#2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

[00:00] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Yep. All right. Very nice to meet you, man. You too. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And thanks for doing this work because you want to talk about a subject that's confused so many people. Is the sun good for you? Is the sun killing you? Why does it give you vitamin D if it's bad for you? Why? [00:27] Why do people get skin cancer if it's good for you? [00:30] Yeah, it's super complicated, and the messaging has not sort of admitted that, and that was, yeah, a big impetus for the book. What was your opinion of Sun Exposure before you started writing this? So I had, you know, I had inherited the conventional wisdom from the institutions that – [00:49] It was really bad. At the same time, I will admit that my instincts – [00:54] where that... [00:55] Maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading me to believe, because whenever I was in the sun, I felt good. And I live in Vermont. By the time winter was reaching like month six, I felt bad. Right. Right. So it's like, there's more here than we're being told. [01:10] Yeah, that was my wife's opinion. She's like, the sun can't be bad. It always feels good when you go out there. I'm like, I don't know. It's a little more complicated than that, but that is the instinct. Like, it feels great when you're in the sun. Like, ah. It's like your body wants it. Your body wants it. I mean, we now know that it literally – [01:28] triggers the release of opiates in the brain.

[01:30] Sunlight. [01:31] So... [01:32] Your body wants it, and your body rewards you when you get it. So what is the issue? Well, let's go back to the beginning. So you had this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer, and sunscreen is good. You need to wear sunscreen. Stay out of the sun. So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion? So it really started for me like seven or eight years ago. I was on this science journalism fellowship, so I was just doing research. [02:02] brain. Other studies showing that when light hits skin, [02:06] Um... [02:07] cognition actually improves. Like your metabolism improves. [02:10] cranks up a little bit. [02:12] when the body feels sunlight coming in. And I thought, that's interesting, that's all good stuff. Then I came across a couple other studies that seemed to indicate [02:23] that sunlight could lower blood pressure, which was really interesting. So then I still had the sense... [02:29] sunlight bad, right? So then I remember just, like, Googling, like, so how much does sunlight, like, [02:35] shorten your lifespan. And, like, the punchline is... [02:39] Sunlight. [02:40] seems to extend your lifespan. So when I hit that, I was like, [02:43] Why are we not hearing this? So that was the beginning. And so... [02:47] So what is the problem? What is the issue with sunlight? When you think about skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer? Are we completely aware of that? Yeah. [03:00] It's more complicated than we thought. So Sunlight does...

[03:04] increase your risk of skin cancer. But [03:07] depending on the type of skin cancer you're talking about, it's not necessarily like a linear relationship. [03:13] so [03:14] Yes, in general. [03:15] Too much sun. [03:17] Increases your risk of skin cancer. But yeah, the question is, what are the confounding factors? How important is skin cancer compared to these other things? If sunlight reduces your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against... [03:28] the risk of skin cancer. So... [03:32] It's not the type of thing that can be done in a 30-second PSA. [03:37] Right. So – [03:39] So sun cancer that does cause skin cancer, excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer, what is causing it? Why is it happening? So ultraviolet light, which is the most energy intense part of the solar spectrum. [03:53] When those photons of light [03:56] hit. [03:56] your skin, they go inside, right? We absorb all [04:01] wavelengths of light to [04:02] a greater or lesser degree. And that super high energy ultraviolet light [04:07] If it hits a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule, and then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer. [04:14] Then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer by creating what are called reactive oxygen species, which are free radicals, basically. [04:23] So it energizes these atoms that start to steal electrons from other atoms and cause a little chain reaction, which is what a free radical is. So ultraviolet light can increase your free radicals.

[04:36] and it can directly damage [04:38] DNA. [04:39] So that's why it can cause skin cancer. So it was basically learning that one fact back in the 40s and 50s, [04:46] that made scientists start to say, uh-oh, [04:50] Light skin cancer. [04:52] Maybe we should think about how much sun we're getting. But this wasn't universally accepted, right? There were some people that even back then thought that sun exposure was very healthy for you. Like when did we figure out that sun causes the body to produce vitamin D? Yeah, that was an important part. And it's a big part of the story, I think, because that was really back in the 20s that we figured that out. [05:13] And then even a little earlier, we realized that, um, [05:16] sunlight could prevent rickets. [05:19] Rickets? Yeah, so Rickets is a soft bone disease. [05:24] get enough calcium in your bones when you're a kid, when you're a baby, [05:28] You get soft bones. You get rickets. [05:31] really bad disease. And in the Industrial Revolution, kids started getting rickets, started getting rickets, [05:37] Farm kids never got rickets. Then suddenly kids are working in factories. They're living in cities that are choked with coal smog. [05:46] They're living in tenement buildings. They're never seeing the sun and they all start getting rickets and [05:50] late 1800s. Is nutrition a factor in that? [05:53] Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D. At first they thought maybe it was vitamin A, but it turned out that was how vitamin D was discovered. [06:02] was some doctors figured out that [06:05] it could solve rickets in kids. And then they figured out,

[06:08] that if sun hit skin, that's how we made vitamin D. [06:12] How did they figure that out? They tested some tests on dogs. Actually, one of the guys figured it out. He had a hunch that that's what it was. They noticed that kids in the country wouldn't get rickets and kids in the city did get rickets. So like, I wonder if it's sunlight. So then a guy... [06:36] took dogs. [06:38] And this is, I think, Scotland. [06:40] stuck them in a [06:43] They actually thought it was dietary. He stuck them inside in this like little like warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is what everyone in Scotland ate at the time. [06:51] and [06:52] The dog's got rickets. [06:54] And he thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, okay, so something about diet, but then... [06:59] He got lucky because he had deprived the dogs of sunlight, and that's why they got rickets. So then eventually... [07:07] they realized that [07:09] um, [07:10] light hitting [07:12] cholesterol molecules in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D. So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol, but it takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA. [07:25] it actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule. [07:29] which allows it, it gives it some movement, and it flips around into a new form that's vitamin D. [07:35] So once I figure that out, [07:36] Then they're like, [07:38] Sun's really good for you. So we had this era in like the 20s, 30s and into the 40s.

[07:42] when everyone thought sun would cure everything. [07:45] And they went after it hard. Really? [07:49] Yeah. Like they, [07:51] Parents would send their kids up into the Alps in like the 20s to institutes for heliotherapy. Kids would ski around in their underwear, take classes in their underwear. There's awesome photos from this era. Like the instructors are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland teaching the kids. [08:08] And everyone looks really healthy, right? So... [08:11] There's kind of like this idea that [08:12] you couldn't get too much light. So people are literally burning themselves on purpose for help. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. We all like to find ways to save ourselves some time, like ordering out for dinner or meal prepping so you don't have to cook during the week. If you're a business owner looking to hire, a great time-saving hack is Zip Recruiter. Its newest feature lets you meet the most interested, qualified candidates first. [08:42] And it doesn't just let you meet candidates faster. You can hear why they're interested in their own words. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

[09:12] podcast drops you inside someone's biggest decision the kind of decision you can only make once with everything on the line what do you believe what do you want [09:24] And what would you risk to get it? [09:27] Find out. Tap to listen now to Snap Judgment from KQED on Spotify. [09:40] Is that the issue? Is burning a giant part of the issue? Yeah. So to give it away, now it looks like – [09:47] For melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer, it's... [09:51] associated with burning strongly, but not with, like, gentle, moderate, everyday sun exposure. So how much of a factor is skin type, like people that are pale or have freckles and red hair, blonde hair? Like, how much of a factor is that in skin cancer? And can they mitigate that by, like, gentle skin? [10:15] slow exposure, like a little bit here, a little bit there, and slowly build up. [10:20] Yeah, huge. Like, skin type is kind of everything. People who have really dark skin... [10:24] Basically, don't get sun-induced skin cancer. Almost never. [10:28] and [10:30] the uh... you know the authorities [10:33] don't tend to talk about that because they want things to be, they want to have like these one size fits all recommendations. But those recommendations to basically always avoid the sun, [10:41] are written for [10:42] the super fair people, especially if you have red hair.

[10:46] orange freckles, then you actually have a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight. So if you've got... [10:57] If you've got that phenotype, lots of moles... [11:00] Red hair. [11:01] Freckles. [11:02] You do have to be really careful. And you can only do so much. Like, you're not going to tan that much. [11:09] Anyway. [11:10] your melon is just different. [11:12] Everybody else. [11:13] Yeah, you're much less susceptible and you can tan [11:19] You know, you can make more melanin pretty easily through tanning. [11:21] I wonder... [11:23] What, if any, effect? Have you ever heard of that? I can't remember the name of the peptide, but there's a peptide that people are taking now that causes their body to generate melanin, and they get really dark. Yeah, yeah. [11:37] Yeah. It's really weird. Yeah, and I don't know what's going on there exactly. It seems like that peptide is maybe making you... [11:48] make your skin super sensitive, [11:51] Like you just absorb solar radiation really well then, but [11:55] not necessarily in a good way. And that can make you make tons of melanin to try to compensate. So I wonder, that peptide might be triggering [12:03] melanin [12:05] as a compensation mechanism, [12:07] for extra protection from sunlight. [12:09] Or maybe it's just making melanin happen, like, independently of the night. Did you put it into perplexity? All right, here it is. Um... [12:16] Melanotan, synthetic peptide analog of the naturally occurring hormone amelanocyte, stimulating hormone, stimulates the body's melanocytes to produce melanin resulting in a dark tan. It's largely unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes.

[12:43] and carry significant health risks or what's the risks uh it's not approved by the fda [12:49] for cosmetic use and unregulated market means purity. Okay, but that's unregulated. [12:54] Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles, and hyperpigmentation, concerns that could mask or accelerate the development of melanoma, [13:06] . [13:07] What is this? Potentially damaging erections. What? Why the erections? Oh, that's right. This apparently gives people raging erections. Why? Prolonged, painful, and potentially damaging erections. Damaging. Imagine you get an erection that goes so hard you redline the penis. [13:28] Medical and dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of melanotan [13:37] Proved, there are no clinically established safe dosages. [13:41] Well, weird, because that, so alpha MSH, the thing that it is mimicking, is that's how your body makes melanin. That's how your body's supposed to do it. You got to see the before and afters because they're kind of bonkers. [13:54] I've seen some people get super, well, the problem is it's Instagram. You never know what's real. That guy got a little tan. Let's see if there's any. Okay, look how pale that. See, but that's not. [14:06] How do we know if that's real? It's just like there's a light on them. [14:08] Right. And then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last picture. That's the best before and after photos I've seen. Is there that one right there? The low? No, the one. Yeah, that one. Look at that guy.

[14:21] Well, you know, it's a look. It's an interesting look. He injected himself with unregulated tanning peptide melanotan 2. Click on that. Seems like a joke a little bit. No, no, this guy. This is the guy that I saw online. This guy's he's the test rabbit. [14:38] Thank you. [14:39] This dude went hard. [14:40] Did he get an erection too? [14:43] Yeah, he died from that. I don't know. [14:46] So his before and afters. [14:49] So let's see what is... [14:51] He just, okay. [14:54] Yeah, he just got darker and darker and darker. But I wonder if, like... [14:58] I understand that it's unregulated, but if it was regulated and this is something they're trying to work with right now with peptides and make them – see, the photo is dark though. I mean that's like a shitty iPhone 1 camera. [15:13] That's crazy. This is nuts. [15:17] Thank you. [15:18] There's something going on there. [15:19] Like, you know what it looks like? It looks like those bodybuilder guys who use that ink, that dye on their skin to make themselves darker so their muscles pop out more. So here's better. Tanning log photos. These are better photos. [15:33] That's crazy. [15:35] But I wonder if that offers skin protection. It would definitely offer skin protection. I mean, if it's melanin, it's definitely... I mean, that guy can probably... [15:45] be outside all day. Yeah. So that's the question. Is that available to someone who's pale? [15:51] And if someone is pale, see if you can find an example of someone who's pale who took it.

