they are changing. I mean, like, again, that would be a reason to get beat up. [10:30] But that kind of stuff catapults us into – then punk rock comes along and it's like, oh, anyone can do this. You don't have to be – we'll figure it out later what talent or whatever. You know what I mean? Like we just want to plug in and start going and singing horrible things and trying to be offensive. [10:50] You know what I mean? Because think about, now you go to the, you know, now people walk around in Dead Kennedys t-shirts and it's like, oh, cool. But back then, Dead Kennedys made people, like the name of that band, the Circle Jerks, like the names of these bands made people upset. Right.

[11:06] Legitimate rebellion instead of posturing, which is a lot of what's going on today with Dead Kennedys T-shirts. [11:18] And Edgar Allan Poe was that in a literary way in the tail end of the Victorian age. But now he's just like a thing hanging in some goth kid's car like an air freshener or something. You know what I mean? Yeah. So things get swallowed up culturally. Right. And regurgitated as just – and it just so happens that Dead Kennedys have one of the greatest logos of all time. Yeah. [11:48] popular and then people that are trying to mimic what's popular so that they can become popular. And then there's always legitimate counterculture where people are just like, I don't vibe with any of this. Yeah, I'm looking for something else. Yeah, I'm looking for something that's real, something that's raw. And as I think that's going to accelerate with AI music and, you know, all this electronic music. And again, as you were saying before, stuff that's sort of created [12:15] to feed the algorithm. Yeah. You know, there's, there's strategies to become successful rather than just expression that resonates with people. Let the people, yeah, yeah. In a way, I mean, yeah, [12:27] Someone took a chance, you know, a band like Alan Vega and, you know, like Suicide, like someone, you know, the no wave music in New York in the late 70s. Someone took a chance and said, yeah, I would think about how weird was that? You know, like bringing that into a studio where who was just in here? Fucking 38 special or some shit. You know what I mean? And then there's like this or whatever. You know what I mean? I mean.

[12:51] It's a cool thing about early... The first Sex Pistols record, the Clash record's a little different, but even the Dead Boys or bands like that, a lot of those early punk records and a lot of the... [13:02] Mm-mm. [13:04] post-punk records, [13:06] Those bands, they're not making records trying to sound, you know, oh, I can make a record sound like I Don't Give a Fuck or something on my GarageBand. You know, you can do anything now with like a button and... [13:19] And I like lo-fi shit, too, of course. But back then, these bands, they're not making lo-fi records. They're in just... Like, that's a real band, but with... [13:30] Great gear. And people who are making records that we would think are sonically like, oh, that's correct. Right. And then you have these punk people in there just like, you can't turn it up all the way. Well, we're doing that. You know what I mean? Wasn't this sort of rebellion out... You guys had like a falling out with ZZ Top, right, when you were on tour? Wasn't part of it something about corporate involvement? Yeah, we were always... [13:54] And it's funny, I just saw Billy Gibbons a couple weeks ago in London, and we've been friends for many years, and a massive ZZ Top fan. I mean, those records, especially the early records, I mean, they just sound delicious. You know what I mean? And, which one is it? Is it Rio Grande? I don't know. One of those records where you open it and there's like a giant plate of Mexican food. Like, growing up in Atlanta, that was, I didn't know what that, you know what I mean? Like, you could get that.

[14:24] We had barbecue and we had soul food. We have our own regional... [14:30] culinary identity, but to see stuff like that, I was like, wow, I gotta try that. You know what I mean? Um, but no, we, [14:38] that [14:39] I don't even know if ZZ Top, where they were in their career, if they knew anything that was going on about, like... [14:46] these guys that were the opening band, except for the fact that, [14:50] In the music business at that time, when you're still selling records, and you're selling 250,000 records every week or whatever for a couple of years, it starts to be kooky when it was a thing. But they were sponsored by Miller Lite. [15:05] Thank you. [15:05] And... [15:07] I just got into this thing. So we'd go on stage and do our thing, and there's big Miller Lite posters. [15:15] all over the state or whatever, you know. And I got in my little troublemaker mind, we're the Black Crows, you know what I mean? No one gives us money. We don't drink this beer. No one gives us fucking money. [15:31] I'm standing under this sign because I have to be here tonight, but I want you to know that no fucking beer company sponsors our music. No one owns us. You know what I mean? I have this. [15:42] these naive sort of thing about, I don't know. And we, my brother and I talk about it a lot. And as we've gotten older, and especially since we put the band back together these last few years and have been in a really...

[15:57] positive place and a really good [16:00] place, I realize like [16:03] So [16:04] you know, part of our... [16:06] Part of that that we were involved in, we believed in like as if rock, the S, what we feel is really the true essence of rock and roll. [16:15] It's like I describe it as like the movie quest for fire, you know, when they have to keep the fire burning in that little thing and they're going across the swamp and they don't want the Neanderthals to get it or whatever. Yeah. [16:28] That's kind of how we felt in a weird way about everything that was out. You know, one minute you're in control. Your kids... [16:36] We're writing songs. We're in control of that. I'm in control of like, this is what we're doing. This is how we look. This is what we are. [16:45] You're in a grown-up world and you've made people... [16:49] Tens of millions of dollars. [16:51] And... [16:53] I'm hardly a savvy business person. I never could be. I never would be. It wasn't in the cards for me. [17:02] And so part of our, like, being hard about it or being difficult. [17:09] uh, [17:10] not being compliant with, [17:13] was trying to, in our minds, keep this pure thing. You know what I mean? And in a way, that still is... [17:20] Part of what we are today. How old were you guys back then? [17:23] Oh, in the summer of '89, Rich was 18, I was 23 when we made our first record. Wow. Yeah.

[17:32] Just a young rebel. [17:36] Well, you know, the other thing is, you know, you remember rock and roll was culturally and socially its place and its importance and its reverence was a lot different than today. Yeah. Yeah. [17:49] One thing I think is cool about hip-hop music is the hip-hop stars have taken over the [17:56] that [17:57] kind of attitude. Yes. Yes. [17:59] Um... [18:02] Which I, when I see their fashion and I see, you know, I mean, there's lots of, hip hop's not one thing, of course. Right. And I'm 57. I like what I like. You know, I like old records anyway. But when I hear new things that I like... [18:15] And I'm like, okay, so they're singing about drugs, they're singing about sex, and they're singing about... [18:21] you know, [18:22] Maybe I can't really identify with the violence of poverty and stuff. You know what I mean? The extreme nature of some of it. But... [18:34] But that's another form of rebellion as well. Yeah, and hip-hop itself is an interesting art form because there's not a push to popify it. [18:46] You know, like the hardcore hip-hop artists are very successful. Yeah. The lyrics are rough. Yeah. You know, they're very hard-edged lyrics, but yet these are the lyrics that, you know, get millions and millions of views. You can't even say millions of sold albums anymore because it's like – that had to be the weirdest thing, to watch the sale of albums evaporate. Not just the sale. You're absolutely correct. Not just the sale, but the –

[19:13] the meaning of a record. Again, in the big scheme of things, the record business isn't as old as, say, the writing or whatever. [19:24] but in the way that we would listen to music and you would, you know, there's a company that would find talent and put that whole thing, but yeah, making a record and saying, okay, I, [19:34] We're songwriters. [19:36] Thank you. [19:36] This is what we're this is our this is our latest work. This is what we've been working on. This is our craft and this is our talent and our poetry and our this is what we want to say. Now it's like, you know, an album, you know what I mean? Like, I personally think that it's still an important medium and I I've yet to. [19:59] give up on it [20:01] You know what I mean? [20:03] If they said, you know what I mean? That's what Rich and I have always done. We write songs. It was one of the only things... [20:12] Again, the way we could experience the world was through that. Because he's, you know, as crazy as me, just doesn't talk as much. Not crazy, but, I mean, different, you know. [20:28] artists, you know, I think it resonates with a lot of people, which is why there's this resurgence of vinyl, right? Like people still want to listen to actual vinyl. They still want to see an actual album, you know, agreed. And there's there's a lot of like looking at that. There's a lot of reminiscing from people that are like my age and your age that were around when these things were the way you consume music. You I've been buying records as I was 12 years old. You know what I mean? Like and it was weird. Maybe that's because my mom and dad had a lot of records.

[20:58] But my wife and I, we just moved just around the block in LA. [21:05] and [21:06] We've been together seven years, but we kept our records separate. I don't know. We have thousands and thousands. I just put 4,000 records... [21:16] in storage because we don't have space for them. Wow. [21:21] But I'm like, but it's funny because... [21:25] No matter what, I see a record store, I'm going in. And I can... [21:30] however many years of buying records, I know [21:33] what I'm looking for. And I don't buy records online very much. I still like to... How come? I don't know. I like to... I'm like a kid when I... If I've been looking for something and I see it, I'm like, I get a shot of like endorphins. I'm like, you know what I mean? I'm looking around like, I don't want anybody to, you know? Yeah. It's weird. It's geeky stuff. It's nerd stuff. But... [21:56] But the record store was really important to me as a young... [22:00] person and a musician because before you could go on your phone or before the algorithm, whatever, like, [22:07] There's another person that looks cool. I... [22:10] Oh, you know what I mean? Like, they have... [22:13] Chelsea boots on or like a cool band t-shirt. [22:17] In the suburbs back in the 80s, it wasn't like, you know what I mean? If you saw someone, you took the chance to be like, we need to go to their house and look through their records. You know what I mean? [22:27] And...

[22:29] Thank you. [22:29] It's funny that it's still that way. You know what I mean? I have so many friends in my life, and we're friends because of records. You know what I mean? And it's like my wife and I DJ all the time in L.A., and we go to New York, and we carry our records around. You DJ? Yeah. My wife's name is Camille. [22:47] So we have the best DJ name ever. [22:49] The Captain and Camille. [22:53] We do, yeah, concerts and bars and parties and gigs and stuff. Really? Yeah. When did you start doing that? DJing. I started like, well... [23:05] Back in the 80s, everyone used to take a turn playing records at the pizza place. They had two turntables called Fellini's in Atlanta, where all the... [23:14] as my dad referred to them, dirtbags and low lives hung out. Everyone in a band, of course. [23:20] But then in the early 2000s, a friend of mine that worked at the great record store Other Music in New York, my friend Michael. [23:32] We started doing these nights and playing like a lot of weird psych folk as a kind of genre. And we both loved those records. And we called that, we called Gurus Galore. [23:44] Yeah, and just... [23:46] When I wasn't doing the Black Crows, I had this band called the CRB. We were like a little... [23:51] psychedelic folk rock... [23:54] little group that toured around and made a bunch of records. [23:59] But we played two sets a night, so it was kind of like Grateful Dead model, like very heady, trippy. But the CRB, especially in California, we always had friends DJ. The doors opened until after the show and in between sets, playing records.

[24:18] I don't know, she's something we've always done, and my wife used to DJ before I met her and stuff, so... [24:24] So it's just something you enjoy. By the way, if I could make money doing it, I would never do it. If me and Camille could just play records, I would be the happiest person in the world. You would stop performing? No, I'm kidding. I love singing. I love performing. I love being in a band. You know what I mean? [24:42] I love... [24:45] It's changed a lot, like anything else, and travel and everything, but... [24:49] I personally, it's yet to beat the adventure out of me. You know what I mean? You never know. Same thing about why I could go online and buy whatever book or record I want right now. Anything, almost anything you can imagine. [25:04] is available. [25:05] It's available, but I know when I'm in Denver, I'm going to this certain bookstore, and I know that they have really – [25:15] curated things in there that I'm looking for. I can wander into, you know, you never know who you're going to meet. You never know what you're going to eat, who, you know what I mean? The laughs and the, you know, it's still a lot of, [25:28] stuff out there for someone like me, a lot of stimuli. Real experiences. Yeah, that are good and human. [25:35] Yeah, human experiences. [25:38] Yeah. I mean, that is what live music and live performance is all about, right? I mean, music is great. Live music is something really special. I tell you, the pandemic was weird for the world.

[25:50] And... [25:51] It was, you know, for artists and musicians, we had, you know, no one's, no government bailout for the guy who, you know, is playing guitar or whatever. Right. [26:01] But as hard as it was, one of the worst parts of it to me was not – [26:07] Not just being able to do what we do, but not going to see bands. You know what I mean? I have a label called Silver Arrow, and we've been doing this for a few years. The Black Crows records come out on Silver Arrow. It's a little different, but... [26:21] I'm always... [26:24] going to see bands. You know what I mean? We go, whether it's the Rolling Stones or whether we go see a band at a little club in LA, um, [26:33] And I'm always looking for new things to people that are interesting. If I could help them out in their careers, a lot of it is with really young artists. I want to put them in the studio. I want to give them good experience. I want to give them a great record deal because it's changed, the model. [26:51] But to do that, you have to go out and get in it. You know what I mean? We always laugh. I'm like, is there anyone older here tonight than me? You're like, oh, there's one. You know what I mean? [27:01] It's a freaky dude who still goes to see bands. Well, people don't want to let it go, and why should they? I mean, in L.A. right now is a great time. I mean, there's a lot of good music going on in L.A., and there's a lot of bars where, you know, we know if someone plays great records, we'll go listen to them play records. You know what I mean? There's a lot of good record people, bands. There's a lot of cool – L.A. is very alive right now. No kidding. Like, what parts of L.A. are this happening?

