The Race to Replace Graham Platner

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[01:33] Welcome to Positive America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. And I'm Alex Wagner. John is off this week. On today's show, Graham Plattner suspends his campaign against Susan Collins, and now there's a very crowded, very chaotic race to succeed him. [01:44] The war on Iran appears to be starting back up again, even though Donald Trump is confused about the name of the country he's attacking. That's a real thing. Then former North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper talks to me about the campaign for Senate. [01:56] Alex, thanks for being here today and replacing John. It's a pleasure, although, I mean, we all miss John. Whenever he's away, crazy shit happens, Stan. It's true. He spends his vacations in the middle of... [02:10] online fiascoes. [02:11] That's either here nor there. Okay. Let's start with the Platner news. Two long days after Politico broke the story that Platner had allegedly raped a former girlfriend. Platner posted an 11-minute video on Wednesday evening saying he would file the formal paperwork to withdraw his name from the ballot, but also sharing a lot of other thoughts, too. Let's take a listen. I think as many of you know, over the past couple of days, I have faced some very serious allegations, and I just want to make it clear that I've been a very serious person. [02:38] This is all false. I think it's really important to understand [02:42] why this is happening. [02:44] in the timeline. [02:46] why this is happening right now. I only have until July 13th. [02:50] until I am officially the nominee. [02:53] This was the last week. [02:55] to try to get me off of the ballot. And that's why this is occurring. It's not the false allegations, though, that have brought us to where we are. It's the fact that they're being used by the political establishment to put structural pressure on us. What comes next needs to come from the people.

[03:25] to dictate to anyone who it should be or how we get there. But I will say this, it needs to be open, transparent and democratic. As of this recording on Thursday afternoon, Planner has not actually filed the paperwork to have his name removed. The deadline is 5 p.m. Eastern time on Monday, but there is reporting that he will wait until then to do it. [03:45] Alex, what are your thoughts on his decision to drop out and the message in that video? [04:15] greatly complicates the race and potentially throws it further into jeopardy. And there's no mention. We thankfully did not play the whole video, but he never mentions any of the women who came forward on the record talking about violence and aggression, if not outright assault and rape. He never mentions and pushes back on any of those things. He just says this is all part of a deep state plot. I mean, it's totally outrageous, but maybe the most egregious part of it, I think, [04:45] The fact that he suggests the system is hopelessly flawed and corrupted and that machine politics would not abide an insurgent grassroots campaign. The mission of the establishment right now is to quash real reform and real accountability, which is –

[05:04] You can have jaded views about the establishment, and I'm sure there's every reason for Graham Plattner to have some of those and for some of his supporters to. But right now, if the goal really is to oust Susan Collins, Graham Plattner needs to make people – he does not need to further disillusion – [05:21] his supporters. He does not need to spin paranoid conspiracy theories. He does not need anybody in democratic politics in Maine to feel like this system is entirely rigged against them. He needs people to believe that there can be a good outcome. He needs to put whatever momentum he has left into the next candidate. And he's done exactly the opposite. I mean, I just think it's completely [05:49] Take on this is the subject line of your excellent newsletter, subject newsletter, How the Hell, which is Fuck Graham Plattner. I agree with everything you said. What is so infuriating about this is – [06:03] If he truly cared about getting people health care, about stopping a genocide, about making the economic and political system more fair in this country, the – [06:13] None of those things can happen if we do not beat Susan Collins. Exactly. And by going down this path of conspiracy theories to, as you say, to dissolution of supporters, he is making that less likely. [06:24] He's making it harder to accomplish things he did. This video is Trumpian. [06:29] in its nature. [06:30] It is conspiracy theories. It's denial. It's making it entirely about himself. Now, throughout this video, he talks about how the movement they built and how whatever the process is that the main Democratic Party must be true to that movement. Now, it is impressive for a –

[06:49] First time political candidate. [06:51] to beat the two-term... [06:54] governor of the state and beat the DSCC and Chuck Schumer and all that. That is an impressive thing. But like, just... [07:00] Don't crawl so far up your own ass. You've got 150,000 votes in Maine. [07:05] This is not the Robert Kennedy 1968 campaign. This is not the Obama 2008 campaign. It is the smart thing for the party to do to have a process that brings in the people who supported Grand Planner because we do obviously need them to win. But this whole thing that this was some magical messianic thing that he put together, he himself and he only he put together and it must pay respect to the to what he did. It's just fucking ridiculous. It's counterproductive. [07:34] Just go away is the best thing he can do for the things he claims he cares about. Of course he's waiting till Monday. It's like, first of all, time is of the essence. It's like paraphrasing the bear. Every second counts. And this asshole is waiting till Monday just because? Give me a fucking break. Secondly, to what end? To what? Why? File the paperwork. Be done. We need to move. Everybody needs to move on. I say this in my newsletter and I genuinely believe it. [08:00] Let Dan, we have a long history here, but let this be like the last conversation. [08:04] we have to have about Graham Plattner because the focus needs to be on Susan Collins. And we're going to get to Susan Collins after we finish their next 15 minutes talking about Graham Plattner. We are, no, well, no, I think, because I will say... [08:15] And I've said this before, and I'm sure you agree with me on this. I'm sure.

[08:20] There needs to be at some point a real – I don't want to use proctology as the word, but like a real – [08:28] examination, a soul searching about [08:32] um, [08:34] the lessons learned here. Oh, we're going to do that today on this podcast in just a moment. [08:41] Bless you. I'm getting ahead of myself. Oh, yes. But before we get to that, because I do want to have a conversation about how we got to this moment, and I want to talk a little bit about where you were right and I was wrong and why that was, which we will get to, I promise. But I want to talk first about what happens next. I previewed some of this on Polar Coaster, my show for Friends of the Pod subscribers. If you aren't a subscriber yet, I really don't know what you're doing with your life, and maybe you should visit cricket.com slash friends to change that. Yeah. [09:09] But anyhow. [09:10] I'm a believer. Provided that Plattner does formally drop out. The main Democratic Party has until July 27th to replace them. They've said they'll hold a convention to pick a new nominee and we'll make all the details public soon, although there's been a lot of reporting on what it is and they claim that transparency will be of the utmost importance. What do you make of the convention idea? Is there a better one or is there a way not to make this process so messy? No, listen, I'm the last one to have a better idea, but I would like to see, I mean, there's [09:40] and debates. I mean, I think there has to be some before these delegates make the call, if it is, in fact, the leadership of the state party that is going to decide who the nominee is. One,

[09:51] One would hope there would be some concession to both, you know, those delegates and the public in the sort of the and the notion of choice by. [10:02] having a full or full-ish airing of their views. And that's obviously going to have to be fairly abbreviated, but there needs to be some deference to – [10:12] you know, helping educate the public. [10:15] and the delegates about who these people are. I've done a glancing search on the internet, but that's not sufficient. And they haven't had to talk about their positions in a fulsome way. So I think that, you know, they're neat. I would love to see some kind of public format where whether it's debate, town hall, whatever, that's moderated. And that's, you know, official feeling beyond just interviews with the press and podcast appearances. [10:40] Yes. And so the way that we think this is going to happen is there would be this convention, and I think would sort of model what would be like a brokered convention at a national party convention in an election year. And there would be, I think it's upwards of 500 delegates, the 16, I believe, counties in Maine, county parties would elect delegates. I think it's over 600 delegates. 600 delegates from the 16 counties. So this is going to be party insiders under... [11:07] All circumstances. And like, there's just no way for actual you can't hold an election in this time period. So it's going to be this. This is probably this is going to be messy for sure. There's going to be, you know, candidates are going to try to talk about who the cancer in a second, but they're going to try to influence who the delegates are in all these places. They're going to put up slates. It's good. It's going to be messy. Now, this is probably the best process.