[15:59] Because you would think like, oh, well, maybe that maybe just we need to do studies and figure out what the dosage is and figure out how to activate that aspect of it. [16:07] melanin clearly protects you from skin cancer. Like, if you have super dark skin, like, you know, African ancestry... [16:16] you're blocking, like your melanin is absorbing like 97, 98% of the UV rays. It's super effective. But didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer? He did. That's pretty crazy. Okay, this is one. [16:29] Wow. [16:30] It looks like the same person. [16:33] Hard to tell without the fish. Same mold. Yeah, it looks like the same mold. [16:37] That looks... [16:38] pretty good. [16:40] But I would just also wouldn't if you were trying to sell some of this stuff and maybe nefarious ways, this would be an easy one to market. [16:47] Tough. [16:49] and you know [16:50] Definitely. [16:51] Look, this is part of the unregulated market problem. [16:54] We don't know. And also, you know, you're getting 99 percent bro science on this stuff. You know, like what screams bro science screams it from the top of the hills. [17:08] What legitimate scientist is out there injecting himself with melanotan? [17:13] But the other thing is, if you do it naturally, right, if you just get a little sun every day and slowly build up, you're not just making melanin. You're also... [17:20] increasing your body's damage repair system like you have all these like nucleotide excision repair things that fix your dna and fix cells that have gotten screwed up

[17:30] and [17:32] that will also ramp up. [17:33] every day. And it's not just sunlight, like exercise, same thing. Like anything that [17:40] that like [17:41] stresses the body a little bit. It's like hormesis, right? So all those things are going to cause your damage repair system to crank up. [17:48] and be ready. So, [17:50] You could probably want those to, like the melanin and the damage repair to... [17:54] to like go up together. Right. So you would want to, if, if let's say studies were done, let's say we found what the effective and safe dose is and how to administer it. You would want to do it along with sun exposure slowly to try to ramp up your body's ability. I had a note on this. Uh, this happened 14 years ago. [18:14] Wow. Which is strange. [18:16] Here's some of the side effects he said, but he also said he's pretty much impervious to UV at this point. Increased libido. Didn't see that one much either. He said he didn't get it. [18:26] Okay, sides are decreased appetite, very mild nausea, more for some, none for me, decreased libido, increased libido. He said it didn't see that one much either. Some get facial flushing like a niacin dose, never got that either. And the most strange thing is that it feels really good to stretch, like when you first wake up. Interesting. [18:46] Huh. [18:48] Um... [18:50] Did you do it for the skin coloring? Yes, I did it for the skin coloring. I'm pretty much impervious to UV at this point. I have faded about 25% since returning from Florida January 35th. We'll be dosing again probably in March. Is this guy still alive? That's my question. 14 years. What is that? Click on that link where his profile. Okay.

[19:09] Let's see if Homeboy's alive. Let's see where this takes us. Right. He's not. Is this Reddit? It's a year ago. He's commenting. I never did it subtle. [19:19] Okay, so a year ago he's still alive, or someone has taken over his account. [19:25] In theory, you could use an old-school quartz tanning lamp. [19:28] You could tan with it. And he's in a weird Reddit there, so we've got to stop looking. Why? I mean, this is not for the show, but he's in a weird... [19:36] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's why I was afraid to go that way. That's a problem. Well, only crazy people are willing to try something like that. Do you remember that there was a guy, God, I think it was on Oprah or one of those shows, where he was taking – [19:52] Was it... [19:53] Silver. Yeah, colloidal silver. That's right, colloidal silver. And his whole skin turned blue permanently like a Smurf. Yeah. Poor guy. Yeah. And he wound up dying. [20:04] Yeah. And how did it kill him? I don't know if it killed him, but I believe he died young. That's homeboy. Not good. Yeah. [20:13] Yeah. That's just not a good look. You would think you'd start turning a little blue and you'd go, hey, maybe I need to back off this colloidal silver. Poffice Wharf dies. Yeah. [20:24] I mean, what the fuck, dude? [20:26] Thank you. [20:27] That guy, I mean, maybe he could have gotten some melanotan and evened that out. [20:31] It's just been a nice... [20:32] Chocolate. [20:33] You know, like a bluish chocolate. [20:36] I mean, he looks delicious. I'll say that. Yeah, this is our griot.

[20:42] are [20:43] Argyria? Argyria, the rare disease that turns people... [20:46] Blue. Caused by a buildup of silver in the body, which discolors the skin. Wow. [20:52] Thank you. [20:53] 2013. [20:55] He died from unrelated causes. [20:58] Whatever that means. [21:00] I mean, anybody's taking that much colloidal silver, you're probably making a lot of other mistakes. I mean, yeah. You're a risky dude. [21:06] There's so many options. This episode is brought to you by Ketone IQ. [21:13] Here's something cool. Ketone IQ is giving five lucky listeners the chance to win custom autographed gloves signed by John Bones Jones, the GOAT, the absolute legend of MMA. [21:27] But first, you know, I've been studying ketones for years. The U.S. military spent years researching one question. What is the best fuel you can give the brain? They landed on ketones, your brain's natural super fuel. The guys at Ketone IQ helped bring it to market and make it accessible. And I'm telling you, this stuff is great. My brain works on another level when I take it. There's never been a better time to try it out yourself. [21:57] You get 30% off and you're automatically entered to win a pair of custom MMA gloves. [22:03] Signed by Ketone IQ co-owner John Bones Jones and gold medal wrestler Gable Stevenson.

[22:12] So go to ketone.com/rogan today, claim 30% off your first order, and enter to win some autographed gloves. Back to Bob Marley. He did die of skin cancer, and that confuses a lot of people. So he had melanoma on his toe, and that was a kind of... [22:33] melanoma that's not caused [22:35] By the sun. [22:36] And everybody gets it, no matter, you know, what race you are, everybody gets it at [22:41] at the same rate, which is quite uncommon. They know it's not caused by the sun. [22:48] but [22:50] it complicates things for people because people are like, [22:53] I got melanoma on my toe and they think it's from the sun. And they're like, how did that happen? Right? Uh, like, [22:59] what's melanoma doing on there? But so... [23:02] Not all melanomas are... [23:05] caused by the sun. [23:08] There's... [23:09] you know, most probably are, but it gets really weird with melanoma. Um, it's, [23:15] associated with burning with like intermittent sun exposure. Like you work in an office all year and then you go to Cancun and get fried. That's a pretty good recipe for melanoma. Um, [23:26] History of sunburns also will double your risk. [23:29] Chronic exposure where you have an outdoor job every day and [23:33] Lower than average risk of melanoma. Really? Yeah, so it gets weird. Like landscapers. Landscapers have... Outdoor workers have fewer... [23:40] have a lower incidence of melanoma than office workers.

[23:43] Wow. And we don't hear that. No, no. I mean, I was looking at Instagram the other day and some poor guy had this – [23:55] I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer, and they had to take a graft, and it was on his nose, so it was like a flap of skin was almost covering over his eye. And his message was, wear sunscreen. This is what happened to me. Well, so, I mean, yeah. So I don't want to downplay skin cancer because it sucks when you get it. They have to cut off a hunk of your ear or something. That definitely sucks. Even if it's not life-threatening, it sucks. Yeah. So... [24:24] But that's generally from overexposure. [24:30] Burning. Burning. All the experts I've spoken with said don't burn. Right. Burning is the one that people always say that it's not just burning. It's burning causes damage that starts to appear years later. [24:43] Yeah, and they're dialing in on that more and more. It can start [24:47] Like burns during childhood is actually the highest association for melanoma. Really? Don't burn when you're a kid so we're all screwed. Oh, that sucks. That sucks because I fucking cooked myself as a kid. Same here. I grew up in Florida. Fried, you know. Well, when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, you know, you wanted to get a tan, especially when I lived in Boston. It was cold as shit in the winter when it got warm. You know, you're a Vermont car. Yeah. You got out there like, ah, put baby oil on. We fried. Totally.

[25:17] those Johnson baby oil ads from like the 60s and 70s. Oh my God. [25:21] Yeah, it was basically cooking lube. Totally. Yeah, it just helped you cook better. But you remember George Hamilton, like the actor, Mr. Tan? Yeah. He was all about that. Just the other day, I was like... [25:35] How's he doing? [25:36] 87 and ridiculously healthy right now. Really? Yeah, he's going strong. Yeah, I met that guy. He did an episode of News Radio once. Yeah, he was tan as fuck. [25:45] Yeah, that was his thing. That was his thing. It became, yeah, what he was known for. And he's still going. So he's still tan? Yeah, you should see him. He looks great. What does he look like? Pull a photo of George Hamilton. [25:57] I mean, great for an 87-year-old. Yeah. Look at him. Still tan. Yeah. [26:01] How does he... And a shiny. What a weird thing to be known for. [26:05] He's the guy who gets tan. You know what I'm saying? I mean, try to remember a role that he played. [26:13] That's true. I think he was Dracula in some bad 1970s comedy. [26:18] Look at that. That's a tan right there. Right. So how was he getting it, though? Like, I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people used tanning beds, especially in the wintertime. [26:28] And they still do. Those are actually on the rise. And they seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure. There you go. That's how we did it. Ah, look. He's got a reflectotan... [26:38] thing. [26:39] So he's just out there getting sunlight all the time. [26:42] And he didn't look bad. [26:44] That's, you know, that's a weird one, right?

[26:49] He claims he's never had skin cancer, I think. Well, he probably was doing it so often. [26:54] that his body was prepared for it, right? Look at that photo of him with that lady. [26:58] In the corner. Yeah, look at that. [27:01] That's nuts. See, that's the thing. I think... [27:05] like [27:06] If you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous. Because, you know. [27:17] Living Things have been working on this for... [27:20] 500 million years. They get hammered by the sun every day and they've got to deal with it. It seems like [27:28] when your skin is totally unprepared. [27:31] and you shock it with a massive dose that it's not ready for. [27:37] then you're in trouble. That's the kind of thing that triggers trouble. [27:41] Was there any pushback on this research? Like when you first started... [27:46] examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits. Were any dermatologists saying, hey, this is dangerous information, you shouldn't say this? Hell yeah. I've been denounced multiple times by the American Academy of Dermatology, like officially. They send an official letter when I write an article and they say... [28:04] Thank you. [28:05] Nobody should be getting any sun exposure. [28:08] That's their opinion. No one should be getting any sun exposure, regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D. No sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or clothing. Wow. And if that makes you vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what needs to change.

[28:27] Because those pills haven't panned out in tests. They don't work like Natural D does for whatever reason. [28:32] Really? Yeah, they don't work at all. What do you mean? [28:37] Everyone thought, like back in the 80s, 90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that people who naturally had... [28:46] lower [28:47] amounts of vitamin D in their blood. [28:49] had [28:50] higher rates of all like the classic chronic diseases. So I started thinking, okay, vitamin D, it's like magic, [28:56] pill almost. It'll cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D. So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still like the number one supplement in the world. I take it. [29:08] uh... [29:09] So then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. [29:13] Huge, huge clinical trials, tens of thousands of people, follow-ups that went for many years. [29:19] none of them showed a benefit. [29:21] No benefit in terms of your immune response? No benefit for it. [29:25] Any condition. Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. So I don't – I mean there are a bunch of different – Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective. You need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium, and I think there might be another one. [29:44] See, put that into perplexity, please. [29:47] See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be taken with? Because I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones. And that together they have a sort of a synergistic effect. Yeah, that –

[30:00] That could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of things like that. Like zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it with quercetin. Yeah. [30:14] Well, one thing, D, you know, the way it naturally comes into the skin, and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds. Right. And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things. But D from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it. For sure. Like the best way to get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way, is through sun exposure. Yeah. Like that's how the design is supposed to work. Perplexity says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, builds strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function. [30:44] It contains some fat and often paired with calcium for bone health. [30:50] Um... [30:51] So please put in what are the benefits of vitamin D taken with K2 and magnesium? [30:59] See if it says that. [31:00] Because this is what my doctor, who is a vitamin specialist. [31:06] recommends. [31:08] benefits when taken with K2 and magnesium. [31:15] Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium. Interesting. D helps you absorb it. Magnesium helps activate D and K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries. Okay.

[31:41] D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function. Magnesium required to activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes. K2 activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health. [32:05] Potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin D use. [32:14] Okay. [32:15] So. [32:16] the doctor is correct. So maybe that's the problem, is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium... [32:25] Didn't have K2. Yeah. I'd be curious if – [32:30] there was an effect on disease incidents for that combination. I don't know. Because the D on its own, yeah, it didn't show... [32:39] effect. But sun exposure. Let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own have any health benefits? [32:48] Let's see what it says to that. [32:49] Because I'd never heard that, that D on its own was not effective at all. I just heard that it was minimally effective, that you had to take it with other... It seems like it only helps people who have... [33:00] who are really deficient. Like if you're super low, like below like 60 nanograms per milliliter, [33:06] then probably it's a good idea. But, like, for people who already had, like, at least 20 nanograms per milliliter, it didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates. I'll answer it the way you're looking for it. It says, yes, vitamin D on its own has several well-proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity. Just like a general answer here.

