The World Cup Final Is Here

[00:00] Introducing The Problem Solvers, a new series from Anthropic about the startup founders who are getting things done with Cloud. Like Max Unistrand, co-founder and CEO at Lagora, an AI workspace for legal teams. The very cool thing for us is that with each new model, new capabilities are unlocked. This is profoundly changing the legal industry because no technology before has ever been able to work with language and reasoning like large language models. Watch the series at cloud.com slash problem solvers. [00:30] That's cloud.com slash problem solvers. [00:37] From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kittroweff. This is The Daily on Sunday. [00:44] The World Cup, which captivated billions of people across the world, brightening our days and giving us a break from all of life's normal stressors, is coming to an end. What are you going to do to, like, fill your time when the World Cup is over? I don't know. I mean, I'm really going to be sad. I don't know what to do. [01:05] A really good month. We're going to be really sad when the World Cup ends. We're spending a lot of time planning for the Women's World Cup next year in Brazil, just trying to keep the momentum going. I have a wife, and it's a full-time trip as well, so maybe I would just spend more time with my wife or find a hobby. I don't know. Maybe I would start needing, I don't know, something.

[01:35] 48 teams are down to two. Spain will play the World Cup final. Spain. Argentina do it again. And Argentina, who will play each other in the final this afternoon. Spanish fans are hoping that their smothering approach and young phenom can win them their second trophy in history. [02:05] in what may be his last World Cup. [02:08] today [02:09] My colleague Tarek Panja [02:11] On the road to this historic matchup, [02:14] and what to know before the game begins. [02:20] It's Sunday, July 19th. [02:25] Tarek, welcome back to the show. It turns out the World Cup is all you need to be on the daily like three times in the span of five weeks or something like that. Yeah, it feels like a season ticket at this point. [02:37] So it all comes down to this. In a few short hours, we are going to get a showdown for the ages between Spain and Argentina. And we are going to talk about these two teams, their identities, their stories as a way of preparing people for what they're about to watch. [02:55] planning to watch to turn on the game this afternoon. But first... [03:00] Let's just do a recap of what we've seen so far in this tournament, because...

[03:05] It's been pretty magical. Yeah, this tournament has delivered so many storylines, so many narratives, the glories, the highs, the lows. And of course, this is the biggest World Cup we've ever seen. And it has felt that way. It's had an enormity to it that has clearly been a part of the story. Three countries, thousands of miles of travel and thousands of different stories. [03:34] Okay, I want to get into those highs and lows. Let's start with the highs. You had prepared us to look at these underdogs of this tournament. How did that turn out? It turned out thrillingly, in a way. We saw teams get through the group stages and into the knockouts in ways we didn't imagine. We saw the likes of the Democratic Republic of Congo at the World Cup for the first time in decades and with a new name since they were last there. That's how long it's [04:04] me [04:05] We saw one of the great stories of all World Cups in the island of Cape Verde getting through the group stage by holding the finalist Spain. [04:17] And then taking on and almost overcoming the other finalists, Argentina, what moments they've produced for their nation, for the rest of us, and given us the gift of Vazinho, the 40-year-old goalkeeper, the journeyman soccer player in goal for a team that is expected to be steamrolled.

[04:47] is in the goal. He instantly becomes a folk hero. [04:51] Okay, and what about my personal favorite dark horse in all this, Norway? [04:57] Norway absolutely came in and punched their way through the tournament. They came with confidence and it was born out of having this colossus up front, their striker, Erling Braut Haaland. He was a star before coming to the United States for what he's done in the Premier League and the Champions League. But he had never played in the World Cup. And boy, did he deliver. [05:27] through to the quarterfinals. And he will be remembered for... [05:32] Of course, these goals, but a lot more. His kind of wry personality, his jokes, and the fact that this is a guy who fully embraced America and Americana in a way that I think endeared him to many people in the United States and beyond. I believe when he landed in Norway, he came off the plane carrying a stuffed raccoon in his arm. That was amazing. I saw it. [06:02] perfect encapsulation of his experience in America. I mean, he really took a part of us home with him. And I feel like we here in America are never going to forget it. Yeah. Again, this is what the World Cup does every four years. You know, births, heroes, birth stories and memories. I think Americans, whether they went to the stadiums or were watching on television or just walked out in their streets, won't forget the month the World Cup came to town.