[27:31] and like to the east. Downtown. [27:33] I mean, yeah, you have to survive getting into the place. Downtown is so fucked up. I know. But that's probably something that adds to the feeling of it. You know what it does? And it's funny because I had a nostalgic moment when we started talking about, look, man, don't get me wrong. My parents did the best they could. They're just fucking people too. But part of the other part of adventure and the other part of being interesting in like new wave theater, my mom was like, they all look like mental patients, just like you. [28:03] I'm like, great. But was... [28:07] To go to downtown Atlanta in the 80s was dangerous too. [28:11] during the crack epidemic. [28:15] It was a violent place. And we were, you know, obviously we were white kids from the suburbs traversing like this urban place to get into these little underground clubs to see these bands. [28:28] That added to it. You know what I mean? To the experience, yeah. And just the aesthetic. You know what I mean? I still am an obsessive, influenced by the beat writers and beat culture. [28:41] And so for me, like... [28:43] Jack Kerouac isn't writing about the suburbs. He's writing about the, you know, Mexico City or whatever. You know what I mean? Gregory Corso or Allen Ginsberg, all these poets and people are writing about all these experiences that don't seem to be happening in a neighborhood where they call the houses a five, four and a door.

[29:08] angst is cultivated yeah you know that only the only thing that could satisfy that would be something that i felt was gritty and real well there's a there's something about if you can i mean i haven't been to downtown la to see music in quite a while but the last time i went there i saw gary clark jr and honey honey at this uh very small place with uh you know maybe there was like 200 people in there i took my daughter and it was like a late show on a monday night [29:38] and here we're seeing Gary Clark Jr. in Honey Honey play a cover of Midnight Rider. And it just felt so special because there was no one there. And you survived. And you survived. And you get out. You're like, let's get out of here. Where's the car? Let's walk out of here. But you know what's weird about that? And I get it. But I spend a lot of my time reading. I read a lot of varied materials. And one thing that comes up is humans are dangerous. [30:08] And places where there's a shit ton of them are usually pretty gross and dangerous. Yeah. It's just a numbers thing, right? It's a totally numbers thing. [30:18] It's other things, ills as well, that are hard for us to deal with. And look, if we're lucky enough to be walking upright and somehow mentally stable or whatever, right? [30:33] But, but you're, but... [30:37] I

[30:38] I think cities have always been dangerous places. They certainly have. Ancient Rome was a dangerous place. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, it was so wild. We were just in Sicily, and we went to Palermo for the day. And it was wild. Have you ever been to Palermo? Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. That city is like an electric wire that's got sparks shooting out of it, and you can't get a hold of it. That's where my grandfather's from. [31:02] Yeah. From Palermo. Yeah. When we went to Italy, one of the most interesting things. By the way, is this water? Yes, yes. [31:09] And this coffee and this if you want. Cheers. [31:12] One of the most interesting things is just Italy in general is like – [31:17] Every time I go there, I'm like, maybe I should live like this. They fucking know how to relax. These people know how to relax. [31:25] Like with the way they sit down and eat. No one sits down and eat for 40 minutes. You sit down and eat for two hours. French people have it dialed in pretty good. They do. They do. And they have pastis, which is, you know. What is pastis? Pastis is an aperitif from the south of France. You ever see it says Ricard, Marseille. Marseille is famous for pastis. All Mediterranean cultures have an anisette-based drink. Italians have Zambuca. [31:55] There's a rotten Lebanese people, and there's all sorts of them. [32:00] In the south of France, they drink one that's a little more sophisticated and a lot more herbs and things in it. And they say you always know in France someone from Marseille because they always have a pastis in their hands. It's a high alcohol level, a lot of sugar, but it's delicious. You put it in ice and dilute it with water, and it makes it all this kind of milky color. It's delicious.

[32:24] Genius. Well, it's just... [32:26] you only have a certain amount of time on this planet. [32:30] And they've chosen to live their time in a more relaxed manner, more community-based, more [32:37] Just people like to sit around and talk. Do you think that any of that has to do with embracing a certain middle classness or... [32:47] Or even lower middle – you know what I mean? Right. Like the working – you know what I mean? Even in a blue-collar way, I think. You know what I'm saying? Whereas here it seems that's been stripped away from something to be proud of unless it's kind of in a way distortedly proud. You know? Yes. Distortion of what that could be. Right. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Well, in here it's supposed to be your main goal is to get to be the type of person that can look down upon that. Yeah. Yeah. Tell it. Yeah. [33:17] in that and just [33:19] accept it that this is life that life is you have money for food you have money for your house like you you're not well if you look at like okay media like sitcoms from the 70s whether it's archie bunker or whatever like they're just people with jobs and even taxi or barney miller or whatever you know what i mean and now it's like then it turns into full house where somehow all these people and these kids live in this amazing house and everyone has clean clothes you know i [33:49] There's no struggle. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And no... [33:52] It's not just recognition. I think it's

[33:55] And it's not celebratory. It's just like, look, man, this doesn't make the man, right? My material things don't make me who I am. It's who I am, how I feel, what I... [34:07] You know, what I've learned. That's a big problem with what we're sold in Western culture, that the goal is to acquire things and to achieve a certain financial status. And then you'll have made it. I get it. Pastis doesn't grow on trees. You know what I mean? I got to pay for that shit. But it's not that expensive. You know what I mean? It's not. It's just there's a distortion of goals. You know what's fucked up about that, though? Like when we were kids and I get it. Like I said, I made the choice in my life. Mom and dad, we weren't. [34:35] You know, they were middle class people. But I made the choice. [34:42] When I said I'm not going to university, I'm going to be in a band. That was the last dollar I ever saw. [34:51] You know what I mean? And... [34:54] But I made that choice. That choice wasn't made for me. Right. [34:58] You know what I mean? And within two years, I'm on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and we're fucking around. You know what I mean? Like selling millions of records. I get that. You know what I mean? It's not lost on me, but. [35:11] It gets back to where we started talking about... [35:13] There will always be a part of me... [35:17] uh... [35:19] that is making music because it's really maybe the only place where I'm truly free. You know what I mean? I have the freedom. You know, it's funny. I tell this story. We were on Saturday Night Live two times. The second time was on our second album, Southern Harmony. And we went on the show.

[35:38] It was the number one album in America. It debuted at number one. [35:43] Our new single was a song called Sometimes Salvation. [35:47] We were going to play that. And we were going to play one of our big hit records. And at the time, it was called Remedy. [35:54] And we had just written this song called Nonfiction. And I was like, let's play Nonfiction. And it's funny because it's different. My brother and I are rich. We were like, yeah, fuck it. You know what I mean? It's a cool song. The guy, whoever was the music guy, he was like, you can't do that. And I was like... [36:10] Well, I mean, we can do what we want, I think. [36:16] He was mad because we were smoking weed in the dressing room. I'm like, didn't John Belushi OD in the bathroom? I'm like, what do you fucking care? Call the cops. I told him, call the cops. We get arrested and Saturday Night Live for smoking weed will be bigger than this. But the guy, now that I'm older, I realize I'm just totally being... [36:34] just horrible kid. But he goes, you're making a big mistake not playing this single. And I said, okay, well here's the deal. You're on this show next week with some other fucking band. And then the next week after that, [36:46] And then the next week after that, this is my band. So let me make the mistake. I'm not going to let you tell us what to do. And if it's a mistake, then we'll fucking eat it, won't we? [36:58] And [36:59] I'm still here. And where is he? Well, it's funny. Someone told me he has a – I forget his name. I ran into him once before. He did not like our attitude. He was on a podcast about Saturday Night Live or something.

[37:13] And said we were the worst... [37:15] people he ever dealt with in his entire career there. And I was like, [37:18] Well, thank you. That's funny. The worst how, because you just didn't listen to him. Yeah, yeah, we didn't do what he wanted. That's not what you're supposed to do with artists. Especially when you're young and you're still like, the fire is so intense. That's always the problem with executive mindsets versus artistic mindsets, right? A producer character who just wants everything to go according to this very specific plan they have laid out. And you're trying to take an artist. And first of all, just trying to take an artist and making them sing one song. [37:48] is kind of crazy. Right? Yeah. I mean, there's... I mean, I think we see that now. Yeah. You know, we see people are like, I'll do it, I'll do it. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's someone who's ready to jump up and do anything. And I think that's been a part of showbiz. But that's kind of what we were saying before. I think the talent show thing, you know, the vote for me. Right. Yeah. [38:09] You know what? No one was voting for us. Right. We were unvotable. And that was part of the reason that we were drawn to these characters and these people and these other outsiders and these other whatever kind of – [38:23] uh [38:24] spectrum we're on or whatever that's different that we were like – [38:30] You know, music to us represented everything anti-vote for me. But did it feel weird to transcend that and become mainstream massive? Yes. It's still weird sometimes. What is the juxtaposition? It has to be so strange. You're these rebels, and then all of a sudden you're the number one fucking band in the world. And then, yeah, and it's...

[38:53] It was tough. [38:54] It was maybe tougher for me because I was more boots on the ground in the scene with people. And now it's like, especially in the 80s in Atlanta, it was like... [39:09] fuck major, anyone who signs with a major label, man, fuck them. You know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, you know, like power to the people or whatever, you know? And then it's like you're on MTV 30 times a day in between fucking Toyota commercials and Snapple or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, [39:25] So, [39:26] And it's weird because our politics are so in line with so many of the alternative politics of music. [39:37] Yeah. [39:37] that would grunge or whatever. So I'm the same age as all of the grunge bands... [39:44] But I don't exist in the 90s in the same way. We weren't, you know what I mean? Because we were doing something. But it is funny, like, you know, people say, well, no fucking label is signing Kurt Cobain today. [39:58] Thank you. [39:58] As a matter of fact, Kurt and our generation of people, we were talking about compliance and defiance. [40:05] You're making a mistake. Fuck it. It's my mistake to make. It's my band. It's my art. And people, we met and my kind of generation. It's not about being old. Now I think there's so much compliance. Okay. I don't want to cause any trouble at the record label. We're all distorted right now with social media and all the different avenues for people to get attention and to get famous. It's so easy. I shouldn't say it's easy because it's rare but common.

[40:35] It's more highlighted which way you can go to achieve success. But do you remember that famous time where Kurt Cobain and Nirvana were playing and they were forcing them to lip sync? Yeah, yeah. [40:47] And so what occurred dude, he start reading out of a book or something like that. Like he did a bunch of wild things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, [40:55] See if you can find that, Jamie, because it's kind of hilarious. Yeah, I know. Nobody did that at the time. And they were telling them, no, no, no, you can't play live. [41:04] yeah here it is perfect set to perform the recent single smells like teen spirit the british music chart television program top of the pops time to show the policy requiring artists to sing live vocals over pre-recorded backtracks as you would expect kirk hoban and his bandmates would not let this go without having some fun so they started fucking around in the middle of the song [41:23] The result was, and still one of the greatest middle fingers to live performances ever, the band literally made its own shred video. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, because you got to sing the live vocal over the track. Yeah, so you started fucking around and coming up with new lives. That's great. [41:38] yeah [41:39] I mean, we loved The Replacements. [41:45] being on Saturday Night Live was a disaster. But we thought, that's our band. You know what I mean? I remember every fucking person that we knew in Atlanta... [41:53] that Saturday night that the replacements came on and made in TV on Saturday live. We all were at parties and watching it and getting completely shit faced, watching. They like shave their eyebrows off and shit and we're rolling around and change clothes. And people were like, Oh dear. We were like, yeah, cheering it on. Like, that's how you,

[42:15] That's it. Isn't that part of one of the goals? Is to be that big of a pain in the ass to the... [42:21] And who are you being a pain in the ass to? Some authority. Right. Something that says you can't do that or this is the way it goes. And that changes, you know. But I think as a youth... [42:34] That's definitely something I'm not feeling with a lot of bands. I mean, I think it's there in the punk scene and stuff like that, but they're not getting access to them. Green Day is still that way, I feel. The carrot is still dangled right in front of everybody's faces so close now, especially with people that make it independently through YouTube and TikTok and all these different venues. There's just so many different ways that someone could become massively successful now. [43:04] Thank you. [43:04] The time traveler. I am from the last century. I get it. I think a guy smashing his nuts on a rail on a skateboard is as funny as anyone, but I've seen it. You know what I mean? It's not like Steve Coogan or something. You know what I mean? [43:34] I just don't – I will never – [43:37] I guess it's just me as well. The cinema that I enjoy, the books I read, the records that I listen to, there is all of them. If there's one thing in common, there's a level of craft. There's a difference between having a fine meal at a very nice restaurant versus eating garbage. Yeah.