[33:25] Huh. [33:27] bone strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate... [33:33] What's that? I didn't. I missed the word own. Taken on it. [33:36] On its own. [33:38] I'll try why the answer was weird. [33:40] That's all it's saying. [33:42] Yes, as clear, proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and correcting deficiency. Yeah, so that's going to be for people who have super low levels? Mm-hmm. [33:51] Preventing rickets. There it is. Yeah. So they had thought that it might reduce incidence of all these other diseases based on what they're seeing for people who naturally had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah. [34:03] And it didn't. So then... Wait a minute, people who had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah, because your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct meter of how much sun exposure. Right, but this is a natural level. You're not talking about supplementation. Right, right. Okay. So that was why people who... [34:20] had high levels of D without supplementation, have lower rates of all, like every disease you can think of. Right. So the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels... [34:30] would have the same effect. [34:32] And it didn't. Like New England Journal of Medicine did a... [34:35] I actually did an editorial in 2022 saying, stop prescribing D, it doesn't work. [34:42] God, that seems... [34:45] incorrect though because if you're taking it with magnesium and k2 it seems that they do work synergistically and there seems to be proven health benefits that one of the problems i think is like

[34:56] I think people generally – [34:59] want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason. Mm-hmm. [35:06] It's kind of a weird thing. Like, they want to dismiss it. Like, I had a doctor once who told me, don't bother taking vitamins. Just eat a balanced diet. And I was like... [35:16] Look at you. Guy looked like shit. He didn't look as good as you, right? He looked terrible. Doctors, yeah, I'm amazed how... [35:23] poor what poor health they generally like seem to i can't take it i mean it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when well just he looked terrible yeah and he was telling me that i just need a healthy diet and i'm like okay i do have a healthy diet but also i feel different when i take vitamins and my blood work reflects that yeah i noticed that when i was i started going to all the conferences of the sun researchers and they're all in like the basements of hotels and [35:53] Those guys all are as pacey as it gets. Like, do none of you guys, like, you know, practice what you preach? Really? How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge, with, I mean, obviously, there's much more to learn. We're still confused about how we interact with our environment. [36:10] Yeah, absolutely. 100%. With Sun, which seems to be like... [36:15] It's there. It's everywhere. It's like you're always in the sun in normal and in the normal world environment where you outside of cities and all that stuff. That's it seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun.

[36:30] Yeah, and light period, like light of all kinds. Like, it seems like there's the sense in biology that light didn't matter. It's like just ephemeral, which, you know, the quantum physicists 100 years ago, [36:42] understood that light and matter are just like two halves of the same coin, right? And that light [36:47] totally affects the behavior molecules. [36:49] we're made of molecules, light's gonna matter. So I actually think, like that's where I eventually got to with the book, I was like, [36:56] we need to think about our light diets and our lightscapes that we're surrounding ourselves with more seriously than we have. Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data. [37:08] So what... [37:09] did these dermatologists have to say about the data if they're denouncing you and they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to, the things you're saying are dangerous, like, but you're talking about data. So I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that. $47,000. That's what the average engine customer saves on business travel every year. That's a 26% savings, all with no booking fees, up to 70% off hotels, zero booking [37:39] to start total control find a hotel that meets your team's complex needs did we say no fees we did that's engine teams travel spend managed get started at engine.com savings right and what i think we just need to have a conversation about the data and you know there's no like right answer ahead of time but they don't uh like their job is to prevent skin cancer so

[38:06] If that's your only job, [38:08] you're going to tell people stay out of the sunlight. Forever. Forever, right? And no one can call you on that. No one can say, hey, like, I got skin cancer. It's your fault. Right. But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure? And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer in terms of numbers? It's number one, 20 million deaths a year, cardio. [38:32] So anything that moves the needle on that is... [38:35] awesome you know. [38:36] And it does. [38:37] And it seems to. Like all the studies show it does. [38:40] But they're all observational studies, right? You look at populations, you're like, oh, these people have more sun exposure, [38:46] Lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease. But then, you know. [38:51] The other side will say... [38:53] you know. [38:54] correlation does not prove causation. Like prove, show us that it's, you know, do your giant clinical study. [39:01] where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer. [39:04] Which is not going to happen. Right. Yeah. But it's like... [39:08] Are they willing to have a conversation with you? They're not willing to. They don't want to look outside of the sun, right? [39:15] And, uh... [39:17] skin cancer question. Like, they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits that are outside of their field. [39:25] So there's gotta be somebody out there who can be the generalist, who can think about it holistically. [39:30] That seems so ignorant. [39:32] It's this... [39:34] Data science now? Like, science is, you know, like a field of micro-specialties. Would you like some coffee? Yeah, I'll take a little. That looks good when you're pouring it. That was a very shiny press you've got there. Cheers, sir. Cheers.

[39:50] . [39:50] Is coffee good for you? [39:51] Coffee is awesome. Coffee is shockingly good for you. Talk to me. Let's go. It is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you. I've been... [40:01] Startled by the power of the evidence. Yeah. I've read both. I've read It's Bad for You, and I dismissed it because I'm biased. And I love coffee. [40:18] It just tastes too good. It feels too good. [40:22] I like it. But I've read a lot of benefits about it. I think it's the best possible supplement. Really? You think of it as a supplement? And I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know? Yeah. [40:38] And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself? Is it the coffee bean? You know, I mean, caffeine – [40:45] I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing. [40:49] because... [40:49] You know, like tea doesn't seem to quite like deliver the goods like like coffee does. No. [40:55] But caffeine is actually... [40:57] the plants are making it to kill bugs. Right. Right. Because it makes the bugs mitochondria run out of control and they basically like blow up. Um, [41:06] It does that to us, but we have these other, like, like... [41:09] governors that come in and slow down that ramp up. So we get the nice ramp up without the explosion. [41:15] So it's good. So it makes – you know, we produce –

[41:20] energy more efficiently. [41:22] with less wear and tear. [41:24] That's all I need to hear. [41:25] I'm in. I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote. [41:35] laid off coffee for I think three or four months as an experiment. And then he had a cup of coffee and he said it was like taking a psychedelic. [41:43] He said, "I just felt so amazing." The effect was so profound. He said, "I really wanted to do it only that way, where I only take it very rarely." But then I fell right back into my own ways. He went right back. Yeah. I remember that article. It was great. And also, he said, "None of the caffeine researchers touch the stuff." I'm like, "That's not good." But yeah, he went right back to it. And I think he's a... [42:10] Proud coffee drinker. Yeah, he is. He went right back to it. But so have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you? [42:20] No, but I'd like to actually. I think. Are they willing or have they avoided them? [42:25] They have so far really avoided. They just say... [42:29] You know, we're not ready to look at any of that research. God, that's so weird. I think it's going to change. I think actually... [42:36] Thank you. [42:37] Like I said, I think light medicine is actually going to become... [42:41] very important in the next 10, 20 years. And dermatologists are kind of positioned to be, like, the leaders on that stuff because, like... [42:48] skin... [42:50] is the primary like interface with light for our bodies. And, you know, they should be experts on all this. You know, red light therapy is a big thing now. And dermatologists are doing that.

[43:00] even though the evidence isn't great for that. But I think there's probably something there. [43:05] But they should basically, [43:07] I think they need to be thinking more about [43:09] all these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to [43:13] work them into [43:15] like regular like programs. I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening, but I've essentially completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy. Wow. Yeah. Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like I don't need reading glasses anymore. [43:32] I've been using a red light bed for about two years now. And from the time I started using it, within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brekka was on the podcast and he explained it to me. And so I went out and bought one of these really expensive – it's like a tanning bed. This is a thing you lie in. And I do it three times a week for 20 minutes. So all over? [43:50] Yep. [43:51] Yeah. [44:11] Yeah, for sure. And again, I think mitochondria are part of that answer. There's a guy at University College London, Glenn Jeffrey, who this is his whole field, optometry and red light. And he has shown in multiple different animals, including humans, that... [44:29] Red light improves mitochondrial function and improves vision.

[44:34] Yeah, I mean, I'm 58. And for me to be 56 and saying I'm fucked, I had these fucking things everywhere. I had these all these reading glasses, I had them all over my house. I gotten up to three X. These are the cheap Amazon ones. I had a nice pair, but I keep losing them. So I just went up and bought cheap ones. They seem to work. And it was just fine for looking at a computer, reading my emails, reading my phone. And I needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore. Like at all. [45:04] them anymore. My vision's not perfect. It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it's way better than it was when I was 56. [45:12] And, yeah, I think – so the – [45:17] The mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in the body. The eyes burn through energy. [45:25] like no other cells. 'Cause it's like, you know, it's kind of the toughest task. It's like, they gotta go super fast. So they, yeah, those mitochondria need to be [45:36] on top of their game, and it seems like red light. [45:39] benefits that in particular. It seems so closed-minded that these dermatologists aren't willing to say maybe we're looking at just insufficient amount of data, maybe we're looking at this wrong, maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits if it's done correctly. I just don't understand why they're not... If there's all this data, which clearly you show in your book, that there's a tremendous amount of data, why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

[46:06] You know, like, so there's this, like, saying attributed to Max Planck, who's this, like, [46:11] quantum physicists, science advances one funeral at a time. I think we got to let the old guard die off a little bit. But I guarantee there's a young generation coming in who's gonna [46:23] be really interested in light and how they can use it. Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now from actual researchers and people that have put in the time and put in the work and explored things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old guard are not correct. And the data seems to show that that's true. [46:43] Yeah, and it's fun. I mean, playing with light, it's super fun. So, like, this is a way you can, like, make your world a little bit richer is starting to think about this stuff. Well, it's also, like, don't you want to be informed? And if there's – if we do understand that it has an effect on mitochondria, and there is all this evidence that red light seems to have some benefits, like – [47:03] I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that. Well, I think that – and they won't object to the red. Some of them are using red light therapy because there's no risk of skin cancer for red. It's only the UV and maybe a little bit of the blue that – [47:20] contributes to skin cancer. So it's the UV where they get a little wigged out. [47:26] Yeah, but... [47:27] But even that, it seems like there's – like in your book, you show there's a tremendous amount of data. There's health benefits to it. So I just don't understand. And that data is – it's coming from all different other fields like immunology, cardiology. So –

[47:43] And, like, scientists are sort of increasingly, like, hesitant to trespass on their other domains. Right. You know, like, they're not going to walk across campus to the... [47:53] the other building anymore. [47:55] Yeah. That needs to change. Yeah, we've had those discussions too with scientists that are super frustrated, especially when they try to get interdisciplinary information. [48:04] groups together to study one particular thing and everyone's resisting because they have their own work that they're working on they don't want to get involved and it's like guys this is what you're here for there's not a lot of scientists you got to do your job because like you're the only ones that are doing it there's [48:22] Without you guys, we're fucked. And if you're out there relying on old, insufficient data – [48:29] Or, you know, you have this very... [48:31] small data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to sunlight. And so you just throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like you're doing the whole field a massive disservice. And the other part of it is that science, it's sort of very self-reinforcing. It's all grant-based, essentially. Like if you're a scientist, you want to do a study, you have to apply for a grant to get the money to do the study. And there's generally a handful of entities that are like handing out the grant money. And it's the old guys waiting to die. [49:01] who are going to approve what they think is the truth. They're going to fund the study. [49:06] that fits with what they already know about the world. [49:10] kind of crazy system where the only way you can get money to do a study is

[49:14] is if you're already telling them what they know. Right. Right. So it's very difficult to get funded to do something that goes against the grain. [49:20] Increasingly so. And that's a problem. [49:22] And so much of it is dependent upon the ego of the people that are at the top of the organization. Ego is definitely part of it. It's a giant part of it because if they've based their entire career on telling you one thing that turns out to be incorrect, they're very reluctant to correct themselves. [49:37] Yeah, there's not just a – it's very rare to find the individual who's well-known in the field and is eager to self-correct, you know. So have you had any conversations with any of these dermatologists? Yeah. [49:50] No, but I'd love to. Not one... [49:52] That seems crazy. Have you reached out to any of them? I have. I've reached out and I get the boilerplate. [49:58] Like, [50:00] We don't want anyone in the sun... [50:02] Take your D-pills. [50:03] It doesn't matter, and the one that really I think has got to change is the skin color question. [50:11] fine to go with the recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin. [50:18] But for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from sun-induced skin cancer, [50:24] and can benefit hugely from... [50:27] like things that will lower blood pressure and lower cardiovascular disease. [50:32] Like, it seems like you're not being fair to those people. Not only that, it makes you feel better. [50:36] which is very important just for sanity. [50:39] I mean, I think that gets underplayed. Like, mood and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right? Yeah. And there's just no question that sun exposure makes you happier. I spent a week with my friend Brian Callen and Steve Rinella in Alaska on Prince Edward's Island. And it rains there like 350 days a year. And we got rained on for the entire week. And then when I came back to L.A.,