[06:30] Okay, you mentioned Haaland's goals, Tarek. What about your favorite goal of this tournament? What was it? I think the goal that will stand out for me and for many others is... Lopez Cabral! It's incredible! Sidney Lopez Cabral's absolute worldie against Argentina in the last 32. This is Cape Verde. This is Cape Verde, yeah. [07:00] It's Cape Verde for a second time tonight, tying the game! This is a team that was expected to be steamrolled by the world champions. And what a goal! That's a goal that dreams are made of! She absolutely connected with that ball and sent the crowd into ecstasy. The Argentines having these heart attacks as that ball is sailing into the top corner. [07:27] And I've got a personal story with this. I was in Houston watching this [07:32] in a fan zone. [07:34] And there were not many Cape Verde fans. And I found this guy... [07:38] I was interviewing him as this happened, and his immediate reaction was to launch me up into the air, bear of a man. [07:48] I was up in the air, and it felt like the most natural thing. Of course that should happen. [07:56] That's incredible. Wow. So you you were actually in the air when you were experiencing this goal. I mean, literally this moment and you could sense what it means to the nation. I could certainly in that moment to this guy and his family and watching those scenes. This really, really wasn't supposed to happen. What an underdog story that would have been. They really took Argentina to the brink. This is Lionel Messi's Argentina.

[08:26] Verdi, to be honest, this team that no one had ever heard of three weeks ago. And that goal encapsulated all of that so, so well. [08:35] Okay, that was fun. But now we need to move on to your low points, Tarek. What were they? I think this World Cup will be remembered for all of this joy and all of the great soccer or football that we've seen. But it will also be stained by the intervention of the U.S. government in disciplinary matter. [09:05] got for a red card. So here you have [09:11] A video replay... [09:13] showing [09:15] to the referee that [09:16] Balogán had clashed with a Bosnian defender and his foot had come down on his ankle. That, in the opinion of Juan Soto of Venezuela, is a potential red card and he's calling the referee over. It felt innocuous, but the referee went to look at the screen. After review, the number 20 United States Committee says foul. And he's given the red card. The final decision is red card. Wow. Look, these things happen. [09:46] of the game. [09:47] It was a bad red card. Yes, it's a bad red card. You know, you can argue about it in the bars and the pubs and home, but it's a red card. And what should happen is an automatic one game suspension. It would have ruled Balogun out of the next United States game. And the U.S. president is watching this and he says, hang on.

[10:07] This is an injustice. And as we reported out, Donald Trump, in fact, rings his friend, the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino. And then to the surprise and honestly, to the horror of many, the rules appear to have suddenly changed. And Foller and Balogand's one game suspension is somehow suspended itself. He is then allowed to play. And what it does, it casts a pull over the tournament itself and over the United States. [10:37] national team there was a feel-good factor over them there was momentum they were well liked and suddenly almost overnight with a flick of a disciplinary committee chairman's pen they become the villains and it looks like fifa is putting its thumb on the scale for the united states and now everything is suddenly being questioned [11:01] Okay, setting aside... [11:04] the questions surrounding the Trump administration's involvement in all this. It also strikes me that this episode centers on this other aspect of the tournament that I think was a low for a lot of people, which is the contentiousness of the video reviews on the field and the ubiquitousness of them. Just walk me through that. Video assistant refereeing has been around since the 2018 World Cup in Russia. [11:34] was to improve accuracy and to make sure there are no kind of miscarriages of justice on the field. However,

[11:42] People are arguing more and more. People are angrier more than more as more of this technology is being used. So I guess you have to be careful what you ask for. And then the use of this technology led to some heartbreaking reversals. I think most notably, you have this moment in a game between Egypt and Argentina where Egypt, if the goal had stood, a sweeping move across the field would have been one of the goals of the tournament. [12:12] celebrations, the emotional uplift in the stadium, suddenly all of that is cut short because we are using technology to such an extent that we are at risk, many people would say, of killing the naturalness of the game, the joy, the pure moments that it can create. And that was one of them. [12:33] Overall, Tarek, despite those dramas, it seems fair to say that this tournament has been a massive success, right? I mean, it's the most watched in history. In the U.S., which is not a big soccer country, the U.S.-Belgium game was one of the most watched sporting events of the year thus far. Yeah, it hit all the key metrics of audience, of drama, of excellence on the field. [13:03] exorbitant ticket prices pricing out millions of fans from around the world and we're going to break more records in the final argentina against spain in a world cup final this is going to be a game for the ages all right we're going to take a quick break and when we get back we are going to talk about those two teams