[11:30] if you want to involve as many people as possible and have the most transparency, because the other alternative is the state party committee just votes. [11:37] And, you know, this is the, this is, you know, we're in a weird, bizarro version of 2024 where we're losing a nominee, very close to an election about the same number of days, actually. And instead of what happened in 2024, we're just one candidate automatically becomes a nominee. We're going to have, [11:55] a process of some kind and these people are going to compete and maybe one of them will come and stand out. And hopefully at the end of this process, we're going to come together. So there are no good answers here, I guess is my point. [12:04] But you know what? I'm looking forward to the mess. I think everybody is hungry for... [12:10] some sense that there's a real [12:15] choice and there are real races and this is not a foregone conclusion on the part of party elders and it's not a fait accompli and Maine is pretty I'm like from my podcast Runaway Country we interviewed one of the people Dan Kleban who's I know we're going to talk about this one of the potential replacements for Plattner and there is so much frustration at the idea that Washington and Chuck Schumer and outsiders and elders know better and have involved themselves in this race [12:45] come what may. [12:46] Yeah. So as for who might run, potential candidates started testing the waters even before Platinum City was leaving the race. Here's a small sample of how they're pitching themselves. [12:55] So I'm the only candidate that's demonstrated that I can win statewide with conservative Republicans and urban young people that are much more liberal. Maine deserves a fighter in this seat, and I will be that fighter. I will fight for Medicare for all, because in the wealthiest country on Earth, nobody.

[13:13] should ever go bankrupt over a medical bill. - I own a small business here in Maine. I created, built it from the ground up out of my garage, you know, employ over 100 Mainers, pay a living wage, [13:24] provide 100% of their health insurance coverage. I mean, I'm an outsider. I'm not an elected, I'm not a career politician. I've never held elected office. That was former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson, the state's former top health official Nirav Shah, and brewery owner Dan Klebin on your podcast, Alex, Runaway Country. Indeed. They've all said they will run. So have Secretary of State Shanna Bellows, [13:46] former congressional candidate and political operative Jordan Wood, former Plattner staffer and congressional candidate Paige Loud, former Senate candidate David Costello, state rep Valley Geiger is considering running too, although she hasn't officially said so. It's a lot of people. Do you find anyone compelling in this crowd? What do you make of them? I mean, listen, I talked to Dan Kleben, who's the bar owner, the brewery owner. Nothing goes together like oysters and beer. [14:13] And he was going to run. [14:16] last week, [14:17] He has an interesting backstory insofar as he was going to run in last July and was told not to by the DSCC, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which is, of course, under the aegis of the purview of Chuck Schumer and is an example of just how fucked this process has been since its inception. Right. And later dropped out of the race and endorsed when he entered the race. But Plattner had sort of won the hearts and minds of a lot of Mainers at that point. He subsequently endorsed the governor, Janet Mills, and then dropped out of the race.

[14:47] as kind of a sort of surrogate for the everyman working class Maynor that Plattner represented, even if some of his biography was a bit hazy around the edges as far as his working class Bonifides. Troy Jackson sounds like his person that most, you know, he's gotten an endorsement from Ro Khanna, who was a key endorsement for Grant Plattner, at least from a national Democrat. He, I believe, is a fifth generation logger from Allagash, which is like, [15:17] So bless Maine and all their outdoorsiness, brewers and oystermen and loggers. He's the former president of the Maine Senate. He has some experience. He's, you know, I think he has the progressive bona fides that people are looking for. I got to stop saying the word bona fides. Nirav Shah is a really interesting one. He was acting, I think, director of the CDC for a minute as well. Which makes me a little worried, given that the CDC has become very politicized. [15:47] someone who is going to be asked about COVID. It's just like, I am not a COVID, a vaccine denier or a COVID skeptic, but it's extra baggage in these insane and tumultuous times. I don't know. What do you think? I am all tapped out on having opinions on main Senate candidates. The truth is, I don't know any of these people well enough to know who would be a good candidate. Sad thing is, we're not really going to know when it comes time to pick the person. This is a very abbreviated [16:17] there is someone in democratic politics who was investing more than the $6,000 that the Yahoos who recruited Graham Plattner used to vet him and to do like full vets on all of these people so that everyone knows everything you possibly can know. Because whoever this person is going to be under massive scrutiny. Because if like one of the tests will be – like normally a main Senate candidate does something not obviously –

[16:45] what Graham Plattner's been accused of here, but, you know, had some bad online, you know, in a different world, a different race, some bad online posts or something else, it'd be like a little speed bump. In this race, with this level of scrutiny, after what happened with Plattner, will be... [16:58] giant news. You've got to make sure whoever we pick can withstand that scrutiny. I guess that's sort of the main thing. Yeah. Two weeks. No big deal. Great times to do. Like vetting town halls, convention, no problem. But thank God Grand Plattener is waiting until Monday to drop out. Yeah. Yeah. Because we definitely can use the next 72 hours or so. [17:15] It's fitting you're here for this episode because as many of our listeners know, every time there's been big Grand Partner news or Maine news, it's just been a coincidence. You and I have been on mic together, either on Pod Save America, on your podcast, on YouTube. [17:31] At one point, Dan, we talked about doing just a Maine Senate podcast. Pod Save Maine. We will not be doing that now. Pod Save the Maine. Why? If there's still a Senate race going on. Okay, I'm just kidding. We don't need to focus only on Maine. [17:45] foxhole we've been. Yes. We've talked about Maine more than anything else over the last year here. [17:59] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We're finally talking about mental health openly, but actually reaching out for help is still incredibly difficult. New data from BetterHelp confirms why. BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so.

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[20:13] months or $180 for 12 months plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required availability speeding coverage vary cement mobile.com. [20:32] And it needs to be said, you've been a Platinum skeptic from the beginning, the very beginning before anyone before the Reddit post came out before the tattoo before the more recent stuff, you were a Platinum skeptic. [20:42] And I will say here, [20:44] you were right [20:46] And I was wrong. [20:48] I don't want to be right, man. I did not. This is not about me being right and you being wrong. [20:54] I was I even right. I don't even know what that means. I just. Well, you were right to be skeptical of grandpa. I was. Yes, I guess I was skeptical. Would you like to take a victory lap? I do not want to take a victory lap. This is not a good moment for. I mean, first of all, it's not a good moment. [21:09] for Graham Plattner. It's not a good moment for the women that he allegedly tormented and assaulted. It's not a good moment for the Democratic Party, because I think we're at a real crossroads here in terms of how the Democratic Party manages candidate recruitment and what it means to answer the toxic masculinity of MAGA. And it's not a good moment because the focus has been taken off

[21:39] out of this, there's a little bit [21:42] And the thing about Graham, I was not like some sage and like saw into the future or anything, but I was always just the bro glow was a little bit. I didn't get it. I didn't like the way I was never a Janet Mills supporter, but I didn't like people summarily dismissed her. And I felt like I just summarily dismissed her. Yes. And that's not to say that she should be the nominee. But I feel like there's like there was always like latent misogyny around it. [22:12] Insights 2020 or whatever, but there are a lot of women in a lot of places who were like never are really that on board and kind of felt a little bit sheepish saying, I don't know about that guy. He seems kind of like an asshole. I mean, I got into fights with Plattner supporters, you know, where the context of the conversation was he has talent. He might be able to get the job done, but he seems like a dick. And there was a real and like the dickishness may not just be [22:42] ambition, but maybe like a more complicated and potentially serious character flaw. And as it turns out, I think that's what it was. This is someone who's completely self-absorbed to the point of maybe almost like a certain psychosis based on that exit video and certainly has some demons he really needs to wrestle with. Yeah. You know, I when I say summarily dismissed Mills, let me say what my actual reposition