[51:07] I was driving around and the sun was magnificent. It felt so good. I stood outside. I closed my eyes. I stretched my arms wide like I was just taking it all in. And I called my friend Steve up and I said, dude. [51:22] Because we were in the rain for like a week, I go, I'm in L.A. right now in the sun, and it feels amazing. I never felt the sun like this before. It's because like my body was saying, you didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take it in, and we're going to reward you with all these amazing endorphins and good feelings. If that was a drug, that drug that I took, like if depressed people could take whatever I felt when I was out in the sun after a week in the rain, they would take it every day. [51:52] It would change the world. I could feel like this all the time. [51:55] And it went away. It went away because L.A., it's sunny all day long, every day. Right, right. So eventually I got accustomed to it. But that feeling that I got after the week in the rain and coming back, just be like, ah. It was incredible. It was like a drug, an amazing drug, a happy drug. Yeah, it's an awesome drug. I felt it for sure. You know, I – [52:19] Especially like early spring. I leave Vermont and I like have something in LA. [52:23] I'm just like, [52:24] Like, [52:25] Why is everyone not just dancing on the streets? This feels so good. You know? But the problem is Los Angeles, they're so used to it. Yeah. They're so spoiled. Yeah. [52:34] Everyone there is so spoiled weather-wise. It's the perfect weather on Earth. It's incredible, especially if you live in Malibu where it –

[52:41] It barely even gets hot. So you're dealing with that cool ocean breeze, and it's sunny every day. You know, like, oh. [52:48] Yeah. But how about here? Do you end up spending a lot of time outside here? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I do. But I'm outdoors all the time. I work out outside. I do a lot of farmer's carries outside. I practice archery, so I shoot my bow outside every day. And I love it. I feel better. Even when it's hot out. I don't mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because of sauna use. I use the sauna every day. [53:13] I'm pretty religious about it. So my body's really acclimated to heat, so it doesn't really bother me that much. I just bring a big jug, a 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes, and I just drink that while I'm out there. So I shoot my bow for an hour and a half, two hours, and 105 degrees, and I'm fine. I love it. It feels good. I actually love that, too. Yeah. Like, as a kid in Florida, we'd play basketball after school for hours, or in summer, it would be, [53:40] 105 degrees and then you just kind of turn the hose you stick out in your mouth for quite a long time you know yeah i mean it feels great it's just you have to make sure you're not dehydrated and you have to make sure you don't burn that's that's kind of all it is yeah yeah exactly it's all it seems to be um but we do see like truckers that uh have you ever seen those you talk about that famous photo yeah that is a crazy photo crazy photo so what we're referring to is there's a [54:10] trucker and the left side of his face from the sun coming in from the window looks like he's 20 years older on his left side than it is on his right side it's like it's like special effects somebody melted the left side of his face what's that all about yeah there's the guy there he is that's yeah literally nuts yeah that's literally nuts like left side is just sloping off basically his left side looks like a hundred year old man truck driver face years behind the wheel driving

[54:40] limited to the left side of the face. So it's literally called truck driver face. [54:45] Yeah, so that photo and that study got used to scare the shit out of a lot of people, try to keep them out of the sun. Especially people that are vain and don't want that... [54:56] Fucked up, wrinkly face. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. You guys know I live a super busy lifestyle, so I need snacks that don't slow me down, and Paleo Valley is the perfect on-the-go snack. That's why I keep a couple beef sticks in my bag. Not just any beef sticks. Paleo Valley, 100% grass-fed beef and finished sticks. Because let me tell you, beef sticks are not all equal. Most on the market use preservatives and additives like encapsulated citric acid and lactic acid [55:26] keep them shelf stable, but not Paleo Valley. They naturally ferment their beef sticks to preserve freshness and flavor without using any chemicals or questionable ingredients. That natural fermentation even supports a healthy gut. No MSG, no gluten, no sugar, no additives, no junk, just clean, high quality beef. These are tender and perfectly seasoned, not dry or tough like most [55:56] Go to paleovalley.com slash rogan and use the code rogan. That's paleovalley.com slash rogan. Oh, that's crazy. Look at the difference between – wow, that's literally bananas. So what they're showing back and forth is they're just –

[56:11] taking the skin from the left side of the face and switching sides so you can see how much damage. [56:17] He's... [56:18] received on that side, the driver's side. Yeah, and so there's a couple of interesting things there. One, that is shocking, but [56:25] The question to ask is, [56:26] why doesn't every trucker look like that, right? Like, if that's the problem, why him? Because... [56:32] I've been driving a car for 45 years, and... [56:36] You know? [56:37] My face is... The same on the left as it is on the right. Yeah. Trying to hang it in there. But... [56:42] But the other thing is window glass, I think, is actually a really interesting problem to talk about. Yeah. Because window glass blocks UVB, but not UVA. And there's two different wavelengths of UV. The UVB is the super high energy one. UVA is a little bit lower. It's kind of on the way to blue. Yeah. [57:03] And they used to think back in the day that UVB was the only one that caused skin cancer. And those old sunscreens that we used in the 70s, 80s, [57:12] only blocked UVB. [57:13] window glass. [57:15] Blox UVB. [57:16] blocks only part of the UVA. So anytime you're driving or you're hanging out in a window in your house, [57:22] you're getting a bunch of UVA, you're not going to burn because UVB is the one that causes burning. [57:29] but you're still gonna get a bunch of UVA, which they figured out like in the 90s, [57:33] does cause skin cancer. Oh, wow. So [57:37] So sun through the windows is not as good as sun outside.

[57:42] It blocks the UVB, but... [57:45] The UVA comes through, but you'll never have a burn reaction because of it. But you might be getting damaged. Yeah. And so, like, in the U.S., [57:56] people get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the left side of their body. [58:01] In the UK, they get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the right side. Aha. Because they drive on the opposite side of the road. Yeah. [58:10] Window glass is slightly, slightly. It's like 52, 48. It's not not huge. OK, but it's statistically significant, statistically significant. Yeah. [58:18] Huh. So do you think it's this guy's particular genes? There must be something weird about that guy. Right. Well, how many instances of truck driver face do they have? I just Googled the condition and it's only him coming up in the photos. So this is the thing. One lady, but I don't, she clearly doesn't seem to have the same issue. There's a lot of truck drivers that have been doing it for 50 years. That's not the same thing. Oh, that's not real. Is that real? That's a different thing. She's got something wrong with her jaw. Oh. [58:49] Unilateral derma... [58:51] Dermatitis cancer. Oh, so she had some sort of cancer that made its way into her jaw? I would have assumed that more cases would pop up, but it's literally just him. So that's the thing. The real question is, what's up with that, dude? [59:04] Yeah, interesting. Here's a different truck. That's not the same. I don't think that's the same guy. No, it doesn't seem like the same person, but... [59:12] Might be.

[59:13] It's hard to say. It could be different lighting. But so the thing is, so those sunscreens – [59:19] that were acting kind of like window glass in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s before we got the broad spectrum sunscreens. [59:25] They're blocking the UVB. [59:27] So you weren't gonna ever burn. And that's what SPF actually measures, is how many more times you can be out in the sun without burning. So if you got, but it's based totally on UVB. [59:37] So if you've got SPF 30... [59:39] In theory, you can spend 30 times as long outside... [59:42] before you start to burn. [59:44] that's a long time, right? But all that time, UVA is just pouring into you and they now know that UVA is the one that probably is most... [59:54] likely to cause melanoma. Oh, that's crazy. Wow. So sunscreen. [59:59] Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's the stuff that's like beef tallow based and there's zinc in it. It's very white and obvious. You know, the spray stuff goes unclear. You can't even tell you have it on. Yeah. But it's very effective. But I'm always like super hesitant. I'm like, what's in that stuff that we're going to find out 15, 20 years from now? Like if it can block the sun. So it's a chemical and you're spraying this chemical on an organ, which is your skin. Yeah. [1:00:29] it. I'm like, what... [1:00:31] What's going on there? And they used to say, oh, no, no, it's not absorbed very much. And then the... [1:00:37] FDA, CDC did studies a few years ago and discovered that it's absorbed at very large amounts. Yes. It turns up at high doses or higher doses than they would like it to.

[1:00:50] in blood, breast milk, urine, you name it. It shows up. And what specifically turns up and what's dangerous about it? So they're suspected to be hormone disruptors, all those classic chemical filters like oxybenzone. Um, and, um, [1:01:04] Thank you. [1:01:04] There isn't much proof that they're... [1:01:09] dangerous in the amounts used. [1:01:10] But they definitely are absorbed at much higher rates than we thought. And the FDA has refused to approve them. [1:01:18] As safe. [1:01:19] um [1:01:20] Pending more testing. [1:01:22] And nobody's done the testing. But they're about to get phased out anyway. Just as of a couple months ago, [1:01:28] um [1:01:30] the, uh, [1:01:31] The government changed the rules and is going to let in, for the first time in 30 years, new ingredients. [1:01:38] which they've been using in Europe and Asia and Australia, [1:01:42] for decades, and the sunscreen companies have been asking to use them. [1:01:46] and haven't been allowed to, but they're finally going to get to use [1:01:50] like one of the main ones and what are these ingredients so it's called like bemotrisenol or something um there's another one that you see in europe called like um mexeril 400 but they're way better like basically u.s sunscreens are a generation behind everyone else because in the u.s sunscreens are regulated as over-the-counter drugs bemotrisenol yeah bemotrisenol highly effective broad spectrum uv filtered blocks both uva and uvb approved by fda is over-the-counter

[1:02:20] of 2026. Oh, wow. So this month. Yeah, it just happened. Celebrated for being highly photostable, doesn't break down the sun, transparent on the skin without leaving a white cast, and gentle on sensitive skin. [1:02:32] So this is RFK Jr. stuff. Yeah. This one looks really good. So this other stuff that has been in there, why didn't it get examined if Europe and Asia and all these other places were using these different safer versions? Yeah. They all bailed on it. [1:02:49] long ago because it was all we had. God damn it. That drives me crazy. So the FDA, in the U.S., sunscreens are regulated as drugs, counter-drugs. So you have to do all the safety testing if you want to get a new ingredient in. Everywhere else, they're just cosmetics, so you can use kind of whatever you want with [1:03:09] more minimal safety testing. So the companies wanted to use this stuff in the U.S. forever, but the FDA said, [1:03:16] sure, just do the testing, but they didn't want to do, it was too expensive to do the testing. They would have to test it on animals. They didn't want to get the blowback on that. There are a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to do it. Also, I think they're a little scared of what they might find. So anyway, so our sunscreens have [1:03:33] not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere. [1:03:37] both in terms of performance and maybe... [1:03:40] safety's [1:03:41] suspicions. So that's going to change by the end of this year. It's going to get better. Well, that's good. With the traditional sunscreen ingredients that we used to use, is there any negative health consequences of using them that they've shown? Like, is there any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently?

[1:03:58] Not that have been proven. Toxicologists are a little suspicious about some of them. They've definitely been shown to... [1:04:06] to mess up coral, right? Like people- Coral reefs, right? Yeah. That's one of the things they found after COVID, right? They used to think that it was the warming of the environment. This was one of the things that climate change people used to say. The climate change was destroying the coral reefs. And then it turns out, actually, it's all these people that have sunscreen all over their body, and they jump in the ocean, and they're essentially poisoning the reef. Yeah, I mean, it's all of the above, I'm pretty sure. [1:04:36] know, a bazillion snorkelers in the water can definitely mess up the car. Wasn't there some sort of a study that examined what happened to the reef after COVID? [1:04:45] There was one particular reef that was in this highly visited area where people would jump in. And they showed a massive increase – [1:04:56] in the reef after COVID. [1:04:59] Yeah, like, well, Hawaii banned use of those sunscreen. A bunch of places banned [1:05:05] than that style of sunscreen. [1:05:07] but [1:05:09] The – [1:05:10] But they don't really check your bags, though. Yeah, right. When they say banned, people are going to take it anyway. But it doesn't look like... I don't think it has much impact on... [1:05:22] on us unless you're using a ton of it, which of course now some people are. So it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah. There's been a bunch of studies that just looked at like lifespan and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, like positive or negative on lifespan.