[43:56] eating tasty garbage. And TikTok is tasty garbage. You're right. I've never thought about it like that. It's bad for you. [44:04] And you can't put it down. You keep going to it, and you over-consume it. And at least when it's just visual, you don't get a big stain on your shirt. I think you get a stain on your brain. Yeah, I really do. I do. I think so much of what's going on today, even if I just waste 10 minutes scrolling through TikTok, when it's over, I just feel confused. I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I fucking paying attention to this shit? [44:34] did any of that. You don't have Facebook, Twitter, nothing? [44:36] No. I mean, the band has one, I guess. That's perfect. But I don't, personally. Good. I never tweeted or any of those things. Good for you. And it's funny, my phone, I'm still this way. [44:50] My best friends, the three or four people in the world that I'm super, super the closest people, we talk on the phone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love talking on the phone. For hours. You know what I mean? About whatever. Yeah. [45:04] So it's... [45:06] I get it, but I don't... I'm one of those older people. Well, you developed in a different time, and this time is... [45:13] fucking bizarre. [45:15] I can't imagine spending your life... [45:18] grown-ass people spending all of their time playing video games. That's a real thing. Well, at least that's exciting. It is? Yeah, video games. Why does it give you a shock? No, some video games are so immersive, man. You have 3D sound and incredible graphics. Running through corridors and people are chasing you. It's very exciting. It hits all of your dopamine receptors and fires you up. I mean, video games are pretty fucking amazing now.

[45:48] is... [45:50] It's not designed for human beings. It's designed to capture human beings, capture your attention. It's not like if you're spending your time going from a coffee shop to a restaurant to a bookstore to a record store to a live concert. Museum to an art gallery. These are human experiences. These are human experiences. [46:10] But if you're spending your time arguing with people on Twitter all day, like, nothing is more depressing to me than seeing old rock stars argue about politics on Twitter. It is so goddamn depressing watching rock stars virtue signal and attacking people personally for having differing political beliefs. And then looking at their timeline and realizing these poor fucks are addicted to this shit and they're doing this five, six hours every day. Get off my line! Yeah, it's get off my line. [46:40] get off my lawn it's fucking rock stars [46:44] It's like, good Lord, man. Do you have friends? Like, get out. Get out of the house. Stop doing this. We just, you know, it's funny. We were gone for three months. We did the States on this. [46:56] Latest tour, we played a lot of new songs from our latest record. It was amazing. And then we finished in Europe. [47:02] And my wife and I stayed in Sicily and went back to London at the inn. [47:08] And [47:10] I've been doing it for 35 years of that, you know, 1990, first time I go to Europe. And it's still like, I don't care.

[47:19] 35 years, it's a lot of shows. I don't care if I wake up and I'm tired. And we have friends all over the place. [47:25] which is a beautiful thing. Friends in Amsterdam, friends in Paris, friends in London, friends in Madrid, friends in this, you know, Germany, whatever. But we're [47:32] Uh, [47:33] We're constantly out doing things. You know what I mean? There's no way we're not heading the town in any town and finding what it has that makes maybe it unique or special, whether that's tastes or touch or whatever. I mean, it sounds silly, but like I said before, there's still adventure in the world. And I'm not talking about... [47:53] jumping out of an airplane adventure or, you know, that just stimuli. I think it's cognitive nutrition. [48:03] I think it's actually good for you to experience different cultures and see how people hang out and see their restaurants and see, you know. And you see everyone's doing the same shit. You know, they're just styling it a little different. Doing it in a different way. But it flavors your understanding of human beings. That's why my very, very special place, the thing that I love almost more than any other thing, is Jamaica. Really? I was lucky enough to have a dear friend introduce me to... [48:32] Jamaica 30 years ago. [48:35] And I have friends there and... [48:39] I have a whole life there that has nothing to do with anything other than... [48:45] jamaica shit and i go to the country and like we like have like a country kind of life there you know by the ocean and no resorts you know the food there is amazing amazing food in jamaica jamaican food is so delicious

[49:01] And you have to get out there and eat it and they have like anything else, you know, the fruits there, the vegetables there, the seafood and... [49:09] And, you know, they say in Jamaica that a goat in Jamaica only has one bad day, man. Yeah. It's not even a whole bad day. It's just a quick moment. One bad moment, and that's a wrap. One bad moment, and the rest we're all happy with. Yeah, and then the rest, everyone's eating it. [49:27] Thank you. [49:28] Yeah, that's one of the things I loved about Anthony Bourdain's show, that he would go and really immerse himself in these cultures and eat their food and hang out with their chefs and hang out with the people and get toured. Someone would take him on a tour around the town. You know what happened to – sometimes he would be tired. [49:44] and hungover. Oh, yeah. Most of the time. Yeah. But again, you know, I have people... I mean, I get it, man. Everyone has a tough thing, but it's like, oh, dear, I don't know. You know, I better get this. I'm like, okay. If you enjoy what you're doing, being tired is not that bad. No. If you enjoy what you're doing, it's like, so what? Just get up, have a coffee, let's go. And I bullshit you not. If for some reason... [50:09] I had to get a quick 20, 25 in. I could curl up right there and do it, and you wouldn't even know I was here. I believe you. Like expert. That's 35 years of being on the road. Knowing how to power nap. I got to go down, or I'm going to be in an intersection, waving a gun around with my pants down by my ankles or something. I've learned how to sleep instantly on planes. I get on a plane, and almost always I'm out cold. Me too. I annoy every single person I'm traveling with. Yeah.

[50:39] She's like, what? How'd you fall asleep that quick? Even with my Jamaican dog in my life. We brought it when my wife and I were married in Jamaica. And... [50:48] We have a little street dog that we brought back. Oh, that's cool. Bami Longface, yeah. Oh, wow. Bami, she's 35 pounds, but I can even sleep with my Jamaican street dog on my lap. Ah, that's cool. [51:00] So Jamaica's your spot, huh? [51:02] And they just got hit very hard with this hurricane. My friends are okay and stuff. Everyone's really shooken up over it in Jamaica. It's scary shit, man. They haven't had something like that since 2007, and this was worse. I saw live footage of it, some live cell phone footage of it. Unless you've experienced that live, when you're around the sky, and the sky becomes an angry monster, and everywhere around you is dangerous, and the winds are 120 miles an hour, [51:32] It's so humbling. I've never... I mean, I was in a tornado in Atlanta in the early 70s, and that was... [51:39] I mean, I was probably too young to be traumatized, but I remember feeling my parents... [51:47] trauma about this thing going over our house or whatever. Oh, it's fucking terrifying shit, man. [51:52] When it was over, though, when you're a kid, it was amazing. The whole world was one big pine sap jungle gym. I mean, for weeks, we were just... Because you're just climbing in all the fallen trees. My dad had some old Pontiac... [52:05] And that thing was like a U in the car. Some giant pine tree smashed that thing. So it was like a surrealist thing, too, as a kid. You know, like, wow, everything's been shaken up. Yeah, it's also a lesson in the temporary nature of things. You can look out and think, this is my lawn. This is where the cars park. This is how things are. And then all of a sudden, the sky's like, not today, bitch. Let's throw a tree through your fucking house. What was that commercial in the 70s that Mother Earth gets angry or whatever?

[52:35] but it was like there was their catchphrase and it would be like oh yeah I remember that it might be shampoo or something something stupid like that but it's true [52:51] I have to do it. I mean, shit, fuck. Katrina is still something like, you know, I love New Orleans. New Orleans is one of the most special cities in the world, and [53:02] It's still amazing. It's still... [53:04] vibrant, dynamic, alive, beautiful. [53:08] But I think the scars of that place are still there. I mean, that was... Devastating. Brutal. Yeah, unbelievably brutal. I mean, when hurricanes hit places and devastate them, it takes decades for them to recover, especially without aid. And then sometimes it's like the people that are there, they just don't want to do it anymore. It's like when you realize you're in a place that this happens and there's other places where this doesn't happen, you just get the fuck out. You know? But there's a humbling of being attached to nature in that way that I think... [53:38] and [53:39] There's something to the people that live up there that understand that every winter it's going to get so cold you could die outside. Right. That's a reality that no one in L.A. experiences. Because in L.A., it's like – Earthquakes, fire, floods, zombie apocalypse. I get it. You get a little bit of that, but you can kind of get away from that. [53:59] It's not going to overcome your entire city. You can build a very high fence and have the state-of-the-art security system. The fires are wild.

[54:06] I was evacuated three times living in L.A. [54:09] We were in the valley. Yeah, yeah. Three separate times. The last time, the two houses across the street from my house burned to the ground. [54:16] it was wild. It's just wild going through your old neighborhood and seeing just house after house. Like there's 40 houses in our neighborhood that were, [54:23] burnt to the ground. We were in Marin County, Northern California, out in a place called Lagunitas. This is four or five summers ago. We just... [54:34] Kept shit in the car. Guitars. You know, there's one guitar I just can't live without. Some pictures. Just in case. We just kept both our cars filled because you're out, you know, just ashes falling in the yard every day. [54:46] Scary. Well, it's when it goes bad. It goes real bad. I was filming fear factor once in the [54:54] It was about an hour and a half away from L.A. And the fires get so bad, we had to stop shooting and drive home. And on the way home, we were off the 5 freeway. And on the way home, the entire right side of the highway for an hour was in flames. [55:12] Like completely in flames like a Lord of the Rings movie. Like you're waiting for demons to ride horses over the top of the mountains. [55:20] It was it's there's something about those those kind of scenes. It's like it puts you back in check. That's like, hey, man, like maybe the things you're concentrating on aren't all that important for real. I think it also touches us in a way.

[55:36] In our animalistic DNA of still being that person, these people. Again, it's a quest for fire. Being these people who are really... [55:48] Not just completely immersed in their environment as well for survival and sustenance and everything. Yeah. That it's still like in the way, I guess, you know, there's an instinctive thing. [56:01] in those moments that has to be the exact same chemical reaction in every human being. [56:07] And he... [56:09] I'm not. [56:09] expansive time that we've been like this. Yeah. Yeah. When we were in Sicily, we were at one... I guess there was an eruption there recently. There's one today or last night. Yeah. Mount Edna. [56:20] That's right. I was seeing it on the news. But when we were there, we were – [56:25] near this one island that had a constant eruption. And at nighttime, you could see the red at the top of the mountain, just a little bit of red bubbling up off the top of the mountain. It was so fucking cool. I've never really got close to something like that. [56:40] Have you ever done a tour in Hawaii where you fly over in a helicopter? No. Hawaii is wild. The Big Island is wild because it's growing every year because the lava is constantly flowing into the ocean. You can literally watch the island expand in real time. That's wild. And you fly over it in helicopters. So you're flying over. You're looking down at the lava pouring out of the earth. Is this Italy? Italy. [57:03] Mount Etna. Look at that. Isn't that wild, man?

[57:07] That's incredible. Not to be confused with regular Italy. [57:12] Yeah, Sicilians think of themselves very differently. [57:15] Look how beautiful that is, man. God, that's so fucking cool. [57:19] We visited Pompeii, too. I did that as a kid. That's crazy. It's still one of the coolest. But I was like, you know, it's funny when I look back. [57:29] You know, they have, like, up the streets... [57:32] They'll have like the fountain at the end of the street or whatever the water would come. And you could see like where people lean their hand. There's like an indention for the centuries of people leaning in to get a sip of water. I just put my hand on that as a kid. Just like I almost couldn't stop like thinking about that. I do that all the time. I do, you know, I do that with my kids when I'm like fucking around. I'm like, shake the hand. [57:56] I shook Chuck Berry's hand. Bo Diddley's hand. [58:00] I shook Little Richard's hand [58:03] John Lee Hooker. They're all laughing. You met John Lee Hooker? I did one time. Wow. [58:09] That's a guy I'd love to meet. It was. His handshake was, like, amazing. It was just like a... [58:15] He touched my hand. It was just like a cloud. It was the softest pillow. I was like, wow. Wow. [58:23] And it was early, you know, early days. We headlined the Memphis Blues Festival, and he went on before us. And I was like, I just don't think that's right. Right, right, right. I know we're selling a lot of records, but that's... It's crazy. That's John Lee Hooker, man. Yeah. Never get out of these blues alive, you know. Yeah. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah, he was as cool as it gets.

[58:47] That's amazing, man. [58:48] Have you ever met anybody that just like, you're like, I can't even believe I'm talking to this person? Yeah. [58:54] *sigh* [58:55] Yes. [58:57] But... [58:58] One time it was Dr. J. Oh, wow. I was at some party in Vegas. This is back in the mid-90s, some VH1 thing or something. Yeah. [59:07] And I was standing outside, was at the hard rock. [59:11] And isn't the guy's name, Steve Wynn, who owns the thing, the Hard Rocker? Wynn? Yeah. Or something. He owns a bunch of that stuff out there. Yeah, and this was, you know, 30 years ago. [59:21] And I was there and... [59:23] He was like, oh, hey, Chris, you ever met Julius Irving? And I was like, I loved Dr. J so much growing up. He and George Gerber were my heroes. I played basketball. [59:35] and I was like he was just so cool and he was like hey man nice to meet you I was just like [59:44] a little kid. You know, I just couldn't believe that I met Dr. J. I should have Dr. J's hand. I got to throw him in there too. Wow. And the other one would be, um, [59:54] Thank you. [59:55] Robert Altman, the director. Oh, really? I met Robert at a party. [1:00:02] I was at a party, like a [1:00:04] Donatella... [1:00:06] Versace party in London and there were a bunch of famous people there, but everyone sat down at a table. [1:00:13] And, you know... [1:00:15] and different things. And he was a, I was just like,

[1:00:20] and he was with Richard E. Grant [1:00:23] They were making Gosford Park. Richard E. Grant also I was impressed to see and meet because of the film Withnail and I is one of my favorite movies of all time. And there's Withnail. You know, like there he is. I mean, it's Richard. [1:00:38] There's Bob Altman, who is, you know... [1:00:41] Lord of my imagination. One of the best films, my favorite films, some of my favorite films of all time. [1:00:47] So after when the dinner kind of like is less whatever people are up talking to other people, I just go over to him. I'm like, fuck it. I'm just going to, you know, I would be a little bit timid or shy in that situation. [1:01:01] And I would never think anyone – I still to this day never imagine anyone knows who I am or what I do or whatever. It's a good way to go through life, actually. Yeah, it is a good way to go through life. I'm being totally honest. Yeah. [1:01:12] And then you find out most people don't know who you are. Give a fuck what you do. But I go over and I introduce myself. [1:01:21] and I've, [1:01:21] instantly recognize that he smells like weed, like he's got a roach in his pocket or something. And I'm like, Bob, are you holding it? He goes, yeah, you want to get stoned? I was like, yeah. So he pulls out a joint and we're sitting there and we're just talking about weed. And he's like, it's hard to get, I get this from California. And I was like, wow, man. And we smoked a joint and talked a little bit about music and jazz and London and [1:01:49] And that was kind of it. And he was like, oh, you should come by the office.