[23:12] I, Janet Mills gets in the race. [23:15] And the DSCC endorses her five minutes later. Chuck Schumer endorses her. And we know at the time that the DSCC has been trying to clear the field for Janet Mills, telling people like Hannah Pingree and these other candidates in Maine to run for governor, not run for Senate. [23:31] because Janet Mills is going to be, is the chosen candidate of the democratic establishment. My view at the time was, [23:38] I thought that was a big mistake for the DSCC. [23:40] That if the DSCC is going to get involved in a primary, they better be involved. [23:44] 100% certain that they have the best candidate. And I didn't think you could look at [23:49] What happened with Susan Collins in 2020? What happened in the country in 2024? And declare beyond a shadow of a doubt that... [23:58] a 79-year-old unpopular two-term governor was our best bet. [24:03] I wasn't convinced Grim Plattner was a better bet, but I thought the voters of Maine should pick it up. [24:07] Now, I was intrigued by Platinum for sure. I'm not going to take that. I'm not going to dispute that. I've been thinking a lot because I was wrong here. I don't like being wrong. It happens a lot. But I've really tried to think about where – [24:21] like where I aired in this. And there are a couple of places, and so I'll say what those were. The first is, I have a bias, or you can even say a blind spot, in politics. It's for... [24:36] outsider candidates who did not grow up their entire life wanting to be in office. That's why I like Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton. That's why I really loved Beto O'Rourke when he was running for Senate and was intrigued by his potential as presidential candidate. It's why I supported Mallory McMorrow in the Michigan Senate race this cycle. That's what gets me most interested are candidates like that. I think they have the potential to be the best

[25:06] They're more human. They talk more like a human. [25:08] And they're less risk averse. You know, the people who spent their whole lives deciding like what mistakes not to make to avoid being to avoid coming off their path to higher office generally are not living authentic lives. Yes. And I think that makes you a better candidate. It absolutely does. Now, that will blow up in your face a bunch because those are those candidates are by definition. [25:30] Higher risk. They have higher ceilings and lower floors. And like and so that's why I was intrigued by Plattner. Like I thought to beat Susan Collins, you needed a higher higher variance candidate, someone who could do something different than Sarah Gideon did or all of the people who came before. And I was not convinced that Janet Mills could do that. And I do believe that that was actually the right. [25:48] call, not that Plattner was the right person. Obviously, he was not, but that Janet Mills was the wrong candidate. Yeah, and we see that now. That's borne out in polling that we have even now. And, you know, and so – and then the second – the thing that, you know – [26:02] that I feel... [26:03] I'm mad at myself about is, you know, as we went through this process, uh, when you and I had first had this conversation there, we knew nothing about plan. And then we saw the online posts and, uh, [26:13] The things he said were horrible, and I thought there was a real chance that that could be disqualifying both in the primary and the general to voters, right? But I did believe – [26:22] And naively, apparently, the story he told about being a person who was dealing with PTSD at a dark time in their life in drinking and did a bunch of things and then and then. [26:32] change their life, improve. And I do believe that we should...

[26:36] All right. [26:37] Pat leaves space for people who make mistakes to still be in politics. [26:41] Of course. I think redemption and empathy are like things we need to cultivate as a society beyond politics. [26:48] And I believed that – and I believed – and I actually still believe this. The story he told about how he got the tattoo – [26:56] Was true. [26:57] Now, what I've come to – like I do not believe that he knew it was a Nazi tattoo, and I certainly don't believe he was a secret Nazi for all the very, very many – Yeah, I'm with Tim Miller on this though. I think he got it, then figured out what it was, and then kind of used it as a cocktail point. Look at my Nazi tattoo. He certainly knew about it. Yes. I think he lied about when he discovered that it was a Nazi tattoo. That I have come to believe. But I don't – this is a guy who was not shy about sharing his opinions online, so I feel like if he really was a Nazi, we would know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [27:27] Now, you could say that [27:28] One thing people say is anyone who gets a Nazi tattoo, for whatever reasons, has bad judgment. And that may be, but a lot of people in their 20s, when they're on leave from war and drunk, have bad judgment. I mean, you have a Celtic band around your forcep, right? I have no tattoos. I have a bunch of back tattoos, a bunch of butterflies that – [27:47] I regret now. But not the shamrock on my ankle. I love that. They're not Nazi butterflies, correct? Correct. [27:54] I actually have no back tattoos. I don't know. I'm not that girl, Dan. I don't have a toe ring. [28:02] Anywho. The other thing I regret, and this is where I really started to get very worried about Grand Plattener was...

[28:10] When the story came out in May about him sexting other women while married. And it's not that people can't make mistakes in their marriage and still run for office. That happens all the time. It was that that happened so recently that it really brought into question the redemption story that I had read. [28:28] naively believed from him. It's one thing to make mistakes in a different part of your life. And then the story he told was, he made a bunch of mistakes. He changed his life. [28:37] He started working. He got into politics. But that wasn't the story. That wasn't the reality. But even then, it was like his wife said they worked through with counseling. We all followed their fertility journey to get like it just seemed like they had put it behind them. But it really made me wonder, like, what the next thing was. Right. And and then he lied to everybody. [28:55] And many lied to everybody. But the thing when I look back on all of that is don't believe a liar is a really like that's not helpful advice because – [29:05] You don't know someone's a liar until you find out later. What I think I should have paid more attention to was that back in March, you and I did a political experts react where we were looking at ads that were running in that race. This included the first negative ad that Janet Mills launched against Plattner, which had a bunch of women reading, like reacting to the things that Plattner had posted.

[29:35] has been in my head for the last few weeks here, is like the... [29:39] What he said about minimizing rape and that sort of inherent misogyny. [29:45] should have been a much bigger flag. Like that is a sign of something else that I like, I wish, [29:53] I had... [29:54] I wish I'd paid more attention to that in this discussion. And that was separate and apart from some of the other things that he said that were just stupid and offensive. That was dangerous and offensive. That just for I'm going to paraphrase it a little bit, but that was the Reddit post where he said people should take some responsibility and not get so fucked up that they end up having sex with someone they don't mean to, which is deeply ironic considering the allegations against him. Can I ask you something, Dan? [30:24] know what I think about this because we talk a lot about Schumer and obviously this was just a totally fakakta situation where the DSCC is intervening to the detriment of the race. But like Chuck Schumer is also picking candidates in a lot of other swing states. Yeah. [30:38] And in putting the heft of the DSCC behind people like Mary Peltola and Roy Cooper and Sherrod Brown and people who are good candidates for those races. And maybe they would have gotten there. [30:52] regardless of Schumer's involvement. But like, are we, and I genuinely don't have an answer to this. Are we focused on this because he just did such a colossally bad fucking job picking the candidate in this race? I, what he did in Alaska was,

[31:08] North Carolina. [31:09] in Ohio was he recruit candidates who could clear the field themselves. [31:14] They were candidates so good, so well-known, so universally believed to be the best candidate that no one would run against them. [31:20] So it wasn't like there were a bunch of other people running that Janet Mills was not that candidate. She was didn't even want to run. Yeah, that's the other thing. Right. And and also Maine is a state with lots of Democrats. Alaska, you know, there's only one. The recruitment list for Alaska was Murray Paltola. There was no one else. Right. It was Paltola or bust. Ohio. [31:41] It was Sherrod Brown, and there was a long gap between one and two on that list. North Carolina, you got a few more Democrats who could have run, but Roy Cooper was far at the top of that list. So once you got those, it was it. [31:51] It's where I didn't like what they did in Michigan back in Haley Stevens. There's a Texas element of all this as well. They could end up not working out very well. Who knows? Yeah. My general view is Chuck Schumann, the DSEC overall should recruit candidates. They should. If they think someone's the best, Chuck Schumann's going to try to convince them to do it. They should do that. When there was an active primary going on and then they put their thumb on the scale and they take that choice away from the voters. Now, when I first... [32:19] wrote this and was first upset about it, it's because the DSEC-backed candidate always won the primary. Politics has changed so much in the last two years that that's actually become... [32:28] An albatross around people's necks as opposed to like this huge asset. But at the time it was you're the DSC. You could pick the candidate and take the essentially take the agency away from the voter, which is what they were trying to do in Maine. That did not work in Maine. Yeah.