[1:05:37] So it just might have – [1:05:39] some sort of an impact on hormonal function? Yeah, it could well. Um, [1:05:44] Endocrine disruption. Endocrine disruption. There's a guy named Graham Peasley at Notre Dame who... [1:05:50] found [1:05:52] that, uh, [1:05:53] many, many cosmetic products of all kinds [1:05:57] are actually contaminated with forever chemicals. [1:06:00] and [1:06:02] Even if they don't have it on the ingredients, like anything that's like water resistant or super smooth is... [1:06:10] quite [1:06:11] possibly going to have forever chemicals in it. And some of it is actually coming from the plastic containers because those get... [1:06:19] they basically get [1:06:21] like, fluorinated with this, like, fluorine gas before they get anything in them, which is supposed to make them, like... [1:06:28] a little smoother inside of the containers, but it turns out that actually leaks Forever Chemicals into the product, whatever's in there. Hmm. [1:06:36] That's what he found. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee when you're drinking it out of a paper cup. Very similar, yeah. Yeah. People don't realize, like, the paper cup is not capable of – [1:06:48] keeping that liquid, it would turn to mush. And the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is because there's essentially a condom [1:06:55] Like around the inside of the coffee cup. And Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside. And you're like, oh, no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do.

[1:07:09] And it's also like most coffee machines, like a giant percentage of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio, and I use that at home too. And I have one of those little Aero presses to make an individual cup of coffee. Yeah. [1:07:24] The plastic is a real problem, and heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles. You're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car. So now picture that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car cooking and leeching into the – [1:07:40] the material. Yuck. [1:07:43] Yeah, not good. People don't think of the skin as an organ. And I was explaining to a friend of mine the other day, he was using... [1:07:51] hand wash that that [1:07:53] fucking hand sanitizer stuff and i'm like man i don't think that's good for you i mean i think if you want to wash your hands you should just use soap and water and then i read this article about it like oh yeah that's a toxic chemical like hand sanitizer when you're using it every day you're essentially exposing your skin your organ to this like what what exactly is in hand sanitizer and is it bad for you [1:08:18] Because I remember this article, but I just like went over the headline and briefly started reading it. And then I had to do something and I put a bookmark to it. I was going to go back to it later and I never did. Okay. I thought you were going to say like something happened to the bookmark. No, no, no, no. No, I just, I never went back to it. But I remember during the COVID times, everybody was just like hand sanitizer everywhere. I'm like, I just don't think that can be good for you. I mean, anything that's antibiotic, right?

[1:08:48] to be at least a little bit hesitant with. [1:08:52] Mostly alcohol. Even alcohol, going through your skin like that. [1:08:57] So isopropyl alcohol, sometimes used instead, or with ethanol, similar levels. And then this word, benzoylconium chloride. [1:09:09] in many alcohol-free products. All right, but see if you can find articles on the dangers of using [1:09:19] hand sanitizer. [1:09:20] Because this is what I had read. [1:09:23] Briefly. [1:09:24] Just say... If people overuse it, you're going to fuck up your skin biome, but I don't... Yeah, that's what it's saying. Overuse... I just know that. I know a guy's got OCD, and he's... [1:09:37] You know, a hypochondriac a little bit and he uses hand sanitizer all the time. It's kind of crazy. And a friend of mine without knowing went to look at his house because his house was for sale. [1:09:48] And he's looking at the house. He's like, this is a very nice house. And he opens up a closet, and one of the closets was filled with hand sanitizer. And he got so freaked out, he didn't want to live in the house anymore. He's like, I don't want to buy this house. Like, this guy, like, whatever weird thing he's possessed with that he needs 50,000 fucking bottles of hand sanitizer. Yeah, the main issues are just classic. Like, overuse, and then don't not use it on your hands, obviously. Don't breathe it. Don't drink it. Right. Only use it on your hands. Yeah. But Jamie's right on the skin biome. [1:10:18] to be really important. Right. They call it the gut-skin axis, where your skin microbiome and your gut microbiome are

[1:10:26] like chatting all the time. And [1:10:29] you can change the composition of your skin microbiome based on [1:10:35] All kinds of stuff. [1:10:37] products, sun exposure, [1:10:39] you know, everything you do. Probiotics. Probiotics. Yeah. Yeah. [1:10:43] Well, in the jujitsu world, in the early 2000s, people started really getting into probiotics. They started really getting into acidophilus, yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables, and stuff like that just to prevent skin issues. Interesting. Because jujitsu, because you're getting scratched up and you're rolling around, and there's a lot of infections. And a lot of people get not just infections like staph infection, but they also get ringworm and a bunch of stuff like that. [1:11:13] Thank you. [1:11:14] Some people started using antibacterial soap. And the problem with that is it just nukes all the good flora of your skin. So then there's a company called Defense Soap. And they developed a soap specifically for grapplers. And this soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus. And it's very healthy for the skin. So it promotes healthy gut flora. But it does kill all the cooties. It kills all the matte cooties. [1:11:39] Yeah, I think that's basically what you want. [1:11:42] That microbiome, it can take a lot of natural... [1:11:45] you know abused is there it you know it actually lives on skin so it's usually getting [1:11:50] like, roughed up by the world. Mm-hmm. But, yeah, chemicals that are too strong. [1:11:55] can take it out. And the gut flora is important as well. It was like, you got to think of the whole thing as one.

[1:12:03] sort of ecosystem, your whole body, it all works together. And if your gut biome is all fucked up and you don't have healthy gut flora, it can affect all sorts of different issues. And yeah, it shows up on the skin for sure. That's well known. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five-star reviews [1:12:33] We deliver whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install. We have you covered real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 50% off with minimum purchase. Plus, get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card with unlimited 2% cash back on all eligible purchases. Unlimited 5% cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel Online. [1:13:03] That can grow with your business. You'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer of $1,500 cash back after you spend $50,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership. Terms apply. Learn more at go.amex.com. [1:13:18] So when you first started getting pushback against this, were you surprised? Did it upset you? Like, what did it feel like to get attacked by dermatologists? I am naturally conflict-averse, right? I was kind of like, do I even want to talk about this? But it was such interesting information. I thought it was important, so I wanted to. It started – I wrote an article for Outside back in, like, 2018, and I titled it, Is Sunscreen the New Margarine? Right? Ooh.

[1:13:48] It's right there. [1:13:49] That's pushing buttons. Yeah. I probably, you know, in retrospect, I don't push as many buttons today. I just point to the data. You just didn't like it? Didn't like the response? Well, I mean, it got a massive response. It went truly, you know, viral, as they used to say. [1:14:04] But... [1:14:05] It actually detracted [1:14:08] Like now, I think those old sunscreens really were, like margarine, detrimental, like the ones that only blocked UVB. So I think I kind of got it right, but also the title detracted from the information in the article, in a sense. [1:14:21] But why? Because margin sucks. Margin sucks. Those old sunscreens did suck. The new sunscreens, they're fine. So it's a good comparison. It turns out to have been, yeah. The more we learn about those old sunscreens, the more it looks like a sort of like... [1:14:35] a catastrophic mistake that then got fixed. But, uh, but, uh, [1:14:41] Yeah, so that... [1:14:42] So now the book is out, suddenly I've got all these beauty magazines contacting me. [1:14:48] And they have this image of me as like, [1:14:53] you know, the Unabomber, like hanging out, hanging out in my cabin and firing off these missives. [1:15:01] Really? Yeah. From beauty magazines? They were nervous to talk to me because they thought I was going to be, you know, a kook. A kook. [1:15:08] Yeah. [1:15:09] Wow. So the first, so those is sunscreen, the new margarine. So that was the first one. And what was the response to that?

[1:15:19] So do you remember the first really negative response and how you felt about it? [1:15:23] So, yeah, so there's an official letter from the AAD. Like, you know, we and, you know, they're very they're very polite. [1:15:31] But they're like, here, we think this is misrepresenting, you know, the information. And we think this is dangerous. If you're telling people that they might... [1:15:42] benefit from more sunlight, that's dangerous. [1:15:45] So that's probably, and then, you know, when that came in, I was like, so that needs to change. If we have in our heads that exposure to any sunshine is dangerous, we, you know, we're not seeing the forest for the trees. We've lost the thread on this one. [1:16:00] So I did a bunch of other articles. I did an article that focused specifically on the skin color issue. [1:16:07] like, [1:16:08] Do people of color... [1:16:10] Do we need to stop telling people of color that they need to protect themselves from the sun? [1:16:15] and then I did a couple more recently, uh, [1:16:18] for the Atlantic, um, [1:16:21] Just on – [1:16:22] Like, what should recommendations be? How do we, can we do recommendations that are not one size fits all? [1:16:27] Well, skin color in particular is one of the best signs of adaptation to environment. I mean, that's how human beings were able to get vitamin D from the sun in a place like Scotland. [1:16:40] When people moved there, they got pale as shit. [1:16:43] 100%. Completely makes sense. Yeah, and you can track it. It's like the gradations of lightning go with that move northward. Yeah. So you can tell. Like, white skin is like a desperate attempt to get enough light in a screwy northern environment. Right. But when those people that have ancestors from that screwy northern environment move to California or Arizona. Or Australia. Yeah. Well, Australia is real bad, right?

[1:17:10] there's, [1:17:10] All the people that use hairspray in the 80s, they caused a fucking giant hole in the ozone layer over Australia. Well, yeah, essentially. Yeah, Australia, when I was there, they have these signs on buses, like these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible lesions on people's faces and stuff. And it's just this warning to wear sunscreen. Protect yourself. They're right. That's the textbook case where you've got... [1:17:37] I think. [1:17:37] a horrible mismatch between the population and the place. Like, super, super high levels of sunshine in Australia, weak ozone, [1:17:46] like, [1:17:46] Redheads from Scotland who are trying to deal. So their skin cancer rates are literally like two or three times what they are anywhere else in the world. Wow. Now, how much of that is because of the skin color of the general Australian population other than the indigenous people? And how much of it is because the ozone? [1:18:06] So the ozone is healing itself slowly. We're getting there. So that's probably less of an issue now. It's a really fair skin population in a super bright, intense environment. So they do need to worry about it. But the problem is the rest of the world has kind of set its rules about sun exposure based on sun exposure. [1:18:26] Australia. What's interesting also about Australia is like, [1:18:30] I wonder how long it takes for human adaptation to start to show itself. [1:18:36] Do you think in 100,000 years from now, people that live in Australia will be dark?

[1:18:42] David Reich did that great episode [1:18:45] with you, right? [1:18:46] Did you have David Reich on? [1:18:48] Thank you. [1:18:50] David Reich. He's the Harvard ancient DNA guy. [1:18:57] Did we? [1:18:58] No. So he just came out with a new study like two months ago. We had so many people on I can't remember who I had on. I can't either. That's a problem. I was like, if I didn't hear it here, what did I hear? Anyway. It might be Lex. [1:19:08] It just... [1:19:11] That movement started a few thousand years ago. Suddenly, that pale redhead gene came out of nowhere and skyrocketed. So it can change pretty quickly when the environmental factors change. Really? That's only a few thousand years old? The redheaded gene, yeah. [1:19:30] Yeah. [1:19:30] That's crazy. It was kind of lingering quietly in the background. Maybe that's why gingers get so much hate. [1:19:37] Because they're just brand new. They are like the next new thing. But yeah, 4,000 or 5,000 years ago, it suddenly explodes in popularity, but in a very particular place in Northern Europe. [1:19:50] Oh, and most likely as a result to the environment. [1:19:53] Yeah, for 100%. Wow. Yeah. So I wonder how long it's going to take. I wonder if we could go into the future, if the same population lives in Australia now. [1:20:03] Well, I accept. [1:20:06] Here's the weird thing. [1:20:07] So, Australians versus UK, right, similar genetics. [1:20:12] Australia, super high rates of skin cancer because of that sunny environment, but also way better lifespan than in the UK.