[1:01:53] And I never took him up on it, like the production office, just because I just felt out of my depth. You know what I mean? I should have. But that was like one of those things I will always remember. [1:02:08] it's interesting when you meet people that were heroes to you and they're just, they're human beings. They're just normal. Yeah. And then you realize like, especially in your case, like you've become that to other people. And then some kid will come up to you and, [1:02:21] Chris Robinson? Yeah, yeah. And you're like, yeah, a fucking normal person. Just a person. But to them, you're the Black Crows. You're not a normal person. Right, right. You're a fucking god. You know, it's weird. You're an inaccessible, like, plateau of society that very few people ever experience. I think music is a part of that as well. Yeah. You know, like you said. I mean, and I, you know, there will always be... [1:02:47] I don't know. I think that there's a connection in... [1:02:54] creation, art, you know, where does the idea come from? [1:02:58] I mean, I think there's people who can manipulate that and make like, I'm going to make a pop song and it's going to sound like this. And I'm not saying that it's not special, not good. But then I think there's other things that there's. [1:03:11] I'm not using it in a Christian way or whatever, but there's a divine spark of something that happens or whatever. [1:03:18] Thank you. [1:03:19] drops in your lap, imagination-wise. The Muse. The Muse is real. The Muse is real. I think it is real, too. And the one thing that I do believe about the Muse...

[1:03:30] And I consider the muse a female... [1:03:34] presence, a female dynamic. [1:03:38] And I feel that the muse, at least the muse that I feel, is a... [1:03:46] A very jealous thing. And I don't mean it in like any... [1:03:51] possessive way or anything weird, but just like the second your devotion is turned somewhere else, the muse could leave you. [1:04:01] That might be as superstitious as throwing salt over your shoulder or whatever, but I honestly believe that. And it makes it difficult in life because life isn't. [1:04:11] just the muse. Life isn't just the dream world that I live in and my imagination. And the ideas have to come from somewhere. It's not just singing and dancing and you have to have ideas. What is this? You know, for me, I've always had to be involved with every aspect, the album covers, the stage design, the fucking laminate, everything has to fit into a world that I can feel like I want to inhabit, you know, something that's comfortable and interesting. Yeah. And I think [1:04:41] And I think if you're like, oh, you know what, I'm going to... [1:04:45] If my reverence for that goes away, even in the slightest, I feel that she will turn her back on me forever and I'll have nothing, no more poetry, no more music. Well, you're probably right because let's assume the muse is real. The muse would probably reserve its greatest inspiration for its most devouted followers.

[1:05:11] I think so. Yeah. The most devout followers are the ones that are going to be adherent to a ritual. [1:05:17] sit in front of the computer or the notepad or however you write, [1:05:21] And just spend time. Yeah, I could never, ever write lyrics on a screen. I could never do it. You write it on paper? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [1:05:28] Does anybody write lyrics on screens? [1:05:33] I think, yeah. I think a lot of people. Like artists that you know of? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I think a lot of hip-hop people write rhymes on their phones. Yeah, I know. I've seen a lot of rock and roll people who are like, hey, you know. Well, the phone thing is convenient. I transfer all my notes to phones because occasionally I'll write something on the phone. The best thing about the phone, honestly, is like sometimes I have an idea. Maybe I've had a couple of cocktails, too, which is like, you know, [1:05:58] Memory is slippery. When you're drinking with friends and you're having a good time but you have an idea, I'll just run into a bathroom stall and I'll hit the voice recorder and just say it. I do that too. [1:06:08] I do the voice recorder as well for like if I'm plucking around a guitar and get a little something that I like. [1:06:16] or when Rich and I are writing songs too. Like if we're not, [1:06:19] But, you know, I've never had a home studio. I've never wanted that. Really? I never... You want to go to a place? I want to go to a place, and part of my thing is I like... [1:06:30] Thank you. [1:06:31] everyone's contribution. You know what I mean? Right. [1:06:35] I mean, in the Black Crows, Rich and I write the songs. But the contributions can be musical or it could be anything. Right. I mean, sometimes it's the engineer and the producer and the band. And it's the vibe of those people being together. And it's all of that circulating and percolating and making something, everyone in on it. You know what I mean? Like an old submarine movie or something. Like you're being depth charged and everyone has a job to do. So you don't die.

[1:07:05] Right. You know? But I think that's important for me. You know, like, I love... I mean, Prince is one of my... [1:07:14] musically... [1:07:16] I mean, there's an argument you made that maybe Prince was the baddest motherfucker of all time. Definitely an argument. [1:07:22] I mean, because there's people... [1:07:25] who can write there's people who can play there's people who can produce and record and there's people who can dance and sing and perform that guy did it all at its yeah ultimate level every musical instrument i mean yeah yeah he was insane it was so good and he was so different i remember when the first album came out it's just that picture of him with his shirt off with like his hair you know and you hear the songs you're like wow this guy's out there yeah the second record [1:07:55] The first one's called For You, and there's a picture of him kind of like – Is For You, is that one with Jack Me Off? No, that's later. Oh, okay. For You, the first sigil is Soft and Wet, which is before Jack You Off. It has to be Soft and Wet. I always laugh because by the time we're in the suburbs, I live in Atlanta. I'm obsessed with black radio at the time. I'm only listening to V103 FM Atlanta. [1:08:25] and Sky at the Omni. I'm going to see the Time, Vanity 6, SOS, Lakeside, Cameo. Oh, wow, Morris Day. Yeah, that was one of the best concerts I've ever seen.

[1:08:35] Um, [1:08:37] at that time in my life and only listening to that radio. [1:08:41] The first Prince single comes out, and it's soft and wet. It's a great song. [1:08:55] And I'm like, but I didn't really know what something wet was yet. You know what I mean? I was like, is this like a washcloth that he left in the bed? What is this? [1:09:02] Yeah. No, he was a character man. I never met him. A very original character. I never even, I saw him, I only saw him in concert once. Really? [1:09:10] And it was fantastic. He was amazing. [1:09:14] He was the only residency once at House of Blues in Vegas, [1:09:17] But it was like really late at night and I had to do something in the morning and I passed on going. To this day, I could kill myself. Yeah, because he would do the concert and then go play another eight hours or whatever. Yeah, well, he was going up really late. It's like it was after midnight and I was like, I got shit I have to do tomorrow. I can't do this. I can't be that tired. To this day, I'm like, fuck. Fuck. [1:09:38] You know, it's funny. The other person I met that put me very much at ease, but when I first said hello, that I was totally freaked out was George Jones. Oh, wow. I met him at the Ryman Auditorium after Johnny Cash passed away. It's like meeting Jesus at the Sistine Chapel. Man, man. I was like, I got ushered into this dressing room. I was a guest. Chris Christopherson was there. I was amazed to meet him.

[1:10:08] fucking George Jones. Old Possum's right there. And I end up talking to him. [1:10:14] He was really, really sweet, man, and wanted to talk about... [1:10:17] Kansas City Chiefs. He loved the Chiefs. And Bao used to watch football back then. But I will always remember. So they were – he was taking over for Johnny Cash singing – [1:10:32] I think it's Johnny Cash. Maybe it was Waylon's part. I don't know the song that great. The Highwayman. I was a highwayman. Only Columbia. Yeah. And he was the dam builder on the Columbia River or whatever. But he kept looking at the lyrics. He went, I'm a dam builder? [1:10:54] And Chris Gustafsson was like, man, it's not like, he goes, I don't think my fans want me. I'm a dam builder. I mean, he just kept thought it was so funny. [1:11:02] I was like, what amazing that I got to be in there. But the other funny part of that is they were like – [1:11:08] Chris, we take a picture with George and Chris. And I'm like, I'm getting my fucking picture taken. [1:11:14] With George Jones and Chris Christopherson. That's pretty wild. This is the coolest thing. And I'm like in the middle. I'm like, man, this is the coolest day ever. And then the door opens. [1:11:28] my ex-wife is there too [1:11:32] But then the door opens. [1:11:36] And Al Gore gets in the picture and ruins it. Like, get out of the picture. How did he get in there? I don't know. Did he start talking about the climate? Yeah, that was his initial climate thing. But I'm like, let's talk about your wife telling people what they can listen to. Yeah, Tipper Gore. Like, get out of here. Who are you? Self-righteous. Yeah, people forgot about that.

[1:12:00] She was the one who made... It actually helped albums. Because when they put those warning labels... Everyone wanted them. Everybody wanted a warning label one. I never even got a warning label. Oh, I remember when NWA had the warning label on them. I mean, all of them. But I mean, I'm like... [1:12:14] You guys are really seriously upset about... [1:12:17] the band Wasp? I mean, like, you feel like you... Yeah, it's really ridiculous now in hindsight. But I remember, you know, I was in high school at the time. It was a big thing. [1:12:27] Well, they're telling you what to do again. You know what I mean? And a lot of it was racist. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. But it was like, well, I guess it was out of high school. It was like when rap music was really starting to emerge. And those lyrics were so shocking, like early Ice-T, Ice Cube, all that stuff. I mean, it happened with rock and roll. You know what I mean? Elvis Presley. They wouldn't let him shake his hips on TV. I mean, it happened with Chuck Berry, too. You know what I mean? And there's that. [1:12:57] and [1:12:59] brimstone of rock and roll is ends pretty quickly when it starts and then you turn into like the paulanka pat boone sort of style until the earth until the beatles really come back around i mean right right you know you have lots of cool records in between there but they're very they're they're small but it's interesting like that where things come in waves [1:13:19] They come in waves of great artists. [1:13:22] for whatever reason. [1:13:23] Yeah, yeah. Well, I think... [1:13:27] I mean, at least if you look at, like, when I look at my age, people, we were just, we were close enough to the Beatles and close enough to the Sex Pistols and close, you know what I mean? And the Stones and Zeppelin. That shit's long gone for a lot of younger people, you know, as time moves on. Yeah. You know what I mean? I have to ask you a question because before I forget, did Rick Rubin try to get you guys to change the name of your band? Yes. And did he really try to get you to change the name of the band to KKK? Yes.

[1:13:57] County Crows. I know that the king of... [1:14:00] yoga or whatever the fuck he's selling. Whatever his... Under that beard, that guy... And it's funny because good for Rick Rubin, whatever. He can do whatever he wants. He has very little... But he did say that. That's a true story. And by the way, it was... [1:14:22] unimaginably offensive, unimaginably offensive. [1:14:28] Why would you say that to us? Explain the conversation. How does it happen? [1:14:35] Well, we were called Mr. Crow's Garden, and it's a book. [1:14:39] It's like a children's book from the 20s. [1:14:43] called Mr. Crow's Garden with an E. So it's a name, you know, he was Mr. Crow. So, [1:14:49] And we were kind of, you know, into like psychedelic, you know, like it was our, that was the name of our band. So when we made Shake Your Money Maker, a few years had gone by since we first were Mr. Crows Garden. And now we don't sound like that. And George Shikulius, our producer and our A&R guy and our lifeline to the music business, to the world, [1:15:14] who signed us and stuff, he was like, we need, you know, we've got to change the name. So there was a little bit of time where before we said we'll be the Black Crows. [1:15:26] And that's when Rick interjected that that's what he would... Because we're Southern. Aren't all Southern people fear-driven, ignorant bigots? Isn't every one of them...