[13:28] We'll start with Spain, how they got here, and how they could win it all. We'll be right back. [13:43] Anthropics Cloud is the AI for problem solvers, like Scott Wu, co-founder and CEO of Cognition. With the help of Cloud, Scott and his team built the first autonomous AI software engineer. At Cognition, what we've always focused on is trying to solve for the messiness of software engineering in the real world. By getting to work with Anthropic, we've been able to help bring folks to a new era of software engineering. To hear more, go to cloud.com slash problem solvers. That's cloud.com slash problem solvers. [14:13] I'm Paul Tenorio. I cover soccer for The Athletic. And I'm Amy Lawrence. I cover football for The Athletic. Whatever you call it, the biggest competition in the sport is happening right now. And The Athletic's World Cup coverage has everything you need to follow the tournament. This 48-country staking park from the tiny island of Curacao to the five-time champions Brazil. Even if you don't know your offside from your onside, if you're eager to know more about the teams, the matches, all the stories on and off the pitch, we've got you sorted. [14:43] who's already up early every weekend, waking the neighbors when your favorite club scores. We'll make sure you get equipped with more information, more insight than anyone you know. We've got more than 70 obsessive reporters on the ground, covering the ins and outs from every game. I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy. Free access to the Athletics World Cup coverage in our app. Download the Athletic app and see you there.

[15:10] Tarek, this may seem counterintuitive, but I think that any conversation about the identity of the Spanish team has to begin with France. At the beginning of this World Cup, France looked like a juggernaut, an almost untouchable behemoth of a squad that basically included two full rosters of all-stars, as you told us. They coasted to the semifinal on the backs of these mega goal scorers, Mbappe, Dembele, Olisse. [15:40] they ran into the brick wall of Spain, which shut them out in the semifinal and surprised a lot of people, I think, with this two nothing victory. So how did that happen? It happened because it was a victory about team and not star, about process and not brilliance in a way. [16:10] these young Spanish players from... [16:13] as early as they could probably kick a ball, as early as they could walk for some of these guys. And you see that. [16:23] They are able to dominate possession in such a way that they almost keep it away from the other team long enough for them to almost have their brains fried. And I think that's what happened to France.

[16:43] Thank you. [16:48] Okay, you said this style of play had been put into the minds of these players from a very young age. Explain that to me. How does that work? What are we talking about? This is a process from the Spanish Soccer Federation that runs through schools, that runs through academies from a very young age, [17:18] system you just kind of boom boom boom the ball being passed from player to player keeping the opposition away and getting your objective that way there was a famous soccer manager sir alex ferguson [17:31] His team, Manchester United, played in the Champions League final against Barcelona, the birthplace of this modern style of play the Spanish are showing. And he said after his team lost, once you get on that carousel, it's hard to get off, i.e. his team were being led a merry dance. [17:49] Mm-hmm. The philosophy behind this approach, of course, is if you keep the ball, the other team doesn't have the ball and they can't score. But that... [17:59] patience on display. I mean, some people think it's quite boring, right, Tarek? Yeah, and sometimes I would subscribe to that school of thought. It's not particularly thrilling to watch. And for Spain, it's interesting. They've had two periods.

[18:16] They had this early period where this was on the ascendancy, where they wowed the world with this. What I'm talking about is when they won the European Championship in 2008, then their first World Cup in 2010, and then the European Championship again in 2012. They were the supreme team, the dominant team of world football about a generation ago. Using this style. Yeah. And then they hit a lull because it ended up with them just passing the ball around, the other teams defending deep, and kind of nothing happening. [18:46] Because they couldn't actually find a way to make all those passes, those metronomic passes, turn into capital, into goals. A little too much patience. Well, yeah. So they had to develop. Because the thing with soccer is once you show yourself, you show a new style, all the other coaches are going to be working to repel the style. And eventually defending deep, letting them have possession in areas which aren't dangerous was seen as the way to do it. And it worked. [19:16] They got figured out. Yeah, they got figured out. And here now we have this coach, Luis de la Fuente, who's no big coach, no big name, no famous Champions League winner, no big club pedigree. But he's come through the Spanish system, teaching these boys when they were adolescents, under 18, under 19, 21. And now here he is leading them with the national team. But what he's also done, they changed Spain.