[32:43] And so, you know, you know, that it's like it's not that the DSEC and Schumer were wrong in every instance. It's just they were wrong in this one. Yeah. Well, and the dynamics of it are particular and the outcome could have been meaningfully different if. [32:57] Chuck Schumer hadn't tried to clear the field and do what he did. And in fact, I think in some ways elevate Plattner in the course of all of that. Right. He became a poster child for defiance and grassroots activism and and, you know, saying fuck you to politics as usual. So the same thing happened in Michigan, where by putting the thumb on the scale for politics. [33:18] Haley Stevens, he elevated Abdul. And then one of the worst things that happened to Mallory Morrow was a report, I think in Politico or somewhere else, that said Schumer would be fine with either Haley or Mallory. So all of a sudden, Abdul got to go out and say all the time, I'm the only candidate that Chuck Schumer opposes in this race. And continues, I mean, continues to do that yesterday. The thing I've been struggling with this conversation, and this has been a [33:41] I would say it's not been a fun time online for a podcast associated with Graham Plattner. [33:47] Speak for yourself. I'm just kidding. I mean, as you should, you should have your moment. [33:54] But is that been fun? It hasn't been fun. I've tried to struggle with what. [33:59] like the broader lesson is here. [34:01] Thank you. [34:02] Because it shouldn't be that outsider candidates are bad. [34:05] But Dan, you're speaking so broadly. Like this guy – [34:10] You didn't have to know that he was a dick from the beginning. But once the Reddit posts started coming out,

[34:16] Like, I'm all for redemption, but there were a lot of data points. [34:28] who's on CNN today, who is saying, basically taking platinum, comparing him to Abdul El-Sayed, and saying, like, also unvetted, same consultants, and, well, it's just absurd because Abdul has run for governor, and has been a government official in Michigan for a while, so that's an absurd comparison, but is this idea that people who are [34:50] Bye. [34:51] outsiders or first time candidates are risk inherently risky because they haven't been tested. They've been vetted by the system. Right. That's what I mean. Nobody should take a broad lesson about outsiders from the Plattner. Yes, because here are two other people who have had huge sexual misconduct, sexual assault problems who are the insider candidates of Eric Swalwell and Andrew Cuomo. [35:13] Right. Right. There's nothing about being a creep that is exclusive to first-time candidates. It's also true. I mean, the other thing that – you know, the other – [35:22] As we think about this and what it all means, one – [35:26] story that people can tell, and it's not an incorrect story, is that a bunch of podcast bros and democratic strategists and other dumb men online fell for... [35:39] the shtick of this narcissist, right? And that it was true that, [35:45] um, a lot of women, a lot of women in my life that I regret not listening to like you and Sarah Longwell and other people who have raised these flags. Um,

[35:54] And this was like dumb men and... [35:58] Much more insightful women. And the loudest voices, I think, criticizing Plattner, particularly nationally, were women. [36:04] But then you look in Maine... [36:07] And Plattner beat Mills was beating Mills by like 15 points among women. [36:12] A majority of that 150,000 votes was women. And so I just, you know, I was just reading Rebecca Tracer's, this very insightful piece and thoughtful piece about her support of Grant Plattner. [36:21] Well, Michelle Goldberg has one as well. Yeah. [36:23] Can I say something? Well, to your point about the podcast bros and other guys, I think and I feel like I always sound like – [36:33] you know, a Brown University professor when I say this, there is a real crisis right now in terms of how the left responds to MAGA style masculinity and like what it means to be tough and a warrior, but also progressive and a populist. And like, what is that special alchemy? And like we got the left needs to build that person. They need someone who can be the antidote to all of the just utterly toxic, garbage, male sort of stuff. [37:01] the masculinity that is being showcased on the right, which is ultra retrograde, misogynist and bad for the country, setting aside bad for women. And like Plattner was a unicorn in that way. He felt like, OK, here's someone who's legitimately a progressive and he's a man's man and all this. And that was, I think, intoxicating to a group of men in particular who are looking for that answer.

[37:31] in the world who's a progressive, it's a weird, complicated time, which doesn't mean we should overly focus on men. I get it. But it is a problem. I mean, I have two boys. Like there is a dearth of real kind of like there's there's no playbook for how to be a guy in this moment. And I think if you're in the world of politics and you're in media, you know, [37:52] You're kind of trying to you're bouncing between archetypes and you're trying to figure out like, OK, what's the way to be? What should we be supporting and championing? And Plattner was very attractive in that way. [38:16] I mean, he was an excellent communicator, if you listen to his interviews. We did the New York Times podcast. The interview he did with our friend Ben Rhodes about post-9-11 wars, he – [38:27] Like, I mean, he was interesting and thoughtful. And obviously, like, how he looked and how he sounded, you know, affected that. But it just... [38:37] was all bullshit is the problem, right? Yeah, no, he's a pig. Yeah. Like, but that's, and that's, what's so devastating is like, oh, what turns out actually like that, that, that brand of machismo is totally corrupted, which is, or, or this, his particular, his machismo, this particular vehicle, like there was something partner was offering both in Maine and nationally, uh,

[39:01] That was compelling to a lot of people. Yeah. The problem was that the person who was offering that was Graham Plattner. [39:07] Thank you. [39:08] Right. And so like, how do you like it's like we have to spend some time and we're not going to do it here. We can't do it here over time. Just figuring out like, what was it? I want to overstate how important this was once against 150,000 fucking people in Maine. This is not, you know, this is not. Right. But I mean, this was someone whose his advisor said that he could run for president in 2020. It wasn't going to end in May. [39:28] Yes, but every... [39:30] I've been around a lot of Senate candidates, consultants, they all want them to because it's very much in every in every consultant's interest. [39:37] Everyone wants to be David Axelrod, James Carville, you know, Karl Rove. And so they're looking for those people all the time. It doesn't mean they actually would, but he was a financial phenomenon. He broke out in a way that like, I mean, this is a bad example, but in a way that, [39:50] You know, Stacey, this is a good example. Stacey Abrams did, even though she didn't win, the way that Beto broke out. And so it's like, yeah, there was something there. And it's like, what was that? And how do you try to figure out what that is that's separate from... [40:03] the very damaged, very fucked up person, the pig, as you said. Okay, enough of Graham Plattner. [40:10] How much damage do you – like how fucked are we in Maine after all of this? Do we – like what kind of shot do you think we have against Susan Collins now? [40:18] I think and I mean, I think my advice would be say the word Susan Collins every time you want to say Graham Plattner over and over and over again, because she is weak. [40:29] But she is going to be a challenge. We don't need to go to the numbers. We've talked about them a lot, but she overperforms or she has in most elections she's been in recently. This is the first one she's going to have to face voters since Roe fell. So and I think that that's legit in a state that's what 60 percent of the electorate is female.