[1:15:37] But he didn't say it that way, right? No, he said it like, it'll be cool. It'll be controversial. I'm like, yeah. Jesus Christ. Yeah. And how did he bring it up? I think this is a cool – you're from Cobb County. We're not from there, but we're from Atlanta. [1:15:57] By the way, it's fucking hard to get it to change Wikipedia. They're like, me and Rich are born in Marietta. We're from Atlanta, Georgia. You know, third generation Atlantans. And... [1:16:09] I was like, my grandfather was born in Atlanta in 1906. You know what I mean? [1:16:16] It's hard to get that shit changed, but he was like, oh, so you live in Cobb County, C-O-B-B. Well, you should change it to Cobb County Crows and put them all K's. [1:16:24] And we were like... [1:16:26] it's, that's [1:16:28] It's so foul and disgusting. It's also such a crazy idea. [1:16:34] to not have context to it, just to imagine that you're going to call a band the KKK. Like, what the fuck? [1:16:42] Cobb County Crows actually sounds cool. It's C's. [1:16:47] You know, it was the Cobb County CCC. No problems. Great name. Nothing wrong with it. You probably would have achieved the exact same success as the Black Crows. But I don't know, because the poet in me and the armchair occultists would believe that [1:17:04] We achieved what we achieved, became what we became, is because of the way the – some reason. Also, leaving the E in it made – that was the one thing that I said we would do. So it's – and by the way, leaving the E in it was also great, and it's still great to this day when someone requests something or wants something from you and they misspell the name of the band. We're like, no. No.

[1:17:28] fuck that no you could have get a look there out a little bit of a search it's right there you know what i mean it's not that hard to add a knee i just can't imagine that conversation someone's saying i can't imagine it either to be honest rick is a friend of mine so just [1:17:45] to, you know, [1:17:46] for clarity. I don't hate Rick Rubin or anything. He's a genius. He did say that. He's a fascinating guy. He's a very interesting thinker. And I can imagine this idea intrusively embedding itself in his mind and then coming out of his mouth. I just can't see how anybody... To be honest, I found a lot of... [1:18:06] uh, [1:18:07] Bye. [1:18:07] Especially when our first record came out and... [1:18:12] you know, [1:18:13] We're on tour and we're working that record and I'm the one who has to get up in the morning. And OK, so we're playing. We're in Cleveland. Now we're playing Cincinnati. I have to go to 10 radio stations in Cleveland and Cincinnati and do the handshaking and the talking and sell the band. [1:18:32] I... [1:18:34] I meet all the... [1:18:36] Like local promo people, you know, so they pick you up and stuff. And most everyone was really super cool. And they would be the people that could get you drugs and pay for drinks and stuff. Yeah. You know. And, uh. [1:18:50] But, wow, I would be driving in the car with some of these guys, and they'd be like, must be tough being, I'm like, you know, like, talking down to me like,

[1:18:58] You don't know me. [1:19:00] Just because I'm Southern and I'm a musician... [1:19:03] It doesn't mean that talking down to me like I'm stupid or something. I'm like, whoa, whoa. You don't know. What do they say? It must be tough in what way? Well, you're from Atlanta. Do they have schools there? You know what I mean? Yeah, just kind of. [1:19:16] patronizing me or thinking that everyone's supposed to go, oh, I just happened to be here in a place and damn me. You know what I mean? I'm like, we're not, I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. Yeah. You know what I mean? You don't know what books I read. You don't know what I'm into. You don't know anything about me. Well, there's always been a deep history of prejudice about people in what they would call the flyover states, the arrogance of New York and Los Angeles. And, you know, you kind of sort of accept. Dude, these were the flyover state people talking to me. Oh, that's funny. [1:19:46] Even worse. You know, there's some people that like to accept Chicago a little bit and some other cities, Detroit a little bit. But the reality was it was about the coasts and everything in between was bullshit. As if everyone in Rochester, New York has like a Ph.D. in French literature. By the way, that used to be kind of true when you would go on the road. Not true, but you would notice a marked difference in the awareness. If you were talking about anything, right? [1:20:12] out of the ordinary, the awareness of people's, what they knew in certain cities and certain places in the country versus what they knew in Los Angeles and New York. Yeah, yeah. There was a difference. I mean, they would, yeah, they're a hipper audience or something. Yeah, they weren't as sophisticated. They didn't know as much. But that changed with the internet. Yeah. That changed. That changed. Everyone has exact same references. You go to fucking Cleveland, Ohio, you know, wherever you go, there's fucking people that get it. They get it. Do you remember when Bill Hicks used to just...

[1:20:41] Look at the audience and go, moo! [1:20:45] Moo! Oh, yeah. A lot of people still haven't caught up to Bill. Oh, he was great. I mean, he used to call it his flying saucer tour because he would only go to places where flying saucers would land. [1:20:58] Weird little out-of-the-way spots. What's that record called, Rant in C Minor or something? A Minor? Is it A Minor? I don't remember. I don't know what key it's in, but that... Yeah. [1:21:08] I mean, I still put that on, and it's just unbelievably funny. Change comedy. Change comedy. Made people want to become profound. [1:21:18] It changed comedy from just a bunch of stuff to laugh at to stuff that made you think about it after you're done laughing. [1:21:24] I think George Carlin had that as well. For sure. Yeah, for sure, in a different way. But Hicks was more psychedelic-inspired, and it was just more esoteric. There's a rock and roll-like thing in him that, for lack of another description, I think, that gave him that kind of energy. Yeah, it's the right way to describe it, I think. I had a chance to see him live a bunch of times, luckily. Like in a way he understood what – [1:21:49] what a great underground band means to someone. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And what it meant to him. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. [1:21:55] He was an artist. He was an artist that was also a comedian. He wasn't trying to conform to whatever the stereotypical, this is the guy that's going to get a sitcom act is going to create. [1:22:06] - Yeah. [1:22:07] Yeah. [1:22:08] But there's not a lot of those. Is it worth – is the sitcom worth it? It doesn't exist anymore. No, but I mean for those comics that like took that route. You know what? It was the golden carrot. It was the thing that they held over all of our heads is that if you develop an act that can be converted into a sitcom, all of a sudden you're Tim Allen and you have $50 million in the bank. Or you're Jerry Seinfeld or you're Brett Butler or you're Roseanne Barr. There was like a few of those people. Yeah.

[1:22:38] that people forgot about, but they made a lot of money as well. And it was this thing that if you could get on a sitcom, and then all of a sudden you're the king of queens. Like my friend Kevin James, that was his thing. Right, right. And that's how he got through it. And that was the magic portal, the magic portal to wealth. And it also – [1:22:56] fucked up a lot of people's acts. That's what I mean. After that, now you're kind of stuck and... Censored. [1:23:04] Yeah, and now the things that you want to say you can't say. They self-censor. This is the saddest thing. I know some of the great comics of the 90s that are ruined because they self-censor now because they sort of developed this act for television, and then once they were on television, they got all that TV money. They wanted to keep it coming in, so they never really branched out into more offensive subject matter or just more provocative. More provocative. You know what I mean? I think irreverent in some ways. [1:23:34] Feel free. Everyone else will judge what that is. Yeah. But it's just the problem is you're never going to make everybody happy. And now way more people have an opinion they can express because of social media. Everyone can express their opinion. It's not as simple as you hope to get the favor of a reviewer. Someone who's cool, really likes bands, comes to see, oh, Bob's here. This guy's fucking cool. He's going to review our show. And you're like, he kind of trusted Bob. Bob was a good guy. He really loved music. He wasn't trying to tear things down. [1:24:04] anymore. Now, what everyone's trying to do is get people on social media to like them or not be mad at them. So when they put out a special, you see... Not be mad at them. Yeah. You see these... The role of the artist sometimes is to make your audience mad at you, to challenge them. I mean, you know what I mean? In a way like, God, how many...

[1:24:25] Things in life that I didn't like at a time that I finally found my way through later and be like, oh, of course, thank you. You know what I mean? [1:24:34] Of course, that's the natural progression. It's the natural way. And by the way, not everything is supposed to be, like you were saying, a natural. [1:24:44] I guess that's where we are with this social media. Nothing can have that. [1:24:48] sort of [1:24:49] mystique around it anymore because it's it's it's forcing too much out of someone you're expecting too much from someone to either follow you and or understand get it or acceptance right yeah well it's just a foolish pursuit the pursuit of other people who you don't even know their their love and attention and you'll morph and change and adapt whatever you're trying to produce in order to gain their favor that's a fucking folly that's such a foolish way of interacting with [1:25:19] human beings. And whatever you create is not going to resonate. It's completely false. And you can see, personally, I think you're starting to see culturally where that hollowness and that falseness is [1:25:34] isn't helping. [1:25:36] Oh, it's definitely not helping. It's pushing us over the edge. Yeah, it's not good. You need... [1:25:42] experiences from people where when they resonate these, when they put out these works, whether it's a book or music or anything, this thing represents their soul and their perspective and their actual,

[1:25:59] This is a thing they've created. Not a thing they're doing so they hope you like it. Not a thing they're doing so they hope you don't get mad. Not a thing they're doing where you highlight social issues so people think they're a virtuous person. [1:26:13] It's not. Well, it's funny when you say that, the virtuous part of it. That's funny, too, because... [1:26:19] you know, [1:26:21] All right. [1:26:21] especially like, you know, the lobby of your place is full of pictures of famous people who have been arrested for shit. Yeah, all my mug shots. And it's like, I mean, in a way, in a counterculture way... [1:26:34] Whether it's a poet, a musician, a jazz musician, anyone. You know, Robert Mitchum. You know Robert Mitchum's cooler than Kurt Douglas? Because he got busted for smoking pot, okay? So Robert Mitchum's cooler than you, Kurt Douglas. [1:26:48] But... [1:26:51] Thank you. [1:26:52] The outsider in culture. You know what I mean? The loser and the outsider are other themes that we do not celebrate as much. And I'm not talking about some fabricated pop star who pouts and is like, look how dark I am. You know what I mean? That's not – that's not – [1:27:08] what I'm talking about. And that's always again showbiz and corporate things, you know, can manipulate these kind of archetypes and put them in genre-specific things that they want because they know. [1:27:23] Formulating a rebel is so gross. Oh my god. A formulated rebel. A disingenuous formulated rebel. You see them. You do, but I think they sort of make you

[1:27:38] true artists. It really is just their expression, what they're trying to create, that they hope people enjoy. It's funny because that's more than ever, not just for the fact that [1:27:50] I really... [1:27:52] Had to go through certain things to come full circle with my career and my brother and what the Black Crows mean. [1:28:02] And my life, a lot of things, you know. A lot of it starting with... [1:28:07] With my wife, Camille and stuff. [1:28:10] I [1:28:11] One of the things that keeps me excited and one of the main things that I love is I know that we're – and call us old-fashioned or call us naive or – [1:28:24] Anything you want, it doesn't matter. But we were talking about that stupid flame idea, this purity. But I know when we... [1:28:32] go out on tour and we write songs, make records, play concerts, [1:28:36] It's something that is... [1:28:38] raw still in there. We're not in-air monitors. There's no computer on our stage. You know what I mean? You see these fucking bands cancel a show because their laptop didn't work. I'm like, well, borrow your mom's. [1:28:53] Borrow your mom's laptop. Do they really cancel shows because their laptop crashes? Yeah, it happens all the time. That is fucking hilarious. And there's bands that are up there not even playing. They press a button and they're up. You know what I mean? Which is fine.

[1:29:08] over it. I get it. I'm [1:29:10] Again, I was born the same year the Beatles made Revolver. I get it. You know what I mean? [1:29:16] But think about that. In my daughter's lifetime, the Beatles will be a fucking hundred years old. Those records will be 1964 is a hundred years ago. That's crazy. You know what I mean? That's so crazy when you think about it that way. [1:29:28] Because when I was a kid, it was just a decade or two ago. [1:29:30] Well, in the same decade between the Beatles, if that 100 years was the end of the Civil War and the Beatles, you know what I mean? It's weird. It's a weird thing to look at time that way. [1:29:42] It really puts it into perspective because we look at everything through this lens of a finite lifespan of 100 years if you're lucky. We look at everything like this is like a long time, but it's not a long time. [1:29:58] the constitution, like America was founded in 1776. I go, people live to be 100. That's three people ago. [1:30:05] Three people ago, they started this. It's nothing. It's so new. [1:30:10] Everything's so new. Civilization itself. Oh, my God, it's so ancient. Is it really? It's not. I mean, you're talking about 3,000 years, but in the big scope of things. It's not that much time. And they... [1:30:24] And I think historically and because of science and things – [1:30:30] You know, it's like that idea of, well, this was the Bronze Age. It started on Thursday, but then they find a corpse in the ice in the Italian Alps, and the guy has a bronze sword. And he's 2,000 years before they thought. They're like, fuck, I got to re – There's a problem with that with archaeologists. I got to get my abacus out and do the math. Yeah, they're very reluctant to change the dates of things they've been publishing about forever. But there's some things that they find every now and then that force them.

[1:31:00] It's 11,000 years old, and they found it in the 90s. I believe it was a sheep herder found this piece of stone in the ground. He kicked at it, moved it around, and realized it had an edge to it. And then they excavated it, and it's this enormous temple structure. And to this day, they've only excavated like 5% of it. There's a lot of controversy behind it because people are like, why aren't they continuing to excavate? Like, what are they doing? Well, now in archaeology, they can do almost just as much with sonic. [1:31:30] They can plan out what's going on and not disrupt it. Well, that's how they know there's many, many of these structures around that same area. [1:31:36] You know, we did the last things are 11000 years old. The last show of our tour, we were in Merida, Spain, playing in a. [1:31:43] I mean, in a Roman theater. [1:31:46] that they had only... [1:31:49] done the excavations in the 50s, because I guess at a certain point... [1:31:53] They just filled – there's an amphitheater next to it where they would have gladiatorial games and things and then a theater for theatrical and religious purposes. But you're – you know, like we're – Pink Floyd gets Pompeii. We get Merida. It's still cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. But you're playing in this place. It was built during the reign of Augustus. [1:32:15] And [1:32:17] And then the guy goes, yeah, well, you know, it was just filled with trash. There it is. Wow. That's incredible. It was just filled with trash. And then finally they dug it all out of there, you know. And so then this was down there. Wow. That was all covered?