[19:46] all of this passing, but we're also going to add [19:49] pace and power down the sides and where that comes from primarily is this superstar the teenager the 19 year old just remind us why he's so special [20:19] Wonderful from Yamaha. This guy is playing soccer at the highest level, as if he was having a kick around with his friends in the park. And now the goal! Goal! [20:34] He is playing against some of the world's best players and making it look easy. Back pose, there it is! There he is! Lamine Yamaha, first career World Cup goal! Maybe the first of many times. [20:49] He's thrilling to watch. You just don't know what he's going to do next as well. He's unpredictable and he seems to be able to deliver under pressure. Yamal, Omo, Yamal, release his stadium wide. That was beautiful football. And now he gets the stage to do that at a World Cup final where the pressure is going to be at its highest.

[21:19] . [21:21] And am I right that he hasn't had a terrific World Cup up until this point? [21:26] He hasn't. He hasn't to his standards. But again, that also speaks to what Spain is. Spain is not a national team that you have a star and you play for him. Spain is process. Spain is process and repetition, repetition and process. And in there is Lamin Yamal. He has to do the work as well. And Spain have largely managed to... [21:54] ease their way through this competition, go through the gears, find a level they needed to against the opposition they faced. They did that against France. I do think if the moment arises... [22:07] and the ball is at this young man's feet, we might be in for something magical. [22:12] Okay, so Spain has its system of suffocating keep away, a potential X factor in this young, unpredictable phenom. The only thing standing in their way is... Lionel Messi. [22:42] See you next time. [22:44] We'll be right back.

[22:51] If you can dream it, Anthropics Cloud can help you make it. Cloud is the AI for problem solvers, like Kei Ju, CTO and co-founder at GenSpark, an all-in-one workspace. We are a very small startup, so Anthropics model actually changed everything about how we work together as a team. What will GenSpark be in two years? My answer is, I don't know. A lot of new things will happen, and it will even seem like magic. [23:21] Problem Solvers. [23:24] Hi, I'm Neeraj from Madison, Wisconsin. I would like to share my subscription for NY Times with my family members. I should be able to share recipes from NYT cooking, wire cutter articles, or athletic articles. We are a family of four. I would like them to have access to the subscription too. Thank you. [23:54] slash family. [23:57] Tariq, the time has come to discuss this man. [24:02] Messi, the man many consider to be the greatest soccer player of all time. Before we get into who he is, let's just establish why. [24:11] We're going to talk about him. If Spain is a system with a young star attached to it, Argentina... [24:19] is kind of a star with a system designed entirely around him.

[24:25] Do you agree? Yeah, this guy, Lionel Messi, he's almost 40. And yet, he is the fulcrum of this team. Lionel Messi! Goal! [24:42] Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! Lionel! He has been... [24:48] one of the standout players of this tournament and certainly the engine of this team. They play for him. Everything is designed in this Argentina model. [25:00] to get Lionel Messi on the ball and for him to deliver. And he has done that throughout this tournament. Hang on up for Messi! There's more history! There's the Magic Man again! It's sensational from Lionel Messi, and we would expect absolutely nothing less. Let's not forget, he started this tournament with question marks about, oh, is this guy too old? Is it one tournament too many? [25:30] Yes, I remember that. And what does he do? First career World Cup hat-trick ties the all-time goal-scoring record. He scores three goals in the first game of the World Cup. And there's your answer. And Argentina have had a perilous, perilous journey through this competition. But Lionel Messi has always been there.

[25:56] Okay, let's run it back, Tariq. Just... [25:58] Give me the basics of who Messi is. A little bio here. Yeah, Lionel Messi is from Rosario in Argentina, and he shows this great soccer talent, but he has this growth problem, and he needs this medication that his family can't afford, and he ends up moving to Spain. Not just moving to Spain, he ends up moving to Barcelona, this finishing school, the best there is for global soccer. [26:28] Lionel Messi has written in the history of global football, I don't think could ever be written again. What he has done is just phenomenal. Not just the numbers, but the artistry, the way he plays. It is honestly an absolute privilege to have been around at the time of Lionel Messi. And for those millions of Argentinians, he brings them so much joy. [26:58] his team. I've read that the Spanish coach Pep Guardiola, Messi's former coach, has told people not to write about Messi or even try to describe him because the only way to understand him was to watch him. But [27:10] Can you, Tarek, just try to describe what makes him so special? He just plays like no one else we've ever seen. It is like someone has him at the end of a video controller and is just sort of slaloming through the opponents. And then if he needs to ping one into the top corner, he'll do that. And if he needs to just sort of chip one into the path of his teammate, he gets exactly the right flight and the right control.