[40:49] You know, hopefully people remember the fact that she built the Supreme Court that overturned Roe. She was the critical vote in the Kavanaugh confirmation and. [41:02] fancies herself a moderate, which is complete horseshit. I don't know, Dan. I mean, I think that the fact that I take it as a positive sign in a way that Maine voters are so desperate or they're so fired up about getting Susan Collins out that they were willing to overlook the initial phase of Graham Plattner's very serious transgressions. I mean, that's, I guess, the silver lining, right? But I'm [41:29] You know, the party's got to manage this process in a way that doesn't further disillusion Democratic voters. [41:36] Graham Platter needs to shut the fuck up. [41:39] And the focus really needs to return like a laser to Susan Collins. [41:44] I think if we can... [41:46] Now, this is me being glass-effful. If we can pick the right person, and the right person might just be someone named generic Democrat with no tattoos. He doesn't know how to get to Reddit. [41:58] We are in a better place than we would have been with either Graham Plattner. [42:03] pre even let's say that this accusation never happened where Grant Plattner would have been. Yeah, just everything we knew up until two days ago. [42:11] that we have the tension for this new person to be stronger than that and stronger than – [42:15] Janet Mills would have been. Yeah. Cause even be like in that New York times, Santa Paul from two weeks ago, after all the sexting stuff, all this came out, Grim partner was still more popular than Janet Mills. Yeah.

[42:26] And so we have a chance here. I now, I, [42:29] This is a state where, using the same New York Times poll, Democrats leave the generic ballot by 11 points. They want the Senate to be in Democratic hands by 11 points, I believe, 11 or 12 points. [42:41] So there is like – and this is more Democratic than 2020. [42:47] people who profile as Democratic voters move to Maine, particularly to the Portland area, [42:51] Starting around COVID. [42:53] So it's actually a state that has grown from in-migration. So we should still be able to win the race. It's going to be really fucking hard. Collins is going to have so much money. She's had to spend almost none of it. There's going to be a gazillion dollars. Big war chest. And pack money. But I do think... [43:08] there's a chance we can make this all like every, this is what I was saying. This is my unsolicited advice to the partner people two weeks ago, which was like all this Epstein Island, you know, reordering politics, populism stuff is like, [43:24] All that matters is that Susan Collins... [43:27] no matter what else you feel about her, [43:29] A vote for her is a vote to let Donald Trump control the Senate and pick Supreme Court justices. [43:34] That's it. It doesn't matter how you feel about her. It doesn't matter if you liked her personally. It doesn't matter if she got money for the iron bathworks or whatever else. [43:43] is a vote for her is a vote. [43:46] to let Donald Trump pick two more Supreme Court justice. Full stop. Just... [43:50] Like that's what that's what people care about. That's what it's about. Don't let me mean anything else. Don't overcomplicate the fucking symbol. So I think I do believe we can still win this. It'll be totally great. And I interviewed Adam Jentleson, former deputy chief of staff to Harry Reid and chief of staff to John Fetterman in the podcast. And he he is aligned with you that this makes the Democrats chances are better now than they were a week ago when Plattner was still in the race before the Politico reporting. So there's that. There's that. That was like a therapy session, Dan.

[44:20] So I'm glad we could have this conversation. I feel very honored that you wanted to share those things with me. I'm actually, if John was not on vacation, I would have suggested that we swap him out for you. I feel better doing this with you. Well, thanks. [44:31] I mean, we've gone on a long road together. We've been on a long main journey. It's been a long, strange day. Yeah, we have. [44:45] Pod Save America is brought to you by Built. We can all agree that housing is expensive. Rent, mortgage, it doesn't matter which one you're paying. It stings every month. [44:52] But Bill can make it feel a little better. [44:54] Let's explain. BILT started out rewarding members on their rent. As of 2026, BILT members can also earn points on mortgage payments too. Every housing payment earns you points. [45:03] So you can use with top travel partners like United and Hyatt, or use your points toward Lyft rides, Amazon purchases, and so much more. You could take a fitness class. You can get a gift card at 120 brands. But here's the most underrated part. Built members also get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots, all while being rewarded at more than 45,000 merchant partners. It's like having a personal assistant baked into where you live. It's simple. Being a renter and now owning a home is better with Built. [45:33] the membership for where you live. [45:35] at joinbuilt.com slash crooked. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash crooked. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. [45:44] Potsy of America is brought to you by Cook Unity. I love Cook Unity. Can I tell you about a couple delicious-looking Cook Unity items? Mm-hmm. Yassa grilled chicken. It's Yassafi, technically, no. With sweet plantains, so it's like chickens and grains and plantains. And how about this one? Sriracha honey-glazed salmon bites with a kale crunch salad. Wow. That's just a perfect meal. I had a gyro from Cook Unity before work today. Delicious. That's what I ate after the gym. Everyone's like, what is Cook Unity?

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[47:49] Here he is at this week's NATO summit in Turkey. [47:52] Is the ceasefire over? Is the ceasefire done? Is the MOU dead? [47:57] It's a very interesting question. To me, I think it's over. I don't want to deal with them anymore. They're scum. We had 111 missiles shot by the Islamic Republic of Japan. [48:11] the islamic republic of japan that's a headline story i didn't even know i mean not only not only has become it become islamic they're also at war with the united states right now so so much happened while i was so knee deep in main politics we missed a lot of stuff around the world [48:33] So I'm sure Tommy and Ben covered this. Yeah. Well, thank God. Thank God we have them on watch. Yes. Things seem to be going well in the Middle East, huh? [48:43] Totally. The line out of the White House is according to Axios, I think today, we're going to slap around around a bit so they understand we're not fucking around. [48:53] That's the strategy here. They are saying that this... [48:58] Our next stage of war could be weeks. [49:01] Could be months. But the essence of this, Dan, is that Iran is not happy about the way things are going the Strait of Hormuz and they want to reclaim control of it. And that is. [49:12] is an unresolved dispute that is going to continue to fuck the global economy and could make life incredibly painful for Republicans heading into the midterms. And so, I mean, the idea that anything was resolved by a page and a half docusign, however many weeks ago that was, is a joke, as is this administration's foreign policy. I am not surprised that we are here.

[49:42] unclear as to how any of this resolves itself given the utterly we are at loggerheads with the iranians over the strait they want ships to pass through on their side of the strait and register with the wait for it hormuz transit authority can someone get me an hta hat um and i'm not [50:02] And instead, the U.S. is like – because that's how they're going to tax people or toll people or companies as they go through the strait. And the U.S. is like, you know, go the southern route. Don't register with the HTA. Use the side of the strait where Oman rules the water, if you will. That's not going over well with the Iranians, and now we're back at war because the fundamental issue at the heart of this is nowhere close to being resolved. [50:32] Section 5 of the ceasefire agreement that I would say Trump signed at Versailles is poorly written and has led to a lot of confusion about what a rating control of the street actually means. Yeah. [50:44] They never really worked it out because it was a page and a half, because it's a joke, because there was no diplomatic process. And it's just that they wanted to get gas prices down. Yeah, they wanted to say the street was open so that the market would improve and oil prices would start to go down, even if the street was not actually open. [51:02] It's insane. Now, gas prices have ticked up a little bit. They're not where they used to be. But, you know, when you are so ambiguous about how what the goal is, how this could possibly resolve itself, the diplomatic process seems I don't know. He says they're cuckoo. I'm done dealing with them. They're sickos. Like, I mean, half of that is bluster or three quarters of it is bluster. But I'm not I've never been that confident in Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff negotiating this process, though they are a crackerjack team of diplomats.