[1:20:21] Really? So skin cancer is a factor, but... [1:20:24] That sunlight is actually benefiting Australians more than it's hurting them compared to the UK. I wonder if that's a healthy user bias as well because one of the things about Australia is a lot of outdoor activities. A lot of people are doing stuff outside. Yeah. A lot of activity, period. [1:20:43] And that could be a factor. And actually, that's one thing I come down to in the book is it's really hard to disentangle all of these factors. But... [1:20:51] What's really obvious... [1:20:53] is just... [1:20:54] Outside good. [1:20:55] too much inside. [1:20:57] bad. So whatever... [1:20:59] like, [1:20:59] You don't even have to break it down too much. [1:21:03] more outside, covered up, whatever you want, it's probably going to be good for you. One of the things a friend of mine who's a doctor said that when he was working in New York City in the wintertime, he would find people with undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah. And he said it was a particular problem with people with darker skin. Because if you have darker skin, you're going to get less vitamin D from the sun for whatever exposure you do get. And then these people are all indoors all the time. [1:21:28] Yeah, that's a really bad formula. Like, yeah, if you have dark skin, you need five to ten times as much... [1:21:36] sunlight to make the same amount of vitamin D. [1:21:38] So if you have really dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright color. [1:21:43] tropical environment where you're outside all the time, you can handle 12 hours a day of sunshine. And in fact, you're going to benefit from it.

[1:21:52] you get moved to a really dark environment. [1:21:55] And that's not going to be good for you. So you probably need to compensate in other ways. It's going to be very interesting when genetic engineering reaches a level where we can turn those things on and off in people. [1:22:09] And how do people react? [1:22:12] to fair-skinned people all of a sudden getting dark. [1:22:16] like well we are one race we are the human race there's a bunch of different [1:22:25] Yeah. [1:22:25] ancestors where people came from different areas where they adapted to different environments. But the reality is we're just human beings. And we all started in Ethiopia and we spread out. And that's just what we are. We are the result of whatever environment our ancestors evolved in. [1:22:42] Yeah, totally. And with skin tone, it's clearly like very, very specific reactions to that environment and trying to figure out what's best in each. [1:22:50] But there's so much racial identity that's tied to these characteristics of your appearance and where your ancestors are from. It's going to be very weird if all of a sudden people get dark, thick, curly hair and there used to be gingers. I wonder how people are going to react to that. [1:23:11] I mean it's coming, right? Right. It's coming. All bets are off. Yeah. I just wonder how many people are going to be claiming cultural or racial appropriation with people just deciding to have a healthier skin tone.

[1:23:26] That protects him from the sun more. Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Like that guy with the melanotan. I wonder if anybody got mad at him. Right, right? Like, what are you supposed to look like? Yeah, what are you supposed to look like? Yeah, yeah. [1:23:43] There was a lady that was on a television show once that was turning herself black. It was in the U.K., [1:23:48] And this lady looked... [1:23:50] She looked like she had other issues. She had giant breast implants. She looked like a kook. A bunch of plastic surgery. But she was dark as a date. Like that lady. That's a white lady. [1:24:04] So that's what she used to look like. [1:24:06] And she's getting her boobs bigger and bigger. She wants them bigger. [1:24:09] And so, look, she keeps getting. That's a little too far, maybe. Maybe. Wow, that's her? That's her. [1:24:15] So what did she do via intense use of tanning injections? Yeah. So she's the ultimate Melana tan hero. [1:24:24] Wow. I mean, that lady got like Cameroon dark. Like, look at that photo again. Go back to that video. Wow. [1:24:34] Like, that's crazy. That is crazy. That's crazy. I don't know. Maybe if you're in Australia, it works for you. [1:24:40] Maybe. Well, it would, right? It would protect because it is melanin. [1:24:46] But obviously she's got other things going on. Yeah, at some point you might... [1:24:52] I have too much mel-- so here's the funny thing about melanin as well. Like, so it's made by our melanocytes, which are what can become melanoma if they get screwed up. And those are in the very bottom of the epidermis, the outer layer of the skin.

[1:25:06] end [1:25:07] It's an incredibly good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with. It's almost perfect at it. But... [1:25:14] what you want it when it when your skin gets hit with sunlight [1:25:18] that melanin that's just been produced is at the bottom of the epidermis where the melanocytes are. So it has to migrate to the surface and then it kind of acts like little umbrellas. It'll cover the nucleus of the cell and protect it. So you get these little umbrellas [1:25:33] a line of umbrellas on the very top of your epidermis. But it has to migrate up [1:25:38] because of sunlight. If melanin is lower in your skin, then it's gonna absorb all that [1:25:44] radiation, but [1:25:45] farther down and actually it can cause more free radicals [1:25:49] deeper in the skin. And what would cause it to be lower? So it starts lower, and it only goes up in response to sunlight. So if you're never ever in the sun... [1:26:00] And you suddenly go out and get hit [1:26:03] by a bunch of sunlight. [1:26:04] your melon's gonna be down too low [1:26:07] and can actually create free, it can exacerbate the problem. So this lady might be exacerbating the problem if she's just getting the melanin that way. So yeah, I don't know, because I don't know about this specifically, but you probably yeah, you don't want to just be like messing around with melanin. [1:26:24] to the extent that she is. Oh, boy. That's interesting. Because, like, the melanotan stuff, I have heard about it before, and I never really looked into it, but [1:26:36] The idea kind of makes sense that if you can make your body produce more melanin, that would protect itself. But I didn't realize that it has to be melanin from sun exposure. You want it in the right place. Yeah. Could both things work? Could you do it that way and with sun exposure, increase both? And would it –

[1:26:58] give some sort of a benefit to have a higher level of melanin that could eventually get to the surface of the skin? Does that make any sense? You're above my pay grade now. I think you might be above everybody's pay grade. I don't know if anyone has looked at that. It seems like something to look into, though, if we know that there's a benefit to having melanin. Yeah, it may be interesting. I think this stuff's new enough that there probably hasn't been a ton of research on it. So what... [1:27:21] does a pale person do? What does the old pasty white do? [1:27:26] So full pasty white, like really pale? Yeah. Like my friend – I have a friend. My daughter said he's white, and I said she was really little. And I go, yeah. She goes, no, no, he's white like paper. [1:27:39] So if you're white like paper – He's from England. Yeah. Yeah. You do have to be really careful. Yeah. [1:27:44] You're not going to tan that much. You just don't make that much melanin. Can that change over time? Can they slowly expose themselves to the sunlight, like five minutes a day? [1:27:56] And just ramp it up. [1:27:58] It depends on your genetics. [1:28:02] If you're like a full-on ginger, like... [1:28:05] true redhead at year [1:28:08] then you have a type of melanin called pheomelanin. [1:28:10] Not eumelanin, which is what everybody else has. And pheomelanin just does not do a good job of absorbing sunlight. Oh, no. So there's no hope for gingers? There's no hope for gingers in terms of sun exposure. Damn. The hope is just, you know, avoid that. [1:28:25] midday sun that's high in UV. Get the morning and, like, the sunrise and sunset stuff that doesn't have the UV in it.

[1:28:32] Okay, so they can benefit from sun exposure, but they can't have full-on outdoor sun exposure. Yeah, they're the ones who need to be really careful. So for those people, sunscreen is recommended. Yeah. [1:28:45] Yeah, or just cover up even, I think, better. [1:28:49] you know [1:28:50] How many other people are working on this stuff? And is everybody sort of in agreement with the data, the people that – [1:28:57] or examining it [1:28:59] I mean, there's a ton of science coming out, but it's early days for sure. [1:29:04] Doesn't it seem crazy that Sun? [1:29:07] And our reaction to sun is unknown or at least poorly studied. [1:29:13] Yeah, yeah. [1:29:14] But yeah, it's amazing how many things in medicine – [1:29:19] You know, you dive into the research and you dig down a little. [1:29:22] And you realize that we're just kind of guessing still on many levels. [1:29:28] Like, it's early days for a lot of this stuff. [1:29:30] Well, certainly for stuff that they use for antidepressants. [1:29:34] yeah but yeah yeah [1:29:36] Yeah. [1:29:38] Sun exposure is competitive with antidepressants in terms of lifting depression. [1:29:42] Isn't that nuts? And you know what's way better? [1:29:45] Exercise. Yeah. Many times better than any known antidepressants. Regular exercise. I mean, exercise is number one for everything across the board. Ginger people with Mel, the peptide here. Mm-hmm. Seeing a few posts about it changing their hair color. Interesting. And this one does permanently. What? Yeah. Click on that. Well, this is – I guess this just takes it to the Reddit. It's just going to show a YouTube video here, but –

[1:30:10] There's multiple. Change his hair color. Other posts about it. [1:30:13] Whoa. I was just seeing... I wonder if that would work with people that are old. [1:30:19] That have like white hair. [1:30:23] I wonder what that would do. Like a melatonin 2 page says how it can affect... [1:30:27] hair color. I read through it real quick. This is not the best website. Isn't it weird that women with red hair are hot? [1:30:35] And men with red hair are not. It's very weird. Because women with red hair are considered very attractive. [1:30:44] Yeah, this guy just got a spray tan. [1:30:47] Okay. But the people that take it... [1:30:50] That one guy, is he like a one of one where it changed his hair color? So that, like I said, so this website. Click on the video. Let's watch it for a couple seconds. [1:30:59] See what this guy's showing. [1:31:02] So this is him before and this is him now. [1:31:05] His eyebrow and his beard colors changed. Also, we clicked on the... This might not even be him. He could be reporting the video about someone else, too. [1:31:23] Ginger. Now I was bullied a lot as a kid because I was ginger, I was weird and I was chubby. That's the winning trio for being directions from this, going through a lot of changes, [1:31:34] up here, down there, you know, the stuff that happens during puberty. So I didn't immediately notice that my hair had gotten much darker. It was actually other people.

[1:31:43] asking me what the hell I had done to my [1:31:46] hairline you know on this picture it's probably much clearer that's a picture of me and my brother we have the same genetics in regards of skin color and the color of our hair and as you can see my hair is now completely different from his we used to have the same skin [1:32:01] and the same hair, especially the color. Now this is only from using one vial of melanotin-2 in the span of a year, even more than a year, and it was at low dosages. But with our genetics of [1:32:15] Big, tall, white, [1:32:17] ginger, Belgian gingers, it completely changed the color of my hair and my skin and the effects [1:32:23] were very strong. [1:32:25] So the effects are permanent. So he still has dark hair. But what's interesting is that in the beginning, he had gray hair. [1:32:31] He seems older, obviously, right? Right, but he had gray hair. He was showing, and his hair's not gray anymore. [1:32:38] either. Right. I mean, gray and ginger. Gray is a loss of melanin. Melanin will make your hair dark as well as your skin dark. [1:32:47] So he's resupplied his melanin for his hair as well, it seems like. That seems kind of nuts. [1:32:53] He said one vial for a year. You don't even know all over a year. Right. So for a year. So his skin has gotten pale again. [1:33:01] But his hair is permanently dark. So that's what he used to look like. He had red hair. He had a red beard. And he had gray hair. [1:33:09] His hair had gone gray, and now his hair is dark. I've got to know if this guy's full of shit. That's, again, it's like there's only one person saying that. Yeah, that's the problem. It's like you don't know what you're looking at.

[1:33:20] Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? It's actually a club with cool finds and, like, a whole community. It's a club. Of course, Jason. It's in the name. Sam's Club. Oh, yeah. Come join us. Sam's Club. But that's crazy. But it is, yeah. Melan is the pigment for all of it. Put that in. Does melatonin, how does it say it? How do you say it? Melanotan. Melanotan? Does melanotan have an effect on hair color? Put that into perplexity. [1:33:50] See what they say. [1:33:51] Yeah, I admit this, yeah. [1:33:53] What does it say? [1:33:55] Thank you. [1:33:57] Because I know a lot of people with gray hair that bums them out. [1:34:00] and they dye it and shit, and that can't be good for you. You're putting fucking dye in your hair. I know. Stuff makes me hesitant. I'm stuck with the gray hair, I think. Well, mine would be gray if I had hair. It's all gray in my beard now. It's gray in my... [1:34:13] I'm going to try it. I'm going to try some melotinam and see if I get... [1:34:17] dangerous boners. [1:34:19] Melanotan does not have good human evidence of changing scalp or body hair color. [1:34:25] Its main effect is on skin tanning and freckling, not on turning hair darker or lighter. But how's that guy? [1:34:31] Maybe he's like a just a weird case. [1:34:35] Yeah, it's got to be a hormone dependent. What about the lady with the giant boobs? She had dark hair too. She's saying when I was looking through her thing, it said she went through a permanent tanning process. [1:34:49] So I don't know if she would have taken extreme dosages. She'll show her Instagram account is a mess.