[1:32:31] Yeah. That's nuts. [1:32:33] That is so nuts. [1:32:35] It was fantastic. Beautiful place. We went to Greece last year. I got to see the... Delphi? Well, we went to Ulysses. Or no, how do you say it? Illusion. Well, the Illusion mysteries, right? Illusinian mysteries. Where you can descend into the cave, I think... [1:32:54] At one point it was a parking lot, from what I read, because I'm really... You mean now? Yeah, yeah, like where the original mysteries took place. No, no, you can still go there. Oh, really? Yeah, it's all cardened off. It's protected. You have to go through a gate to get in. There's guards there and stuff. But we went to there, which is where the Illusinian mysteries were, and I got really lucky to go with my friend Brian Murorescu. I was there with my family, and Brian was there at the same time, [1:33:24] this incredible book about the use of psychedelics in ancient Greece that's now been confirmed through, they take these old pieces of pottery and they found ergot in the pottery. Yeah, of course. They think all their wine was laced with psychedelics, and these people were, and they invented democracy. I mean, they were tripping balls and trying to give everybody an equal participation in society and figuring things out, but you're around these structures, and these are fucking things. [1:33:50] thousands of years old. What is it? What was it? The kukion? The drink? Yeah, the kukion. And they find this almost exact same structure in Peru as well.

[1:34:03] Really? And down in the thing, psychedelics, mirrors in the corner where they could build fires and like send lights around and stuff. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And then but what happens to in Greece is. [1:34:19] they, it's, what is the law? It's a once in a lifetime experience, but then the rich people get their hands on it and they start having their ceremonies. [1:34:28] private ceremonies, more exclusive or elitist. And that's kind of the fall of that. Well, the Romans put a stop to it. No, they didn't. People, no, they did. These people are like rethinking society the same way they put a stop to it in the 1960s when the government made all psychedelic drugs schedule one, when they were doing that so they can go after the anti-war protesters and the Black Panthers and they changed the counterculture movement. Cannabis is close to the same thing. I mean, you know, when I first made the decision, [1:34:58] to [1:34:59] be a daily cannabis user. I was an outlaw. [1:35:03] Now I'm a patient. Yeah, isn't that interesting? You're like, we used to be like, you know, people think they killed Bob Marley because of shit like that. But now it's just like, it's my medicine. Yeah. Well, you know, it's now in how many states, Jamie? Legal and how many? [1:35:21] Didn't we say it was like legal in 19? I think it's half the country. [1:35:26] has legal marijuana, half the country. [1:35:29] And the other half of the country wants it. [1:35:31] Like, what are we doing? Like, how the fuck is it 2024 with all that we know about all the drugs and that this one? 24 states, three territories in Washington, D.C. have legalized recreational cannabis use. Seven states have decriminalized its use. Commercial distribution is legal in all jurisdictions where possession is legal except for Virginia and Washington, D.C. Personal cultivation for recreational use is allowed in all jurisdictions except for Delaware, Illinois, New Jersey. That's surprising.

[1:36:01] Well, first off, let's just be honest. No one's ever... [1:36:05] ever had fun in Delaware. [1:36:07] I'm just kidding. Isn't that where Biden's from? I think it's just a dumb thing for us to be hanging on to, the fact that they're still allowing grown adults to tell other grown adults what they can do with their consciousness. With all the data that we know about things that are very harmful, that are not just legal but prescribed by doctors. How about just everything is harmful that they allow in the world? They don't give a fuck about the sea being a plastic desert but don't smoke pot. [1:36:36] that's always been the case with authority, isn't it? You know what I mean? Like language, you know what language you're, I'm what, you know what I mean? And, [1:36:45] What language can you use and how you use it? Sex and violence. Talk about Rome. Now we're going back to Rome. And one of the reasons Rome was so successful... [1:36:55] is because they placated, and we talk about Rome, we're not talking about Italy, we're talking about the city-state of Rome. That is the thing that conquered the Rome, the city-state. And the surrounding areas were other things. [1:37:08] But they keep their masses happy with violence and free bread. [1:37:15] In the same way that you control people by fear and ignorance. Keep them – you know what I mean? And it's exactly – And TikTok. [1:37:26] Just keep them mildly entertained all day long and distracted. I find the idea of TikTok about as interesting as the game TikTok. Oh, TikTok toe? TikTok toe, yeah. I'm not doing that either. No, I'm not doing that either. It is crazy when you go to the Coliseum and you realize the extent of the construction of it

[1:37:45] and how many different things they had going on, where they would turn into, like, they'd have boats. Naval battles. They'd fill it up with water. Incredible. Wild, wild shit. They'd have animals in cages they could raise through the floor. It's unimaginable. And now, you know, the thing about going there, too, is you go... [1:38:00] I wonder if they ever thought this was going to end. Did they ever imagine? No, of course not. No, they certainly never imagined some idiot comedian and his family from California at the time. We're going to go visit and go, whoa, cool. This is where they had sword fights. I mean, I imagine, yeah, it's... [1:38:19] I think some of the emperors probably in an egocentric way felt, and it's true. [1:38:25] Everyone knows – there might be some kid who never heard a Byrd's record, but he might know who Nero was or Caligula or something. Or like the most dramatic sort of deranged parts of like where the – where that period of Rome of the dictator starts to become – [1:38:46] It's just always shocking when you go to a place that was in complete control of, like, [1:38:50] most of the world and then now it's nothing. [1:38:52] Now it's gone. Now it's just ruins that people visit, and it's just a city. Yeah, what if Bill Gates had been like, you know, Guido, whatever? It would be a different thing. What if the whole Internet came from Italy, not America? You know what I mean? Right. [1:39:09] It's just always weird to go to a place, too, when you're from America. Claudio Gatzo, whatever. He came up with this. You know what I mean? But they had a pretty good run in the Renaissance.

[1:39:19] Well, they've had amazing runs. Artistically, I mean, that's also something I think about when I go to Italy. There is something about their life and their lifestyle that contributes to this incredible body of work when it comes to art, when it comes to music, when it comes to sculptures and paintings. There's so many great artists. Yes. [1:39:41] They came from that part of the world. Have you ever seen a book called Naples 44? No. Do you know this book? [1:39:47] It's one of... It's... [1:39:49] A friend of mine gave it to me a couple of years ago. [1:39:52] It's a British Secret Service officer, comes to Naples in 1944. [1:39:59] directly in the [1:40:01] you know, push of the allies pushing the Germans and then fascists up the peninsula from Sicily and then landing in Italy. And it's an unbelievable book that this guy writes. And it's it's it's. [1:40:17] the sadness and the like tragedy of it, [1:40:21] And like anything else, war is dramatic. War is pain and violent. The aftermath of war is something that people rarely can wrap their heads around or are interested in. Maybe because it's even, you know, you take away the drama of the battle and stuff. It's bleak. But there's something about, and this guy is not Italian, English guy. [1:40:41] But he captures the spirit, the humanity within this transitional period in Naples, but unimaginable stories.

[1:40:52] great depravity, but also great exalted human things as well. And then just some things that are incredible, like, you know, Italians in their clothes. And... [1:41:02] Even the rich, the aristocratic class in Naples to the person that could, when they didn't have any fabric. [1:41:10] Around this time after that, they're walking around Naples in beautifully tailored suits made of old army blankets that they would use black paint on to make them look chic. Really? Yeah. And I was like, wow, I would love to see that garment in a museum. But just all manner of... [1:41:29] things. And there's another American guy was there at the same time and wrote another [1:41:35] book about it, which is also very interesting because this guy... [1:41:39] It was one of the only books of that time. I have it in my phone, I could tell you, but it talks about like the gay scene with the soldiers in Naples and stuff, too, like during this thing, like just. [1:41:53] You know what I mean? Incredible stories, incredible survival and heroics and art and culture that still survive during the darkest time. It's a great, great book. Unbelievable. Unforgettable. What's always interesting, too, when you're thinking about things thriving and existing against resistance... [1:42:14] in a dark time or a different time, a time of much more difficulty, and you get a chance to... [1:42:22] sort of feel what they felt when they were doing what they were doing. I mean, I think

[1:42:27] Culturally, historically, I mean, I think one of the great reasons Europeans have a much different attitude. You're talking about, you know, Sicilians, Italians, everyone, French, Spanish. Spanish people know how to have a good time. Oh, yeah. Sure. Sure. [1:42:43] To have two events, like World War I and World War II... [1:42:48] the [1:42:49] Yeah, we have very little... [1:42:55] It's hard for us to understand what those two events must have felt like through communities, cities, families. [1:43:03] I just read another amazing book called Wine and War, and it's a history of the wine world. [1:43:08] business during the Nazi occupation during World War II. Unimaginable wild shit going on. But the French people, you know, because the Germans, they knew as well, like, you know, what's the blood of France? It's the wine. What is the thing that holds it together in all these things? But it's also a great commodity and also something of great elevated status, you know, all this stuff with the way they dealt with the Vichy... [1:43:34] I just, you know, and I'm like, wow, man, these guys had a lot on their plate for five years and leading up to the, you know, inevitable Nazi occupation. Well, even in World War I. I mean, in World War I, France lost 25 percent of its men. Man, yeah. And then in World War II, they lost another 25 percent. And in the book, I mean, and also just history, I think that's one of the people, you know.

[1:43:59] One of the reasons I think Germany... [1:44:01] I mean, a lot of French people just didn't want to do it again. [1:44:06] You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And I think, you know, it's funny too. History repeats itself all the time. We know this. And there was a lot of infighting and political things within the French government at that time, whether that's through the military or whatever, that made them really a soft spot. You know what I mean? They had no – there was no cohesiveness of the way they would think about fighting or defending or whatever as well. Yeah. [1:44:35] They went out in the end, you know what I mean? But this book about just how that affects all the different wine regions and the characters and stuff. That has to be insane. It's a great, great book. Because it's so important over there. Wine is everything to them. [1:44:48] It's so important. And, you know, it's funny. One of the things in the book, you're like, okay, so they're obviously, you know, confiscating everything for the Wehrmacht and doing all this stuff. [1:44:58] But they take this – I might be wrong, but I think it's the Pouet Fousé. [1:45:03] they take this... [1:45:05] this guy has however many... [1:45:08] casks or whatever. [1:45:10] And they just take everything. [1:45:14] The guy's upset. He's been in his family for 400 years or whatever. And he's sitting there with his head in his hands, and they're like... [1:45:22] It's just wine. He goes, I know it's just wine, but they destroyed 300-year-old casks, the oak barrels. That's the secret to our wine. And they chopped them up and threw them on a fire or whatever. You know what I mean? And he was more upset about that.

[1:45:38] than the wine itself at that time. And he was like, irreplaceable. Could never, ever have that again. It's been in my family for, you know, stuff like that really gets my head spinning up. Oh, yeah, forget it. It's not just the grape and the person that makes the wine. It's that, you know what I mean? It's every detail, every aspect. Well, they can also destroy the history of how it was made. Like, people won't know how to do it correctly. I mean, that's one of the darker aspects of occupation is when they destroy ancient stuff, [1:46:08] I mean, could you imagine what that – I mean – [1:46:11] We have no, I mean, unimaginably. And by the way, who burned it down? [1:46:16] Christians. Did they? Yeah, it was Christian people who ran amok because of something that had happened, some sort of crime that was committed or something. And they it was the early Christians who burned that down. Those motherfuckers. Can you imagine if that had some sort of an explanation as to how they built the pyramids and was lost forever? [1:46:37] I mean, it could be anything. Anything. I mean, millions and millions of – But that was the most sophisticated society that has even today ever existed. If you look at ancient Egypt, in terms of their ability to construct things that baffle us to this day, like the Great Pyramid baffles people to this day. There's hundreds of thousands of people debating how and why and what they were for and what they did, and we really don't know.

[1:47:07] science becomes one thing and the occult is another thing. Right. There's a certain time, and I'm really interested in John Dee, the great occultist, scientist, English, around Elizabeth I reign, alchemist. But that his scientific ideas were equally, they possessed the same gravity as his occult ideas, and those things were in the same world. They weren't removed from each other. [1:47:37] and one was serious. They were both taken [1:47:41] with the same level of sobriety or whatever. [1:47:45] you know, and [1:47:47] And that's what we were talking before. I think there's a – to remove the mystic from everything or not to be able to at least have a nod to it or understand – I mean, what is ancient Egypt? You know what I mean? Yes, they're a great civilization that could organize, but at its base and what's holding it together is this mystical, like, weird thing, you know? Yeah, very much so. So to remove that completely – [1:48:12] I think it's – I don't know. It seems so rigid. It's a foolish, rational reductionist. There has to be integration of different things. [1:48:23] Because... [1:48:24] You feel people's need for that to integrate those things. Well, there has been in all great cultures, right? I mean, in Chichen Itza. Have you ever been to the ancient Mayan structures? I've been to some, but I didn't go to that one. I went to two other ones. Places of worship. They all involve rituals. There was a lot going. And what they did was incredible. And psychedelics. And psychedelics, yeah. I mean, as well. I went to Chichen Itza. We got lucky.