[51:32] And like what what confidence should we have that this doesn't stretch on off and on not being called a war forever? The only thing standing in Trump's way, I guess, is the appropriations process and the fact that he's asking Congress for another three hundred and fifty billion dollars. And Republicans may not be super stoked on doing that four months before the midterms. [51:48] Yeah, this goes to the point I like to make about this, which is anyone dumb enough to start this war is too dumb to get out of it, which is sort of where we are. [52:00] As you pointed out, oil prices and gas prices have gone up a little bit through this. The stock market's gone down. Ships are still passing through the strait, although it's still well below pre-war levels. One third. One third of pre-war levels. But the administration has finally taken at least one step to help with gas prices. Let's take a look. We're here at the first Freedom Fuel Network gas station right here in Philadelphia, leading [52:30] 47 cents. That's for our 47th president, President Donald J. Trump. When I saw it, I thought it was fake news, but I'm glad it's true. Thanks a lot, Trump. Just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing a good job. Thank you, President Trump. Thank you for helping our country. It's President Donald J. Trump leading the charge to lower gas prices right here at Freedom Fuel Network's gas stations. [52:51] You heard that right. The administration's big move is a network of so-called freedom fuel stations that are mostly in the larger Philadelphia area, and they are selling gas at $3.47 a gallon.

[53:04] 47 cents. Get it? Alex, I believe you have some thoughts on this initiative and I'm going to clear out and let you have them. [53:11] Um, okay. First of all, nobody knows who's behind these gas stations. They just like popped up around the Philly area. They used to be like Sunoco stations or Texaco stations. There's just like giant stickers on them. And nobody knows how they're pricing gas at 347 because newsflash, the reason gas prices are high is not because gas owners are stubborn and just need to be convinced, get on the bandwagon of cheap gas. It's because they have to be because the market is at where it's at. [53:41] They have in terms of sense and like, you know, on the margins. But when gas is over four dollars a gallon, it's not because they've gotten greedy. It's because that's where the market is. That's where the price of crude. So this is all. [53:54] smoke and mirrors. This is like a gas station Potemkin village. And I sort of delight in it because it is further proof that Donald Trump is a socialist. These gas stations or gas station owners are clearly getting some kind of government subsidy to lower gas to 347. It is meaningfully lower than other area gas stations. And it fits in the suite of decisions Donald Trump has made to have the heavy hand of government get involved in private enterprise, whether that's, [54:24] extorting NVIDIA and Intel for stock that the government controls in order to get licenses or in order to establish trading overseas, whether that's the tariffs, whether that's the heavy hand of the Trump administration involved in the media and censorship. I mean, this is all the behavior of, I don't know, like someone like Maduro or Putin or take your pick. This is not what free market capitalism is supposed to look like.

[54:54] it is socialism, sometimes communism, maybe outright fascism and authoritarianism under the guise as, you know, when it is politically convenient. What a joke. It's also stupid. Like what possible world is this going to make a difference by having like a handful of gas stations in the Philadelphia area sell gas for a short period of time for a slightly cheaper than other parts of the like it is they are spitting in the ocean. Yeah. [55:24] There are tens of thousands of gas stations across the country. There is a saying when you work in the White House, it's like you want to get caught trying. There are problems you can't solve. They're too big. Congress won't work, but you want people to see you're trying. This isn't going to qualify as trying. They sent this video out saying they're doing this, and then – [55:40] in [55:42] So 99% of the rest of the country, people who see the video are then going to drive to the gas station and gas is going to be the same high price it was before. So you've just angered them because somehow then where you are not valuable enough to get one of these freedom fuel stations, you still have to pay. [55:56] The normal price. It's just so stupid. It's all dumb. [55:59] It's all done. I think it's honestly for Trump. Do you know what I mean? I think it's just a video that they can play for him when the baby gets angry. It's like one of those soothing, like it's one of those, you know, there are these little gummy toys you can give babies they can chew on when they're teething and they get angry. This is the sort of video version of that. You know what this is? This is Cocomelon for fascist idiots. That's exactly what it is. Okay. All right. One more consequence of the Iran situation we wanted to mention. Trump flew his new Qatari gifted Air Force One to Turkey.

[56:29] to leave, he announced that he was sending the jet onto an airbase in England to give American Station there a chance to tour the aircraft, and that, quote, for old time's sake, he'd be following in the old plane. [56:39] He was, of course, lying. The New York Times reported that the Secret Service urged him to take the old plane because it was more secure, and the new version doesn't have the same defensive capabilities. Alex, I thought the new Air Force One, which we paid hundreds of millions of dollars, we, the taxpayers, we had hundreds of millions of dollars to rush into service, we're [56:55] was totally safe and perfect. Are you shocked by this? Shocked, Dan. I did not realize that when Trump, first of all, he has two jets in rotation, and I believe there are two more under construction right now. So it's not like the entrance of this free Qatari jet did anything to help the American taxpayer or saved us any money. I direct you to John Lovett and Tommy Vitor's excellent YouTube conversation on this very topic, [57:25] Clearly, the jet is not up to snuff. Maybe they spent all the money on like warm nuts that are served right before right after takeoff or live flat seats or, you know, really fancy in-flight amenities like face mist. I don't know. But it wasn't on securing the jet the way it needs to be, because clearly they believe that there was some kind of national security threat flying out of Turkey.

[57:55] And the Kuttery jet did not have significant missile defense systems on it to keep everybody safe. So they had to fly the old baby blue Air Force One out of the threat zone. That's a problem. You don't want to have to have two jets in rotation because one isn't actually up to isn't isn't secure enough. Generally speaking, you want the president to be on the safe jet all the time. [58:15] Because like there's another version of this, right? Which is the Air Force won't exist the way it does. It's built the way it's built in the event because this idea came during the Cold War, which is – [58:27] There is a... [58:28] Nuclear war or some other war and the president has to stay in the air for hours and hours and hours to be able to fly anywhere in the world to get to safety and be able to command the US military forces from there. And so you can't like at any point he could be on the new jet. [58:43] And theoretically, something can happen in the world that could put him at risk. [58:49] But you're on the new jet. It's not just like it's not a commuter shuttle. [58:53] No. It's just – [58:55] It's like once again – and this whole thing is so dumb because – [58:59] He doesn't care about that because it's not that often that the president is actually targeted like this, obviously, or that he is within ballistic missile range of Iran. [59:13] Because he takes the jet with him when he leaves. [59:16] That's the thing. [59:17] This yet does not go to President Trump. [59:20] Josh Shapiro, AOC, Kamala Harris, whoever else comes next. [59:23] It goes to Donald Trump to fly around on as he visits golf clubs around the world. Fantastic. Trump Force One. Trump Force One. What a disaster. But what else? I mean, everything Trump touches turns to shit. So here we are. When we come back, North Carolina Senate candidate, former governor, Roy Cooper.

[59:48] Pod Save America is brought to you by Article. Article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup. Their curated collections of mid-century coastal and Scandi furniture are designed to mix and match perfectly so you can create a cohesive designer look. [1:00:00] that will stand the test of time. [1:00:02] Article stuff, it looks great. Some of it's simple and modern, so it'll fit with a lot of different design styles, but it just looks really good. Article offers fast, affordable shipping across the U.S. and Canada with options for professional assembly. If you prefer a hands-off experience, have a question or need help with your design choices, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support and even free interior design services to help you get your home just right. With Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. [1:00:32] you can invest in your home without hesitation. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com slash crooked, and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. That's article.com slash crooked for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. [1:00:50] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about.