[1:34:56] If it's even hers, it's the one that Google showed me. [1:35:00] What's the erection connection? I don't understand how... [1:35:04] You know, making more melanin. What's the melanotan erection connection? I have heard that, though. Actually, Brigham from Ways to Well, the local wellness clinic, was telling me about that. That some people have crazy erections because of melanotan. Yeah, like, what? How? And some people don't. Like, that one guy that had taken it, he said it didn't affect him that way. But maybe he's broken. [1:35:30] Does it say anything about... It's coming up right now. ...why melanitan causes boners? Okay. It can increase... [1:35:38] It's not approved for. [1:36:08] Thank you. [1:36:08] Same studies found increased sexual desire in a majority of doses compared with placebo. [1:36:14] Mmm. [1:36:15] Interesting. [1:36:18] I wonder what the connection is. It's the Milano-Corten. Like you said, the MC, what was it, MC4R up there? So, yeah, MC1R is the gene for...

[1:36:32] that could [1:36:33] determines whether you've got the red hair or not. Look at this. Common side effects were yawning. [1:36:40] Nausea, yawning, and stretching, flushing with decreased appetite. Some participants had severe nausea at higher dosage. Yawning and sexual desire is an interesting combination. Yeah, that's weird. [1:36:51] Yeah, I'm really horny, but I'm too tired of doing anything about it. [1:36:57] Hypoactive sexual desire for premenopausal women. Interesting. [1:37:03] Interesting. Also shows erectogenic effects in men with ED. [1:37:11] Including those who fail PDE5 inhibitors. [1:37:17] What is a PDE5 inhibitor? [1:37:22] Interesting. [1:37:24] Hmm. [1:37:25] Someone out there with gray hair should give it a go. Find out. Find out what's up. Doesn't sound like, other than dealing with boners, doesn't seem like there's any real problems. [1:37:35] I keep going back to this you getting attacked thing, and I don't understand how someone could attack you with the data that you're showing because you're not making any – [1:37:48] dangerous or... [1:37:50] you know, any claims or any, you're not advising people do anything that's reckless. [1:37:57] Yeah, no, I mean I purposefully have sort of, well I really haven't

[1:38:03] I basically tell people to figure it out for themselves, right? But [1:38:07] it's only small amounts of sun exposure that, [1:38:10] seem to be necessary to get most of the benefits. Like the jump isn't going from zero to some. It's, you don't need it a lot. Nobody really needs a lot. Unless you have really dark skin, then you can probably get away with a lot. [1:38:23] So yeah, just a little bit of sun exposure. [1:38:26] Doesn't seem like a crazy recommendation. [1:38:30] It's just because the messaging has been sort of so... [1:38:33] extreme and unyielding. Like, they've worked for so hard [1:38:38] take sort of [1:38:39] scare people [1:38:41] away from any sun exposure. [1:38:45] that I think [1:38:46] backing that up a little bit is sort of uncomfortable. [1:38:49] you know [1:38:50] I understand, but I mean, isn't history filled with new discoveries and changing courses? [1:38:58] Yeah, and I think it'll change. [1:38:59] But... [1:39:00] One funeral. [1:39:15] Yeah, that's a good question. So the one, like the metaphor that I think we're all familiar with and that I think maps pretty perfectly here is, [1:39:24] is... [1:39:26] diet and fat, right? [1:39:28] Like... [1:39:29] 25 years ago, Gary Taubes does that article in the New York Times Magazine, What If Fat Doesn't Make You Fat? And we were still back in that era of...

[1:39:39] You know, carbs, cut all the fat out of your diet, carbs are good for you. Margarine, right? The margarine era. [1:39:46] The top experts got it 100% wrong back then. [1:39:50] And when they got called on it by, like, you know, Tobs and others, Nina Teicholz, you guys have had Nina on. I've had Tobs on as well. Oh, yeah. Okay. [1:40:00] you know, they fought hard [1:40:02] And they were totally wrong. And we now, you know, we flipped, but it took a long time. And, you know, there was a little blood in the water. [1:40:10] During that process. Oh, yeah. I was in the early days of that and people were just warning me. [1:40:16] About my cholesterol. What about your cholesterol? Yeah. What's really interesting is during the heart of that, when I eat a lot of meat, my diet's mostly meat. And I went to the doctor and I got all my levels checked and he said, are you on insulin? [1:40:29] some anti-cholesterol medication. And I said, no, why? And he goes, you have very low cholesterol. Interesting. It's weird. [1:40:38] And I go, dude, if you saw my diet, my diet is like mostly meat and eggs and bacon. That's like a giant percentage of my diet. I thought that was really interesting. [1:40:49] I think, I mean, yeah, I think the evidence is pretty good. Like for keto, I think it's pretty stress. Saladino, I think is pretty much spot on on a lot of this stuff. [1:40:59] But, but... [1:41:00] So, yeah, so that, like... [1:41:01] The ultimate experts all said that was going to kill you. Right. You know, Atkins back in the day, and they were all completely wrong.

[1:41:11] So, yeah. [1:41:12] There's a long track record of the pros being wrong, I think, on a lot of things. But that's a really good example. And people can wrap their heads around that one because we now, I think a lot of people, [1:41:23] low carb really works well for them. I mean, they completely flipped the food pyramid. [1:41:27] Right, which was a beautiful thing to do, and I can't believe it happened so fast. Yeah. Well, also with very little pushback. It's kind of interesting. Super. Because the evidence had already compounded to the fact that, listen, for sure, margarine is not a good thing. It's not a good substitute. But also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from milk, that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol on eggs. Eggs, you could live off just eggs. Yeah, probably the perfect food. [1:41:57] Eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends that are vegans, I was like, listen, man, just get some chickens, and they're your pets, and they give you free food. It's like I have... [1:42:06] 16 chickens now and I get eggs every day and these chickens are pets like I go hey ladies you know I feed them I throw the worms down they're not afraid of me they they listen to me when I open the door they come running out and they wander around the yard. [1:42:22] It's like a great relationship. You get free food. You take care of them. You feed them. And they eat all the bugs in your yard. And you get these delicious, healthy eggs from them. With those beautiful orange eggs. Yeah. So if you're worried about if it's an ethical thing, you don't want animal cruelty, and good for you, that's a wonderful way to live. But you are sacrificing your health by not eating pasture-raised eggs. Just get the real ones, not the bullshit ones, the real ones.

[1:42:52] They're tricking people now. Some companies have been exposed for feeding their chickens turmeric. [1:43:00] They feed them curcumin and turmeric because it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yolk. [1:43:08] I know, right? It's like... [1:43:11] It's so screwy, so bizarrely backwards. It is, but isn't turmeric good for you? And wouldn't turmeric that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you? It's like... Yeah, it can't hurt. I mean... Right? [1:43:24] So it's not like they're getting them food dye. Right. You know what I mean? Right. So it's like, yeah, you're getting these darker eggs because people like that, and the darker eggs come from turmeric, but... [1:43:35] Yeah. Still, you're getting turmeric then, aren't you? Isn't that how it works? I mean, that's fine. But I think the chicken, I think like it's the bugs that sometimes help turn them on. Yeah, we get we get eggs from our neighbor, like in Vermont. Everybody. There's chickens like running around the road everywhere. [1:43:53] And, yeah, they're delicious. Yeah, you can tell that they're getting it from the bugs and the greens. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. [1:44:00] And it's super healthy. I mean, but that color of things is also why they dye farm-raised salmon, which is really gross. Right. So salmon are getting that from bugs in particular. Yeah, exactly. Little arthropods. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like miniature shrimp kind of. Yeah, that's why they have that wonderful-looking pink skin, that orangey pink skin. So in that case, the dye is maybe a little more suspect. Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect because it's like, you know, these farm-raised salmon,

[1:44:30] because they're eating bullshit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. [1:44:34] Are there any other things that you've stumbled across that turned out to be good for you that people were averse to? [1:44:42] I'm still curious about alcohol. You know how everything is flipped on alcohol? Like, first it was like, a drink or two a day is good for you. And then suddenly they flipped like a year or two ago and say... [1:44:52] Any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I looked into those studies [1:44:57] and [1:44:59] It seems like [1:45:00] The takeaway really should have been [1:45:01] you know, [1:45:03] moderate drinking doesn't do much of anything to you. Maybe it is slightly good for you or slightly bad for you, but for a drink a day or [1:45:13] one to two a day. [1:45:14] Didn't seem to have a whole lot of impact on mortality at all. [1:45:18] And also probably reduces a little bit of stress. [1:45:23] It relieves a little bit of social anxiety. And that alone is really beneficial. Like how do you feel? Like are you happy or are you stressed out? Sometimes a drink or two, you're like, ah, fuck it. We're fine. Everything's good. Like that alone has benefits, like what it does to your mood, that it's a social lubricant. It will allow you to like maybe laugh a little bit more, have a little bit more fun. Totally, which is why I can't give it up. Like that social environment is a really nice environment to be in. [1:45:53] a couple beers helps make that happen. [1:45:56] It's a good thing. I gave it up for about eight months. I completely – problem is I own a comedy club, and I was there a lot. And so everybody's like, have a drink, have a drink. Let's do shots. And the next thing you know, I was in the gym the next day feeling like shit. I got tired of doing that to myself, and so I said, I'm just going to stop drinking. Yeah.

[1:46:14] Not because I'm an alcoholic. It wasn't hard to stop. It was super easy. I just stopped. And then I started feeling way better. I was like, God. [1:46:21] Why was I drinking for so long? It was just so bad. And then I was at dinner with my wife, had a margarita like eight months later. I'm like, let's have a drink. She wasn't drinking either. I'm like, let's have a drink. I'm like, this is nice. I like it. So now I limit myself. I just I won't have more than like two drinks. Two drinks is kind of my math. But two drinks is right. Two drinks is like we as long as you don't have to drive. You're not going anywhere. You know, if I go to the club, I'm there for hours. [1:46:45] Yeah. Completely sober after it's all over. It's like I wake up in the morning. I don't feel like shit. It doesn't seem to be affecting my workouts. However, if you wear a Whoop or an Oura ring or one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your sleep, in your recovery. You're not sleeping as well. You don't sleep as well. You don't get the same deep sleep. [1:47:06] I can tell. Yeah, just one glass of wine can fuck you up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And for me, that hit in middle age. Like, before that wasn't a problem. [1:47:15] But now, yeah, like two drinks, two does seem to be the cutoff where – [1:47:19] Life functions normally still. But yeah, the sleep's not as restorative somehow. Somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing of when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have a glass of wine at dinner at 6 o'clock, but you don't go to bed until midnight. I wonder if then your body has a chance to process it, and then you're okay. Italian style, right? I feel like the Mediterranean lifestyle, they got this pretty much nailed down 2,000 years ago. Right. It seems to work pretty well.

[1:47:49] Which also brings us back to food, right? Because the way they eat is so – it's so interesting how thin they are, and yet they eat mostly carbs. Yeah. [1:47:59] I know. I know. Something's different there. A lot's different, and we know what it is now. We know that there's a lot of additives and preservatives, and it's also like they don't use glyphosate. And they have heirloom wheat, so they have wheat that hasn't been optimized to have a higher yield, so it doesn't have as much complex wheat glutens. And so there's a lot of issues with our food. [1:48:21] unfortunately. [1:48:22] And if you eat American bread, you know, the bromine, all the different additives, all the shit that we put in our food, that's so disturbing. Whenever I go to Italy, I'm so angry that when I come back home, I can't have food like this. Like you have to seek it out. You have to go to like certain restaurants that only use like Italian flour. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you look at – [1:48:44] those Mediterranean cultures and [1:48:47] it just works for them. And yeah, like you say, it's, you can't explain it in terms of like macronutrients or anything like that. Like, [1:48:54] it's something, there's something [1:48:57] synergistic about that lifestyle. I do actually think light is part of it, too. Like, they've got great light there. Yep. They have great light, especially like Amalfi Coast, those people. Yeah. But the other thing is also less stress. Yeah. [1:49:09] They're not as career focused. They're more family oriented, very tight knit family groups. They eat dinner together. There's a lot of laughing, a lot of drinking wine. A lot of them smoke cigarettes. Cigarettes never went out of style over there. They're all smoking cigarettes.