[1:48:54] things to us and he was talking about the different psychedelics that they believed that they would use and the way they had structured all their buildings to align with constellations and the way they had sort of worshipped this whole integration of the sky into all of their architecture I mean it's an integration into a universal consciousness I mean that's really what it is and it's funny because you think well you're poisoning the water well you're poisoning it's all one living organism [1:49:24] And the universe is one living organism. Right, right, right. I mean, I don't want to get too far out, man, you know, but... [1:49:31] Of course, it's all just like the ecosystem or whatever. Like the frog eats the tadpole and then the bird eats the frog. You know what I mean? But just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it's not. It scales up. Yeah. And out and within. And in. Yeah. Forever. Yeah. That's the reality of it. So it's not just we're poisoning the water. We're poisoning ourselves. Yeah. And of course, you know. [1:49:55] Again, I... [1:49:57] I would like to think the Earth is a strong thing, but... [1:50:00] And I don't get wrapped up in it, but it's like, I mean... [1:50:04] If you live in your own shit, you get sores. You know what I mean? Right. Hence the plague. Yeah. [1:50:13] Yeah. [1:50:14] Yeah, there's a... [1:50:16] When you think about the universe as a whole, it's just too big for our brains. We just think about our neighborhood or our lives or our personal problems or our bills. Or our TikTok. Yeah, nonsense. And it's just thinking about nonsense seems easy. You know what people think about? That they can buy shoes that they don't have to touch to put their feet in. I see this. You just order them? I see a commercial and the guy walks over there like, never touch your shoes again. I'm like...

[1:50:44] wow, you know what I mean? Like, finally. Oh, it's shoes you can slide into. Yeah, and I'm like, amazing. Everything is, everyone relax. You never have to touch your shoe. What if I want to touch my shoes? Yeah. [1:50:59] Yeah. [1:51:01] Yeah, well, some people don't understand. They want comfort. And some people, especially if you're doing something you don't enjoy, you think of struggle as like your job or work. And then once you're not doing that, you don't want any struggle. You just want relaxation. But isn't it funny also that our culture is dictating a certain health thing? Take the sober challenge. Go to the gym. Buy these gym clothes and walk around in them. Do all this, but we're not going to take care of anything else. You know what I mean? Like you don't care about our mental health. [1:51:31] We really care about our health. You know what I mean? You don't do anything, but it's like, but culturally, let's start putting this out there. You know what I mean? Like why, you know, there's, when I first went to New York City, there were bars and bookstores and weird junk stores and all sorts of things that weren't corporate. [1:51:48] And now it's just gyms and banks. And I think I don't really go to the gym, but I imagine you could get an ATM in the gym next door to the bank with the ATM. I'm sure you could. A lot of gyms, I'm sure, have ATMs. I'm just saying, you know, like, be healthy. You know what I mean? But I'm like, it is funny. There's nothing that's saying to you, be cerebral. You know what I mean? There's not a lot out there. You know, you watch old...

[1:52:15] Dick Cavett shows, they're smart people, and they're not promoting a movie or a fucking book or whatever. They're just talking about ideas and philosophy and art and their culture and the society. Even, what was his name? [1:52:30] Mike Douglas show. Yeah. Muhammad Ali. Yeah. And John Lennon and then some senator from Oklahoma or whatever. You know, like, they're just talking. You could do that back then. Now it's got to be, you know, the interview is pre-done. It's about the mood. They show the – But that's only on television. But that's also why podcasts are so popular. True, true. You can just kind of talk about anything. You have a new – [1:52:52] place that's also not under the scrutiny of having to play [1:52:57] commercials every five seconds. That's a big factor, but it's also not under anybody else's direction or advice. That's what's really important. If I'm not doing it, it's not going to happen. I'm just being cynical. I'm just being cynical. But I mean, if I'm not doing it at my level of the game, if I'm not doing it, you don't have to do it. You don't have to. All you have to do is make something that resonates with people and avoid... [1:53:21] anybody else's input. I've had a lot of bad input come my way that I've ignored. You know, especially in the early days when things started to kind of take off, everybody has an opinion about how you can grow this thing to the next level, which is what I'll talk about. You know how to take the show to the next level. You know, I've thought about having more celebrity and more of this and that. Everyone has advice, but maybe just avoid these kind of topics or maybe this and that. Like, as long as you don't have any input from other people, then whether people like it or don't like it,

[1:53:47] At least it's you. It's you and the people you're talking to, and it's a real thing. It's not a – It's not a promotional thing. It's not a – [1:53:57] buy this. Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It just exists as... Which is just one dimension of things. Yes. And, you know, it's nice to be clean cut and your teeth are white and you're smiling and you're selling shit, you know what I mean? By the way, I got a pair of shoes. You don't even have to touch them. Like, what size are you? I don't even understand that. But it's just... If I could walk around like an 18th century French Duke, I would. Well, look at that jacket. That is a rock and roll fucking jacket. [1:54:26] I've been looking at that thinking the moment I saw you, can I wear that? I don't know if I can pull that off. Your muscles are too big to get in there. Well, I mean, I can get one tailored. Yeah, yeah, we can get you one. But I'm just thinking, I don't know if I can pull that off out in public. People are like, what are you doing, dude? As a comedian, you can't be too cool. Unless you're Cat Williams. I knew you were going to say Cat Williams. Cat can be cool as fuck. I'll tell you why Cat Williams is cool, because he's still out there. [1:54:51] talking shit and an eight year old beat him up that time. Remember that shit? An 11 year old kid in the hood grabbed that motherfucker in the headlock and he's like, let go of me! And he's like laying on the ground and I was like, man, you gotta have some, you gotta be cool to come back from that. Well, he's just real. You know, he is who he is and everybody loves him. But that guy can wear anything. But I can't. I can't wear sparkly shoes. Look at him!

[1:55:20] fun guy really cool i only got to meet him the one time where i did a podcast with him and you know and it was because he did another podcast we said joe rogan never have me on his podcast and i'm like i'll have you on anytime you want like we just never talked i never met him before oh really no and then finally i thought comedians are like drummers they all know each other you know every drummer knows every drummer in every band i know everybody else i just never met him that's funny that's funny he was already so huge that when he would stop by in comedy clubs this [1:55:50] Chronicles, he would only like go by, you know, we'd go to a bunch of different clubs. And if you weren't there when Cat was there, you missed him. So he only came to the comedy store like a handful of times. And the comedy store was, that was my haunt. And that's where I went with all my friends and all the, you know, the best comics in LA and Europe. Of course. Collaborate at the comedy store. And I never got to see him there. I mean, I'd heard he was like smack somebody once, like so he got to fight with somebody in the front porch one night. I missed it, you know, but I just, I'd always admired him. [1:56:20] I'd always talk nice about him. I didn't understand why he thought I wouldn't have him on the podcast. But once I met him, he's a joy. He's a funny, smart dude who's a lot of what he's saying, he knows what the fuck he's doing. He's like very tongue-in-cheek and just having a good time with it. [1:56:36] But he's a genuine character, like a genuine, unique character. I would love to meet him. Oh, he's great. You'd love him. [1:56:43] Very smart dude, too. If I see him at the airport, I'll say, yo, man, you like this jacket? [1:56:49] He might be able to fit in that. It'll be a little long. Might have to get the sleeves taken in. Where the fuck do you get that jacket?

[1:56:58] My wife got me this jacket. It's pretty dope. She's got good taste. Yeah, she truly does. Yeah, and then you're wearing about 10 pounds of silver. [1:57:06] Yeah, it's true. They call me the silver stacker. I don't know if you've done that. That's what the kids call it. My daughter calls it that when she wears a bunch of bracelets. That's my stack, man. Stacks. They have stacks. That's my stack. I'm just learning about these things. I just got to be careful not to fall in the pool. Yeah. Well, I just love when rock stars stay rock stars. Nothing bums me out more than seeing an old rock star in a golf shirt. [1:57:28] I'm like, dude. [1:57:29] Come on, man. You've got to hang in there. I know you're 60. Fucking hang in there, bro. I just saw the stones. They're 80. Bro, they're amazing. Amazing. I love them. I mean, I have stones. I mean, the stones are everything. I love the rolling stones. I always have. [1:57:47] And the Black Crows toured with them in 1995. We did all of Europe with them. We did Wembley Stadium with them. I've, you know... [1:57:55] I've got to hang with Keith and Ron. I've hung with Mick a little bit. They're the fucking Rolling Stones. And so my wife and I and my 14-year-old daughter, who lives on the East Coast, she was with us for the few weeks this summer. I'm like, let's go. You know what I mean? I haven't seen them in a while. And we went and... [1:58:17] I went without any, you know what I mean? I went with nothing. I wasn't going in with any expectation except to be there with everyone and see the Rolling Stones and be there.

[1:58:31] And they were great. Mick Jagger's voice was... [1:58:35] incredible incredible at i mean his energy and stuff's incredible but his singing i mean they did wild horses that night and i looked over and my 14 year old was like crying and i was like i'm so proud of you you know she's feeling it so deep yeah great midnight rambler the this they're in a stadium with just like eat ronnie and keith just had like two speakers on stage and still playing a lot of bands don't play live anymore they have their digital shit through the pa there's not even [1:59:05] It's all through their in-ears, and to me, that's really weird. Whatever it takes for you to get the gig, I'm hip, too. People do it. I've seen cool shows like that, but personally, I like a lot of... [1:59:16] Sonic chaos. You want it real. I want to feel it. I saw them at CODA, the Circuit of the Americas. [1:59:22] couple years ago. And, you know, it's just when you watch Mick Jagger walk out on the stage, you almost can't believe he's really there. [1:59:30] Like, how is that really him? I told my wife he's like a Sasquatch, but everyone's seen him. Right. It's like he and he's still out there. I remember Bill Hicks had a bit in 1988 about the Stones still doing it. Yeah. In 1988. But there's this crazy thing. Oh, my God. The Stones have a new album. Like, what? [1:59:51] This is 88. Yeah. And here we are in 2024, and they're still out there killing it. And the show was amazing. It was amazing. Amazing. It's so good. The best, I mean, the best, I consider myself a midnight rambler aficionado. One of the best midnight ramblers I've ever heard. Oh, they were so good. It was so good. And people were, you know what I mean? Just, it was, it was really, I'm so happy that we went to SoFi Stadium. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[2:00:21] Great. You know, because I will admit sometimes and OK, let's be honest, I get access to backstage. You know, we have it's cool. But sometimes in big places like that, something I get a little bit like not because. [2:00:34] that people would know who you were. I just get weird around giant crowds. I did when I was little. I didn't like theme parks, you know, all sorts of weird stuff. But it was so cool. [2:00:46] I was so inspired. You know what I mean? I like floated out of there so happy. That guy has two trailers that he takes with him everywhere that are just a gym. [2:00:55] Two huge trailers. [2:00:57] Mick Jagger works out every day. And when he gets out on that stage, he's fucking 80. He might be 81 now. If I live to be 80, you can come find me. I'm going to be 300 pounds living in Sicily. You know those beautiful painted wagons? They'll drag me around. But you won't even get to 300 pounds eating their food. No, you don't. That's what's crazy. That's when you realize we're being poisoned. When you eat in Europe for a week and you don't gain any weight. You're like, this is nuts. I had pizza. I had pasta. [2:01:27] You come over here, you feel like you got hit with a tranquilizer dart. Like we're fucking poisoning ourselves. You won't get to 300 pounds if you live in Sicily. Unless you drink a lot of fucking wine. Yeah, and even the wine is like... It's better. Well, it's just, there's something about like just the air there. Just something about the atmosphere. I'm not a, you know, I'm not, I have no, I'm English. We are pretty much in our DNA English and then like a big scoop of Polish Jew on top. You know, not even a big scoop at this point.

[2:01:57] Both my grandfather and my dad were shiksa-loving. [2:02:01] Jewish men who whittled me and my brother down to about 20%. And, uh, [2:02:10] But when I'm, I don't know, there's something about there. [2:02:15] That is so just, I don't know. [2:02:18] I love to go to Paris, but Paris isn't relaxing. I'm out all doing stuff. I love London. I love Madrid. I love lots of places. I love Rome. I love... [2:02:27] Lots of places in the world. [2:02:29] But something about Sicily, man, I'm like just – I'm in. You know what I mean? Like this is – like you said, it's something about the lifestyle. Just so laid back. And it's – maybe I like it because it's a bit of anachronism. I think – you know what I mean? Like you're going – you feel like you've stepped out of the same pace and or rhythm of the modern future world that we see every day. Yes. It's a different vibration. It's a different – I mean, and then everybody's doing it that way too. [2:02:59] sort of settle into their way of life. Sort of settle into their pace of things. And then if you need a shot of adrenaline, just hit Palermo, because that place is wild. Oh, I'm sure. It was so good. Is it still run by the mob? [2:03:12] They say no. Oh, then yes. [2:03:17] They say that it doesn't exist anymore, but... [2:03:21] But if I remember, there was a big scandal during lockdown in some small town in Sicily, or maybe it was Palermo. I'd have to research it today.