[1:01:20] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. [1:01:39] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent, but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. [1:02:01] Joining me now is the Democratic nominee for one of the most important Senate races this cycle, former North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper. Governor Cooper, welcome back to Pod Save America. [1:02:10] I'm glad to be with you, Dan. Thanks a lot. It's been a while, so it's great to have you on here. [1:02:16] North Carolina, a state near and dear to my heart, has been breaking Democratic hearts for a long time. It's been since 2008, since the Democrat won a Senate seat there. Talk to me about why you believe 2026 is going to be different than all the other cycles that have emotionally traumatized so many Democrats around the country and in North Carolina, I assume. [1:02:36] Well, Dan, I've been having to convince people that we are having a tough race because people ask me what my biggest fear is and that a lot of people have put this race in the checkmark win column. And you and I know the history of North Carolina. Just because I have a lead in the polls doesn't mean this race isn't going to be very close. We've seen so many Democratic candidates have a lead, have a lead, have a lead until they don't.

[1:03:06] money pouring into this state at the end, and we see great Democratic candidates lose by a couple of points. And as you know, it's been 2008 since we've won a seat. Almost 40 years, we've only had two Democrats, and both of them served one term. So this is going to be a close race. I think this is [1:03:29] People are hurting now. I don't think I've seen it like this because I've been out on my make stuff cost less tour. People are telling me that there's just too much month at the end of the money for them. Their paychecks just are not keeping up with the cost of living and they are frustrated. And they recognize that Washington, D.C. is in chaos, that this president and administration promised them that day one, the cost of living would be on top of the list. [1:03:59] And not only has it not been, they've actively hurt people's chances in that we've seen these chaotic tariffs add cost to everything. We've seen this war in Iran increase costs. We've seen this one big, beautiful bill that ripped health care away from people and given the tax breaks to the billionaires. People are frustrated. [1:04:29] will put the people first, not the billionaires. And we know that my opponent, Michael Watley, will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say. And we know at the end of the day that a lot of money is going to come into North Carolina. But

[1:04:45] We're going to win this race because we have to. I told my children the other day that my parents left me a better country, that we had work to do to leave them a better country. I think all of us need to look within us and say, hey, what can I do to make sure that this country is the kind of country we want to leave to our kids and grandkids? And that's why I'm running for the Senate. You point out affordability is the number one issue in North Carolina. It's the number one issue all around the country. [1:05:15] basically since COVID, as inflation went up. As you mentioned, you're on this tour of North Carolina. Tell me a little about the tour. And can you give me a handful of specific ideas that you would do to help lower people's prices if elected? Well, the tour, I've been meeting people across North Carolina. We call it the Make Stuff Cost Less Tour. Very clear. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we hear from Kiwana, who's struggling to [1:05:40] pay for groceries, she's a teacher. We hear from Meredith, whose kid, Vivi's on Medicaid and Meredith's scared to death that Washington is going to attack and take away Vivi's health care. Pender's a farmer in rural North Carolina, the terrorists are killing him. So [1:05:58] In my policy proposals, you can go to RoyCooper.com and read our proposals on what we're proposing to do to make stuff cost less. You can also help us out. You can also volunteer. We need people to help us in this campaign. But first, you know, we've got to work with Republicans. And I believe there will be some who will be ready to work with us on taking back the legislative branch's constitutional authority here. Checks and balances are critical. So taking them back on trade and tariffs.

[1:06:28] And I think immediately that helps to reduce the cost of living. We've got to restore [1:06:34] the health care cuts that have really wreaked havoc on people's pocketbooks and people's lives, their health. We've got to make sure that we are investing in education across the board. I believe that when you look at all of the proposals that we have made, like a child care tax credit, because I'm hearing from people about child care going through the roof and they're having to make hard decisions about whether one parent's going to work. [1:07:04] We just need a Washington focused on people and not tax breaks for people. [1:07:10] the corporations. And I think that we can make a difference. A government that works can make a difference for people and help them have a paycheck that keeps up with the cost of living. There's been a lot of talk about groceries and gas, of course, and gas because of the Iran War, but is utility prices. And one of the things driving up utility prices is data centers. What would you do with data centers to either help lower the cost of electricity, slow the build, the build out of these? Like, how are you thinking about this sort of mad rush to build as many data [1:07:40] possible. [1:07:41] It's part of my policy proposals is that they must pay for their own energy. Other consumers should not have to bear any cost from data centers. And we should encourage them to create their own energy sources and connect them to the grid. And I think many of them are ready to step up and do that. Of course, communities have to have input as to whether these are built there or not.

[1:08:11] But I think that is critical because we now have a demand for power unlike anything we've ever seen. And we have a Congress and a president in Washington that has wiped away the gains that we made in clean energy that would have helped add energy to the grid. That's all been been wiped away during the last couple of years. So we have a real challenge on our head. And so I think they have to make sure that they pay for their own. [1:08:39] Your opponent, Michael Watley, is not particularly well known to a lot of people around the country. He's not sort of one of these, you know, MAGA bad guys like a Ken Paxton or a Herschel Walker or Dr. Oz in previous elections. I understand there's some debate about his North Carolina roots and that he failed to be able to name any members of your NHL Stanley Cup championship team down there. But what should voters either in North Carolina or around the country want to help your campaign know about Michael Watley? [1:09:08] and who he is and what he would do? Well, first, he's been a Washington, D.C. insider for years. He was a big oil and utility company lobbyist. He worked to be able to raise prices for oil companies and raise utility rates for utility companies. He still owns stock in those, [1:09:38] pushed there by

[1:09:41] President Trump. And we're seeing that he's able to line his own pockets by advocating and encouraging the Iran war, pushing this one big, beautiful bill. He owns pharma company stocks, and we know that those have gone up because of this one big, beautiful bill. He was also chair of the North Carolina Republican Party and recruited right wing candidates like Mark Robinson, [1:10:11] and behind Mark Robinson. He has lied about my record. You mentioned that he's been telling people that he grew up in Blowing Rock, North Carolina. In actuality, he moved to Blowing Rock [1:10:25] from Michigan when he was 15 years old. And I don't mind people coming into North Carolina. You don't have to have grown up North Carolina. People are full North Carolinians when they move here, but just don't lie about it. But he's lied about my record and particularly on crime. But then you look at his record on crime. He appointed a convicted judge, [1:10:50] child sex predator who served time in prison to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party and stood by him and reappointed him, even though the party debated this. And recently the party has come in and passed a resolution saying we aren't going to have sex predators appointed to positions of prominence anymore. He's also very recently stood by

[1:11:20] Trump's pardon of all of these J6 insurrectionists, including those who assaulted police officers, and including those who went on to commit other crimes, [1:11:32] Some against children for child sex crimes. That's the kind of record that Michael Whiteley has. And as I say, he will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say. [1:11:47] On the other hand, I will be a strong independent senator for North Carolina. I will put the people first. I will try to work with this president when I can. I did my first four years as governor. He was president at the same time. I tried to work with him. We had to go through COVID and other things. But I will stand up to him when I need to. And there needs to be a lot of standing up to him right now in Washington. I think the people of North Carolina are going to want that at the end of the day. [1:12:16] You mentioned the attacks on your record on crime. This is in a bunch of their ads. This seems to be their main strategy for trying to defeat you is that Mr. Painjew is weak on crime, weak on immigration. They are specifically focusing on some early releases that you granted in your time as governor. What is your response to those attacks? What's the true story here? Well, first, those stories, there are many lies being told in what they've done. [1:12:46] simply are not telling the truth. I'm the only person in this race who's actually prosecuted violent criminals and worked to keep them...