[1:49:25] And you're like, how are you guys so fucking healthy? This is weird. [1:49:29] Yeah, it'll be interesting on cigarettes if it turns out that [1:49:34] in a certain context, they're not that damaging, and then [1:49:38] Out of that context, they're super damaging? I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that – and this is, I think, controversial as well, but it's cigarettes taken along with olive oil and that a lot of these people have high olive oil-rich diets and that cigarettes along with olive oil, that the olive oil tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing. That is super interesting. Yeah, which kind of makes sense. [1:50:08] Everything is going to be something like that. Yeah. It's bad in a certain context, and then... [1:50:14] it seems to have been okay for people in a different context. Yeah. [1:50:17] Yeah. Are there any other things that you've noticed? Like I know you've done work on chocolate, right? [1:50:23] A lot of work on – yeah. [1:50:26] like my first sort of big magazine story, Outside Magazine, sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy hunt to, like with this German guy. It was basically Apocalypse Now with chocolate, you know, but this German guy was going upriver into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao, like to work with some of the indigenous groups. [1:50:46] to harvest wild cacao and make like the world's first wild chocolate. [1:50:50] So I went with him. [1:50:52] crazy, crazy trip. [1:50:54] But yeah, I sort of fell in love with cacao on that trip. But it was like we landed, we took a small plane and we were going to land on this river and meet a canoe that was going to take us upriver to meet with these indigenous groups.

[1:51:08] So we found a runway. [1:51:10] This is in the Bolivian Amazon. [1:51:12] I've been in the Amazon all of like four minutes, right? The plane drops us off on this flooded runway where like it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be alive. Um, [1:51:25] And then... [1:51:27] these four guys with guns come out of this little cabin and we're like, we're...this is actually a... [1:51:33] a landing strip that our, you know, Colombian boss owns and we're guarding it for him and [1:51:39] "What are you two white dudes doing here?" So like all the cocaine traffic comes through this part of the Amazon. [1:51:44] And we had just done what people actually have been killed for, which is... [1:51:49] you know, like, [1:51:50] If a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume you're like DEA or something. So they're super suspicious of... [1:51:57] And I, you know, they're speaking Spanish, so I was like catching every fourth word or something. I'm like, this can't be good because of the guns. But anyway, the guy I was with, the German guy. [1:52:05] He negotiated with them and... [1:52:07] Finally, they're like, "Okay, just give us a landing fee." So we're like, "Sure." But yeah, so that was the beginning of my chocolate journey. So what part of the Amazon were you? [1:52:20] Bolivia, which you know, Bolivia you think of like mountains, La Paz, but they have these lowlands which are like straight up. [1:52:27] like rain like tropical rainforest it's called the Benny [1:52:30] and it's like [1:52:32] truly lawless area, like huge swaths of jungle, [1:52:35] Bunch of cattle ranching as well. And all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes. And you went there just as a journalist? Yeah. So this guy, this German guy, he'd been living there for 20 years.

[1:52:49] and he was trying to get this cacao [1:52:51] And you're like, yeah, I'm going to go meet with these groups. Do you want to come? [1:52:56] And Outside had just come to me and they'd like something else I'd written. And they're like, hey, we're Outside Magazine. What's the freakiest thing you ever wanted to do? We'll send you there. [1:53:06] And I had like a little kid at the time, so I was like, you know, I'm not going to be going off a... [1:53:11] 200 foot waterfall and kayak for you guys. But then this, this like, you know, [1:53:15] Heart of Dark Chocolate thing came up. And I was like, I could be the comic guy for them. So it was this ridiculous journey where everything went wrong. But we did get some really good chocolate at the end of it. So what is the benefit of wild cacao? Wow. [1:53:31] It tastes really, really good, like better than the industrial varieties of cacao that most chocolates made with. And it's just like kind of a cool story. And it can be used to support those indigenous groups so that the forest doesn't get cut down and turned into more like cattle ranch. [1:53:48] Because cacao grows in the understory of the rainforest. [1:53:52] So it's kind of a way to monetize the full rainforest. And keep the canopy intact. Exactly. What is the benefits of cacao health-wise? It's right there with coffee. Tons of polyphenols, a little bit of caffeine. [1:54:08] It seems to be anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you happy. [1:54:14] For some of the same reasons and maybe some different ones as well. And when you say it tastes better, like in what way? Like when you try it?

[1:54:22] A lot more aromatics and less bitterness. Basically, what happened with cacao is when it became a global product... [1:54:32] the Europeans selected varieties. [1:54:35] that were high yielding. Same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They were high yielding, but they lost some of like the great aromatic qualities that like the old Maya cacao had had. And that's what gets grown all over the world. Most cacao comes from Africa now. [1:54:50] And it's more bitter... [1:54:52] less interesting, but way cheaper. [1:54:55] Yeah. [1:54:56] So then there was this movement that started like 10, 15 years ago of people – [1:55:01] trying to go back to Latin America to find the like ancient, [1:55:05] heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make like [1:55:08] better chocolate than had ever been made before. [1:55:11] Sort of the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which is where cacao originated, still growing wild. [1:55:17] So it's kind of cool if you can go back to the... [1:55:21] you know? [1:55:22] primordial days when you make chocolate. Well, I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example because heirloom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious. So much better. They're so much better. And then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper. Yeah. Is that cacao? That's what it looks like? Yeah. So it's these pods and you open up the pod. It's kind of like the size of like a little Nerf football or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. I had no idea. And so chocolate is made from the seeds... [1:55:52] inside. You've got to ferment them and then roast them, and then you grind them into chocolate.

[1:55:56] Where can one get heirloom chocolate made from this ancient cacao? [1:56:03] Is there a company? Yeah. So the place I send people is Caputo's, which is an online site. They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate. There they are. Is that the people? Yeah. So Caputo's has most of the great wild cacaos available on their website. It's just like retail. Caputo's. So is it caputo's.com? Yeah. It's from Salt Lake City? [1:56:27] Yeah, they've got a cool shop in Salt Lake. Oh, interesting. [1:56:32] Thank you. [1:56:32] Preserve Bolivian rainforests. Yeah, there you go. Ritual chocolate. Yeah, I've heard of people like ritual cacao ceremonies. I'm like, [1:56:41] What are you doing? What are you doing? [1:56:44] That it's it's a that's a gringo thing. [1:56:49] Uh-huh. Everyone thinks it goes back to some, like, we're referencing some ancient Maya ceremony. Of course it is. It was a... [1:56:57] A white dude in Guatemala named Keith. Look at these people. Yeah, there you go. Look at these people. Right. [1:57:02] It's kind of like ayahuasca with training wheels. They do cacao. But what can come out of a ritual where you take cacao? I mean, same thing that can come out of a ritual where you do anything else. You're focusing and some mindfulness. You get a little boost from the cacao. But not much. Yeah. It's more about the ritual or cacao. [1:57:25] Why is cacao – what is a cacao ceremony? Why are they suddenly showing up all over L.A.?

[1:57:31] Yeah, you can answer that one on your own. So, I mean, Jamie, if you can call it Keith's Cacao. There's this guy named Keith. I think he died recently. He's like the classic gringo guru with a big white beard who would have people in Guatemala. And he's just invented this cacao ceremony thing. Oh, white people. But he's a – Damn it, white people. [1:57:50] And then everyone else sort of took it from him. There he is. Well, he looks like the type of guy. Look at him. Big old fucking dirty pot of cacao. Dunking in a costume. So he started. [1:58:05] Okay. Poor Keith. [1:58:08] These silly people. [1:58:11] But there's like antioxidants in it. Like there's other. A ton. Yeah. It's good for you. It's totally good for you. [1:58:18] And yeah, you know. [1:58:21] gets your heart beating a little faster. There's some happy drugs in there. [1:58:24] It's got a tiny bit of cannabinoids in it. [1:58:27] But... [1:58:29] And it tastes great. [1:58:30] So. [1:58:32] You know, what's not to like? [1:58:33] Anything else? Any other foods or substances or different things that you found out that were beneficial? [1:58:40] Well, how do you feel about oysters? I've read a book about oysters too. I eat them all the time. Are you? I like them. Are they okay? [1:58:47] I mean, they're great. [1:58:48] But... [1:58:49] There's no but. They're great. But I think we haven't figured out why. You know, you're eating like a little living being. Right. So I think, you know, there's like some chi factor there where the reason people get so excited and feel so good when they eat oysters is...

[1:59:03] It's not because of like... [1:59:05] the nutrients, it's like there's something else that's in there, you know. [1:59:09] Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? There's definitely zinc. And they're supposed to have an aphrodisiac effect, right? Yeah. So I think that aphrodisiac thing is like, it's more about the chi, like this living force that you're ingesting. This sounds like hippie talk. It does sound a little, you know, like chi's going to get justified scientifically at some point. Yeah. [1:59:31] So you think you're getting – what's interesting, there's another friend of mine made an argument for vegans to eat shellfish. [1:59:40] He said, like, if you're eating clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. [1:59:54] Yeah, weirdly so. Yeah. And mussels and clams and oysters, they're not. [2:00:01] They're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. Yeah. And they just move. And because they move, they open and close. We've decided that they're animals. And with oysters, that's literally the only thing they can do. Clams at least can dig down. They get the tongue. Yeah. Oysters, they're stuck. They just open and close. There's... [2:00:20] Not a whole lot going on there, for sure. Right, but... [2:00:24] healthy for you. [2:00:25] Yeah. [2:00:26] Unless you get a bad batch and then you die. They are definitely a source of food poisoning. Yeah, I've heard people dying. Yeah, yeah. They kill a few people every year. You know, it's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from oysters once when we were on vacation. We were in Hawaii and she ate oysters and somehow or another she got it and I didn't. But then my daughter, who didn't eat oysters, also got the food poisoning. Because food poisoning apparently can spread through the air.

[2:00:53] Interesting. And so it's contagious. Yeah. I guess if you're like ralphing hard enough, you're flowing it through the air. I guess. But it was really weird. And that's how we found out that food poisoning is contagious. And that's one of the reasons why they isolate people when they're on boats when they have food poisoning. Yeah. Because those people could actually spread whatever that is through the air. [2:01:15] Hmm. [2:01:16] fucking weird. Yeah. [2:01:18] Yeah, but I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when I eat them because every now and then you hear like, "Houston man dies from food poisoning from oysters." Cold water. Cold water is a friend. It says, "Food poisoning itself is not directly contagious as it refers to an illness caused by eating or drinking contaminated food. However, the specific viruses or bacteria responsible for the contamination are highly contagious and can easily spread from person to person through poor hygiene or shared surfaces." [2:01:46] You know, so it's contagious. [2:01:48] So the viruses that come from food poisoning are contagious. It's not like... [2:01:52] through the air. [2:01:53] Through the air. Oh, so surface contact. Is that what it is? Oh, I see. [2:01:58] So coughing and stuff, injecting. Yeah. So you may be... [2:02:02] Interesting the airborne confusion the confused few show more I [2:02:06] confuse food poisoning with highly contagious stomach bugs like norovirus. [2:02:12] where the viruses are not airborne, they're highly contagious, can spread through the air in tiny droplets when someone vomits. There it is. [2:02:20] leading to contaminated surfaces or breathing in aerosolized particles. So that's what it is. It's the coughs.

[2:02:27] Yeah. [2:02:29] Um, okay. I think we covered it. [2:02:32] You think... [2:02:32] Yeah, I think you're going to get a lot of interesting responses. So guess what? I don't read them. So good luck to all those haters shouting into the void. I've long suspected that sun exposure is probably good for you, and it's really just a matter of how much and mitigating the damage that you could get if you get burnt. Turns out you're right. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense that your body produces vitamin D through it. [2:03:02] you feel so good and yet somehow or another is bad. I think it's like many things, very, [2:03:07] nuanced and so I'm really happy that you did so much work on it. [2:03:11] And I'm happy you rode the storm, too. [2:03:13] Well, the storm's just coming. I'm sure, especially after this show. But thank you very much, and tell everybody where your book is and how they can get it. [2:03:21] Yeah, so whatever their favorite online place, In Defense of Sunlight, [2:03:26] Amazon, anywhere else. And did you do an audio version of it? Yeah, they let me read it. Yes! We'll see if that was good news or not. Nice. I love it when someone reads their own book. It's very important, I think. Me too, yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Bye, everyone.