[27:40] as if the ball is controlled by some sort of mechanism. It's like he has another sense that the rest of his opponents can't see. And he magically appears in the right places. And to just see him, this tiny, ordinary-looking fellow, has magic in his feet. It is such a sight to see. And the thing is, when you see him in the arena itself, there is an intake of breath. You feel it. [28:10] from when the ball is at his feet, something is going to happen because Lionel Messi is on the ball. And also, you've seen Argentina come through this tournament, and it's clearly not just being him. But because they have him in the team, it does give them hope that whatever the circumstance the team finds itself in, they're going to be okay because they've got Messi in the team. [28:34] Can you just describe that, that relationship that these group of men on this team have to this star? [28:42] They are so devoted to this guy. It's almost like they have a figure from another world, an alien he's been called, in their ranks. And they do everything they can to protect him. And there was a moment. [28:58] In this semi-final victory over England, it was the first half, Lionel Messi is taken out by an England midfielder. And suddenly, from all corners of the field, this like posse of bodyguards, if you want, arrive to protect him, to defend his honour. You can't do that to Lionel Messi. And in that moment, you get the sense of how important he is to them and just how much they revere him.

[29:27] Tarek, before the tournament started, you told me that this team would probably not be in the final at all. I hate to do this to you, but why were you wrong? What happened? Well, I was even more emphatic than that. What I said was, Los Siento, amigos, Argentina will lose against the first good team they play. And there is a massive amount of egg on my face right now, and my Argentinian friends are letting me know about that. That said... [29:56] Argentina have had a fairly troubled run, and they really labored to these victories. But there is something about this team, beyond Lionel Messi as well. There is a suffering that they are able to endure to get through the other side. [30:26] final without a bead of sweat on their forehead. A well-oiled machine. Argentina, there's so much friction. It almost feels like the stadium is on fire every time they've played. The fans are crying. The players are crying. The emotional outpouring required to get through each of these games is just wild. And yet they've been able to do it. And again, against England, they were [30:53] minutes from elimination and then stepped up again against Switzerland, Egypt, Egypt,

[31:00] should be eliminated. Cape Verde being taken to the wire. You see it again and again. Right. They are the comeback kings of this tournament, indisputably led by Messi, who never looks like he thinks he's going to lose. And it sort of seems as though nothing can stop him. [31:18] Well, we're going to find that out because in Spain, they're kind of diametrically opposed to Argentina for all the passion, all the suffering, all the reliance on this country. [31:31] genius to bail them out. Spain is... [31:35] A team that never seems to be panicked, believes in its process, is mechanical almost in its play, and just sort of steamrolls through its opponents. It's system over passion. This is the rivalry. This is the final we're going to see. What's going to win here? Is it going to be that studious years of development of Spanish football that's taken them to another final? [32:05] Argentine passion, the will to suffer, the will to go through the fire. And with this guy, with this genius, the belief that whatever they face on the field, [32:17] It's okay. [32:19] Lionel Messi will get us out of the hole. Tarek will you be there? Are you gonna be at the final? I will be and I'm very very excited and interested to see how this turns out. What a month it has been. Yeah what are you gonna do when this is all over? What am I gonna do? Well what I'm gonna do is uh.

[32:42] do some laundry. A month on the road is not kind to your clothes. [32:48] All right. Well, for now, we are looking forward to this game. I'll be watching from my couch, but I feel like in a way we will all be watching with you. Thank you so much for being our guide to such a special World Cup. Thanks for having me. [33:12] and Claire Tennisgetter. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg. Contains music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Elisaba Etoop, and Diane Wong. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. [33:27] That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrowef. See you tomorrow. [33:34] Thank you. [33:38] Thank you. [33:45] Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. Watch the new series, The Problem Solvers, at claude.com slash problem solvers. Learn how startup founders around the world are getting further with Claude. That's claude.com slash problem solvers.