[1:12:56] behind bars while Michael Watley has appointed a child sex predator to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party. That's the difference between us on crime. People know my record as attorney general. They know that as governor, I signed tougher bail laws. They know, too, that I believe in working to prevent crime by investing in early childhood education and in our [1:13:26] communities. I think that's critical. But they believe this is a soft spot. It is not. And I think the people of North Carolina will hear that at the end of the day. [1:13:38] You know, immigration and crime are sort of tied together in Republican rhetoric these days. [1:13:44] task for a democratic senate will be or just a just new democratic senators is going to be trying to find ways to rein in what is happening with ice and what the trump administration's doing with ice we just had another person killed by ice recently how are you thinking about what you if you were elected senate what you would do with ice like what what how would you reform it restrain it what are you thinking well well first we need secure borders in this country and we should deport [1:14:14] This organization should be working to try and do that. But we also don't need what is happening now with people being picked up just because of what they look like. Often American citizens being put in danger.

[1:14:33] shot on the street. It seems to me reasonable that... [1:14:37] officers who work with ICE should have the same requirements that state, local, and federal law enforcement officers should have. And I think that that is something that we need to do, make sure that they have those same requirements. [1:14:53] As we mentioned, your opponent's the former chair of the RNC. A couple of weeks ago, the Supreme Court had a ruling which now will allow party committees like the RNC and the DNC to spend unlimited funds on behalf on races like yours. [1:15:11] I... [1:15:11] How does that ruling affect your race with your opponent being the former chair of the organization that can now spend unlimited money? [1:15:19] This is the worst campaign finance Supreme Court decision since Citizens United. It allows virtually unlimited spending from these joint committees when a candidate and a political party or like the Republican senatorial campaign committee come together. They don't have any limits as they used to have. [1:15:50] millionaires [1:15:50] of the corporations. And I think you're going to see a significant amount of money flowing into races all across the country using this new device. It may affect our race even more than others, being that Watley has been recently the chair of the Republican National Committee. He knows all the people there. He certainly has been talking about the fact that they're going to use the

[1:16:15] this new tool. We all need to come together and get a grip [1:16:21] on campaign finance in this country. We have to find a way to stop this madness. It's too much money. [1:16:31] In politics, I'll be first in line to find a way to overturn Citizens United. But until then, we cannot unilaterally disarm. This takes power away from small donors. And I hope small donors will stand up and say, we're not going to let this happen. We're going to give these candidates even more. RoyCooper.com is a great place to go. [1:17:01] because we need to have a strong voice for everyday people and this new decision just allows more money into the system. It leads to more corruption. We see open corruption in Washington right now. In fact, my opponent, as I mentioned, owns individual stock. I've [1:17:24] When I ran for governor, I sold all of my individual stock. I have widely held mutual funds. I'm doing that during the campaign. I will do that. [1:17:34] as a United States senator, regardless of what the law is, but I will work to pass a law that prohibits members of Congress and high executive officials from trading individual stocks. I'll support a law that stops allowing people to be lobbyists after they serve in Congress. We need to get people to trust Congress.

[1:18:00] the federal government again. And right now, people just don't. So we have to elect people, not only who will fight to change laws, we're seeing that we have a lot of people who want to change the laws, but nothing ever happens in Washington on this, but who will... [1:18:17] set examples. And that's what I want to do when I get there. And the way this money is going to come in, I hope it won't affect these elections, because I hope that people will step up and help these candidates. We've got to take back the House. We've got to take back the Senate. We've got to make sure that we come back to the Constitution that the framers intended, [1:18:47] who simply will not stand up [1:18:50] to the president. And you need to do that regardless of party. You need to do that. And the branches need to push against each other in order to make this great republic work. [1:19:02] I'll say this for you to make it easier, but the ruling means that the... [1:19:08] The RNC has a lot more money than the DNC. The NRC has more money than the DSCC. The Republicans have more money than the Democrats. [1:19:14] if we are going to, the only way we're going to stay competitive in these races is for people to go to websites like RoyCooper.com and push back. Because we can win with grassroots donations. We are not going to match them billionaire for billionaire. [1:19:27] So I just wanted to lay that out there. I would do that for you to make that pitch easier for you. You said it better than I. And I think you're right about that because we can't catch up. The DNC just simply can't catch up before November. So we're going to have to have help from everyday people out there.

[1:19:46] The Democratic Party is in a bit of transition these days, and we have Democratic Socialists winning in New York City and Colorado. We have progressive anti-establishment candidates winning here and there. We also have Roy Cooper's running in North Carolina and Sherrod Brown's running in Ohio. [1:20:05] Is there a tent big enough for the party these days? Like, how are you thinking about what's going on in the party today? [1:20:10] you're a two-term governing establishment figure, there's this anti-establishment... [1:20:15] sort of fervor going on? Like, how are you navigating all of this? Well, I understand why people are frustrated, because government often hasn't worked at the federal level, and people are mad. And so I get it. People are paying too much. Things are costing too much out there. And they're frustrated. They don't have health care. They can't afford a place to live. My goodness, they had one bipartisan thing that they did, the housing bill that just [1:20:45] But look, I can just tell you what we've done here. I was a Democratic governor for eight years. I had a Republican legislature for eight years. And yes, I vetoed a lot of bad legislation and we fought over a lot of things. But I found ways to work with them on recruiting good paying jobs to our state, to getting paid parental leave, to passing a law to get our power sector to carbon zero by 2050. And finally, I've been doing a lot of things. [1:21:14] got a Republican legislature in a southern state to expand Medicaid, which has made a real difference. And we did that by getting their constituents in these red rural counties to lobby them for it. Because when I would use my contacts with sheriffs in some of these counties, when I served as attorney general, and many of them would complain to me that essentially that a lot of people in their jail

[1:21:44] And so they understood that Medicaid expansion would bring more help to their county with medical services and would help keep their rural hospitals open. And when you have a tough on crime Republican sheriff walk in the halls lobbying for Medicaid expansion, it's very effective. And so we were able to work together together. [1:22:06] on a common goal to get health care. And these red rural counties have benefited really more than anybody else here. 730,000 people and counting now have health care in North Carolina. And there are ways to work together. We saw it on the housing bill in Washington. We've got to have more people who are willing to sit down at the table, even if they have disparate opinions when you when you. [1:22:34] Look at goals. Often our goals are shared, even if we are on opposite ends politically. We want a good education for our kids. We want a good paying job. We want clean air and water. We want quality health care. We all want the same things. And we have to be willing to sit down at the table and find ways forwards, find a way to achieve consensus. I did that as governor time [1:23:04] I want to do that in Washington. And I believe that [1:23:09] Washington could use a dose of North Carolina common sense. I'm ready to come and try and provide that, not only from a governor, attorney general perspective, a state legislator perspective, but I practiced law for 18 years and was a managing partner of my small firm for a while. I had to make a payroll. So I have a lot of background that I think I can use in helping

[1:23:39] because people just want government to work, and right now it's not. [1:23:43] Governor, I think it's a great place to end it. [1:23:45] Governor Cooper, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks, Dan. Appreciate it. All right. That's our show for today. Thanks, Roy Cooper. It was so fast. It was so fast. Sorry to cut you off. It's been an hour. We've been doing this for an hour. No, I mean, I just meant like we are emotional highs and lows. It was exceptional. It was important because it was our last Grand Plattener conversation ever. Oh, my God. Mark that on your calendars, people. I know. Seriously. Okay. That's our show for today. Thanks, Roy Cooper, for coming on. [1:24:15] We'll be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with Gary Lineker, host of The Rest is Football. [1:24:21] and legendary England striker to talk about the World Cup and the politics of soccer. [1:24:25] Talk to everyone soon. [1:24:26] Bye, everyone. [1:24:42] Thank you. [1:24:49] Thank you. [1:24:51] you [1:24:53] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond, or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no-bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about.

[1:25:23] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. Yeah, we've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. [1:25:41] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent, but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.