[2:03:34] The police were upset because some old mob guy had died and they had a giant parade. No one was in here. Yeah, everyone was just out there. Old people, you know, everyone was out there doing their thing for... [2:03:45] Don, whoever it was, who was not with us anymore. And I was like, okay, they didn't want that story out. You know what I mean? Yeah. [2:03:53] Well, those people ran that place for a long-ass time. They're an integrated part of their society like the Yakuza is in Japan. [2:04:01] For a very long time, actually. For a very long time, yeah. The way it works. [2:04:06] Have you ever seen a funny movie called Johnny Stichino? No. With Roberto Bellini, the Italian comedic actor? No. You would love it. Yeah? It's so funny. It's from the 80s, and Stichino's a toothpick, yeah? So he's Johnny Toothpick. And it's that – what's the story of – it's a famous story that – [2:04:26] he's a school teacher in Naples or whatever or in Italy and this girl who's [2:04:34] wife or lover whatever some big gangster in in sicily she see he he's trying to he's in hiding because he did like rat it on someone i don't know something she sees him and he looks just like him so she brings him to sicily and he's like walking around people like yo what are you doing you know what i mean like so it's that kind of thing but it's unbelievably funny movie [2:04:56] It's insane. Do you remember there was an Italian singer who created a very popular song where it was fake American lyrics?

[2:05:06] God, I'm trying to remember his name, but it was... [2:05:10] a song where he's singing fake words that sound like he's singing like the rolling stones or or or or you know the beatles or something like that but he's doing it with fake words it's like what he thinks American songs sound like but it's gibberish this is the guy what is his name? [2:05:29] Adriano Celentano. Give me some volume on this. Wow. Listen. It's really cool. That's amazing. I love that. It's a cool song, too. This song is very cool. There's a couple of different versions of it. This is like a live performance of it, but there's another one that's like a music video of it, and it's like really fucking interesting what that guy did. That's cool. That's really good. Yeah, he just made up fake American music. It's fucking great. I'm going to do that next week. Why not? Fuck it. I mean, you know, [2:05:59] There's a lot of songs that have words that aren't really words. [2:06:03] They're just kind of like sounds. Dan Arbok talks about that from the Black Keys. A lot of times when he sings things, he's just making up sounds, making up words. Mick Jagger did it. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, or he took words and mashed them into something that was more. Especially live in the 70s, he has a lot of vowels going on. You're like, I don't know what he said. So good. But man, he's not lost any of the energy. If you watch his old performances and now, it's just an older guy doing the same vibe. [2:06:33] It's also very cool because they play everything in the same key. You'll find a lot of older... And I get it, man. Singing is...

[2:06:41] Singing is a physical thing. [2:06:44] I mean, my one thing is kind of like the muse. Like, if I stopped singing, it would go away. [2:06:50] You know what I mean? If I didn't say, you know, [2:06:54] If I'm going to take two years off, I would never get back to where my voice is. Why is that? [2:07:00] It's just the nature of the physicality, I think. [2:07:04] You know what I mean? Especially as it's 35 years, 40 years of singing. So it's like you're working muscles in your neck. Your vocal cords are just muscles, yeah. Wow. And you're working them on a regular basis and they get out of shape. [2:07:15] Yeah. And then like that, and then it just won't come back. Or it won't come back to where I'd like to, like my, I really like where my voice is. Yeah. I say we sing the songs in the same keys, you know, it was funny. We played the forum. We were the first concert in the forum, LA forum after COVID. And it was a bit, I had never played there. It was a big night. It was, you know, friends and family. [2:07:45] first two records and signed the band after the show he was like if I had known you'd still be singing 30 whatever years later we would we could have put the keys down for you you know I was like that wasn't how it worked back then cause you know in rock and roll you get you know you have the verse and then you get to the chorus and you want to get it exciting so yeah [2:08:05] You want to... [2:08:06] knock it up a notch, you know, but we don't change them either. And I like that. I mean, my voice has changed obviously, but, but it's still the same key. Do you wonder how long you're going to do it?

[2:08:16] Do you ever think about stopping? I don't... [2:08:21] I do sometimes. [2:08:25] You know, the pandemic was funny for me. [2:08:28] Because at first, not financial things or whatever. It was just like, you know, since I was a teenager, pretty much this is what we do. We tour and we do concerts and we make music, blah, blah, blah. [2:08:41] And I was like, maybe I'm going to go a little... [2:08:43] kooky not doing it. [2:08:47] I really, I mean, I had horrible days like everyone else. [2:08:51] you know, despair and fear and stuff of the unknown. [2:08:55] But a lot of those days, like... [2:08:58] I was like, I have a lot of interests. You know what I mean? I have a lot of others. I'd like to write a book. I'd maybe like to write more than one book, you know. [2:09:07] Find my voice. [2:09:09] outside of the musician in another artistic way or whatever, and just loving my wife and, [2:09:16] living life. Yeah, and moving to Sicily. But [2:09:22] A lot of those things, you know, I'm not ready to do that now. But also I look ahead and I'm like, do... [2:09:31] Do I want to be on stage when I'm 75? [2:09:35] Do I want to? [2:09:36] There's a difference if I have to. [2:09:38] I don't know. I guess I'll call it when I if I'm lucky enough to get to 75. I get through the end of the week. You know what I mean? But I do. I love it.

[2:09:51] But that event gave me the perspective of there's... [2:09:55] You know what I mean? I would hate to be – I've always hated the idea that this is all I could do. Mm-hmm. [2:10:03] That might sound weird, but... No, no, it's a great thought. Because I'm born to do it. I love that kind of scenario. [2:10:09] You know, like this is my wife's like when I watch you, we're friends. When I see you in your element, this is obviously what you're supposed to do. Yeah. [2:10:19] But I think I have – I don't know if ambition is the right word, but I definitely have interest in things that have nothing to do with this. Yeah. Well, that's part of being a human, right? You don't want to be isolated to one specific interest. There's so many fascinating things. And isolation, that's a thing too. And I'm really happy with – [2:10:38] Could we have a level of success that's greater or whatever? [2:10:43] Yeah, maybe. I don't know. But the one thing I like about my life is I'm not the kind of I'm not. [2:10:51] So well known that I still can't do my own grocery shopping. I love to cook. I like to go to the market. I like to pick out my shit, you know, or that. [2:11:01] You can't get, you know what I mean? We have access to the whole world, you know, and I don't have to worry about anyone giving a shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. [2:11:09] The people that do like it, that come up to me wherever I am in the world, they're usually real fans. They're not celebrity people. Right, right, right. So they're like, man, I saw you when you played this song. And that's the other thing about music. It's like rock music.

[2:11:25] You can do a lot of stuff, but one thing about... [2:11:29] the songs we've written and I meet people. [2:11:33] And people play the songs we've written at weddings and at funerals. You know what I mean? Not just parties and not just things. But, like, you know, my brother. I wrote, you know, when we wrote She Talks to Angels, I always have time and I'm always... [2:11:50] uh, [2:11:51] humbled by people's experiences with that song and addiction and things in their lives, whether it's them, family member, loss, [2:12:00] uh... [2:12:02] Or people that have overcome things. You know what I mean? And that we just wrote that song one day when we were kids. And that means so much to people. I mean, there's a lot of songs like that in our repertoire that people come up to. I mean, really funny things sometimes. People will pick some song. I'm like, that was your wedding song? I'm like, okay. That's weird. Jealous? Or more obscure, even. Really? You know, like some weird, like, this song called Nonfiction. Like, we walked down the aisle to nonfiction. I'm like, nonfiction? Really? [2:12:32] Well, that's it. You're giving out. [2:12:37] With music, it's an art form that changes people's feeling. [2:12:41] When you hear a great song, it literally gives you energy. Completely. It's a drug. It really is. It's like an audio. And I'm exactly the same. I mean, it's maddening to be with me because this is the only time during this day that I don't have music on. You know what I mean?

[2:13:11] And blues and rock and roll and jazz and punk and R&B. [2:13:14] were... [2:13:15] Whatever, but a lot. Yeah. Well, that means you're doing the right thing, right? You really love it. I also need it, like you just said, not only just for energy, but for some soulful... [2:13:29] connection as well. Yeah. And, you know, when... [2:13:34] Especially when I was younger, we all suffer from depression, and some people have a more acute disease. [2:13:42] relationships with that. Um, [2:13:45] But... [2:13:46] If there's a certain melancholy that comes over me, there's only some artist that I can sail across that... [2:13:56] deep water with. You know what I mean? To kind of assure me that I'm not the only one. We're not the only ones that feel this way. We're not the only... [2:14:05] ones that [2:14:09] You know, life is life is that is what it is. You know what I mean? Like you're not no matter how rich you are, no matter how successful you are, no matter who you are, you still have to deal with the ups and downs of it. Absolutely. And I think adversity is the thing that really makes us who we are. [2:14:26] It's one thing as being a father. I'm like, I'm not afraid of the adversity my kids face. As a matter of fact, that's what I really want to get to. Because what makes us who we are is how we deal with adversity. And if you don't deal with any adversity, it's not good. And if you push it under the table or this or that. Avoid it. Yeah, then where are you? You're lost. And these things are cliches. But the greatest lessons are the hardest ones.

[2:14:56] Those are the ones that stick to you the most. Yes, and those are the ones that make you grow. [2:15:00] I have a great friend who's in a fantastic band. They just opened for us. We've been friends. They called, his name is Jim Jones. Jim Jones. [2:15:08] This band's called the Jim Jones All-Stars. He was in a band called The Hypnotics. [2:15:14] And we've known each other for 30 years, and he went through really deep heroin addiction in the 90s and... [2:15:22] Uh... [2:15:24] And it's funny to talk to him... [2:15:26] And I love him. But he's like, yeah, man, it was a lesson. You know what I mean? I'm like, that's a fucking tough lesson. And I'm happy you're still here to talk about it. But I love his attitude. You know what I mean? I love that spirit in people. You know what I mean? That it didn't, you know... [2:15:45] I learned from this. [2:15:47] And I've moved on from this and I don't have any regrets. I don't have any resentment towards this or anger towards about it. And it's no one's doing but my own. That responsibility to take responsibility for stuff, you know, is a big and that's that's important. And I think we see a lot of that gone away. You know what I mean? With people. Yeah. [2:16:10] And every story is different, you know what I mean? And not everything is the same. [2:16:16] What is real and what isn't real between there, that's for everyone to figure out, for people. Yeah. But the fact that that can be captured in a song and, like you said, sort of carry you through these bad moments where you realize other people are experiencing...

[2:16:31] Grief, hardship, depression, darkness... [2:16:35] terrible thoughts of loss, [2:16:37] And that's the reason why those songs are so popular. It's not like people want to suffer. No, there's something they're resonating with. And anger is a part of that, too. You know what I mean? And it's funny. With the newer music, I'm like, you guys... The world looks pretty shitty. Aren't you guys pissed a little bit? Or are you just like, no, I'm just going to get some likes. And my pants fit right. And my hair is good. I'm like, okay. I get pop music is light sometimes. But I would like for the... [2:17:07] young people to... [2:17:08] I'd like to see in the art a little more... [2:17:12] anger or i'd like to see more rock you know it's like when i'm looking at music coming up today there's a great absence of strong new rock bands that that seem like rock bands from the past guitar bass yes yes i mean god damn it people still love that music what the fuck is going on yeah you go see acdc there at a fucking stadium yeah you go see metallica there's a stadium yes so people are going so what the fuck happened i mean where is everybody i mean i think it's [2:17:42] It's definitely there. [2:17:44] It's, again, I think people for some reason think the music business is supposed to be the gauge. They're just like any other fucking salesman. They always have been. Just because one salesman had a cool taste and one didn't, don't kid yourself. They're not artists. They're salesmen.

[2:18:04] And there's cool people and not cool people, but they're not, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, like, now we live in a time, and you see it a lot. You see people making comments about it in our industry, right? [2:18:17] About how you're just following. Whereas before, yeah, you had things that were popular, but someone, you know... [2:18:24] Someone said fuck, signed the Stooges. Yeah. [2:18:28] Yeah. You know, Danny Fields did that. But he had great taste. But he was still a record company guy, the business side of it. Someone, you know what I mean, someone said, sign Susie and the Banshees or whatever. Someone said, dude, I mean, Bob Dylan. You didn't know when they made first Bob Dylan record that he'd be 83 years old, Bob Dylan. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people said, don't sign him. He's not marketable. He's not... [2:18:55] commercial. [2:18:57] And... [2:18:58] That's my thing. I'm looking for still that maverick spirit or somebody who does have the wherewithal and or vision to see that maybe something is a little bit outside the box still could have not just – it would have importance – [2:19:16] And it can be popular as well. Well, of course. And it always has been that way. The idea that everyone has a short attention span now and we're interested in frivolous things. No, that's not true. That's just still junk food. It's still junk food. Right. And there's still people that like a nice meal. [2:19:32] I'm glad you're out there, dude. Thanks, man. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. It was super fun. I really enjoyed talking to you. We got to talk about a lot of weird stuff. Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Cheers. Bye, everybody.